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Gosh, Pat... How dare you single out Hpowders like that and lay into him so harshly for all that off-topic discussion!! You should be ashamed of yourself!! And to think I used to like you!!
Seriously though, I was surprised that Tony might have misunderstood, but rest assured your stellar reputation is still intact, and it was certainly nice of you to make sure that your forum exchange with those posts was understood by all. It reflects that that's the kind of good person you really are. (underneath that crusty exterior, of course )
TagMan
Again I ask - does anyone want to talk about any of the topical vehicles??
(Thanks tagman.)
On to the higher end of our running discussion, I received an additional response from Bentley...I had thought about them but got the Audi insted... `The Pride of Crewe``The Bentley Brooklands....Four seat coupe ..530 hp engine...Imperious,unmistakable, and only 550 examples in it`s lifetime...Please join us April 17.....I couldn`t as I got home too late..
What I can see of it, it looks good, and I would think enjoyable in a setting like the up`scale` beaches of the world, unlike where I think a ls460h would fit in--big city for it-- Further I would worry myself sick that it would get dented, so that would take the fun out of it for me..Tony
You guys have just got to read this article on the LS600hL. It will completely support the criticism I have posted about this car in the past. In fact, the results show that the LS600hL is worse than I had anticipated in a number of areas.
I thought the fuel economy would be a little better than it is likely to be rated. Only 1 city MPG better than the LS460 and only 2 city MPG better than the LS460L and 5 HWY MPG WORSE than the LS460 and LS460L. This means that the average fuel economy of the LS600hL hybrid sedan will be WORSE than its LS460 brothers.
Add to that the fact that the acceleration of the LS600hL is one tenth of a second SLOWER than the LS460 and LS460L. It weighs in at an obese 887 lbs. more than the LS460L!
The LS600hL V-8 delivers only 9 more HP than the LS460 and LS460L V-8!! With the added electric motors, the total HP is only 438, and with that extra 887 lbs. of FAT, the car is ultimately SLOWER and burns MORE gas, not less.
Those 887 lbs of AWD and hybrid electronics FAT, come at a ridiculous price tag. The test car priced in at $111,715.
And there's more to getting less. It seems the trunk size of this LS600hL is 35% SMALLER than the trunk in its 460 brothers, at a mere 11.7 cubic feet.
Exclusive you might think? Think again. Beyond the powertrain fat, there is essentially no option that can't be ordered on the LS460L.
God bless Edmunds for telling the truth about this vehicle!
Read about it for yourself here:
link title
Some of you may not like this, but most of you will. And... I am once again very glad that ljflx got the LS460L instead of waiting in line to waste his money on an LS600hL. Of course he could have gotten the Mercedes S600, but that's another discussion.
TagMan
The 2008 EPA rating system will negatively impact mpg ratings for most cars and trucks. This will have a number of ramifications. For one, many cars will be thrust into the gas-guzzler category, and will carry tax penalties that they did not carry before. Some cars that were already gas-guzzlers will emerge from the new ratings with even worse gas-guzzler ratings, and be hit with even larger gas-guzzler tax penalties.
All of this is a windfall for the government, even when absolutely no changes were ever made to those cars... just a measurement change. Nasty, huh?
It is reported that the highest mpg hybrids could suffer the most... possibly up to a difference of 30%. No one knows for sure, however. And especially no one knows the actual hit that the larger hybrids will take, because they are primarily used to bolster HP and they are less capable of delivering high MPG ratings, as the LS600hL proves. The hit could be negligable or similar to its ICE counterpart. It remains to be seen.
The LS460L ICE V-8 delivers 27 highway mpg as rated in '07 and the '08 LS600hL is expected to deliver 20 highway mpg.
No matter how you slice it, the ratings changes are very unlikely to make the LS600hL significantly better, if at all, than the LS460L, and they have the potential to be WORSE. At BEST, they will be be similar, meaning NO SIGNIFICANT or meaningful difference in fuel efficiency between the two models... quite possibly WORSE for the LS600hL.
The original hype was that the LS600hL would deliver terrific fuel economy and have tremendous power, but the REALITY is that the fuel economy is, and will be no matter how you spin a post, VERY SIMILAR to the LS460L, and will NOT accelerate better than the LS460L, and if a test shows that it does, it would be within the same tolerance of difference that the LS460 would also have... point being that the acceleration of the LS600hL and the LS460L are similar enough to easily conclude that the LS600hL does NOT actually deliver any tremendous power advantage over the LS460L. (Of course this is due to its 887 pounds of excess technological FAT).
And now as cargo space has become a measured specification of most cars, the fact remains that the LS600hL has a whopping 35% SMALLER trunk than it's LS460L counterpart... something a large and long wheelbase car should be able to boast, not be ashamed of.
There is not and will not be any significant difference, no matter who tests the car or no matter which year's EPA rating system is used. The LS600hL's data is much too aligned with the LS460's to ever even hope to suddenly be significantly better in any way whatsoever.
Quite simply, it ain't gonna change. It is what it is!... and everyone needs to realize that. If you must have AWD, then THAT's the real truth about what you can get from the LS600hL... at the cost of the trunk and a LOT of extra money, in comparison to its counterpart, the LS460L.
It is what it is! And you and I should not enter into a rhetorical posture just to hash back and forth about it. If you want to believe that the LS600hL gets incredible gas mileage compared to the LS460L... be my guest. If you want to believe that it has enormous performance advantages over the LS460L... be my guest. If you want to believe that the diminuitive trunk space isn't a problem in a car like this... then be my guest. As for me... I see this overweight car as delivering an inadequate advantage, if any at all, over its counterpart, the LS460L, especially in consideration of it's hefty price tag. :lemon:
TagMan
12,000 / 20 = 600 (gallons consumed by LS600HL in 12k miles)
12,000 / 12 = 1000 (gallons consumed by S600, even assuming no hit at all from the 2008 test method; the reality will be as low as 9-10mpg, but let me just use 12mpg for the time being because the S600 will still lose and lose big even with this help)
1000 - 600 = 400 (gallons, the fuel saving of LS600 vs. S600)
600 - 400 = 200 (gallons, the total fuel budget of a hypothetical car that can save again as much compared to Ls600)
12,000 / 200 = 60 (mpg, the fuel economy that hypothetical car would have to deliver)
In short, in terms of fuel consumption, LS600HL is exactly the midway point between the gas guzzling S600 and a hypothetical super duper fuel miser that delivers 60mpg. That's even assuming S600 can maintain 12mpg under 2008 testing method, which is highly unlikely; the real result will probably be 10mpg or less, but I'm just using 12mpg for now. There is no production car that can deliver 60mpg even under the 2007 testing method. Under 2008 method is going to be even more unlikely if most of the high mpg cars (they are often hybrids of one form or another) get cut by as much as 30% as you say. That's the reality: a switch from S600 to LS600 can save more fuel than any switch from LS600HL to any other production car, even the microcars with hybrid or diesel! That is an astonishing achievement!
BTW, I agree with you that it is quite an unconscienable windfall for the government, with the new gas mileage ratings.
The entire exchange is not very productive...but it is very entertaining!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
;-)
I don't think the LS600LH is a horrible car but I agree that it is not much of a bargain when compared to the non hybrib LS.
My main problem is with hybrids in general. I just don't like them at their current level of technology. Too weak, too heavy, too complicated and too expensive.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Again I agree with you, that I also don't think the LS600hL is a horrible car, but its achievements, as contrasted to the LS460L just don't look all that spectacular to me, and that's why I've been critical of it.
Merc is not coming back, unfortunately. As least that's how he has explained it to me. He has his reasons. So... for now, the responsibility to keep this thing going is up to us. Yikes!!
TagMan
That really is too bad. Merc's encyclopedic knowledge of all things M-B is unmatched by any of us.
TagMan
Anyway, I would have to say that your knowledge about cars puts you at the "front of the class" here, (there are some others on the forum that I would say also have high credibility, IMO) and I, for one, may not always agree with everything you post, but most of the time you are extremely resourceful, and your posts are often factual with terrific insight that is beyond typical. Your opinions are usually well-substantiated as well. Now, I've said enough, before you get the wrong idea here.
TagMan
TagMan
I'm the same way. I'm currently connected to the internet using my Nokia E62 as a bluetooth modem to dial up to Cingular's data network. Thanks for the positive comments, I appreciate it.
By the way, just today I must've seen at least a dozen Continental GTs, and at least two Flying Spurs. Not exactly "exclusive" in these parts.
That's over the top. An event, or something?
TagMan
But the car that attracts me the most in the high end luxury cars..
The CL class hands down it looks to good.
I like it a 1000times better than a gt though i don't think every1 likes it a lot.
Its the gt lamborg ferrar..etc that attracts most of the people but its cl for me.
DID U GUYS KNOW THE cl CLASS IS THE WORLDS QUIETEST CAR
Mercedes is claiming that its 2007 CL-Class is the quietest luxury car ever
check this video out of the maybach im sure u guys seen it
whoever is interested can see the 8million car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K45_CrR-z-o
None of them compare to the F40 at the Petersen though, what a machine that was. The last purebred, raw Ferrari supercar.
They're both about the same speed.
DrFill
LS is a family car, but u can't be comfortable in a CL class with 4 persons.
I am looking into a 2002 or 2003 XJ8 either Sport or VDP but I am little bit worried about reliability and cost of repair/service. Can anybody give me some advice? I currently have two MB's (C280, ML350) and did not really have any problems. How does the Jag compare? How are the Jaguar dealers in terms of their service? So far my experience with MB had been great but I heard from other people who got srewed.
I saw a few XJ from 2002/3 with 30-50000 miles in price range of $20-24000. Does that seem reasonable? Also, do you guys recommend to get one with the Jaguar certified warranty?
Can anybody recommend a good Jag dealer in New England (I live in the Danbury area)?
I would appreciate any comments, help or advice!
Thanks, Matt
You can also email me: matthes_us@yahoo.com
I'm located in California, so local dealers and local pricing for New England is something I shouldn't comment on.
Good luck.
TagMan
The average retail price of '02-'03 XJs in the NE area seems to be around $25K, so the prices you saw seem to be at least reasonable, if not bargains. I agree with tag that if you can afford to spend around $28-32K for an '04, you'll get a much better car.
I've owned a '96 XJ-S, '98 XK8 and '00 XKR, and currently own a new XK. In my experience, each Jag has been much better and much more reliable than the last. The '00 was largely trouble free until it started to have transmission issues. A certified warranty is definitely a good idea. You don't want to be stuck with a $3K repair bill.
Is the '04 really so much better of a car overall, not only in terms of its reliability?
The '03 XJs that I looked at were alll really nicely equiped (heated seats, premium sound, CD changer etc. plus VDP interior) whereas some of the '04 that I found in a reasonable price range seem to have more of a basic equipment. It seems like the '04 VDPs go for a little higher than $32K. How is the rear leg room in the short wheel base '04?
Thanks,
Matt
The insurance rates are no different than for any other car in the price range. If the car gets some body damage, you would pay your deductible and the rest is on the insurance company. So, in the end, the rates and deductible make everything the same. It's a non-issue.
TagMan
The '03 XJs that I looked at were alll really nicely equiped (heated seats, premium sound, CD changer etc. plus VDP interior) whereas some of the '04 that I found in a reasonable price range seem to have more of a basic equipment. It seems like the '04 VDPs go for a little higher than $32K. How is the rear leg room in the short wheel base '04?
The roots of the '03 date back to the 1986 "XJ40" series XJ6. The car was updated several times inside and out, but like the last gen XK, its bones are very old. The '04 is the first complete redesign of the XJ since '86. The new car is a world apart from the old one. Take one for a drive.
What was your experience with the Jag dealership(s) so far especially in terms of service, responsiveness and friendlieness?
I had really mixed ones with Mercedes, one was really great and the other one really sucked.
Thanks, Matt
I had really mixed ones with Mercedes, one was really great and the other one really sucked.
I know how bad sucky Mercedes service can be. That is what ultimately caused me to switch teams and get a Lexus eleven years ago. I've had my Jags serviced at L.B. Smith Jaguar. I think I'd give them an overall grade of B-, ok, not great. Unfortunately I don't really have any experience with any other dealers, so I can't give you more of a picture than that. Check out the XJ owners forums, they'll probably be able to tell you a lot more than I can.
was wondering if anybody out there has any experience with buying a Jag (or any car for that matter) on ebay. It seems like there might be some great deals out there but I am a little bit concerned about it.
It would be great it if you could share your experience(s).
Thanks, Matt
(P.S. - please don't keep posting this in multiple discussions .)
Thanks, Matt
:confuse:
This was seven years ago----seems like yesterday---I had Lexus 400, or 430, I forget....Seems like Pat and I are the only ones left, so if you don`t make a re-appearance soon, it will be `lights out` Tony
With Merc, LJ, and some of the others gone away, this place is really dim. So much history here. But at least Doc, Tag, LG, HP, houdini, yourself, myself, and a slew of newfound posters still have a place to duke it out.
So long, HELC. You'll definitely be missed, but never forgotten.
Most of us didn't leave. We just moved to a less rigid location.
I occasionally get nostalgic like that when I take a 10 year old property tax receipt out of the drawer. Nothing like the good old days!
I guess he just finally ran out of arguments so LEXUS WINS!! Hear that Merc...LEXUS WINS!!!
Actually I am beginning to like Mercedes more...just need a little bit of convincing.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I still regard Mercedes products of '00 through '05 or so as "avoid at all costs" but it seems like Mercedes is starting to get their quality mojo back. My wife and I will be looking at the GLK when her X3 lease runs out, where as a few years ago we wouldn't even consider getting a Benz.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Did I hear my name? Where is this place? :confuse:
TagMan
It dates all the way back to my early days at Edmunds. Wow.
Ladyblue :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460