High End Luxury Cars

tagman · January 2007

I think you need to see an 07 MDX in person. In pictures, faux wood looks like wood. In person, it looks like the plastic that it really is.

Hey, syswei... absolutley no disagreement there. The real point was quite simply that overall the RX interior is no big leap over the rest of them by any significant measure, and on the other hand to say that Acura has never done a good job on any interior is too extreme. They are both in that quasi-mid-line arena that boasts a fair amount of positive attributes, but also compromises when compared to the upper line models.

TagMan

drfill · January 2007

Concise. And accurate. I like that!

If I slip up, you just let me know. K?

And I like Acura interiors! :shades:

It's thur exteriors that bite the bust! :sick:

I think they are officially the ugliest lineup in the business!

DrFill

tagman · January 2007

And I like Acura interiors!

It's thur exteriors that bite the bust!

WOW! Is this REALLY the Doc, or an imposter?

Personally, I also think Acura'a interiors are fine and essentially par with the price category they are in. Regarding the exteriors, I'm neutral, although my wife has the '06 MDX, and after seeing the '07 I am glad... I don't like the '07. Anyway, she's been mentioning the X5 lately. I had originally thought to gently persuade a little towards the upcoming Mercedes GL "vision" 8-cylinder diesel, but it's really her call, and if she can't wait that long, then it could be her first ownership experience with your favorite iDrive.

TagMan

reality2 · January 2007

hmm. Super luxury Horch was founded in around 1899. Audi in 1904 (same company) all luxury pedigrees. An A3 for $20,000...where? I love to get one at that price. It starts at $26,000 minimum. An A4 for $30,000. Where, would grab one at that price right away. The brand spanking new IS sold around 55,000 units, while the 5 year old A4 sold 50,000 units in the US in 2006. Not bad for an old lady.

dhamilton · January 2007

concede a slight edge in interior quality, but ride quality is down to the new MDX. The RX is a dinasour.

BMW has done a masterful job of out Lexusing Lexus, and still BMW'ing on the new X5.

The MDX takes ride quality and handling almost there. The Lexus has
1. A nicer interior?
2. Better secondary controls?
3. A dinasour ride, with a princely ransom = OVER RATED.

PS what could be easier than voice commands. Easier than taking your hands, and eyes off the wheel, and road to make adjustments, that's for sure.

blkhemi · January 2007

So now we're back to "what C&D says is golden" again?

Just checkin as this is the same mag(with a slew of others) that have just slammed the LS right on it's bouncy springs.

BTW: This is the same mag that also said on the short take when the S8 was new "that it is the purest sport sedan in it's segment and well worth the premium over the A8". How's that for change of views?

blkhemi · January 2007

You know Doc, I respect you for sticking to your guns. No matter how pointless and untrue they are, you never waver from them.

But to say you have no respect for Audi? The very brand that has a 4 year vehicle that handed the LS golden "L" to it on a silver platter?

And I do question your credibility when you say in '89 that you knew Lexus would dominate.

Gee, you saw something that Toyota couldn't even see as they didn't think it would work as good as it has(in the US of course, elsewhere, it's a diseaster), and it was nothing more than a response to the '80's addition of Acura and Infiniti.

dhamilton · January 2007

You are really at odds with yourself.

1. You really love sticks, but you love a company that's allergic to em.

2. The company's that do sedan sticks the best [Audi/BMW] you hate because of I drive, and you just hate, which has 0 to do with the driving experience. [order without it]

3. While trying to convince us of being an enthusiast, you constantly refer back to that good time you had in the SC430.

I gotta give credit where credit is due. Trying to figure out where your comin from is like trying to catch a greased up strain of VD. Easy, and itchy all at the same time.

tagman · January 2007

dhamilton,
Rest assured of one huge kudo that Acura (and Honda) richly deserve... one of the very best navigation systems at ANY price. Combining the voice-command and the touchscreen with what is one of the absolute best user-friendly interfaces around, as well as very good graphics... well, it all makes for a superior top-notch NAV system, that's for sure.

BTW, with regards to the voice-command portion of the system, IBM, who had the leading technology in this field, worked closely with Acura on this system years before its release and they deserve a lot of the credit as well.

TagMan

drfill · January 2007

Two Tings!

First Ting: I'm a complicated guy. Not easily knocked out, or easily killed. This brings respect, confusion, and a little jealousy among the ranks. Not entirely unintentional...

Lexus' misses the boat on sticks, but they nail most everything else. But even they are not perfect.

But the PURSUIT continues.....

And my #2: Don't hate me 'cus I'm beautiful!

I'm world-renowned for having fun in many places, doing many things, with many different people. The SC430 is a very successful car, with a great interior, and an underrated chassis, considering it is usually pitted against some of the best performing machines in the world. It's no slouch, is all I can say, despite what is put over in these forums.

DrFill

tagman · January 2007

OK, Doc, fess up... Jack Daniels or Johnny Walker?

TagMan

drfill · January 2007

And I do question your credibility when you say in '89 that you knew Lexus would dominate.

You'll have to point out to me where I said that.

I knew Lexus was onto something big, but I couldn't fathom a new company gaining such acceptance, dominance really, so quickly! Just goes to show how far off the Audis, Mercedes, BMWs, Cadillacs were, and in some cases, still are.

Lexus' plan isn't necessarily brilliant. And they aren't trying to build $30k Ferraris.

They certainly hit it where they ain't, if you will. They just execute. With stunning accuracy.

Maybe they aren't building Ferraris. But they can fry a stake like a Texan! And I like steak!

Kinda makes you wonder what Cadillac has been doing all this time? :confuse:

BTW, congrats to Lexus on winning the 24 Hours at Daytona! :shades: Tru players!

DrFill

designman · January 2007

Chirp! ;-)

But they can fry a stake like a Texan!

Doc, I can't imagine longhorns on the grille of an LS.

tagman · January 2007

It's not that complicated.

At that point in history, the Japanese had so well established themselves, mostly in the economy area and a notch above, as well as sports cars. Their reputation was almost too-good-to-be-true... spectacular in the eyes of Americans who had been through too many letdowns with the domestics, as well as having been through the energy crisis.

The U.S. market was literally over-ripe for the Japanese to move into the higher end luxury arena. But cautiously. The secret was to introduce these cars at bargain prices... and boy did they do that. They literally "dumped" 'em.

The Lexus vehicles were unbelievable bargains compared to their German counterparts. It was all the rage to get so much dependable luxury for such a bargain. After enough years of that, the prices could start to climb and the models could be expanded, but even until now, many of them are still gussied-up Toyotas.

Brilliant? Yes, for recognizing the Grand Canyon of potential sales. Brilliant? Yes, for marketing these fancy Toyotas at bargain prices and advertising them as though they were equivalent to their German competitors.

TagMan

drfill · January 2007

Then you haven't seen the 2011 Coach Edition, my friend!

I'm under contract not to post pics until May 2010...

DrFill

drfill · January 2007

Dang, and you were actually getting it, for a little while! :sick:

I expect that spin from Hemi and Merc, not from you Tag :confuse:

Now for The Real.

Acura was 5 years old, selling well, but cautiously, and not really challenging the establishment (Caddy/Benz/BMW), because they don't build V8s (still?), and wanted to play it safe (still?).

Lexus and Infiniti (Toyota and Nissan) both had higher aspirations, starting in 1983 at Toyota. They saw two things. One, that the luxury market was.....soft, and in need of a fresh approach, to say the least, with a good size hole in the $30-50k range. And two, the luxury cars of the time weren't any great shakes to begin with!

So Infiniti attacks with a sporting approach, ala BMW, and Lexus targets Mercedes.

A tarted-up Camry, and a slightly different Mercedes S-class looked like a Kia Amanti at the time. And NO ONE thought it would be worth a damn!

But then you sit in the car, turn it on, check the engine specs, see the commercials, check the performance, and then test the thing, and it's like the luxury car is borne again!

The Infiniti Q45 is great, also! But the LS had "it".

The "it" was history.

History was made because the LS made "it" happen! Timing, price, market, marketing were all factors. But it all came down to execution and market analysis. And no one does it better. It's one thing to say you're the stuff. It's another to prove it.

No one handed Lexus a title belt. The luxury class was there to be had, and Toyota took it, and keeps taking, yet giving.

Isn't that nice?

And the Lexus LS in 1989 wasn't some "fancy Toyota". It was the greatest car Toyota ever built, could ever build. Other companies couldn't build it either! So Toyota just applied the winning formula, the secret sauce, the magic dust, if you will, to other Lexus/Toyota models, and....well....here we are. Voila!

If only Cadillac (or Audi) were so adept, not inept?

Now they are left with whatever market Lexus doesn't want. Sloppy seconds.

Oh well..

DrFill

brightness04 · January 2007

Just saw this article on Car and Driver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12348/first-drive-2008-bmw-335i-convertible- .html

Let me get this straight, this new ZF 6sp auto is about as quick as SMG, which as we know is quicker than traditional manual. hmm . . ., perhaps Lexus (and MB) got it right in not taking the SMG detour, given how quickly (pun intended) auto tranny technology is advancing nowadays.

drfill · January 2007

Who asked for a "quicker manual"?

What's dat all about? :mad:

The manual is not the problem. Women doing make-up on the 405......

DrFill

lexusguy · January 2007

Bad.

Horrible.

Did they have GM do this one?

I'm stunned, its worse than the last one.

No, its not a Honda Civic.

Also not a Civic.

And the award for worst fake wood ever in a luxury car goes to..

The runner-up for worst fake wood ever, also winner of the least cohesive, most slapstick interior design category.

Life time achievement\crime against humanity award winner.

All it needs is a dancing EQ and big speakers that say "SUPER BASS"

I stand by my statement. Acura's interior guys are, and have always been, hacks. The current TL is the best job they've ever done, and that is very sad.

tagman · January 2007

And the Lexus LS in 1989 wasn't some "fancy Toyota".

I expect that spin from Hemi and Merc, not from you Tag

Doc, Read my post carefully. This is no spin... Here is what I said...

"The Lexus vehicles were unbelievable bargains compared to their German counterparts. It was all the rage to get so much dependable luxury for such a bargain. After enough years of that, the prices could start to climb and the models could be expanded, but even until now, many of them are still gussied-up Toyotas."

What is not true about that? C,mon, now... be real with me... what is not true with that? :confuse:

TagMan

gshocksv · January 2007

"Perhaps you should move yourself to a land where people are not as manipulated by marketing as in the US!

The biggest the crock that has ever been pulled on humankind is the product called Mercedes! How people will flock to it just because of the 3-pointed star. It wasn't long ago when I walked into a Benz dealer and I pointedly asked the dealer why I should buy a MB over a Acura, Lexus, or BMW. His one and ONLY response....."because it's a mercedes". That says it all! See, now that's manipulation! Oh but I guess the average american is just stupid and you must be the only one that is above manipulation by the media! or is it that you're the one being manipulated by intangibles like the false prestige of a 3-pointed star on the end of the hood or trying to cram down everyone's throat that they should be buying a BMW because handling & performance is all that matters? It seems more like the manipulation is being done on you."

Maxhonda,

This is too well said.... I am an owner of a 2007 E350, and I myself am a victim of this Mercedes manipulation, or actually, the people around me. I like some Mercedes models, but I sure am not crazy on a lot of them. I usually like something more unique and different, and that's why I used to drive a Jaguar S-Type (still drive it actually). Unlike Mercedes, which in Orange County, everyone's cousin and his brother pretty much has one, Jaguar is not all over the streets. You might want to ask why I then decided to get an E350, the reason is because most people think Mercedes is a high end car, and being one of the top employees of the company that I work for, my boss naturally thinks I should drive a Mercedes.

Before I got the E350, I wanted to get an Audi A6, so I asked my sister's opinion. Her reaction after I told her the Audi was going to be around $50,000, she told me for that kind of money I might as well get a Mercedes. Now, my sister doesn't know much about cars, but she knows Mercedes is suppose to be an expensive car... that much she knows.

In addition, being a single guy, my friends all think I should get a Mercedes because the car will impress the ladies more (I do to like to go the bars at Hollywood). Frankly, I do like the E350, I like the ride, and comfort, but I don't know if it's any better than the Audi A6, Infinti M35, or the Lexus GS, and I sure don't think it should have such premium over the other cars. One thing it does better however, is everyone knows Mercedes. Whether it's a loaded one with all the high tech gizmos, or a stripped one with a $10,000 rebate, a lot of people will think of Mercedes as a more expensive car than its competitors.

Mercedes has done a wonderful job with the marketing, which reminds me of how DeBeer created the tradition of buying diamonds for women. You wish you had a choice, but your gf will want a diamond no matter what.

tagman · January 2007

Let's look at what LEXUS has had to offer over the years, shall we?.....

Just look at this Lexus center console...

And isn't this impressive?

Enough plastic anyone?...

A Lexus interior at its best...

Another beauty of a Lexus interior...

Just love that Lexus color combination, eh?...

What a wonderful Lexus steering wheel...

One of my favorites... shot out of a shotgun is this monstrosity from Lexus...

Well, lg, you sure made your point... Lexus interiors over the years are certainly nothing like those Acura interiors...
:sick:

TagMan

lexusguy · January 2007

Whats wrong with that late '90s ES300? It certainly blows the doors off the TL 3.2 and the Infiniti I30. The GS300\400 wasn't amazing on the inside, but that wood is real, and it beat the pants off the first gen RL, both as a car and in terms of interior design. Same for that late '90s RX. You may not like the design, but the wood's real. The late '90s RX300 sans NAV was not a great effort overall from Lexus. If all you can come up with is two cars though, I'm not impressed.

EVERY Acura is bad.

lexusguy · January 2007

Please show me "Acura's greatest hits" Tag, I'm dying to see that.

syswei · January 2007

I'll second what lexusguy said. The wood in every one of your Lexus pics is real.

syswei · January 2007

Enjoyed reading your post.

ggesq · January 2007

I'll take fake wood over a boring motoring experience, thanks.

designman · January 2007

I've wondered about the collectibility of the Veyron, too. As expensive as it is, I think it's value will go south like senior Ohioans headed to Florida for the winter, deep and fast.

Hmm, not sure about that after a '71 Hemi Cuda got 2.2 mil at auction. Veyron brings some serious numbers to the table starting with only 300 being made and being sold at a loss to the company. The price, expensive as it seems, belies the cost to build. Also, we are getting close to the point where certain speed numbers can no longer be broken unless Scotty can beam us up. I'm guessing we'll see it way up there in the auction hit parade down the road.

houdini1 · January 2007

Nope, you asked for it so I gave it to ya. Enjoy!

designman · January 2007

Lexusguy, I notice you put a lot of weight into quality of materials with regard to interior design which to a fine and to be expected with luxury cars. But I always consider the design of the layout first and would rather have an interior that has an aesthetic and fluid sense to it. Wood alone and top shelf materials mean nothing to me if it is not sculpted nicely. You make good points about Acura but Lexus interiors are hardly paradigms, very far from it IMO. For the most part I think they are incongruous and disproportionate, not shapely at all.

houdini1 · January 2007

Boring? Are we talking about cars here or dinner companions?

Anyone who is so easily bored should maybe be considering some professional help. Also, people who should know always say that people who are easily bored are usually very boring themselves. I would certainly second that opinion. Even moderately intelligent people are seldom bored.

drfill · January 2007

And "manipulation" of the consumer. Marketing is selling an idea, a perception. Whether it's cars, girls, tv shows, whatever.

Mercedes is kinda beyond marketing, at this point. It is a known quantity, and doesn't need to be "sold" to anyone, per se. If you are looking for a luxury car, you will most likely find a Mercedes on your list of test drives.

Marketing can be deceiving, very deceiving, but if you are building a business on that angle, you won't be in business for long. You do have to deliver on your message if you are in it for the long haul.

Great marketing gets you traffic. Great vehicles get you sales, short and long-term customers. Loyal customers.

US consumers NEED great marketing because there are so many options to choose from. A company needs a strong, effective message to stand out. We need to be inspired, especially with a newer company.

Marketing sizzles, steak sells, and here we go.

Marketing is not manipulation. It is inspiration, if done well. People want to be inspired.

Lexus commercials, especially from 1989, inspired. Mercedes and BMW' legacy, their heritage, inspire.

That's the difference between buying a Buick and a top-flite luxury car. Inspiration.

DrFill

lexusguy · January 2007

You make good points about Acura but Lexus interiors are hardly paradigms, very far from it IMO. For the most part I think they are incongruous and disproportionate, not shapely at all.

Every luxury car company has highs and lows in terms of interior design and quality, Lexus included. I just think Acura is lower than most. The ML and GL don't flatter MB. Neither did the pre-refresh C-class. The 7 series is mediocre at best, and the Z4 is like a cave. Audi...uh.. well I don't think the A3 is amazing on the inside. It's pretty hard to find fault with most Audis. At the other end though, Mercedes has the S-class, BMW has the X5, and Audi has the A8. Lexus has the ES and the 600hL. Cadillac has the post refresh SRX. Infiniti has never been known for great interiors, but the new G is very well done. When has Acura knocked one out of the park? Ever?

brightness04 · January 2007

75 percent growth for the A8 is amazing for this emerging market and there are no ifs and buts about it!

Actually that kind of growth for a particular model is not unusual at all for emerging markets. We are talking about a base of only a couple thousand units a year; high per centage growth is common when numerical base is low, in any market. Just to put in context, the Chinese car market itself grew by 34% last year (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-07/02/content_345100.htm), Ford grew by 86.6%! BMW brand 49.6% (Reuters artical headline actually reads 51.3%, growth is so high, they apparently can't even count consistently in the same article!), Rolls-Royce grew by 60%! (http://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/2007/january/09/12212.asp)

For what it's worth, Lexus sales growth was 76% in Europe! As a whole brand, not just select individual models! That's to a new numerical base of 50k units!. High per centage growth is common when the market is "emerging" :-)

Also there is nothing wrong with being a high paid bureaucrat with a nice car

Interesting take indeed. A8 at about close to $100k local price (after import tax etc.) is roughly 30 times the local average annual income. In comparable ratios, if bureacrats in the US were driving around in cars costing over $1 million, you tell me no corruption is involved. Businessmen and corruption are not mutually exclusive in the developing world. I have my own business associates in China. Few of them have cars like A8 (after all, only a couple thousand were sold in a country of 13 billion). Those who do have cars like that certainly do not drive themselves. Heck, most Toyota Crown and A6 owning businessmen do not drive themselves if they can help it. I wouldn't want to drive there myself, given how crazy the traffic is; if you thought NYC or Boston drivers were rude, try driving in Shanghai ;-)

brightness04 · January 2007

Very well said. MB and BMW are incredibly successful in marketting. The good news is that the actual cost of getting one can often be less than what many others may think thanks to rebates of alls sorts that you mentioned (please, other readers, let's not get into a debate over lease again). That makes the cars very good tools for "impressions" as you mentioned and as employee incentives when employer lea . . . er . . . gets one for the valued employees.

You wish you had a choice, but your gf will want a diamond no matter what.

hahaha, run! don't look back :-)

tagman · January 2007

d-man,
When it comes to design stuff, you and I, due to our specialties, just might see things differently than the others. But whether that is the case or not, I agree with your point in your post. I can see the advantage of real wood, but that advantage can be overshadowed by poor execution.

The bottom line on all of this is that, even to this day, the interiors of neither Acura or Lexus are anything to crow about. I'd give the edge to Lexus overall, as I always have, but those posts that lg had been making were too extreme and off balance... inferring that Lexus interiors are incredible and Acura interiors have never been any good.

Heck, they both use the same design theme overall, with some exceptions here and there. Yes, I'll give the edge to Lexus, but an irrelevant edge.

As you know very well, to this day, the flagship LS model uses conventional center stack / console layout and is executed with good workmanship, but for a HELC, there is an abundance of plastic and the design is nothing striking or special, just conventional that's done well. Acura doesn't have a HELC, as I see it, and that is another reason to expect better from Lexus, but it is not there I'm afraid.

Even the rear multimedia in the LS long wheelbase is the same design as in a minivan, with the flip down (although motorized, of course) roof mounted screen. These are a dime a dozen and cheap-looking. The BMW has an interesting center console approach that swivels and turns... not fantastic, but innovative, and the best approach is individual color monitors in the back of the headrests, like Jaguar, Land Rover, Mercedes, and others.

Again, conventional and boring, but well done.

That's why all this baloney has been going back and forth. Lexus deserves no special recognition for those interiors, and Acura does not deserve such harsh criticism for also building conventional interiors that look very similar in their layout and execution... regardless of whether the wood is real or not. Wood isn't the almightly deciding factor between those two brands, that's for sure.

Between the Acura and Lexus interiors... I'd say a 6 for one and half dozen for the other... with slight edge to Lexus. That's the balanced reality, IMHO, of course.

TagMan

ggesq · January 2007

If your interpretation of driving is going from point A to point B then I can understand that.

However, if it is not then I must ask- do you derive any pleasure from driving? I do, I look forward to driving everyday. I enjoy the sound of the motor, exhaust, the feel of the road through the steering wheel & having complete control of the car with my hands (via manual tranny).It's almost an addiction.

I have yet to find a Lexus to deliver "driving" pleasure. Maybe the Lexus IS-F will do better but then again maybe not. From what I hear, they still won't put a manual tranny in their M3 fighter.

As far as the indirect personal attacks- whatever...

pat · January 2007

To all:

Let's stop making this personal. We all are entitled to our priorities and, really, we have no right to dictate to others what their priorities should be. Sometimes it's a good idea to just understand that the other person has a different point of view and that's okay - you don't have to agree, but it's all good! There's no need to make differing viewpoints into personal confrontations.

And please note that we've been losing track of the definition of this discussion. Please remember what we've worked so hard to define - see the header if you don't remember.

hpowders · January 2007

Just when I thought I found a disciple!

LOL!!!

tagman · January 2007

ggesq,
I notice you typically post on some of the other forums, and I haven't seen you around here much. Hope to see more of your posts here, as I've been enjoying them quite a bit.
TagMan

tagman · January 2007

Marketing is not manipulation. It is inspiration, if done well. People want to be inspired.

Your post was well written, almost poetic, Doc.

Those particular sentences, however, are not completely accurate. They do express your desire for being inspired, and certainly others have that desire, but that does not mean that marketing is not manipulation. To some extent it is.

Advertising, which is a component of marketing, is designed to do various things. Typically it's purpose is to illicit behavior by appealing to and fulfilling specific emotions... and depending on the product, the emotional fulfillment is not always the same. What a housewife wants from "Mr. Clean" and "Shout" and other cleaning agents may have nothing to do with what she wants from her car, and yet, believe it or not, sometimes it does.

Since we are about cars and not cleaning agents here, let me assure you that car purchases are mostly emotional purchases, and even those folks that like to believe they have made an intelligent or rational decision, are fulfilling their need to be or look intelligent or act in a self-perceived rational manner.

I'll skip the marketing and advertising lecture, I promise you, but this is what my college degree was based upon, and I can only tell you that it can be more intense and deliberate than you could ever imagine. It sometimes goes all the way to our physiology and how we are wired. Oh yes, it is manipulation alright.

And that's one reason there are so many different types and styles of vehicles out there. Not just for function.

Why does someone buy a Volvo, for example, instead of a Lexus? Why does someone buy a Lexus instead of a BMW? Why does someone buy a BMW or Mercedes instead of a Lexus? Why does Saab sell in such few numbers? Why would someone buy a Pontiac instead of a Buick? Why was the Cadillac Escalade such a big hit? How come so many off-road vehicles have never been off road? Why do so many folks in the South drive pickup trucks? And why have so many of those trucks never been used as a truck?

Doc, there's too much to cover here on this forum, but trust me when I say it's a lot more than inspiration, my friend, and marketing is indeed in part about manipulation.

Now, I have a question for you. You said you like the Mercedes SL. Have you owned one? Personally, I haven't yet. I came so, so very close when I bought the Porsche. It was between the Jag XK, the Porsche 911 Carrera S, and the SL550. Similar to blkhemi's choices. I was ultimately after a bit more performance, so I chose the Porsche. No real gripes about the XK... gorgeous car. But that SL almost made its way into my garage... it was a nice combination of style and performance and luxury. The retractable hardtop worked so nicely and I liked the idea of it. Also I gave it high marks for the driver's comfort. And that 550 engine is a good one.

Anyway, your take on the SL and have you owned one?

TagMan

houdini1 · January 2007

Yes, thank you, I enjoy driving very much. I don't normally look for excitement when I am driving, but to me, driving is also a pleasurable experience.

I enjoy driving expensive, well made, competent, engaging vehicles but not especially driving them like my hair in on fire. The boy racer image just does not appeal to me.

hpowders · January 2007

I agree with you and would take fake wood over a boring driving experience every time. However, when Acura overhauls its upscale SUV to compete with the likes of BMW, Mercedes Benz and Lexus, one expects nice wood and a good steering wheel just to remain competitive.

Seems like the folks at Acura just don't get it. Too bad.

houdini1 · January 2007

Tagman,

Credit where credit is due, a wonderful post and presented very clearly. I agree with every word you wrote.

I think most people have an understanding of how much advertising and marketing affect our lives but without really being aware of it. I remember shopping for a car for one of my teenage sons (many years ago) and suggesting a certain car for him. He just laughed, shook his head and said, "No dad, that's a girl's car".

tagman · January 2007

Credit where credit is due, a wonderful post and presented very clearly. I agree with every word you wrote.

Thanks, houdini, and nice story about purchasing the car for your son. I can only look forward to those challenging days of purchasing a car for my kids.

So far... my teenage daughter (not driving age, yet) tells me that the Porsche is cool, the wife's Jaguar is for old ladies, the MDX is OK but no big deal, and she would be like to drive a Jeep Wrangler when that time comes. Holy smokes, houdini, now there's a good reason for a Lexus IS... maybe.

My son, who is only 7 thinks anything that resembles a Hot-Wheel is cool, although he thinks the video monitors in the back of that "old lady's Jag" are cool. The little stinker punched me when I got rid of the Lotus, but he loves the Porsche, as long as the top is down. "Why don't we get a Ferrari, Dad?"

If it were only that simple, eh?

TagMan

pat · January 2007

If I'm not mistaken - which I could be - no Acura qualifies as a high end luxury vehicle. Am I wrong?

brightness04 · January 2007

I ran across an article recent that may answer some of the why's that you lised very well:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Commentary/Flint_Why_People_Buy_Cars.S- 192.A11746.html

That answers why people buy vehicles that have attributes/special abilities that get used very infrequently. As to why people buy certain brands instead of others, reliability expectations and image certainly do matter (aside from size, performance etc. that can be immediately measured; reliability expecations and image are not immediately measurable for the specific car that one can sit in; they tend to be statistic measures and perhaps even more intangible value for "image"). IMHO, people who pick the 2nd-tier luxury brands over the top (non-exotic) tier brands, e.g. the likes of Volvo and Saab instead of Lexus, MB and BMW, usually for two reasons:

(1) cost; that's self-explanatory;

(2) Image issue. Being overly extrovert may not work well in certain circles. For a long time, most of my clients were in the $50-150k income bracket, having myself arriving in a car that is substantially better than theirs simply wouldn't go over very well. That start to change in the last couple years for the better, so I will have less restrictive selections later this year (I'm on a 3yr new car cycle). It's quite understandable that image issue may well work in the other direction for someone else; once upon a time, I drove 5 series (actually two of them, consecutively), when working for myself without either boss or direct client interaction, and I was single ;-)

IMHO, so few Saabs are sold because there are so few dealers, leading to both maintenance hassle and price non-competitiveness. The same may be said of Audi in the US, to some degree. In places where there are a lot of Saab dealers, like New England, Saabs sell very well.

hpowders · January 2007

No. You are technically correct.

Since the MDX was mentioned by 5 different posters recently, (see posts # 23394, 23374, 23379, 23384 and 23438), I thought it was "in play" here. But as it is only priced in the mid $40's, it surely doesn't qualify as a HELV and shouldn't be discussed here.

tagman · January 2007

That's my understanding as well, Pat, which I mentioned to designman in post 23429, when I said:

Acura doesn't have a HELC, as I see it, and that is another reason to expect better from Lexus, but it is not there I'm afraid.

So... guilty of off-topic posting I'm afraid.

TagMan

syswei · January 2007

If I'm not mistaken - which I could be - no Acura qualifies as a high end luxury vehicle. Am I wrong?

NSX

When it comes to sedans and SUVs, but not sports cars, I think of real wood as being a requirement for being considered a true "luxury" vehicle.

High End Luxury Cars

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