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Comments
TagMan
Fact is, I'm just as interested in the various posters and their opinions as the actual cars anyway. But I will do my best to stick to the rules.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Exactly! The posts that I placed about the Acura interiors, for example, was only in response to the blatant statement by Lexusguy that Acura has NEVER made a decent interior and that Lexus interiors were so much better. Well, as it turned out, other than the wood, they were all darned similar... incredibly similar!
But I will do my best to stick to the rules.
Pat, I'll also be more careful. Sorry.
TagMan
Saves me some time going to the copyright office!
acavins@sewell.com
I think everyone here including myself agrees with you. Real wood should be used in each and every car in this segment. Acura is not in this segment.
I would further add however, that the person who originated this thread intended that the vehicles in this segment also have a certain level of performance as well accompanied with that luxury. No, it's not about being a track star on the weekends but geez- how about a little excitement? After all, that is what this thread is about right? Talking about high end luxury performance vehicles - not appliances.
Of all the cars listed listed above, you can guess which ones seriously lack in that department. Different strokes for different folks- nothing wrong with that. But if it came down to choosing real wood coupled w/ lackluster performance vs the alternative, I choose the latter.
Yes.
I directed the body style question to our host, Pat, after the creation of the HELC title and the destruction of the HELM title... Pat's answer was very reasonable, IMO... if it's high end, it's OK, any body style.
I think we all know from the host's feedback that when the posts go beyond an occasional remark about lower-tiered vehicles, to actually discussing those lower-tiered vehicles, that's when the host steps in.
There hasn't been intervention when we've posted about high end cars, SUV's or sports cars, or even for that matter an occasional post about a lower-tiered vehicle if there is some sort of relevancy.
Truth, IMO, is that the host has been generous, and we are the ones shooting ourselves in the foot on occasion... and I'm as guilty as the next guy.
Obviously, the key words here are simply "HIGH END".
TagMan
That I agree with.
the person who originated this thread intended that the vehicles in this segment also have a certain level of performance as well accompanied with that luxury. No, it's not about being a track star on the weekends but geez- how about a little excitement?
"Performance" means different things to different people. Is RR a HELC? If it isn't, then it's an Ultra-HELC. It has "performance" in the sense of a good-sized engine and decent accelaration, but not in the all senses of "performance" (which is how I think you meant the word) - such as "handling".
So if you're insinuating that and LS for instance isn't a HELC, I disagree. Unless you want to exclude RR too?
ggesq,
Not exactly.
I agree with your perspective as usual, but the performance aspect of this thread is actually not an integral part of the forum. There is, however, another forum that does discuss "Luxury Performance Sedans"... it is here:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef26837?displayRecent
That doesn't mean we can't discuss performance, because we do. It just means that some of the high end cars can be more like the appliance you refer to and still be included.
TagMan
Yes.
TagMan
And #2, Tag, the Benz SL is iconic, and deserving of true lust amongst even the most hardened driving enthusiast.
I am not very impressed with the interior, since this seems to be the week's hot-button topic, and I do find the SC430 considerably more posh. The SL is austere in comparison. But it makes up for it in exterior styling, where it has an advantage.
The Benz SL is pure style, but it is not for me, as I wouldn't even think of using a slushbox as my daily driver. And, as I've said, luxury cars are interesting, but not necessarily for me.
In a perfect world, I'd have the Mazda3 sedan built with the MazdaSpeed engine and upgrades, thereby rendering cars like the 330i obsolete. :surprise:
The Benz would be an awesome weekend toy, doh!
DrFill
The Benz SL is pure style,...
The Benz would be an awesome weekend toy, doh!
ALL true!
Thanks, Doc!!
TagMan
Audi A8- although you have to want to be subtle, the A8's style is seductive and classy. It is complemented by a drop-dead gorgeous interior (with flip-out 7 or 8" screen) drenched in wood trim. Luxury isn't this car's only calling card- fantastic dynamics abound. The A8 is noted as having "the best handling in its class", but this is compromised somewhat by a slightly firmer ride than, say, an S-Class.
BMW 7 Series- it's appealing, but there's no reason not to buy the Audi or Lexus over it. You have to really want the badge. A8 has better dynamics and luxury, LS has better luxury and reliability. It also has questionable style, though I like it. The interior isn't below-par by any means, however; clearly the king of the BMW heap on the inside. Also has a great V8 engine.
Lexus LS460- pure luxury. However, its interior (which I feel is executed less-fashionably than the A8 and S-Class), which is filled with convenient touches and technology, is let down by its disappointing dynamics. For me, it's a deal breaker. You may be more into pampering and luxury. If so, spring for the LS460L over the standard wheelbase.
Mercedes-Benz S550- if the A8 was the best compromise between sport and luxury before, this is now, but with an added dash of style. The S-Class is perhaps the most desirable sedan in the world, and deservedly so. The styling is an acquired taste (I've acquired it), but the interior is a masterful combination of form and function, and the engine is creamy-smooth, and very powerful (equal to Lexus here). However, something the new LS doesn't have is the sporty dynamics. Without the slightly harsh ride of an A8L, the S-Class has supreme handling in addition to its opulence. All this greatness comes at a price, though; far more expensive than the others, this big Benz can easily surpass six figures.
But don't listen to me. I'm just un-biased.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Has anyone had any luck purchasing/ordering one for the base MSRP of 82K (or so)? Now that would be an attractive deal.
Totally agree. I will add that I can’t stand the butterfly shape and tall orientation of the LS centerstack. It is so discordant and independent of the dash, kind of like the buckle on an old wide cowboy belt. To make another comparison, it reminds me of an extra bold serif font—can’t stand them and I can’t recall ever using one throughout my career. If I buy an LS it would have to have a black interior to camouflage the grotesque centerstack. Black does a lot to mitigate the damages. The dash/centerstack relationship is incredibly undesigned IMO.
I must mention however that I also do not care for the interiors of the rest of the cars in the masthead of this thread. They all have shortcomings with layout. The exception is the Audi. I agree with the majority here.
It doesn't flow. It doesn't look very expensive. It's covered with plastic and buttons.
The S-Class and A8 interiors look bejeweled by comparison.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
BTW, an interesting interior I happen to like is found in the Range Rover.
TagMan
I didn't think I had to spell everything out for you, but the GL450 starts at 55,675. No unless the LX comes in a Diesel why would I compare it to the GL320 CDI? Also, the GL320 CDI starts at 53,175, not 52K. So you're the one that is WRONG as usual. Besides both of those prices are a long ways away from the 40K range you first gave in an effort to disqualify the GL from being compared to the LX.
I only mentioned the ML because I drove the ML and the LX back to back and exposed the ML for the cheap pretender that it was. Actually the 3 year old LX and the new ML were priced about the same at that time, but as I said there was really no comparison at all.
Makes no sense at all. You're comparing the price of a used vehicle that happens to be priced at the same level as a new one. What nonsense.
A Major League HELC LS VS a Bush League Tin Can ML.
Gee now the LS and ML are competitors? Who said that the ML was high-end? Just too ridiculous, so much so that you can't keep which Benz to knock in mind from one paragraph to the next.
I like how you haven't been able to come up with a reason why the Range Rover doesn't trounce your LX. You can't use price, all you got is reliablity and that ain't all that.
Still wanna say that the GL and Range Rover can't be given away?
M
Doc, you're still making excuses for this car. Saying that is competes against some of the best performing cars in the world is a back-handed compliment. They're GT cars, not sports cars and the SC430 flunks at comparing to them also. The only real sports cars the SC is compared to from time to time is the 911. Ok none of the others in the class can get with a 911 dynamically, but there in no excuse you can come up with as to why the SC430 can't even get with a CLK, SL, XK, 650i, or XLR in the driving department. A very successful car? Yep in sales and quality, ditch everything else. I love how you pick and choose which criteria to use for your rants, depending on the Lexus of the hour.
M
That said I do remember them feeling of higher quality than most Acuras back then, save for the last Legend (91-95). In those pics, their designs are so similar to the point of splitting hairs to say which is better. Its all blah Japanese design as its best.
Of course Acura has nothing to compare to a S-Class, A8 or LS so that is sorta unfair. Now the IS and ES do have better interiors than the TL, I agree there. Ditto for the GS compared to the RL.
M
M
M
M
M
The BMW is universally panned, and the S-Class apes that.
The Camry has been passed styling cues from the LS, so now the LS is no good.
I guess because the Maybach and Benz are sharing an interior, neither of them are any good.
I'm still not sure why Acura is in this forum.
When you try to reinvent the wheel, you will screw it up (ask BMW).
Many vehicles share parts, styling cues, and layout with lower-priced cars. I can look at 3 different Mercedes front ends and not know what car I'm looking at.
Porsche only has one interior from what I can tell.
Everyone lives in a glass house on this one. :confuse:
The only maker who still can't make an interior livable is BMW. And I don't think they care!
DrFill
Too bad the folks in Bama at MBUSI still aren't on the same page. Better than the first generation ML for sure, but the R/GL/ML still aren't cut from the same German cloth.
M
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'm still waiting on a valid reason as to why the Range Rover doesn't stomp the ancient LX470?
You're the one using their prices so the problem lies with you and this fuzzy math. First the GL had a price in the 40K, now you're not able to get the actual sticker price right. You'll not find a GL anywhere for the prices you listed.
M
I'm not saying the Range Rover is not a good vehicle. I'm just saying I prefer the LX 470. That is why I own one. Since you own neither, just what is your beef?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Therefore the spirit and intention of the $60K price arena is more than met by real-life pricing, and further the GL represents MB's top tier SUV, and that also gives further merit to it's inclusion here. It's pretty darned obvious, for goodness sakes.
BTW, there is nothing wrong, IMO, with your preference for an LX470, however the Range Rover is indeed quite an incredible SUV. If its reliability was a bit better it would be even more appealing, IMO.
TagMan
But there were only 11 of those Hemi Cudas ever made, and not all of those are in existance anymore. With 300 of the Veyrons running around, It probably won't reach that kind of value. The main thing that makes American muscle so desirable nowadays is the fact that they were actually obtainable by the middle-class man. The Veyron is unobtainable by anybody other than the richest of the rich. And for a car that starts out that high to ever become a collector's item, it has to be a superluxury saloon. What sports car that costs that relative kind of money has ever fetched the bucks of a rare, superluxury saloon on the collector's market? I don't think any. I could be wrong.
The Shelby Cobra doesn't count. As expensive as it was in its day, a person still didn't have to heat their home with the flames of $100 bills to be able to buy one.
But you're starting to sound like AutoSpies in your fervor. The LS, while I wouldn't pick it over the German three, is a fine car. New one addresses the style issue (somewhat), and gives it a very good engine. Believe me, you don't want to end up like AutoSpies.
You have no idea how sick I am of hearing about "reliability" and "#1 in America." Hell on Earth doesn't seem to be a myth, after all. At least for car fans.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
I see CL550s (rarely, albeit) on the road now. Stunningly beautiful, in a brash way.
I'll have to drive it, and if it's good enough, I might have to sacrifice having a convertible.
If my wife ended up with an '07 S550 4Matic next year (yes, used), and I got the CL550 in a few years, that would be adorable. The two ultra-luxury Benzes!
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
The 7 Series interior isn't that bad, either. And the S-Class's is far better, believe me. Sit in it. Just the feel of the steering wheel will tell you.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Don't you think you should check the Mercedes website, and not just Edmunds?
GL320 CDI: $53,175
GL450: $55,675
And what's better about the LX470 than the Range Rover? I'd MUCH rather have a Range Rover, but I do like the way the LX looks.
Range Rover advantages:
Modern technology
Looks
Contemporary, beautifully finished interior
Engine
AWD system
Prestige/desirability/glamor
I want one
Game point, Range Rover.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
In terms of defining eligibility for inclusion here in this forum, MSRP plus typical options is the criteria.
So, my reference (unlike yours) to real-life pricing is not with regards to discounts or subsidies or promotions or ultimate selling prices, but rather the ultimate real-life typical retail price that results when typical options, packages and accessories are taken into account and added to the MSRP.
After I read your post, I figured I had better clarify that.
TagMan
Then by all means you have my permission to buy one.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460