High End Luxury Cars

2001gs430 · December 2006

and many millionaires, 37 percent in 1996, bought used cars.

I've got a CPO GS. Is that close enough?

However,it will be a few more years before anyone would allow me in the MND club.

I wish I were one of these unhappy millionaires mentioned by people around here just so that I could verify what they are saying. :surprise:

hpowders · December 2006

It's no big deal. :shades:

garyh1 · December 2006

If that's the way the next S sedan is going to look, I'm a buyer! Note the non-Banglized rear, the wheel arches that actually fit into the design, the interesting but not garish surface treatments. In a word, GORGEOUS.

hpowders · December 2006

There aren't many places left for folks like you to hide in this Bangleized world.

Toyota and Lexus have shamelessly ripped off the gorgeous Bangle rear. Another of their predictable dabs into artistic plagiarism.

More and more car makers are paying tribute to the great Chris Bangle's genius.
BMW sales have gone through the roof since he came on board.

If it wasn't beautiful and a means to increase sales, Toyota/Lexus wouldn't have copied it.

Mercedes Benz will eventually come around too.

designman · December 2006

Yep, airflow coming out of those wheel arches. There's some Bentley in it. The current S should have looked like that.

merc1 · December 2006

What in the world?

You all like a Mercedes that I'm not crazy about!

I do like it from some angles, but not from others.

Designman, when Mercedes does a "Vision" or "Design Study" it is pretty much going to head into production, provided it gets the right amount of oohs and ahhs.

The 2000 CL was previewed this was as was the 1998 CLK so if the response is good this thing will wind up in a MB showroom in 18 months or less.

****Sigh****

M

merc1 · December 2006

This concept could turn out to be the CLC or some other class based on the S-Class like what the CLS is to the S-Class.

If they use the S600 as a starting point this is going to be a 160-180K car easily.

Grudgingly I will admit that it would provide Mercedes with something no other luxury car maker or any carmaker has today, a 4-door convertible. This could be huge for the image, but I still worry about having that much structure without a roof. To engineer this for the proper structural rigidity and safety is beyond tough.

M

syswei · December 2006

Well, it's still guaranteed to be "the very safest luxury 4-door convertible in the world". Maybe they can put that in the commercials.

dewey · December 2006

Merc,

this S Class cabrio is a beaut! Nobody in this forum has negative feelings about this car except you and only you.

The current S Class proves that quality and safety is a top priority for MB. Do you honestly think MB will rush out with a cabrio that may be prone to have safety issues? Imagine the damage that would do to the image of MB?
I think MB does know what they are doing (well at least let us cross our fingers).

Just like the CLS I think the S Class cabrio will have some imitators. Who knows maybe we will see a future A8 cabrio, BMW 7 series cabrio and a Lexus LS cabrio? Although I am not willing to make a bet on that yet

dewey · December 2006

Isn't S2000 RWD? and probably better handling than any HELC.

Yes but I cant reconfigure my family to fit into such a car. I need a sedan or wagon.

dewey · December 2006

What's wrong with platform-sharing, other than the loss of exclusivity?

If I had a choice between a Toyota Camry and a Lexus ES, I would pick a Camry.
Exclusivity in terms of bling does not excite me. Exclusivity in terms of how a platform is engineered does excite me.

Kirstie_H · December 2006

Dewey, that is very selfish thinking of you during this holiday season of giving :P

dewey · December 2006

Appreciate your politically correct holiday greetings.

And thanks for the reminder: I did not hang up my Menorahs, Crescents and battery-powered Laughing Buddhas on my Christmas Tree yet, oops sorry I meant Holiday Tree. :P

And I also want to wish you and your family an all-inclusive religious or non-religious holiday season.

brightness04 · December 2006

Of course I know what "down payment" is, in a legal sense.

However, if you grind through the numbers, you realize that $2500 represents 7-8% of MSRP, which is more or less exactly what you can negotiate off MSRP nowadays on these cars. Since the mfr can not suggest a lower price without undermining the concept of MSRP, that's how the mfrs (including BMW, following in the steps of quite a few other experienced mfr-lease companies) have been advertising lease deals; as a way of indicating price reduction is available, with resulting monthly payment estimated in the advertisement. Ads by dealers are a completely different story; like you said, down payment advertised by dealers is a way of reducing monthly payment.

When the "down payment" is fulfilled by "dealer contribution" / discounting from MSRP, obviously you are not out of anything in case the car is totalled.

hpowders · December 2006

If my only choice was between a Toyota Camry and a Lexus ES, I would vie for the needle.

In case I have never expressed my feelings here, I consider the Camry and its fancier guise, the ES, to be among the most boring cars to drive on the planet.
The steering mechanism has been shot with novocaine in those 2 vehicles.

hpowders · December 2006

The point is if you accept those posted lease deals by BMWFS, you are accepting MSRP. To get $2500 off, you must open your mouth and negotiate.

houdini1 · December 2006

Well, how was the left footwell space and did the console touch your right leg? Also, did you wear a Groucho disguise while driving? :shades:

hpowders · December 2006

You can call me nuts but for me the new ES is the best looking Lexus car, even nicer than the GS350. Especially in red. Must be those beautiful Bangle tail lights! Now where have I seen them before?....uhhh....yes, my 545i! Heh! Heh! Heh!

Ah yes, Groucho. I do miss those days. You bet your life! :shades:

syswei · December 2006

source Automotive News:

Audi of America Inc. has selected Venables, Bell & Partners, of San Francisco, as its new advertising agency to handle the German brand's U.S. account, which spends an estimated $70 million annually.

Audi began a review of its agency business four months ago after the arrival of Scott Keogh, a former Mercedes-Benz executive, as the new chief marketing officer. Its previous agency, McKinney & Silver, of Raleigh, N.C., had the account for 11 years.

Keogh says Audi selected Venables, Bell & Partners because "they clearly laid out for us the opportunity that exists for Audi in the United States."

Keogh says much of the advertising will be Web and community-based, an approach that Audi needs because of the massive spending by its bigger competitors: "If you are fighting someone with an eight-foot spear, you don't want to use a four-foot spear but a stone."

Keogh says transitional work with the new agency begins immediately. Consumers won't see the new campaigns until the replacement TT car is launched in April.

dewey · December 2006

Some British humour from The British Sunday Times on how Lexus LS gadgets can be considered an assualt on male virility. :

SOURCE: THE SUNDAY TIMES

1) As you approach your destination does your heart sink at the thought of having to try and park while it seems the world and his wife are watching? Relax, a solution is at hand: a car that parks itself.
No more of that backwards, forwards, wheel twirling, will-it-wont-it embarrassment of trying to fit a car into a space that the driver behind can clearly see is six inches too short  because the remarkable new Lexus LS 460 is the perfect parker.

Unfortunately, there is a very serious downside to all this that is not mentioned in the Lexus Wonder Book of Cleverness. As all the world knows  at least if you are a male  judging parking gaps and demonstrating utter precision in vehicle positioning with a cool, nonchalant confidence is one of the enduring actions that demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that men are superior to women. This Lexus could make males almost redundant.

2) There is worse from this wretched Lexus. If it senses that you are drifting out of your lane on the motorway (no male ever does this, of course) it has the temerity not only to utter a derisory beeping sound but even give a bit of a tug on the steering.

3)As if that were not enough, this computer-dominated wheeled wonder also has a Big Brother mode. It works like this: you move your head to one side for a better squint at something interesting . . . just as, 25 metres ahead, a cyclist topples, a pedestrian steps into the road or a car emerges from a side street. But an infra-red camera has its eye on you, alerts the cars systems to the fact that there is a halfwit at the wheel; an alert sounds, a red light flashes and the brakes are applied briefly to get your attention. If you are slow to react, the cars Pre-Crash Safety system goes into action with emergency braking. Phew

merc1 · December 2006

Yeah thats right Dewey rub it in!

I know they'll engineer it right, but at what cost. I don't want attention taken away from the 08' C-Class, a much more critical product.

M

hpowders · December 2006

Well, Dewey, the highly macho Infiniti M45 Sport has a lane-warning system. I don't believe it would deter me from driving it-the only Japanese car I would actually drive, by the way.
But as long as Chris Bangle continues to turn out his BMW masterpieces, it's BMW all the way! :shades:

designman · December 2006

Merc, there are stretch limos that can almost fit football teams. This is no special engineering feat. They'll beef up the chassis, it'll come out weighing 6000 lbs and voila, ya got a luxury liner.

brightness04 · December 2006

Read the details. These lease deals show what residual and money factors are available. What you can get off MSRP is between you and the dealer. It borders on idiotic for anyone to accept MSRP nowadays.

dewey · December 2006

As far as I can recall what triggered our speculations about a S Class cabrio many months ago were rumours about a Chrysler 300C Hemi sedan Cabrio for 2009.

MB's huge amount of effort and money involved to develop a cabrio sedan for only one S Class model does not make much financial sense at all. IMO there is a very good likelihood that MB will spread its S Class cabrio know-how to other sedans among its MB and Chrysler line-up.

Cabrio versions of a Maybach, and a Hemi 300C are possibilities.

hpowders · December 2006

I am comfortable at $1000 over invoice with BMW's (usually $3000-$4000 under MSRP).

I time my leases to begin in mid-summer-just the time when dealers are getting antsy about moving out the current inventory, since the next year's models are just around the corner. Hence, when I negotiate, I am always dealing from strength.

Too bad I have no interest in the BMW 7. It would be fun to see how low I could get those guys to go on that slow seller.
Probably invoice or lower.

dewey · December 2006

It was a silly and useless LS review from a British newspaper that was meant to be funny but ended up not being funny. It was more Benny Hill than Monty Python. :lemon:

hpowders · December 2006

Well I can certainly understand many of these HEL vehicles being written about in a "satirical" less than flattering way.

A car that can park itself. How many speakers is enough?
10? 14? 27? Artificial electronic steering and brakes. iDrive. Seats that could come right out of your den.

When I rent a car at the airport, I always marvel at how the non-HELC's are so refreshingly simple to operate: Push a button to change a radio station. Basic, accurate brakes and steering. :shades:

hpowders · December 2006

The Lexus GS450h and 9 other vehicles were tested for braking competency. The Lexus came in 8 out of 10 and the brakes were described as "poor." The brake pedal was described as "lifeless and offered no feedback."

The winner was the Audi Q7.

Source: Auto Motor Und Sport

Fully loaded the GS450h comes in at around MSRP $66,000.

I know! I know! It is sooooo reliable! :shades:

syswei · December 2006

What cars were 9th and 10th?

hpowders · December 2006

Source: Auto Motor Und Sport braking test:

1.Audi Q7 4.2 FSI :shades:
2.Toyota Yaris 1.3
3.VW EOS 2.0 TFSI
4.Peugeot 207 110 Sport
5.Mercedes E220 CDI
6.Ford S-MAX 2.0 TDCI
7.Fiat Grande Punto 1.9 JTD Sport
8.Lexus GS450h
9.Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 CRDI
10. Chevrolet Captiva :lemon:

Guess it shows conventional vehicles have better braking than diesels/hybrids. (The Q7 and Yaris are conventional vehicles).

Lucky for us, the Captiva is not for sale in the USA!

LOL!

brightness04 · December 2006

Yup, that's good timing. Unfortunately, I live in one of the states that caculates excise tax based on MSRP (90% of MSRP in the model year, 60% the year after, as tax base), so getting cars at the end of the year is advantageous from taxation reasons; and my driving pattern is very lopsided, with heavy usage in the summer, and not much driving in winter. So that kinda puts on crimp on getting cars in August.

$3-4000 under MSRP is very much in-line with the hypothetical "down payment" in the BMWUSA advertised lease deals: they are caculated based on MSRP and $2500 down for 3 and 5 series, $3500 down for 7 series. So, like I said, these "down payments" in the assumption are basicly what an average consumer can negotiate off MSRP. Remember, the lease cars have options besides the base car; the MSRP used in the caculation include the options at MSRP. The savvy consumer can probably get even better deals.

hpowders · December 2006

Thanks to the emergence of the internet, there is really no excuse for anyone not to be able to get a decent leasing deal.

syswei · December 2006

Guess it shows conventional vehicles have better braking than diesels/hybrids.

Hybrids have regenerative braking systems so I guess performance or lack thereof could possibly be endemic to that technology. I don't see how a diesel powertrain rather than conventional gas engine would impact braking, though. Maybe that apparent relationship is coincidental.

hpowders · December 2006

I hope it is just coincidence because even though I have my heart set on a 335i coupe, I do want to experience any BMW diesels that appear within the next 12 months.

brightness04 · December 2006

Very true. By "savvy consumers" I mean those who can get leases at lower monthly payment than those advertised by mfr and on top of that without paying the "down payment" at all. That perhaps does require timing, like you said, in addition to standard negotiation skills. That seems to be quite realistic, since those advertised numbers are based on $2500-3500 discount/down-payment from MSRP, and a savvy consumer like yourself can get $3000-4000 below MSRP.

brightness04 · December 2006

How much does the heavier diesel engien impact weight and weight distribution? Is it significant enough to affect braking?

syswei · December 2006

Hadn't thought of that...stupid me didn't know diesel engines are heavier.

dewey · December 2006

This may happen to be the best car deal of the century for anyone who wants more bling in their lives

A 2005 Maybach 62 with only 11K miles listed for a trifling $152K (mind you it will need some cosmetic touch ups) ! If you are a hardball negotiator you may be able to bring down the price to $130K.

Here is the link for the very lucky ones who are sincerely interested in this very exclusive and elite lux sedan:

BEST CAR DEAL EVER!

brightness04 · December 2006

Hahaha, good catch. I wonder what the criteria the insurance company uses for "totaling" a car like that :-) I mean, $120k (1/3 the cost of the car) can buy a lot of body fillings and elbow wax :-) What does MB charge for a replacement bumper for Maybach? ;-)

BTW, that's quite a severe impact to have the body shoterned by several inches (estimating from the way the hood is curling up; I had an accident similar to that, but from a side impact in one of my BMW's years ago). Looks like Maybach workmanship is not very good either, if the airbags failed to deploy in an accident like that.

hpowders · December 2006

Yeah! You should have known that! What is Edmunds paying you the big bucks for?

hpowders · December 2006

What a nerve! $125k would be my absolute limit.

Wonder if Tagman takes personal checks? :confuse:

blkhemi · December 2006

"Looks like Maybach workmanship is not very good either, if the airbags failed to deploy in an accident like that"

You'd think that with the way the car is all mangled on the front passenger side, all of the bags(not just the curtain) would've deployed.

But click the link at take look at the interior shot. Not even so much as a ripple. Everything is still in tact, including all side glass.

I think it's just the opposite. For the car to absorb that much energy and yet leave the occupants in tacts shows that build quality is legendary Benz, both in safety and construction.

ctl · December 2006

I drive a 1997 camry v6, bought new. Which right now I can buy more than 300 of them... but I don't have 7 digits income, my money comes from saving and investing. It just make so much more sense to me right now for money to grow instead of spending them away.

Maybe I will change when I can afford 1000 of them? or until I have a midlife crisis? or, I hope I can stay relatively care free of what I drive.

And yes I do like cars, sport cars. But if I want sport, I can get on a tennis court. Not racetrack, motor sport is no sport to me. And definitely not on the street, it is more ego stroke than anything else.

hpowders · December 2006

I guess we agree to be different.

When you want sport, you find it on the tennis court.

When I want sport, I drive my 545i.

Whatever makes you happy!

I'm sure you are a much better tennis player than I can ever hope to be.

brightness04 · December 2006

Passenger safety cage is pretty much a standard feature on modern cars. It would take far more than half a foot compression in the front to make any real deformation inside the cabin even for a passable family car nowadays. We are not talking about the Yugo from 1984 here.

What's troubling is that the aibag was not deployed despite significant deformation in the front. Something must have gone wrong with the airbag sensor.

dewey · December 2006

Did these non-sobre German journalists compare these cars during Oktoberfest?

Can you imagine these testers having a comparison discussion in a Edmunds forum? In the Audi Q7 forum they would be discussing the Toyota Yaris. In the MB E Class forum they would be discussing a Chevrolet (Daewoo) SUV. In the Lexus GS hybrid forum they would be discussing the Hyundai Santa Fe?

These guys are so nuts that I think they would be barred from entry into any Edmunds forum site. If only these testers were sobre I think they would have something interesting to say.

1.Audi Q7 4.2 FSI
2.Toyota Yaris 1.3
3.VW EOS 2.0 TFSI
4.Peugeot 207 110 Sport
5.Mercedes E220 CDI
6.Ford S-MAX 2.0 TDCI
7.Fiat Grande Punto 1.9 JTD Sport
8.Lexus GS450h
9.Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 CRDI
10. Chevrolet Captiva

merc1 · December 2006

But click the link at take look at the interior shot. Not even so much as a ripple. Everything is still in tact, including all side glass.

I think it's just the opposite. For the car to absorb that much energy and yet leave the occupants in tacts shows that build quality is legendary Benz, both in safety and construction.

Thank You. My gawd, any and everything Benz has to have some type of defect. We can clearly see that damage to the front end wasn't minor, but it wasn't nearly anything major either. The hood did exactly what it designed to do, crumple/fold in a pre-determined manner and absorb the energy from the impact. It takes a pretty hard whack to get an airbag to go off nowadays anyway, and a 6000lb Maybach isn't the type of car that would need an airbag to go off in such an impact, the sheer mass and the crumple zones took the brunt of that and worked perfectly. Airbags don't fire and aren't triggered by the amount of damage. They're triggered by the rate deceleration and looking at thos pics it is clear that the car didn't hit a wall or tree, i.e. something stationary that would trigger enough decelerative force to fire and airbag.

M

merc1 · December 2006

I'm thinking this concept can work if:

1. Designate it as a new model series, CLC etc. Make it what the CLS is to the E-Class. Offer both a 600 and "65" AMG version, only V12s and no more than 170-210K for the 600 and 65 models respectively. A "550" version can come later, volume model when the high-end sales cool off.

2. Get the structural rigidity right, a daunting task IMO.

3. Tone it doesn some for production, but don't and I repeat don't make it just a S600 minus the top. It should keep some of the different styling elements and have different body panels and grille from the S-Class. Interior should be somewhat different too, again like the CLS is compared to the E-Class.

M

dewey · December 2006

When I want sport, I drive my 545i.

And sport performance is likely to be spruced up in future years. Especially among BMWs and maybe even larger HELCs?

Why? The tuner crowd is aging. And as these boy racers age and they earn more money they will be more interested in tuning BMWs than Hondas. The BMW 335i is likely to get the attention of the more seasoned tuner crowd. And who knows maybe as the tuner crowd gets even older and richer in future years their attention may focus on twin turbo versions of HELCs.

SOURCE: link title

BMW's new 335i adds touches that may draw the speed-minded 'tuner' crowd.
Yes, that would be those youthful drivers who think the only thing sweeter than a buzzing 4-inch exhaust tip is the sound of a chattering turbocharger, whose Honda Civics sport wings larger than a HondaJet airplane.

If the thought of these punks rolling along in Bimmers seems odd, consider that according to the Specialty Equipment Market Association, which represents makers of auto add-ons, the tuner crowd generated $5.04 billion in U.S. retail sales last year. Clearly, these kids merit their reputation for sinking every last bit of disposable income into their cars. But it's been over a decade since the tuner scene got its start in Southern California, so many of them are now well into their 30s and hold down jobs that pay more than delivering pizzas.

BMW may not admit to actively courting this market, but it can't pretend it isn't aware of the import tuners. No one in the car business underestimates them as style mavens or doubts their influence on automotive trends. (It wasn't an auto maker that decided that big, 18-inch wheels look cool.) And even if the Germans didn't hold a marketing clinic for tuners to ponder the direction of the new 3-Series coupe, the results speak for themselves.

Exhibit A is that the top-of-the-line 3-Series now has a turbocharged engine. Tuners like turbos because they can dramatically boost horsepower, and the 335i has not just one but two of them. They help launch the car like a weapon snapped from a catapult. The 3.0-liter in-line six-cylinder engine puts out an impressive 300 horsepower, but what's really amazing is its peak torque output of 300 pound-feet occurs when the engine is revving as low as 1,400 rpm. This makes for brutal acceleration at any speed, and rewards a medieval driving style in which every car on the road is fair game for passing.

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