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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't believe a racing car is exactly what the HELCers usually have in mind. Something usually a bit more sedate and conservative-enveloped in fine Corinthian leather and wood from the same premium-fertilized tree.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I agree with you hpowders, even though we talk about sportier high-end cars from time to time, and appropriately so... HELCers have this in mind... the finest materials and workmanship, luxurious in nature, classy styling, good design execution, good driving dynamics, and creature comforts are all part of the HELC picture. Beyond those physical attributes are sometimes image attributes as well... prestige, status, etc.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I was of course well aware of that fine Acura machine and sure wouldn't turn one down if offered, but it just doesn't fit the gestalt of what many high-enders associate as a HELV.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Pat, no the MDX and the RL certainly do not qualify. Sometimes cars like these are mentioned just for comparison sake and for something to measure against, not because there is a lot of interest here. Just my take on why they come up from time to time.

    Fact is, I'm just as interested in the various posters and their opinions as the actual cars anyway. But I will do my best to stick to the rules.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    ...the MDX and the RL certainly do not qualify. Sometimes cars like these are mentioned just for comparison sake and for something to measure against, not because there is a lot of interest here. Just my take on why they come up from time to time.

    Exactly! The posts that I placed about the Acura interiors, for example, was only in response to the blatant statement by Lexusguy that Acura has NEVER made a decent interior and that Lexus interiors were so much better. Well, as it turned out, other than the wood, they were all darned similar... incredibly similar!

    But I will do my best to stick to the rules.

    Pat, I'll also be more careful. Sorry. :blush:

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Now that everyone has defended and/or apologized for his postings about Acuras, let's move on - 'kay? :)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    IMHO, "cars" as used in the forum title is an inclusive term, meant to include not just sedans, but also SUVs and sport cars.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If what you say is correct, the thread should probably be renamed HELV instead of HELC.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The change from HELV to HELC was a "management idea". IMHO motivated by commercial reasons....wanting to show up more often in web searches. I guess they're entitled.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I didn't realize we were known as HELV once upon a time.
    Saves me some time going to the copyright office! :)
  • acavinsacavins Member Posts: 5
    If anyone is looking for a GMID for a Buick contact me.
    acavins@sewell.com
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "When it comes to sedans and SUVs, but not sports cars, I think of real wood as being a requirement for being considered a true "luxury" vehicle."

    I think everyone here including myself agrees with you. Real wood should be used in each and every car in this segment. Acura is not in this segment.
    I would further add however, that the person who originated this thread intended that the vehicles in this segment also have a certain level of performance as well accompanied with that luxury. No, it's not about being a track star on the weekends but geez- how about a little excitement? After all, that is what this thread is about right? Talking about high end luxury performance vehicles - not appliances.
    Of all the cars listed listed above, you can guess which ones seriously lack in that department. Different strokes for different folks- nothing wrong with that. But if it came down to choosing real wood coupled w/ lackluster performance vs the alternative, I choose the latter.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    IMHO, "cars" as used in the forum title is an inclusive term, meant to include not just sedans, but also SUVs and sport cars.

    Yes.

    I directed the body style question to our host, Pat, after the creation of the HELC title and the destruction of the HELM title... Pat's answer was very reasonable, IMO... if it's high end, it's OK, any body style.

    I think we all know from the host's feedback that when the posts go beyond an occasional remark about lower-tiered vehicles, to actually discussing those lower-tiered vehicles, that's when the host steps in.

    There hasn't been intervention when we've posted about high end cars, SUV's or sports cars, or even for that matter an occasional post about a lower-tiered vehicle if there is some sort of relevancy.

    Truth, IMO, is that the host has been generous, and we are the ones shooting ourselves in the foot on occasion... and I'm as guilty as the next guy.

    Obviously, the key words here are simply "HIGH END".

    TagMan
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Different strokes for different folks

    That I agree with.

    the person who originated this thread intended that the vehicles in this segment also have a certain level of performance as well accompanied with that luxury. No, it's not about being a track star on the weekends but geez- how about a little excitement?

    "Performance" means different things to different people. Is RR a HELC? If it isn't, then it's an Ultra-HELC. It has "performance" in the sense of a good-sized engine and decent accelaration, but not in the all senses of "performance" (which is how I think you meant the word) - such as "handling".

    So if you're insinuating that and LS for instance isn't a HELC, I disagree. Unless you want to exclude RR too?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The history was HELM then HELV then HELC. The original description of the HELV forum specifically mentioned SUVs and I believe convertibles as being included. It may not have mentioned sports cars, but I think that was implicit.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    After all, that is what this thread is about right? Talking about high end luxury performance vehicles - not appliances.

    ggesq,

    Not exactly.

    I agree with your perspective as usual, but the performance aspect of this thread is actually not an integral part of the forum. There is, however, another forum that does discuss "Luxury Performance Sedans"... it is here:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef26837?displayRecent

    That doesn't mean we can't discuss performance, because we do. It just means that some of the high end cars can be more like the appliance you refer to and still be included. ;)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The history was HELM then HELV then HELC. The original description of the HELV forum specifically mentioned SUVs and I believe convertibles as being included. It may not have mentioned sports cars, but I think that was implicit.

    Yes. :)

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Exactly! We already have a "luxury performance sedan" forum those who are interested in slalom with a luxo boat ;-) Performance for HELC, if there is "performance" at all, should mean "accelerating with authority," the goold old Rolls-Royce, and later MB 600 series marketting angle. A 4500+lb car on 120" wheelbase is really not designed for weekend autocross :-)
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    One, for a non-HELC marque, Acura sure is getting a lot of airtime here! :confuse:

    And #2, Tag, the Benz SL is iconic, and deserving of true lust amongst even the most hardened driving enthusiast.

    I am not very impressed with the interior, since this seems to be the week's hot-button topic, and I do find the SC430 considerably more posh. The SL is austere in comparison. But it makes up for it in exterior styling, where it has an advantage.

    The Benz SL is pure style, but it is not for me, as I wouldn't even think of using a slushbox as my daily driver. And, as I've said, luxury cars are interesting, but not necessarily for me.

    In a perfect world, I'd have the Mazda3 sedan built with the MazdaSpeed engine and upgrades, thereby rendering cars like the 330i obsolete. :surprise:

    The Benz would be an awesome weekend toy, doh! ;)

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    And #2, Tag, the Benz SL is iconic, and deserving of true lust amongst even the most hardened driving enthusiast.

    The Benz SL is pure style,...

    The Benz would be an awesome weekend toy, doh!

    ALL true!

    Thanks, Doc!! :)

    TagMan
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Well Tagman---I`m glad you and Blk got different cars than the sl, as there are really alot of them around, particularly here in S Florida...While over in one our favorite shopping spots, four in a row came past looking for a parking spot, and then a fifth came the other way and almost hit me, although it wasn`t scary...The Bentley continental is also getting rather boring, and I never thought I would say that...The Porsche is timeless, and another car that has grown on me is the bmw 5, and I didn`t even care for it`s looks at first.....Tony
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    I'll give you my own assessment:

    Audi A8- although you have to want to be subtle, the A8's style is seductive and classy. It is complemented by a drop-dead gorgeous interior (with flip-out 7 or 8" screen) drenched in wood trim. Luxury isn't this car's only calling card- fantastic dynamics abound. The A8 is noted as having "the best handling in its class", but this is compromised somewhat by a slightly firmer ride than, say, an S-Class.

    BMW 7 Series- it's appealing, but there's no reason not to buy the Audi or Lexus over it. You have to really want the badge. A8 has better dynamics and luxury, LS has better luxury and reliability. It also has questionable style, though I like it. The interior isn't below-par by any means, however; clearly the king of the BMW heap on the inside. Also has a great V8 engine.

    Lexus LS460- pure luxury. However, its interior (which I feel is executed less-fashionably than the A8 and S-Class), which is filled with convenient touches and technology, is let down by its disappointing dynamics. For me, it's a deal breaker. You may be more into pampering and luxury. If so, spring for the LS460L over the standard wheelbase.

    Mercedes-Benz S550- if the A8 was the best compromise between sport and luxury before, this is now, but with an added dash of style. The S-Class is perhaps the most desirable sedan in the world, and deservedly so. The styling is an acquired taste (I've acquired it), but the interior is a masterful combination of form and function, and the engine is creamy-smooth, and very powerful (equal to Lexus here). However, something the new LS doesn't have is the sporty dynamics. Without the slightly harsh ride of an A8L, the S-Class has supreme handling in addition to its opulence. All this greatness comes at a price, though; far more expensive than the others, this big Benz can easily surpass six figures.

    But don't listen to me. I'm just un-biased.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Re: "...this big Benz can easily surpass six figures."

    Has anyone had any luck purchasing/ordering one for the base MSRP of 82K (or so)? Now that would be an attractive deal.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    As you know very well, to this day, the flagship LS model uses conventional center stack / console layout and is executed with good workmanship, but for a HELC, there is an abundance of plastic and the design is nothing striking or special, just conventional that's done well.

    Totally agree. I will add that I can’t stand the butterfly shape and tall orientation of the LS centerstack. It is so discordant and independent of the dash, kind of like the buckle on an old wide cowboy belt. To make another comparison, it reminds me of an extra bold serif font—can’t stand them and I can’t recall ever using one throughout my career. If I buy an LS it would have to have a black interior to camouflage the grotesque centerstack. Black does a lot to mitigate the damages. The dash/centerstack relationship is incredibly undesigned IMO.

    I must mention however that I also do not care for the interiors of the rest of the cars in the masthead of this thread. They all have shortcomings with layout. The exception is the Audi. I agree with the majority here.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    I completely agree. I've said this on the restlessly stupid AutoSpies many times to their stubborn Lexus fans- there's nothing that great about the LS's interior design.

    It doesn't flow. It doesn't look very expensive. It's covered with plastic and buttons.

    The S-Class and A8 interiors look bejeweled by comparison.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Nice post and you have put into words what some of the rest of us agree with. I must add that I think the curvaceous nature of the S-Class dash is appealing enough for me as opposed to some of the others.

    image
    BTW, an interesting interior I happen to like is found in the Range Rover.

    image

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Perhaps it is you who should check your facts. Edmunds has the GL starting at $52,000. not $55,000 as you say. So you are again wrong there. The GL might qualify for entry level luxury but not HELC.

    I didn't think I had to spell everything out for you, but the GL450 starts at 55,675. No unless the LX comes in a Diesel why would I compare it to the GL320 CDI? Also, the GL320 CDI starts at 53,175, not 52K. So you're the one that is WRONG as usual. Besides both of those prices are a long ways away from the 40K range you first gave in an effort to disqualify the GL from being compared to the LX.

    I only mentioned the ML because I drove the ML and the LX back to back and exposed the ML for the cheap pretender that it was. Actually the 3 year old LX and the new ML were priced about the same at that time, but as I said there was really no comparison at all.

    Makes no sense at all. You're comparing the price of a used vehicle that happens to be priced at the same level as a new one. What nonsense.

    A Major League HELC LS VS a Bush League Tin Can ML.

    Gee now the LS and ML are competitors? Who said that the ML was high-end? Just too ridiculous, so much so that you can't keep which Benz to knock in mind from one paragraph to the next.

    I like how you haven't been able to come up with a reason why the Range Rover doesn't trounce your LX. You can't use price, all you got is reliablity and that ain't all that.

    Still wanna say that the GL and Range Rover can't be given away?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The SC430 is a very successful car, with a great interior, and an underrated chassis, considering it is usually pitted against some of the best performing machines in the world. It's no slouch, is all I can say, despite what is put over in these forums.

    Doc, you're still making excuses for this car. Saying that is competes against some of the best performing cars in the world is a back-handed compliment. They're GT cars, not sports cars and the SC430 flunks at comparing to them also. The only real sports cars the SC is compared to from time to time is the 911. Ok none of the others in the class can get with a 911 dynamically, but there in no excuse you can come up with as to why the SC430 can't even get with a CLK, SL, XK, 650i, or XLR in the driving department. A very successful car? Yep in sales and quality, ditch everything else. I love how you pick and choose which criteria to use for your rants, depending on the Lexus of the hour.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm looking at the pics you and Tag posted and I see no superiority in the Lexus interiors of those years.

    That said I do remember them feeling of higher quality than most Acuras back then, save for the last Legend (91-95). In those pics, their designs are so similar to the point of splitting hairs to say which is better. Its all blah Japanese design as its best.

    Of course Acura has nothing to compare to a S-Class, A8 or LS so that is sorta unfair. Now the IS and ES do have better interiors than the TL, I agree there. Ditto for the GS compared to the RL.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I agree with your take on those cars for sure.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The problem with the LS' design is that it is no different from a Camry in the way it looks and its layout.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It doesn't look like it there, but the Range Rover easily has the best interior of any luxury SUV on the market. Some of their interior options are just way too luxurious. Constrasting piping and what not, miles ahead of anything from the usual suspect's SUVs here.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Simply put it should have been kept HELM, for marques. There was no need to change the title of this thread since it wasn't model or make specific.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually, I think M-B's best work is the CL600. Its stunning on the inside, it looks like a more expensive car than it is, the exact opposite of the last CL V12.

    image

    image
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Apparently, no one make a top-notch interior!

    The BMW is universally panned, and the S-Class apes that.

    The Camry has been passed styling cues from the LS, so now the LS is no good.

    I guess because the Maybach and Benz are sharing an interior, neither of them are any good.

    I'm still not sure why Acura is in this forum.

    When you try to reinvent the wheel, you will screw it up (ask BMW).

    Many vehicles share parts, styling cues, and layout with lower-priced cars. I can look at 3 different Mercedes front ends and not know what car I'm looking at.

    Porsche only has one interior from what I can tell.

    Everyone lives in a glass house on this one. :confuse:

    The only maker who still can't make an interior livable is BMW. And I don't think they care!

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I knew when the SLK and CLS arrived that Mercedes had learned their lesson about interiors. The S and CL just gave them the chance to really pour it on thick.

    Too bad the folks in Bama at MBUSI still aren't on the same page. Better than the first generation ML for sure, but the R/GL/ML still aren't cut from the same German cloth.

    M
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Feel free to email Sylvia and discuss it with her. But let's please stop kicking this back and forth in here.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Sorry, wrong again. Your silly argument on starting prices of the GL should be with Edmunds, not me. The 320 CDI starts at $52,400. and the GL 450 starts at $54,900. Keep trying and you will get it right eventually.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Guy, do you know what a destination charge is? Try adding it and then posting. Eventually you'll get it right. If anyone is being silly it is you by hiding behind a price difference of 5K or so to disqualify a vehicle that you know full well is a competitor to the LX470. Then not being able to actually read a price in the first place. Now thats silly.

    I'm still waiting on a valid reason as to why the Range Rover doesn't stomp the ancient LX470?

    You're the one using their prices so the problem lies with you and this fuzzy math. First the GL had a price in the 40K, now you're not able to get the actual sticker price right. You'll not find a GL anywhere for the prices you listed.

    M
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Sigh.....nobody includes the destination charges in MSRP. Just like the taxes you have to pay or doc fees or whatever are not incl. in MSRP. You might as well also include the cost of your first years gasoline in the MSRP as well. Maybe you can hit the magic $60,000. number yet.

    I'm not saying the Range Rover is not a good vehicle. I'm just saying I prefer the LX 470. That is why I own one. Since you own neither, just what is your beef?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    It's time to agree to disagree and move on.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Houdini, The base price is relevant only to the level that it includes enough typical equipment. In other words, a $59K vehicle would only need $1K worth of options/accessories to qualify. In real life, you would be hard pressed to find a GL selling anywhere under $60K, and real-life prices typically and easily reach into the $60's, $70's and beyond.

    Therefore the spirit and intention of the $60K price arena is more than met by real-life pricing, and further the GL represents MB's top tier SUV, and that also gives further merit to it's inclusion here. It's pretty darned obvious, for goodness sakes.

    BTW, there is nothing wrong, IMO, with your preference for an LX470, however the Range Rover is indeed quite an incredible SUV. If its reliability was a bit better it would be even more appealing, IMO.

    TagMan
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Hmm, not sure about that after a '71 Hemi Cuda got 2.2 mil at auction. Veyron brings some serious numbers to the table starting with only 300 being made and being sold at a loss to the company. ...

    But there were only 11 of those Hemi Cudas ever made, and not all of those are in existance anymore. With 300 of the Veyrons running around, It probably won't reach that kind of value. The main thing that makes American muscle so desirable nowadays is the fact that they were actually obtainable by the middle-class man. The Veyron is unobtainable by anybody other than the richest of the rich. And for a car that starts out that high to ever become a collector's item, it has to be a superluxury saloon. What sports car that costs that relative kind of money has ever fetched the bucks of a rare, superluxury saloon on the collector's market? I don't think any. I could be wrong.

    The Shelby Cobra doesn't count. As expensive as it was in its day, a person still didn't have to heat their home with the flames of $100 bills to be able to buy one.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Glad to hear someone else think real life pricing matters, for a change. The real life pricing for GL450 is $699/mo according to MBUSA. At that price, it's getting mighty close to the $750/mo cut-off line that I proposed earlier for HELC. On the other hand, if we just stick with MSRP, MBUSA says GL MSRP is $53.1k, and GL450 MSRP is $55.6k, missing the $60k line by quite a wide margin. Incidentally, I suggested earlier that a real-life after-all-discount cash price of $52k would better describe the substance behind a $60k MSRP. On the GL, it really shows what the equivalent price points are when there's relatively little financial engineering by the manufacturer messing with the numbers.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    merc1, you're on fire with these posts. One after another- banging them out!

    But you're starting to sound like AutoSpies in your fervor. The LS, while I wouldn't pick it over the German three, is a fine car. New one addresses the style issue (somewhat), and gives it a very good engine. Believe me, you don't want to end up like AutoSpies.

    You have no idea how sick I am of hearing about "reliability" and "#1 in America." Hell on Earth doesn't seem to be a myth, after all. At least for car fans.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    I want it.

    I see CL550s (rarely, albeit) on the road now. Stunningly beautiful, in a brash way.

    I'll have to drive it, and if it's good enough, I might have to sacrifice having a convertible.

    If my wife ended up with an '07 S550 4Matic next year (yes, used), and I got the CL550 in a few years, that would be adorable. The two ultra-luxury Benzes!

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Of course, you didn't mention the A8, because there's nothing you can do to bash its interior. One magazine even said it was "the sexiest sedan interior" they'd ever seen.

    The 7 Series interior isn't that bad, either. And the S-Class's is far better, believe me. Sit in it. Just the feel of the steering wheel will tell you.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Nope, you're wrong.

    Don't you think you should check the Mercedes website, and not just Edmunds?

    GL320 CDI: $53,175

    GL450: $55,675

    And what's better about the LX470 than the Range Rover? I'd MUCH rather have a Range Rover, but I do like the way the LX looks.

    Range Rover advantages:

    Modern technology

    Looks

    Contemporary, beautifully finished interior

    Engine

    AWD system

    Prestige/desirability/glamor

    I want one

    Game point, Range Rover.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Glad to hear someone else think real life pricing matters, for a change.

    In terms of defining eligibility for inclusion here in this forum, MSRP plus typical options is the criteria.

    So, my reference (unlike yours) to real-life pricing is not with regards to discounts or subsidies or promotions or ultimate selling prices, but rather the ultimate real-life typical retail price that results when typical options, packages and accessories are taken into account and added to the MSRP.

    After I read your post, I figured I had better clarify that. :)

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I want one

    Then by all means you have my permission to buy one.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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