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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I never took it that way. My response was "Okay. :) "... and still is.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Good. :) But I think Tony may have misunderstood so I wanted to make sure no one else did.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I think Tony may have misunderstood so I wanted to make sure no one else did.

    Gosh, Pat... How dare you single out Hpowders like that and lay into him so harshly for all that off-topic discussion!! You should be ashamed of yourself!! And to think I used to like you!! ;);)

    Seriously though, I was surprised that Tony might have misunderstood, but rest assured your stellar reputation is still intact, and it was certainly nice of you to make sure that your forum exchange with those posts was understood by all. It reflects that that's the kind of good person you really are. (underneath that crusty exterior, of course ;) )

    :)

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Oh. my. goodness. Good thing I'm wearing my hip boots. :P

    Again I ask - does anyone want to talk about any of the topical vehicles?? ;)

    (Thanks tagman.)
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I guess I am just the sensative one....I told you all Hpowers could take it...and he live up to my prediction:)

    On to the higher end of our running discussion, I received an additional response from Bentley...I had thought about them but got the Audi insted... `The Pride of Crewe``The Bentley Brooklands....Four seat coupe ..530 hp engine...Imperious,unmistakable, and only 550 examples in it`s lifetime...Please join us April 17.....I couldn`t as I got home too late..

    What I can see of it, it looks good, and I would think enjoyable in a setting like the up`scale` beaches of the world, unlike where I think a ls460h would fit in--big city for it-- Further I would worry myself sick that it would get dented, so that would take the fun out of it for me..Tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    (I have also posted this on the Luxury Lounge forum.)

    You guys have just got to read this article on the LS600hL. It will completely support the criticism I have posted about this car in the past. In fact, the results show that the LS600hL is worse than I had anticipated in a number of areas.

    I thought the fuel economy would be a little better than it is likely to be rated. Only 1 city MPG better than the LS460 and only 2 city MPG better than the LS460L and 5 HWY MPG WORSE than the LS460 and LS460L. This means that the average fuel economy of the LS600hL hybrid sedan will be WORSE than its LS460 brothers.

    Add to that the fact that the acceleration of the LS600hL is one tenth of a second SLOWER than the LS460 and LS460L. It weighs in at an obese 887 lbs. more than the LS460L!

    The LS600hL V-8 delivers only 9 more HP than the LS460 and LS460L V-8!! With the added electric motors, the total HP is only 438, and with that extra 887 lbs. of FAT, the car is ultimately SLOWER and burns MORE gas, not less.

    Those 887 lbs of AWD and hybrid electronics FAT, come at a ridiculous price tag. The test car priced in at $111,715.

    And there's more to getting less. It seems the trunk size of this LS600hL is 35% SMALLER than the trunk in its 460 brothers, at a mere 11.7 cubic feet.

    Exclusive you might think? Think again. Beyond the powertrain fat, there is essentially no option that can't be ordered on the LS460L.

    God bless Edmunds for telling the truth about this vehicle!

    Read about it for yourself here:

    link title

    Some of you may not like this, but most of you will. And... I am once again very glad that ljflx got the LS460L instead of waiting in line to waste his money on an LS600hL. Of course he could have gotten the Mercedes S600, but that's another discussion.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The 2008 model gas mileage spec is using 2008 method, which is entirely different from 2007 method. lj stated the two method would usually result in 20% difference, and Tag previously stated the difference is more dramatic for hybrides, to the tune of 30% or more. If we take tag's statement as its face value, even if LS600hL numerical value were the same as LS460hL instead of 1mpg better, the LS600hL would be 30% or more better! What's more important is that, S600 is rated 12mpg in the city using 2007 method. That means roughly 9mpg using 2008 method. The difference between LS600hL vs. S600 for 20k miles a year city fleet service would be about 1,200 gallons of fuel, or $4000 in premium fuel cost. How often do those limos really get to exercise those horses after the first 450 count (or even 200)? Probably not that often. Head of states used to ride in MB 240SDL three-row limos as recently as the 1980's . . . that would be a three-row limo powered by a 2.4liter diesel that developed about 75hp! That's not a typo! It's really 25 horses less than 100, made by none other than Mercedes Benz when it owned the luxury market worldwide. What was the calling cards of that car? Smooth and quite ride, plus impeccable reliability . . . on top of phenomenom fuel economy. At that same time frame, 200+hp V8 mustangs and camarros were quite available for trailer park boy racers.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This time, brightness, you can't use your mathematical magic tricks on ANYONE! Sweet talk it all you want, and play the shell game all night if you want to, but the bottom line is just like Edmunds called it... and even if another more positive review comes along... it could NEVER be different enough to matter. That's why it's already a done deal for the LS600hL. The nail is in the coffin. :sick:

    The 2008 EPA rating system will negatively impact mpg ratings for most cars and trucks. This will have a number of ramifications. For one, many cars will be thrust into the gas-guzzler category, and will carry tax penalties that they did not carry before. Some cars that were already gas-guzzlers will emerge from the new ratings with even worse gas-guzzler ratings, and be hit with even larger gas-guzzler tax penalties.

    All of this is a windfall for the government, even when absolutely no changes were ever made to those cars... just a measurement change. Nasty, huh? :cry:

    It is reported that the highest mpg hybrids could suffer the most... possibly up to a difference of 30%. No one knows for sure, however. And especially no one knows the actual hit that the larger hybrids will take, because they are primarily used to bolster HP and they are less capable of delivering high MPG ratings, as the LS600hL proves. The hit could be negligable or similar to its ICE counterpart. It remains to be seen.

    The LS460L ICE V-8 delivers 27 highway mpg as rated in '07 and the '08 LS600hL is expected to deliver 20 highway mpg.

    No matter how you slice it, the ratings changes are very unlikely to make the LS600hL significantly better, if at all, than the LS460L, and they have the potential to be WORSE. At BEST, they will be be similar, meaning NO SIGNIFICANT or meaningful difference in fuel efficiency between the two models... quite possibly WORSE for the LS600hL. :(

    The original hype was that the LS600hL would deliver terrific fuel economy and have tremendous power, but the REALITY is that the fuel economy is, and will be no matter how you spin a post, VERY SIMILAR to the LS460L, and will NOT accelerate better than the LS460L, and if a test shows that it does, it would be within the same tolerance of difference that the LS460 would also have... point being that the acceleration of the LS600hL and the LS460L are similar enough to easily conclude that the LS600hL does NOT actually deliver any tremendous power advantage over the LS460L. (Of course this is due to its 887 pounds of excess technological FAT).

    And now as cargo space has become a measured specification of most cars, the fact remains that the LS600hL has a whopping 35% SMALLER trunk than it's LS460L counterpart... something a large and long wheelbase car should be able to boast, not be ashamed of. :(

    There is not and will not be any significant difference, no matter who tests the car or no matter which year's EPA rating system is used. The LS600hL's data is much too aligned with the LS460's to ever even hope to suddenly be significantly better in any way whatsoever.

    Quite simply, it ain't gonna change. It is what it is!... and everyone needs to realize that. If you must have AWD, then THAT's the real truth about what you can get from the LS600hL... at the cost of the trunk and a LOT of extra money, in comparison to its counterpart, the LS460L.

    It is what it is! And you and I should not enter into a rhetorical posture just to hash back and forth about it. If you want to believe that the LS600hL gets incredible gas mileage compared to the LS460L... be my guest. If you want to believe that it has enormous performance advantages over the LS460L... be my guest. If you want to believe that the diminuitive trunk space isn't a problem in a car like this... then be my guest. As for me... I see this overweight car as delivering an inadequate advantage, if any at all, over its counterpart, the LS460L, especially in consideration of it's hefty price tag. :lemon:

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The magic trick is called "arithmetics":

    12,000 / 20 = 600 (gallons consumed by LS600HL in 12k miles)

    12,000 / 12 = 1000 (gallons consumed by S600, even assuming no hit at all from the 2008 test method; the reality will be as low as 9-10mpg, but let me just use 12mpg for the time being because the S600 will still lose and lose big even with this help)

    1000 - 600 = 400 (gallons, the fuel saving of LS600 vs. S600)

    600 - 400 = 200 (gallons, the total fuel budget of a hypothetical car that can save again as much compared to Ls600)

    12,000 / 200 = 60 (mpg, the fuel economy that hypothetical car would have to deliver)

    In short, in terms of fuel consumption, LS600HL is exactly the midway point between the gas guzzling S600 and a hypothetical super duper fuel miser that delivers 60mpg. That's even assuming S600 can maintain 12mpg under 2008 testing method, which is highly unlikely; the real result will probably be 10mpg or less, but I'm just using 12mpg for now. There is no production car that can deliver 60mpg even under the 2007 testing method. Under 2008 method is going to be even more unlikely if most of the high mpg cars (they are often hybrids of one form or another) get cut by as much as 30% as you say. That's the reality: a switch from S600 to LS600 can save more fuel than any switch from LS600HL to any other production car, even the microcars with hybrid or diesel! That is an astonishing achievement!

    BTW, I agree with you that it is quite an unconscienable windfall for the government, with the new gas mileage ratings.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    The exchange between you two reminds me of the Ali-Frazier fights of years gone by!! Just when it looks like one has delivered the knockout blow the other one recovers and comes storming back.

    The entire exchange is not very productive...but it is very entertaining!! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You should have been around for Merc, Oac et al. You might want to kick back and explore the history of this thread.

    ;-)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I have been here for about a year now and I am familiar with some of the "debates" that have gone on. One of the things that keep me coming back, actually. By the way, where is Merc?

    I don't think the LS600LH is a horrible car but I agree that it is not much of a bargain when compared to the non hybrib LS.

    My main problem is with hybrids in general. I just don't like them at their current level of technology. Too weak, too heavy, too complicated and too expensive.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I tend to agree with you about the hybrids. I once posted in favor of them, and as you can guess I was making strong arguments... but the truth is always knocking, and the truth to me is that the hybrid is a temporary fix of some sort, not the real answer we need.

    Again I agree with you, that I also don't think the LS600hL is a horrible car, but its achievements, as contrasted to the LS460L just don't look all that spectacular to me, and that's why I've been critical of it.

    Merc is not coming back, unfortunately. As least that's how he has explained it to me. He has his reasons. So... for now, the responsibility to keep this thing going is up to us. Yikes!! ;)

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Merc is not coming back, unfortunately. As least that's how he has explained it to me. He has his reasons. So... for now, the responsibility to keep this thing going is up to us. Yikes!!

    That really is too bad. Merc's encyclopedic knowledge of all things M-B is unmatched by any of us.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Yes... your's too, IMO.
    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I should have elaborated on that, but I was posting from a portable device. As silly as this sounds, I recently learned that my son's Sony PSP (hand-held game device) can wirelessly connect to the internet. Well, the device was nearby, and I thought "Hmmm, can I hook up to the forum with this?" I was amazed that within a few minutes of network setup, I was looking at the Edmunds website on the freakin PSP! That's when I saw your post about merc, and I posted that short reply, cause it takes time to enter text on that device without a keyboard. Anyway, I'm always curious about electronics, so I just had to see if I could connect to the internet that way, and it turns out that it can be done! (OK, Sony... endorsement complete... send check now.)

    Anyway, I would have to say that your knowledge about cars puts you at the "front of the class" here, (there are some others on the forum that I would say also have high credibility, IMO) and I, for one, may not always agree with everything you post, but most of the time you are extremely resourceful, and your posts are often factual with terrific insight that is beyond typical. Your opinions are usually well-substantiated as well. Now, I've said enough, before you get the wrong idea here. ;)

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    High end cars, please...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Good mornimg, Pat. Nice to hear from you. ;)

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    :) Got some high end car stuff to talk about?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    As silly as this sounds, I recently learned that my son's Sony PSP (hand-held game device) can wirelessly connect to the internet. Well, the device was nearby, and I thought "Hmmm, can I hook up to the forum with this?"

    I'm the same way. I'm currently connected to the internet using my Nokia E62 as a bluetooth modem to dial up to Cingular's data network. Thanks for the positive comments, I appreciate it.

    By the way, just today I must've seen at least a dozen Continental GTs, and at least two Flying Spurs. Not exactly "exclusive" in these parts.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    By the way, just today I must've seen at least a dozen Continental GTs, and at least two Flying Spurs. Not exactly "exclusive" in these parts.

    That's over the top. An event, or something?

    TagMan
  • ms09ms09 Member Posts: 112
    i've seen the gt many times well not a dozen in a day.

    But the car that attracts me the most in the high end luxury cars..

    The CL class hands down it looks to good.

    I like it a 1000times better than a gt though i don't think every1 likes it a lot.

    Its the gt lamborg ferrar..etc that attracts most of the people but its cl for me.

    DID U GUYS KNOW THE cl CLASS IS THE WORLDS QUIETEST CAR

    Mercedes is claiming that its 2007 CL-Class is the quietest luxury car ever

    check this video out of the maybach im sure u guys seen it

    whoever is interested can see the 8million car

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K45_CrR-z-o
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Here in Newport Beach, Bentleys are a dime a dozen. Of course I've also seen at least five or six 360 Modenas and a few F430s, one Murcielago and a few Gallardos, tons of Porsches, a Phantom and a Maybach, and several Aston Martins. The Bentleys outnumber the rest though by a large margin. You literally can't turn around without seeing at least one.

    None of them compare to the F40 at the Petersen though, what a machine that was. The last purebred, raw Ferrari supercar.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Mercedes CL vs. Lexus LS600hL. :surprise:

    They're both about the same speed.

    DrFill
  • ms09ms09 Member Posts: 112
    they might be the same speed but both r different cars.

    LS is a family car, but u can't be comfortable in a CL class with 4 persons.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    In Your Dreams----Tony
  • mstendermstender Member Posts: 17
    Hi, I am a newby in this forum and would appreciate some advice or help.
    I am looking into a 2002 or 2003 XJ8 either Sport or VDP but I am little bit worried about reliability and cost of repair/service. Can anybody give me some advice? I currently have two MB's (C280, ML350) and did not really have any problems. How does the Jag compare? How are the Jaguar dealers in terms of their service? So far my experience with MB had been great but I heard from other people who got srewed.
    I saw a few XJ from 2002/3 with 30-50000 miles in price range of $20-24000. Does that seem reasonable? Also, do you guys recommend to get one with the Jaguar certified warranty?
    Can anybody recommend a good Jag dealer in New England (I live in the Danbury area)?

    I would appreciate any comments, help or advice!

    Thanks, Matt

    You can also email me: matthes_us@yahoo.com
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    If you can swing it, I would recommend that you move forward in time to the 2004 or newer XJ instead of the '03 or older. The statistics are quite different with regards to reliability. The '04 is the new generation aluminum Jag and weighs in at a featherlight 3700 - 3800 pounds, or so, depending upon particulars, so it will offer more spirited performance with its 300 hp engine. The reliability is better with the newer generation, and the '05 is even better than the '04. Your budget will determine if you can swing this or not, of course. Whatever you do, get all the warranty you can, no matter what.

    I'm located in California, so local dealers and local pricing for New England is something I shouldn't comment on.

    Good luck.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I saw a few XJ from 2002/3 with 30-50000 miles in price range of $20-24000. Does that seem reasonable? Also, do you guys recommend to get one with the Jaguar certified warranty?

    The average retail price of '02-'03 XJs in the NE area seems to be around $25K, so the prices you saw seem to be at least reasonable, if not bargains. I agree with tag that if you can afford to spend around $28-32K for an '04, you'll get a much better car.

    I've owned a '96 XJ-S, '98 XK8 and '00 XKR, and currently own a new XK. In my experience, each Jag has been much better and much more reliable than the last. The '00 was largely trouble free until it started to have transmission issues. A certified warranty is definitely a good idea. You don't want to be stuck with a $3K repair bill.
  • mstendermstender Member Posts: 17
    Thanks for the info TagMan and lexusguy!
    Is the '04 really so much better of a car overall, not only in terms of its reliability?
    The '03 XJs that I looked at were alll really nicely equiped (heated seats, premium sound, CD changer etc. plus VDP interior) whereas some of the '04 that I found in a reasonable price range seem to have more of a basic equipment. It seems like the '04 VDPs go for a little higher than $32K. How is the rear leg room in the short wheel base '04?

    Thanks,

    Matt
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,498
    How do you 2004 or newer XJ owners find the insurance rates? The lighter aluminum build is a mixed blessing in that the repair bills for body damge should be much higher.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    How do you 2004 or newer XJ owners find the insurance rates? The lighter aluminum build is a mixed blessing in that the repair bills for body damge should be much higher.

    The insurance rates are no different than for any other car in the price range. If the car gets some body damage, you would pay your deductible and the rest is on the insurance company. So, in the end, the rates and deductible make everything the same. It's a non-issue.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Is the '04 really so much better of a car overall, not only in terms of its reliability?
    The '03 XJs that I looked at were alll really nicely equiped (heated seats, premium sound, CD changer etc. plus VDP interior) whereas some of the '04 that I found in a reasonable price range seem to have more of a basic equipment. It seems like the '04 VDPs go for a little higher than $32K. How is the rear leg room in the short wheel base '04?

    The roots of the '03 date back to the 1986 "XJ40" series XJ6. The car was updated several times inside and out, but like the last gen XK, its bones are very old. The '04 is the first complete redesign of the XJ since '86. The new car is a world apart from the old one. Take one for a drive.
  • mstendermstender Member Posts: 17
    Thanks a lot for the info lexusguy!

    What was your experience with the Jag dealership(s) so far especially in terms of service, responsiveness and friendlieness?
    I had really mixed ones with Mercedes, one was really great and the other one really sucked.

    Thanks, Matt
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What was your experience with the Jag dealership(s) so far especially in terms of service, responsiveness and friendlieness?
    I had really mixed ones with Mercedes, one was really great and the other one really sucked.

    I know how bad sucky Mercedes service can be. That is what ultimately caused me to switch teams and get a Lexus eleven years ago. I've had my Jags serviced at L.B. Smith Jaguar. I think I'd give them an overall grade of B-, ok, not great. Unfortunately I don't really have any experience with any other dealers, so I can't give you more of a picture than that. Check out the XJ owners forums, they'll probably be able to tell you a lot more than I can.
  • mstendermstender Member Posts: 17
    Hi,
    was wondering if anybody out there has any experience with buying a Jag (or any car for that matter) on ebay. It seems like there might be some great deals out there but I am a little bit concerned about it.
    It would be great it if you could share your experience(s).

    Thanks, Matt
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hi - maybe you didn't see my reply to you in the Jag topic. The discussion you're looking for is at this link: Purchasing a Vehicle On-line (eBay, etc.). This isn't the right place. Good luck!

    (P.S. - please don't keep posting this in multiple discussions ;).)
  • mstendermstender Member Posts: 17
    I was wondering if anybody out there had any experience or info about texascarsdirect.com and/or luxurymotors.com. It seems like they have some incredible deals on some Jaguars amd Mercedes, maybe to good to be true. Are they reputable dealers?

    Thanks, Matt

    :confuse:
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Hi Merc

    This was seven years ago----seems like yesterday---I had Lexus 400, or 430, I forget....Seems like Pat and I are the only ones left, so if you don`t make a re-appearance soon, it will be `lights out` Tony
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Tony, it's such a sad occassion. It seems like only yesterday that Pat was having to intervene every other post for being off topic, including several of mine. Ah, the good ol' days.

    With Merc, LJ, and some of the others gone away, this place is really dim. So much history here. But at least Doc, Tag, LG, HP, houdini, yourself, myself, and a slew of newfound posters still have a place to duke it out.

    So long, HELC. You'll definitely be missed, but never forgotten. :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Hey, Tony.

    Most of us didn't leave. We just moved to a less rigid location. :)

    I occasionally get nostalgic like that when I take a 10 year old property tax receipt out of the drawer. Nothing like the good old days! ;)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Obviously I still have this forum in my tracked items and continue to hope that Merc will be back.

    I guess he just finally ran out of arguments so LEXUS WINS!! Hear that Merc...LEXUS WINS!!!

    Actually I am beginning to like Mercedes more...just need a little bit of convincing.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually I am beginning to like Mercedes more...just need a little bit of convincing.

    I still regard Mercedes products of '00 through '05 or so as "avoid at all costs" but it seems like Mercedes is starting to get their quality mojo back. My wife and I will be looking at the GLK when her X3 lease runs out, where as a few years ago we wouldn't even consider getting a Benz.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Agreed. And if those pics that Tag posted were accurate, the GLK looks great. Especially with the diesel option.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Agreed. And if those pics that Tag posted were accurate, the GLK looks great. Especially with the diesel option.

    Did I hear my name? Where is this place? :confuse:

    TagMan
  • ladyblueladyblue Member Posts: 326
    This must be the topic with the most number of posts I've ever seen.

    It dates all the way back to my early days at Edmunds. Wow.

    Ladyblue :shades:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Most of the posters on this forum have migrated over to the Luxury Lounge forum. This one became a little to narrow in scope. Come on over. We could use a woman's touch.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hey there. Great to see you again. :D
  • copyrightattycopyrightatty Member Posts: 14
    I am mid-30s, used to be a software company executive, now am an attorney. Looking to get a nice 5-6 year old luxury car to put in the stable for the singlular purpose of carrying clients to dinner or golf, and 5-6 long road trips to visit clients. Price range: 18-22k. The car will need to be in service for about 4 years before replacement. I am currently looking at 2001 BMW 740IL, 2002 MBZ E55 AMG, and 2001-02 MBZ S430. I have ruled out Jags. Do you have a preference for a car in this group and age range with about 60k on the odo? Thanks.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Well good luck in your new profession, and odd as it may be, I am using a copyright attorney for a small problem right now....Personally I would think the S430 would have a nice subdued look and work better for your needs....A word of caution though---the repairs could be very expensive on any of them----Also logic would suggest to stay away from any amg, unless you know it`s history......Again `Good Luck` Tony
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