Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

High End Luxury Cars

1451452454456457463

Comments

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Howard,

    now that news is definitely worthy of confetti. ;)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Cargo space and seating count are inherent characteristics of every car at every price, too. How many people buying HELC are going to base their decision primarily on cargo space or seat count?

    For HELC, cargo space, seat count and handling only need to be "adequate," as Rolls-Royce so eloquently described the power output its cars . . . the focus being on luxury and pindrop silence!

    But, if the purchase of a HELC was mine to make at this time, I would definately base my decision on handling as one of the more important criteria.

    That's a classic cop-out. MB makes no money from "if's" and "would's." It was a purchase decision for you to make; you made it, and as someone who cares very much about handling, you got something other than HELC. That's my point. It makes no sense to get either S or 7 for someone who makes purchase decision based on handling: 5 series with identical V8 handles much better, not to mention real handlers like 911 for about the same price.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Handling is not important for HELCs?

    Performance is not important?

    Seating and cargo is not important?

    And pindrop silence is?

    I am thankful that you are here to tell us exactly what a HELC is. Makes me wonder how everyone else in the world can figure out what a HELC is without you :confuse:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    That's a classic cop-out. MB makes no money from "if's" and "would's." It was a purchase decision for you to make; you made it, and as someone who cares very much about handling, you got something other than HELC. That's my point.

    For HELC, cargo space, seat count and handling only need to be "adequate

    We already bought a HELC for my wife. She doesn't care about handling. But cargo space and seat count and seat space and appearance were big on her list of priorities.

    I drove the S550 and LS460L to have first hand experience with them, so that when I comment on them here in the forum, I know exactly first hand what they are truly like, in addition to to all the reading about them.

    Have you tested them to gain first hand knowledge? Do you own a HELC?

    ANYONE that would suggest that handling is not a relevant characteristic of EVERY car, does not know what a car is. It doesn't have to be important to all or any, but it exists nonetheless.

    And I suppose that swinging a bat, or running bases aren't characteristics of baseball.

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Don't you think people can and will set their own priority lists? What's important to one person may be lower on someone else's list (or not even show up). That really has nothing to do with what cars we find in the high end luxury class.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Thank you, Pat. Even my wife's and my priorities for a HELC are very different, but certainly hers are as valid as mine. A perfect example of what you are saying.
    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I posted this on the Luxury Lounge forum, but I just know that hpowders, Dewey, and others will appreciate this.

    "German automaker Bayerische Motoren Werke AG is the world’s largest luxury automaker and the company has said in a statement that its profit rose 28 percent to a record..."

    link title

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    In post 24196... the words

    "For HELC, cargo space, seat count and handling only need to be "adequate"

    should have been italicized, as I intended to display brightness's previous statement.

    Those words are not my own, nor do I agree with them. If the host can italicize them, I would appreciate it.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I did not read the Brightness's post as trying to set priorities for others. His point, I believe, is the same as yours. Different people have different priorities and not everyones top priority, especially for HELCS, is handling.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    He posted that handling has no relevance at all to HELC... and that it wasn't even part of the definition according to the forum.

    Handling is a characteristic of ALL cars, HELC included. The importance is another matter, as Pat pointed out.

    Here is his post # 24182:
    HELC is not about handling. Read the tagline of the forum.

    In post 24194 brightness stated: For HELC, cargo space, seat count and handling only need to be "adequate,"

    This time, brightness dictated the importance level of handling is that it only needs to be "adequate". Again, as Pat pointed out, to each his own.

    So, I'm sorry, but brightness did indeed first say that handling had no relevance, and then he said it only needed to be "adequate". Both his posts contradicted himself, and both of his posts are contrary to the idea of each person setting his own priorities for the characteristic of handling, which does indeed exist on a HELC, contrary to his first post.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes, Dewey. BMW is firing on all cylinders. :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes. I previously posted that BMW had record 2006 profits; the best year in history according to CE Reithofer.
    I don't know if this would have been possible without the direct participation of Dewey and me. :blush:

    PS: Interesting and to the point: BMW is looking over their shoulder at Audi and I don't blame them. :surprise:

    The perfect vehicle for me would have BMW handling with an Audi interior and a refreshingly normal push button radio! ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The perfect vehicle for me would have BMW handling with an Audi interior and a refreshingly normal push button radio!

    Sorry I wholeheartedly disagree with you there. A normal push button radio sounds far too radical and simple to me. I kind of like having my brain teased by idrive. At least it excercises my mind and keeps my brain young :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Not necessarily. The Z4M is what a Motorsport car should be, rude and crude. Lotus also hasn't become infatuated with computers and iDrive style control systems. Then you have cars like the Ariel Atom, which is an Elise without all the unnecessary extras, like a windshield and body.

    There were roadsters back in 88 that were superior to the M3. My point was that a rude and crude auto like like the 88 M3 was a wonder to behold especially when you can use it to go to the track and in the next hour pick up the kids and go to the store for groceries.

    Try doing that with an Ariel Atom.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    So packaging, as you say it, has everything to do with why MB stopped using I6 designs in the early '90's. So the 96-'03 I-6 TurboDiesel was not an inline design. Your posts are getting more irratic by the minute.

    As with any good thing, why change it. BMW has been the kings of handling for years. Why? A simple 4-strut suspension that only God knows how they actually tune it for optimal comfort/performance combo.

    BMW has some of the sweetest sounding, performing, longest-lasting engines in the biz. Why? An I-6 design has an inherit nature of sounding better than a standard V6. The inline engine design enables it to naturally genarate more power from a much smaller pkg than a conventional V6. And the design also permits the engine to last longer due to less stress and moving parts than most engines.

    Hope this quick tutorial helps.

    BTW: You say that engines developed "engine oil jellying problems shortly after 100k miles."

    Sorry to hear that, but you must adhere to the strict mainatenance guidelines set forth by BMW in order to acheive maximum longevity out of the engine.

    Mabye that's why the Toyota 3.0L V6 never has this problem, oh wait, I think it does in SOME cases, not all.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Good post.
    TM
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Wow! $11,345 support on 7 series! Wonders of financial engineering

    It is a shame to see a once proud company reduced to discounting like this. I hope they can get it together and pull out of their tailspin. I wonder if their problem is poor management or just inferior cars? Hopefully they can find someone to team up with and pull them through. If it wasn't for the Mini they would really be in bad shape.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well you could be right, Dewey.

    As a self-made retiree, I guess the challenge of iDrive helps prevent the deterioration of my non-regenerative brain cells.
    I should try and preserve the 2 or 3 I have left!

    Quite honestly, the iDrive is certainly not as difficult to use as the media have made it out to be.

    Certainly though, when traveling to a different state or province in your case, having radio tuning embedded deeply within the bowels of iDrive is a bad idea. That's why I bring CD's with me when I travel across long distances.

    On another note, I imagine the incredible results posted by BMW today has made you as proud of this great company as I am.
    Absolutely brilliant management combined with the best performing vehicles across every segment BMW participates in, from ELPS to LPS to HELC to SUV's to touring vehicles, along with breathtaking Bangle styling has made BMW the envy of the automotive industry. Imagine raising the stock dividend over 9%!

    Now if only BMW would divorce itself from that ridiculous little thing they call the "Mini." :shades:
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    A driving machine with style! No discounts in that corner of the showroom. ;)

    Wish BMW could duplicate that. BMWs get less appealing the higher you go. :sick:

    DrFill
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    "I should try and preserve the 2 or 3 (neurons) I have left!"

    Be careful. When only one left, you will be levelled with the prime ministers and presidents of all countries :sick: No more BMWs to drive thereafter.

    Jose ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "When only one (neuron) left, you will be levelled with the prime ministers and presidents of all countries."

    Yes I have noticed that the best-qualified, really smart people usually wind up as "advisors", rarely getting the top job.

    Of course the CE of BMW, Herr Reithofer, proves to be a brilliant exception! :)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Hp, there is a 2008 BMW 5 series brochure posted on the "Luxury Performance Sedan" forum that you will like. Nice. See post #9193.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    "Incentives stand at an average of $4,125 per vehicle, which is about 60 percent higher compared to Mercedes ($2,573) and Audi ($2,607). Most of these discounts are related to BMW's active move into competitive lease deals," the report said.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks. I did see the brochure. To my eyes, the 2008 interior looks pretty much like what they are offering now, which to me means drab and boring.

    3 BMW's. Pretty much the same interior. The only difference is the wood strip gets wider as one proceeds up the price ladder!

    BMW is supposedly looking over their shoulder at Audi.
    Apparently, they are not too worried.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Audi sales are still a tiny fraction of BMW's, especially at the 5 and 7 level. At least in this market anyway. In Europe you can bet BMW is very worried about Audi. In the states Audi still needs to work on their marketing, especially on the A6 and A8. Their rapidly expanding lineup is great, but they need the core models to sell, first.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm just not as worried about BMW as some of you suggest. While Lexus and even Audi and Mercedes will take a little bite out of BMW, BMW will bite back hard with newer models, performance enhancements, and innovative technology.

    The BMW interiors haven't stopped buyers, and the X5 is an example of the direction BMW interiors can take. People like the focus on performance and handling, regardless of what some have posted recently, and BMW delivers in spades.

    They are leaders in design as well. Just look how BMW shook the world with their recent designs, and nearly everyone paid attention and many followed, even Lexus.

    BMW's engines are some of the best on the planet.

    Dramatic styling coupled with invigorating performance makes a great formula.

    I'd sure love to have their upcoming 335i twin-turbo retractible hardtop convertible.

    Throw in the towel regarding BMW? No way. Not me!

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    So packaging, as you say it, has everything to do with why MB stopped using I6 designs in the early '90's. So the 96-'03 I-6 TurboDiesel was not an inline design. Your posts are getting more irratic by the minute . . . Hope this quick tutorial helps.

    The 96-03 turbodiesel simply had an old design. The first modern production MB V6 was put into 1998 C280 gasoline car about a decade ago. The decision to switch from I6 to V6 for packaging was made in the early 90's; it took years to work out an entirely new engine design. While I'm willing and eager to learn something new every day, considering the relative knowledge base involved between the two of us, I don't think gratuitous personal insults helps your argument.

    Sorry to hear that, but you must adhere to the strict mainatenance guidelines set forth by BMW in order to acheive maximum longevity out of the engine.

    I changed oil every 3000 miles at the dealership. There was no free maintenance program back then.

    Mabye that's why the Toyota 3.0L V6 never has this problem, oh wait, I think it does in SOME cases, not all.

    Regardless whether Toyota did or did not, how does that help with your argument regarding BMW easily lasting 200k miles? For what it's worth, one of my two 5 series also had a complete transmission breakdown shortly after 100k miles.
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Yes, in Europe BMW should be worried about Audi. Audi is getting a bigger share of the cake year after year.

    Yet Audi has taken 30 years to overtake MB and blow into BMW ear. I remember when at the end of the Seventies of the last Century Audi was seen as a mere third thought well behind MB and BMW. Audi has been perseverant all that time, no doubt.

    Audi success here has also taken advantage of its smart management of its racing division, IMO. Audi has not only built winning cars for Le Mans but also for national and intra-european Series. To the latter, with cars based on modified street models. This gives Audi a label of appealing sportiness and glamour which is much like that of BMW but blended with more glowing interiors.

    I wonder whether Audi is preparing a better selling strategy in the USA or it is patiently waiting to some opportunity in the future.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I certainly hope BMW sticks around for a long time, and continue to provide us consumers with fabulous deals (two somewhat conflicting wishes :-)

    BMW can afford to be an "also-run" in the 7 series market segment. Heavy discounting on brand new X5 is also marginally okay since it's not their core competence. Some of the mistakes with regarding the 3 series however are very problematic because that's BMW's core competence. Take for example, the run-flats, it's a clear case of making packaging a higher priority than handling; run-flats simply do not make for good handling. That compromise would have been fine with 7 series HELC, and X5 SUV/SAV, but 3 series?? If the platform is that desperate for packaging requirement, the company should have considered plunking down more money and work on a shorter engine instead of adopting those poor-handling run-flats . . . while they still have the money.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Yeh, I know it isn't the most elegant piece of econometric analysis, but just for chuckles I compared asking prices on Cars.com for the 7 Series vs. the S Class. I set the parameters at a max spending level of 45K and the vehicle must be within 500 miles of Block Island.

    When the dust had settled the pricing seems to be the same between brands. Options didn't seem to count for much, although colors did. For just under 45K you could pick up a well whipped 05 S Class with 50,000 miles from a variety of NY metro area leasing companies. Some AWD and some RWD. It didn't affect the price. For the same price you could get an '04 with only 30-35,000 miles from a legit new car dealer and for, again the same price, you could get a Starmarked '03 S Class from a MB dealer. Naturally, the white and gold colored S Classes were cheaper.

    The 7 Series came out to be priced the same as the above, maybe a $1000 or so less. They seemed to have less mileage though and fewer were for sale by leasing companies. (Maybe more are privately owned or more reliability problems kept them from racking up the miles?).

    Curiously, there wasn't much room between a used S Class and a used optioned out E Class such as an E500 AWD of the same model year. If you were willing to spend a couple of thousand dollars more and "forgive" maybe 10,000 additional miles you could buy an S Class for the same price as an E Class. As a side note (I think the economists call it a "lema"), buying a new E Class seems foolish with lots of used '06 E Classes out there at 45K asking when MSRP is roughly 57K with leather and a roof. The vast number of E Classes sold in the East and the narrow array of colors and options turn them into a commodity item when used.

    YMMV
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Is it true? Ford sold a stake of Aston Martin to some private investors this week?

    This could the start of the big deluge.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm not surprised, supposedly Aston has been on the block for awhile. I'm pretty sure they still plan to keep the rest of PAG in house.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I thought there was one of those large corporate designers that was interested weeks ago?

    TagMan

    Edit:

    Well, I guess not... this says otherwise:

    link title
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    I've read (yesterday) that Ford sells Aston-Martin to a group of investors lead by David Richards. News also said that the main reason is to get fresh money ($ 925 M) to refloat Ford itself. Ford Motor Co. will continue however having an Aston-Martin share of $ 77 M.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    News also said that the main reason is to get fresh money ($ 925 M) to refloat Ford itself.

    Unfortunately thats only a small fraction of the $12B the restructuring is going to cost, and thats *if* way forward Mulally edition actually goes anywhere.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Interestingly, Ford will maintain a $77 million investment in the company.

    Here's the story:

    link title

    Good thing we defended Kuwait with operation "Desert Storm"... now Kuwait-based Dar and Adeem Investment Co. can be part of the purchase.

    TagMan
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    My Goodness where are you...?? Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm still around, Tony.

    Thanks for asking! :)

    Still thinking of getting a BMW?
  • erobbinserobbins Member Posts: 2
    There have been talks for sometime about BMW coming out with an X7. Can anyone confirm if this is indeed true and if so, when? I am currently in the market for a high full size SUV. I prefer a full seat that sits high and this is more prevalant in domestics than foriegn cars. I am 6'5 and my only choice seems to be the Range Rover - which I really like, but I am curious to find out about the X7.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    An X6 is around the corner. I'm not sure about an X7. These actually could be one in the same, depending upon how they badge it. Or there will be two larger SUVs, which I doubt. Either way, you'll wait long enough to do something else now.

    The Range Rover that you said you really like, however, is quite a machine, and is available now. If you've got the green, then I'd say you've already found your ride.

    Enjoy if for a while, and then if BMW builds something that by some chance you like better, then you can always follow up with that.

    TagMan
  • erobbinserobbins Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the feedback. I do love the Range and the way it looks. I do wish it had an MP3 jack and some other gadgets, but overall the truck is beautiful. I am not a fan of the rims. I may need to upgrade to the 20". I do like the rims on the supercharged, but I live in the city so it's overkill.

    Thanks again,

    Eric
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I assume you have already tried the Lexus LX470. If not please do yourself a favor and at least give it a try. There should be some pretty good deals right now. I have had one for almost 4 years and it is the best vehicle of any kind I have ever had. Great hiway cruiser.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Hi H

    I would consider one if they made a vast improvement in the materials on the inside....The swb Audi has been a good car, and very easy to live with, so I`l have it a couple of more years, or until something come along that is worth while---very worthwhile....I am not a big fan of all the gadgets that come along---that I feel I must have---and then never use...On the Lexus I used the cruise control with sensors, but on the Audi I rarely use it , even though it is better,as the driving experience is so much better...I have been lucky not getting a ticket, but that is what the Audi is all about...I find the seat cooler to be a waste, along with the cruise control..Thats about five thousand right there...The little things that come standard are very much appreciated, and one thing---the solar panel in the moonroof that keeps the car fresh is wonderful...Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I know that it's hard to tell from a photo, Tony, but one of the 2008 550 interior shots unfortunately looks like more of the tired "same old, same old." In the brochure, BMW admits that it would be hard to tell the current 550i from the 2008 version.

    I guess BMW is satisfied to rest on their considerable performance laurels which had me hooked since 1993 despite their boring interiors.

    Since BMW offers the best balanced and exciting to drive vehicles in all sedan segments, they must figure that prospective and continuing customers will overlook their drab interiors, and the company's explosive and continuing success proves they are correct.

    I just may have to go with an SUV next time around. I really need a vehicle with at least 70 cubic feet of space out back. The folding rear seats in the 545 just don't do it.
    So sedans will be off my list since I only have room for one vehicle in my garage and my wife doesn't drive.

    I hate the X5, having sat in it recently and having already driven the choppy 2005 version, which left me unimpressed.

    The only vehicles I would consider are the Audi Q7, the Porsche Cayenne or dare I say it, a loaded Acura MDX; although this last choice would have to REALLY impress me with its driving dynamics to be seriously considered.

    I hope diesel versions of one or more of the above are available by the summer of 2008, when I have to part company with the 545.

    So, that's the reason for my restricted posting here lately.
    Looks like no HELC in my immediate future.... :(
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    How come you need so much storage room? Is it you anticipate a return to the North East? I saw a Porsche-as you describe, down in Miami...The one I saw had the absolutely best looking interior--to my just brief glimpse--I have ever seen in a suv...I would think the price to match...I also took a look at the Audi when I was getting the mmi fixed..The interior was refined and comfortable and the price (Ithink)was say mid forties...I`m sure with the larger engine and interior improvements, it would be sixtys.Frankly the most reasonable probably would be the MDX, as they build an all around good vehicle(from my military days)..Knowing how you check things out I am sure whatever you choose will be smart and the best...I`m counting on you to help me with my next car...Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm heavy into road biking, Tony and will be traveling a lot in the future with my bikes. Since I'm a leasee and not a buyer, I won't take the chance of scratching a vehicle by attaching bikes outside on any vehicle. Less risky loading them in the back with rear seats down.

    I agree with you about the MDX-a good buy or lease now that it's been "out there" for a while, and the reviews have been positive, but faux wood?

    Porsche charges an outrageous 7.3% to lease a Cayenne and I have a feeling there would be limited wiggle room with them.

    I'm sure I could do well on a Q7 lease.

    Next year at this time, I will check these three out.

    As an admirer of great engines and exciting performance, I'm sure I will like the Porsche best, but as a serious and unwavering value shopper, the choice will most likely come down to Audi vs Acura.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I do like the rims on the supercharged, but I live in the city so it's overkill.

    Yeah, definately always better to change the rims on the vehicle you actually like... and then add the rims you like to make it just right. It's amazing what a great set of rims will do for almost any vehicle. If you get that Range Rover, be sure to let us know. I'll be jealous, cause I really want one.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    hpowders - when it comes to the BMW, you typically have indicated that you don't care too much about the interior because the car has a higher priority. But when it comes to the MDX, why do you care so much about the interior? From the same perspective, the MDX also has a higher priority and does it very well, just like the Bimmer does what it is supposed to do very well.

    Also, IMO, the BMW interiors are to-the-point, not overly gaudy, and they are purposeful, no-nonsense, and deliberate, without detracting from what the cars are all about... driving. There is something to be said for that, and many seem to agree.

    Questions for you --- What about the X5? It's got the improved interior, that's for sure, and it's a Bimmer. Aren't there any good leases on the X5? I was under the impression that the X5 is one of the models that is getting the latest round of super lease deals.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    It's more the principle of the thing. Who wants to get a "luxury" vehicle with faux wood? However, upon driving it and checking the front seat comfort and 83 cc ft of space and the price, I may just forget about the phony wood. The 2008 version may have real wood, but I doubt it.

    The interest rate on the X5 4.8 right now is 5.04%, fairly high for a BMW lease.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The interest rate on the X5 4.8 right now is 5.04%, fairly high for a BMW lease.

    But, I had thought that the residual was being pumped up to more than make up for that... resulting in a very attractive monthly payment.

    TagMan
Sign In or Register to comment.