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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Heavy rain? That's where the S8 shines, despite the low-pro tires.

    The S8 is a very good daily driver. It's just like driving an A8. just with a little more spice. Same ride compliance. Same quietness.....until.

    BTW: Houdini wants you to buy an LS. I believe you wanted to actually drive the car instead of being reduced to a floating coma. The LS is fine for that, but I'm of the driver type. LS and S8, it should be illegal to put the two of them in the same sentence because the follow two entirely different paths.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The whole point of this thread(or forum for that matter) is to bring people that love cars and at least know half of what they're talking about, together. Even Doc can talk with sense every blue moon.

    If that's your way of saying you agree with what I'm saying, I'll take it. As long as you've learned something!

    DrFill
  • rockshocka1rockshocka1 Member Posts: 310
    Tony, I'm not set on any one particular car, as I haven't made the rounds in any of them yet. August, when the boy heads off to school, is when I'll be pulling the trigger on something. Have been to the local Lexus & Mercedes dealers & they were both very courteous & not pushy. The Bride loves the Mercedes promises of complimentary car washes & massages on Saturdays. Was happy when the Audi got here finally, but hope the experience there will be better than at their other auto partner. Planning on checking out the BMW dealer this weekend for a peek at the 7.
  • rockshocka1rockshocka1 Member Posts: 310
    Actually, yeah, though went to a Div II school on the west side of the MO river. Handle was borrowed from an old Rage song. Missed the beaches. :shades:

    LS460 is on my list, sadly not the LWB. Just wouldn't leave enough room between the bumper & the garage door to be safe. Same reason I can't include the S. :cry:
  • rockshocka1rockshocka1 Member Posts: 310
    So, testing an A8 (also on the list) would be give me the general idea, since it's probably a given an S won't be on the lot? Just imagine the experience turned up to 11? :)

    It's only recently that I've been comfortable enough to consider any of these cars. I'm going to try a bunch & see which suits me best. Not ruling the LS out until I try it.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OK, so I drove the LS today. The car was an LS460L without the "touring" package. The vehicle was silver with a black interior and cherry/mahogany colored wood trim. I was given the keys (transmitter) and I was able to drive it without a salesman, so I was free to put it to the test. I drove a little around town to let it warm up, and couldn't help notice how quiet it was inside the car. Other traffic was there, but very quiet. I kept the stereo off. I already know it is a killer stereo, and I was there to hear the engine, the road, etc.

    I got on the freeway and hit the gas all the way. Nice and acceptable surge, but not what I would call a rocket. The gears shifted almost without notice, so silky smooth and quiet. I could hear much more road noise at freeway speeds than I expected... the muffled thumping of the roadway. A little annoying, but well within tolerance and otherwise this is a very quiet car.

    The steering is dead. There is no other way to say this. It is like a remote control device that is not connected to the car. Smooth, but dead.

    I then stepped fully on the gas as if to pass, and the car had this small pause and then went into a lower gear and was quickly on its way. That pause is definately noticeable, however, and was too long a search for the gear, IMO. Otherwise it was a very smooth maneuver.

    The brakes do indeed grab as you first apply them, but it is not severe. I was able to get used to it, although I wish it was never there to begin with. Other than that initial grab, they are fairly good, with just a hint of random grabbiness here and there, but always that little grab when first applied. The brakes should definately be better for a car in this tier, however.

    The driver's seat's comfort was very good, but felt a bit shallow. Overall no complaints with the levels of comfort, and adequate for a car of this price range. The roofline was a bit lower than I had remembered it. I tried to lower the seat, but it was all the way down. Headroom was adequate, but that's it. The room for rear passengers was huge, and is as good as anything to compare this car to.

    Ergonomics were OK, but there would be a learning curve with all the buttons and switches. Surprisingly, setting the performance switch to "power" didn't make any worthwhile significant difference, IMO. I noticed that the traction control could be turned off... as some might like.

    The climate control was quiet and worked very well.

    The interior fit was not as good as the car I saw at the Auto Show. I had a few minor complaints about the show car, but this car had too many irregularities at places where materials met, such as speaker grill and where plastic and leather met. I was surprised by that, and perhaps that is uncommon, I don't know. Maybe they are building these too fast, I don't know, but the workmanship was clearly not top tier, as it should have been. The amound of plastic and the layout of the interior did not make me feel like I was in a serious high end car. It truly did not.

    So after putting it through some more paces, overall, the handling was numb and the steering was remote. The brakes were a bit grabby at first touch. The ride was extremely smooth and quiet. The transmisison and the engine are well-matched, IMO, and there are no complaints to be had except for that small but noticeable lag when it searches for a passing gear.

    The styling did nothing for me at all. A large luxurious Camry, IMO. Sorry to those that love the LS, that I didn't like it more. I am giving it credit where it was deserved, and I will continue to respect Lexus for building a luxury car that is tops in reliability. There is nothing wrong with reliability. It's just boring, unfortunately, when it takes the form of this LS, IMO. I never had that feeling of excitement when driving it, or looking at it. I kept wondering, other than reliability and price, what's the attraction? It clearly must be price and reliability, because they are the ovbvious strong motivators to get someone to purchase this car over the competitors. Otherwise there is little reason to choose this car, IMO.

    I did feel a little special when I drove past older LS cars and ES cars, however. LOL.

    I left and went next door to the Audi dealer to see if there was an S8 in stock. Darn, there was not. I sat in an A8L to experience the interior.

    The interior of the Audi was absolutely without any question whatsoever, and without any bias or prejudice, superior to the LS interior in every single way, in it's execution and layout and appearance and craftsmanship. This particular comparison is all too obvious for debate... it so clearly speaks for itself. As far as the drive... that is to be continued another day... as are additional drives.

    I'll keep you all posted.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    And your interest in the LS is appreciated. Wish it had a more positive effect on you, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

    Did you find the steering accurate, but remote? Or overboosted? Any test of the handling, roll stiffness? I didn't find the car objecting to sharp corners, or loose body control.

    Did it stop with force, is it in anyway underperforming in braking?

    DrFill
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    found the LS to corner very flat, with with little to no body motion.

    That said, the car was out of my mind like a fart out of a bulls [non-permissible content removed] as soon as I stepped in and out of the S.

    Just no comparison.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Thanks Tagman for the LS review.

    Not exactly a driver's car but definitely a luxury car that is worth the price.

    The fact is that the A8, 7 series and S Class caters to a different type of driver altogether. And based on sales figures we all know those kind of drivers are not as prevalent in North America as they are in Europe or Asia.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    And your interest in the LS is appreciated. Wish it had a more positive effect on you, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

    Well, with the recent posts, I felt compelled to drive it and know the car first hand.

    Did you find the steering accurate, but remote? Or overboosted?

    Good question. I thought the steering was slightly vague at first, but I soon realized that it was the disconnection, or remote feel that was going on. Ultimately, the steering is accurate enough, and while there was more power boost than my preference, to be fair I would not call it overboosted.

    Any test of the handling, roll stiffness? I didn't find the car objecting to sharp corners, or loose body control.

    I would tend to agree with you, for the most part, but I will add that the car could definately put a little tighter suspension to good use, IMO, and it would be helpful. It was adequate, mind you, but I never felt like the car was a great dancer, if you know what I mean... just a wee bit too clumsy for that. But again, I'm not complaining about that. In that department it gets a passing grade, but to be fair, not an A+... more like a C+

    Did it stop with force, is it in anyway underperforming in braking?

    There's been a lot of talk about the brakes. Mostly negative. I mentioned that the brakes were indeed a bit grabby, but only at the very first initial pressure. After that, they are good, with only ocassional grabiness. The brakes stopped the car confidently, IMO, and I never had any sensation that they were weak. I certainly did not conduct my own stopping distance test, so that poor measurement is something we'll have to rely on. But I'll say they felt totally adequate in terms of braking power. It is just the grabby feel that is not quite up to standard for a car in this tier... as well as stopping distance, if those tests are true.

    Doc, if you have any more questions, feel free to ask me.

    As I have posted, the comfort and quietness are quite high on the scale. The engine / tranny marriage is a terrific one... such an incredibly smooth shifter... the only tranny issue is that lag when waiting for the tranny to go into pasing gear.

    I've already posted my complaints, so I see no reason to post them again.

    TagMan
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Tag----I to enjoyed your post, and found it very similar to my past experience with my last Lexus....I could almost feel exactly what you spoke of as I am so familiar with Lexus.....I`m sure it is an improvement over old, but still Lexus....I look forward to your experience with the A8...It is a really rounded auto, and I`m still enjoying it, except for this week as it is down where the sun shines and I am driving an older Honda accord of a friend..Enjoying the no frills, zippy drive...Tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tag----I to enjoyed your post, and found it very similar to my past experience with my last Lexus....I could almost feel exactly what you spoke of as I am so familiar with Lexus.....I`m sure it is an improvement over old, but still Lexus....I look forward to your experience with the A8...

    I'm trying to work out a couple of glitches in my schedule to drive the A8 and the S550 back to back, for a better comp. If I'm really lucky I'll drive them both tomorrow or Thursday. You'll know about it, I promise! :)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Speaking of Audi, here's just another feather in Audi's cap:

    link title

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Less than 10% of Mercedes sold in Europe are S-class. The overwhelming majority of Mercedes sold in Europe are A,B and C classes. The majority of E class sold in Europe are essentially taxicab varieties that have are more lowly equipped than the lowest E class sold here in the US, with 1.8L, 2L, 2.2L, and 2.8L engines.

    2006 witnessed Lexus sales in Europe increase by 76%! Lexus is just getting started there.

    The LS sales in Europe are something less than 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of the S-Class

    Considering that only about 100k S class were sold worldwide last year. 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of 100k cars would be like, hmm, a license bracket? a screw or some paint chip? Are you sure that Lexus dealers in Europe did not even manage to sell a license bracket or a few screws for an LS? Lack of math skills really does not contribute to the strength of anyone's argument.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The difference between S320 pricing in 2005 and 300D in 1983 is 22 years, the same two decades in which MB did a thorough hash job of trashing its reliability reputation. History is the only guidance we have for anticipating future. Unless you believe the marque prestige of S class is only 10 months old, history certainly matters . . . a bit ironic if MB advocates need to be reminded of that.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Thanks for your thoughts, tagman. In my brief drives at TOL I too felt the steering was too light.

    It sounds like you didn't have a car with the air suspension....that would have had a switch with a "sport" setting for the suspension (as distinguished from the "power/normal/snow" switch, which all cars including air suspension cars have, that governs the drivetrain, primarily keeping the car in lower gears longer when in power mode). Don't know how much of a difference the "sport" switch makes to handling characteristics, as I drove both times in "sport"....and I didn't drive the 7 or S at that event because the lines were overly long.

    The hesitation issue is something that there was a TSB for on the old LS....dealers could fix it at no cost. I'm surprised the problem is still there on the new LS...that's a failure on Lexus' part.

    I am more and more attracted to the A8, exterior-styling-wise, and at this point view it as prettier than the S. Haven't driven either, but from what I understand, I am probably going to prefer the ride of the S over the A8. Anyway, those 2 and the LS are on my shopping list for next winter, once the LS460 AWD is hopefully available.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well here you go, grandstanding again! Crawling out of a Porsche and climbing into any luxury sedan is going to leave the luxury sedan somewhat wanting in the "feel" dept, don't you think?

    It would be sort of like jumping on a trampoline and then just jumping up and down on the floor. Big difference in perception.

    Of course we all know how unreliable first hand experience and eye witness accounts can be. So what are you going to believe, your own faulty and imperfect impressions or what your ol' buddy Houdini tells you?

    Okay, I'm kidding. Good post and I enjoyed it. You are to be commended for actually going out and driving one of the autos that we endlessly discuss here. Good job. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "DaimlerChrysler executives are working on a secret restructuring plan dubbed "Project X", to be unveiled on Feb. 14, which calls for unprecedented sharing of vehicle architectures and parts between Chrysler and Mercedes, including developing small cars and SUVs together, the report added.

    The newspaper also reported that the plan outlines deep cost cuts, plant closings, a reduction of factory shifts and employee buyouts aimed at slashing more than 10,000 blue-collar jobs. The likely closures will include an assembly plant in Newark, Del., and an engine plant in Detroit.

    The newspaper, citing people familiar with the situation, said Chrysler and Mercedes will collaborate on their next generation of small cars built in the U.S. and Germany. Also, work is under way on a common SUV architecture for the Mercedes M-class and Chrysler's Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango.

    Besides developing vehicles together, Project X calls for Chrysler and Mercedes to expand purchasing of common parts like steering columns, and to source more components from low-wage nations in Asia, the newspaper said." -C&D

    Not good. I would hope that the 2015 C-class isn't a rebadged Chrysler Sebring.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    "DaimlerChrysler executives are working on a secret restructuring plan dubbed "Project X", to be unveiled on Feb. 14, which calls for unprecedented sharing of vehicle architectures and parts between Chrysler and Mercedes, including developing small cars and SUVs together, the report added.

    How appropriate that the unprecedented "sharing" will be announced on Valentines Day!

    TagMan
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Maybe they'll say it by exchanging personalized M&Ms

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  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    How appropriate that the unprecedented "sharing" will be announced on Valentines Day!

    The dates of Feb. 14, 2007 and Feb. 14, 1929 will both be remembered by both MB fans and Chicagoans as The St. Valentine's Day Massacre. :sick:

    Lexusguy I hate saying these words but I will say them anyways---"I Told You So" :P
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    My point was that you were wrong when you claimed that the $20K difference between the current LS and S Class disappears . Both cars are currently hot sellers and both of them are within their first year of introduction. MSRP is highly relevant and great lease deals are scant for both of them.

    That's all nothing more.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    are we discussing cars, or candy?
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Both cars have been discounted ever since the new LS has propagated through the distribution network. Full MSRP is only close to reality for about 8 months in a 6-8 year model cycle when only one of them is a brand new design. As soon as competition is there readily available, discounting starts for both. That's just how capitalistic markets work. Using the first 8 months of S market premium when the new LS was not even on the market as a guage to assess the real market premium of S marque is quite erroneous. Even in those first 8 months, only a minority went out and got an S class without a put option at the other end of its first-owner service life.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Full MSRP is only close to reality for about 8 months in a 6-8 year model cycle when only one of them is a brand new design.

    If you can prove that... which we will have to wait and see if you can.... it doesn't address the point anyway about your other erroneous statement concerning the $20K. Unless you can substantiate and/or source these wild statements, they have little meaning other than to exercise the imagination.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Tag, are you actually demanding proof that cars get discounted in the bulk of a model cycle? Both S and LS are being discounted now even as we speak. How long has S been on the market? The $20k was cited as evidence of the marque value of S over LS. Since neither S or LS are marques invented for Model Year 07, we have a very good track record of what kind of premiums each marque really command in the market place for much of a typical model cycle. One has to have no prior experience with this segment at all in order to characterize my statements as "wild"; either that, or have too short of a memory :-)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "L'Equipe, France's biggest automotive authority compared the top luxury cars against each other.

    The results:

    1. Mercedes Benz S500

    2. Audi A8

    3. Jaguar XJ8

    4. BMW 750i

    5. Lexus LS460 "

    Pretty much confirms my opinion of the BMW 7. It doesn't really belong in a category where luxury is and should be emphasized.

    Motivates me to drive the A8! :shades:
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Audi always does quite well in emerging markets; Korean market only opened up to imports by removing astronomical tariffs in recent years; the current run-rate, as the article indicated, is only about 4k cars a month, all imports combined, still very small market for imports (set to grow exponentially, I'm sure, just like most other emerging markets). A6 with 4-cyl turbo or 5-cyl is a very decent market entry in markets where gas is expensive and most local cars are still in the sub-2liter range; the size is right too for "executive sedan" for many of those markets.

    Interesting to note from the same article, however, the best sellig imported HELC there is actually the LS460. I would have thought Japanese imports would have faced non-economicly-based objections in the Korean market. Perhaps Lexus should offer an ES250 to do battle with the A6 2.4 in markets like Korea; the 3.5 liter engine in ES350 is just too big where gas is expensive.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Just in! Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz worldwide sales for the month of January:

    BMW- 80,629

    Audi- 75,150

    Mercedes-Benz- 73,500

    Yes, you read that right. As of now, Audi is ahead of Mercedes. Perhaps the trend will continue and Audi will be #2 this year. Nonetheless, all are very close.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    we have a very good track record of what kind of premiums each marque really command in the market place for much of a typical model cycle.

    Where is this track record you speak of? Who has the data on it?

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Your test of the LS basically corraborated what I thought of the new LS.

    Is a good luxury, but the execution is just not there and thus the is not pace-setting as some would like to believe.

    The interior for me is the biggest letdown. The grade of plastics used are not up to par with these prices, and are making GM look quite good.(the new GMT900 truck/SUV interiors are world class now). Was not expecting much in the way of a radical shift in performance as that is not what the LS is about. It would for sure lose it's core customer base if they build a 7 or A8 chaser in terms of performance.

    The usual Lexus qualities are ever present: Tranquility, practicality, and luxury.

    But the value is long gone considering that the LWB is priced matching the S-Class with options. It closes in on 100k(the unit I drove was 94.5k)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Glad to be of service.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "BMW-80,629"

    Yes!!!

    A fine tribute to the Chris Bangle world-wide revolution!
    He gave BMW a well-needed sales catalyst with his amazing creations.

    Predictably, other manufacturers are attempting to plag...ummm..."copy" his inspirations; unsuccessfully, I might add! :shades:

    With the anticipation of the BMW diesels soon to be in the USA and then liquid hydrogen (by 2020 in the USA) with virtually zero emissions (with 9 speed records) combined with Chris Bangle's innovations in design, there will be no stopping BMW!! :surprise:
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    link title

    No, I'm not the person offering it up for sale, just thought it was interesting.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    A report on Fourtitude says that Audi will release both the A5, and S5 at the same time sometime this fall. They will both debut at the Geneva auto show in March.

    This new platform [MLP] pushes everything back from over the front axle. This new engineering, while still not offering perfect 50/50 weight distribution, puts Audi in a better place to knock the 3 series from the throne than any other manufacturer IMO.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This new engineering, while still not offering perfect 50/50 weight distribution, puts Audi in a better place to knock the 3 series from the throne, than any other manufacturer IMO.

    Personally, I don't think anyone will knock the 3-series off the throne... just make little dents here and there.

    Consider another contender to come... the new C-Class AMG variant may turn out to be a genuine monster delivering real numbers to back it up.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Tag, lets not forget the the new CTS, which coincidentally, has near 50/50 weight distribution and is now over the magical 300hp barrier now.
  • eric312eric312 Member Posts: 71
    I am thinking about leasing a used
    745i/S500/CLS500 and would like to find out what are the pros/cons of each car.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Hemi - Are you talking about the '08 CTS that arrives this fall? That's a 300hp V6 with AWD available. I'd be concerned about torque out of that 6 cylinder. The new M3 will be a V8.

    TagMan
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    doesn't come with a stick in the highest power offering.[what are they thinking] and Cadillac has a way to go to convince me of anything. [see Lexus]

    But there's more to it than weight distribution, although that's a lot. Steering, gear box, chassis. All those things come in to play.

    Look how great Porsche is with completely ridiculous weight distribution.

    Infiniti hasn't done it yet because of quality of materials, and a poor clutch. Audi's got those thing's better than BMW IMO.

    Oh well, can't wait for Geneva.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Didn't know Caddy missed the manual on the top engine.

    Haven't I seen this mistake before?

    Leave it to GM to stand in it's own way. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Both engines offer a six-spped manual.

    DrFill
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Mercedes and Audi diesels were clearly a step ahead of BMW's. BMW had stated only a few weeks ago that they would not bring diesels to the United States. There's peer pressure for ya!

    IMO, the perfect everyday driver would be a 335dxi coupe. I'd love that as a winter car- but even a gas 335xi coupe would be wonderful. I might have to settle for a 328xi if that doesn't come out. I don't want the sedan.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Where is this track record you speak of? Who has the data on it?

    MB and Lexus have been battling each other out in the HELC field for over a decade and half. There have been many years of real life pricing history for anyone who have bothered to pay attention, or old enough to have done that.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Where did you see that about no BMW diesels?

    I just searched "BMW diesels in the USA" and the first two things that came up were "BMW 5 series diesels by 2009" and BMW diesels by 2008."
    Didn't see anything about no BMW diesels in the USA.

    What BMW did do was reject an alliance with MB to use Bluetec diesel technology.

    Trust me on this one: Since MB has Bluetec diesel here already, BMW will soon follow with its own comparable diesel system-hopefully married to its dynamite (according to the reviews) twin-turbo!
    I will be regularly calling my dealer for him to get a twin-turbo demo for me to drive! Hope that will be sooner rather than later. How can the dealer be so out of touch with what's going on?
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Just out of curiosity, what kind of turbo compressor does the current BMW diesel in Europe have? I'm assuming any BMW diesel engine in the 2.5-3L range would have to be turbo; otherwise, the engine would produce something like 70hp due to the way diesel fuel burn.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I am not too familiar with the technical thermodynamics at work here. I know that at low engine speeds the smaller turbo works and and the larger turbo functions at higher engine speeds.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    MB and Lexus have been battling each other out in the HELC field for over a decade and half. There have been many years of real life pricing history for anyone who have bothered to pay attention, or old enough to have done that.

    That doesn't answer my question. You've been applying quantitative measurements and amounts, such as when you applied an 8-month time span for realizing high prices in a new model's life cycle, and when you applied a $20K dollar figure in your post to Dewey. What I'm asking is where you get your data from. As you say in this post there is a history for those that pay attention, and generally those that pay the closest attention have compiled statistics, such as Ward's or JD Powers and others. When you are stating specific numbers instead of general processes, then there ought to be a source for your data. I have no disagreement with the general processes at work here, but I don't know where you sourced your specific numbers from or what method or analysis you used to calculate or derive them... in order to support your quantitative claims.

    TagMan
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    "Just out of curiosity, what kind of turbo compressor does the current BMW diesel in Europe have?"

    530d BMW has two turbos, as hpowders says. I am not familiar with its mechanics nor with those of Series 7 BMW diesel.

    My 2004 530d (manual, 6 gears) has one turbo, with the following characteristics:

    3 liters, 6 cyl. with 4 valves per cyl., compression 17:1

    5500 rpm, autolimited.

    Max. velocity: 152.24 miles per hour, autolimited

    Turbo compressor with variable geometry. It entries at 1000 rpm. No delay in the acceleration at this or any other moment when stepping down the pedal.

    Common Rail 'DDE' injection, 4 injections per cyl per cycle, at a maximum of 1600 bares each, electronically controlled.

    218 hp (recent models have more)

    368.75 lb/foot max torque at 2000 rpm. Then the curve smoothly steps down until 4000 rpm. From there on it falls abruptly

    Consume with my driving (after three years, 47850 miles, 76% sporty road and 24% quiet town):
    36.3 miles per gallon in highway & mountain roads
    19.99 miles per galon in town
    30.7 miles per galon on the average

    All measures are given in USA units.

    And yes, you can drive sportively this car.

    It is a pleasure driving and riding it everyday. It is my first diesel. It is exact at corners, quick, quiet and smooth. There is reason to believe that Lexus is not so well sold as BMW, Audis and MB in Europe because Lexus has no offer of diesel models. This indeed applies for LPS and HELC niches. Even whithin the LPS and HELC range, more than 50% of the cars sold now in Europe are diesels. In fact, the percentage is up to 70% across European countries.

    It has been a few months since my last posting. But I have followed the discussions almost dayly :) .
    Regards from Spain,
    Jose
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I was not the one who originally brought up the $20k figure. Please make attributions with care. Neither Ward nor JD Powers publish data on discounting. On the other hand, the world of information happens to be a little bigger than what Ward, JD Powers and other industry ad-dependent rags choose to publish. You can see real market price by looking at ads. Somewhere between what the manufacters advertise and what the dealers advertise is the market clearing price point; the manufacturer are making real life price suggestions all the time with their own ads and promotions. I had been assuming that you had been an observer of this market segment for at least a few years. I may have been mistaken in that assumption.
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