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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • benznessmanbenznessman Member Posts: 8
    You said it yourself...you are comparing 2 different classes of vehicle...even the genesis is a full-size car...but if you compare for yourself the E-class to any of its competitors then you will find that it is superior to most if not all is competitors...and im certain you were kidding about the price comparison of the 2 vehicles th lexus starts around 77k the e-class at about 53k and im nt certain what package(goodies) you find to be necessary so i couldnt tell you if you were even close to accurate... the LS460 in my opinion just to have it on record is severly over priced and so is LS600h :)
  • sanjaysdcasanjaysdca Member Posts: 269
    Car and Driver compared 50K cars and the ranking is
    1) Audi A6
    2) BMW 5 series
    3) Infiniti M45
    4) Jaguar XF
    5) 2010 MB E350

    They did not have much good to say about the car (compared to competition)
    According to car and Driver MB is the car that you buy to impress the neighbours..

    Also in SoCal with all the incentives available a base 2009 E350 can be had for 40K..if you can find one.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    I compared prices on Edmunds and from dealers. LS460 is not much more than a comparably equipped E350, but the LS has more features on it that E350 does not.
  • sanjaysdcasanjaysdca Member Posts: 269
    couldnt agree with you more...

    there are better choices out there for the money and prestige...
    unless you have to have three-pointed-star to boost your ego...
  • stkntrafficstkntraffic Member Posts: 172
    It was kind of interesting that in the same issue, after ranking the MB in last place, they also had an article about the MB E-class CPO program. Seems to me they're a better deal used... MB adds something like another 50K miles to the warranty, plus there's no deductibles.
  • trythisontrythison Member Posts: 1
    Sat in the new XJ in Pebble over the weekend and I couldn't believe I was sitting in a Jaguar. For a ton of money, I would love to get my hands on the new DBS Volante..stunning. But the Jag, a bit more realistic for me, was something unexpected.
  • benznessmanbenznessman Member Posts: 8
    again i say test it for yourself...i personally have 2 MB's myself and i havent had a singl problem out of either of them and i wouldnt dare sell them...i have tried bmw, audi, lexus, acura, and infiniti...i have even owned hem all b4 and i can assure you they would stil be in my driveway if they were any good what so ever...ea. had very similar problems...terrible suspension, electrical failure, and in the infiniti transmission failure...and to those who assue all mercedes owners have ego issues your wrong...we just enjoy buying cars that last more than 5yrs after they leave the assymbly line :P
  • bob204bob204 Member Posts: 7
    A recent review of the so-called top 5 $50k automobiles ranked the Mercedes Benz last and grudgingly so.. The Audi A-6, BMW 5 series and even a Jaguar far exceeded anything MB sells, including quality control issues which have plaqued the manufacturer for decades. Every Benz I have ever owned spent an inordinate amount of time in the repair shops... Never Again!!
  • stkntrafficstkntraffic Member Posts: 172
    However, that same review ranked the Audi in first place, and I have not yet met an Audi owner who would ever buy another one. I know a number of people that took meticulous care of their Audi, and had premature transmission failure, electrical problems, etc. And most repairs are $1K +.

    The point being, I take all the car reviews with a grain of salt. The reviewer generally looks at how well-engineered the car is. But good engineering does not always equal reliability.
  • sanjaysdcasanjaysdca Member Posts: 269
    I was just stating facts..

    I had a 1995 infiniti...lasted 14 years/140000 miles. All I did was regular maintainence and finally sold it last year only because I got bored of it....

    My wifes 2000 infiniti has 9 years/85000 miles no problems at all....so my experience with infiniti has been good.

    Last year I test drove (extensively) bunch of cars including (MB E class) and was underwhelmed by it...In fact to me (for the money) Genesis felt a better deal.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    "...that same review ranked the Audi in first place, and I have not yet met an Audi owner who would ever buy another one."

    Well, talk to i.d., Markcinncinnati on these boards (usually an Audi board) who's on his 30-some+ Audi.

    I've had three of them and would not hesitate to buy another; it's only a question of when.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Keep in mind that Mark leases his cars. I've read hundreds of his posts & I'm pretty sure that he's never purchased an Audi.

    And that's also true of every Audi driver among my friends & coworkers. They all lease.

    I had an absolutely horrific Audi ownership experience back in the 1980s. Still, I'd give the brand another chance - if I could meet a couple of long-term owners.

    I won't buy a car unless I can be reasonably confident that I'll get 8 years of service from it. My BMW 330i turned 8 a couple of months ago. It looks & runs like new, so I'll probably hang onto it for another 2 years.

    What will I buy next? Don't know yet. I'd like to put Audi on my short list - they're making some very attractive cars these days - but before I do that, I'll have to know more about how well the brand ages.
  • stkntrafficstkntraffic Member Posts: 172
    Fair enough. I'm sure there are some happy Audi owners out there. The key word is owners, not leasers. There are many cars I'd take a chance with on a lease, because in a couple years you can walk away from it. Buying is another story.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Seems to me they're a better deal used...

    Any luxury/high price car is a better deal used.
  • trekridertrekrider Member Posts: 1
    The transmission in my 03 Audi A4 1.8T failed on the road yesterday. Mileage 62,400 - maintained regularly. Has anyone had a similar problem with the Audi?
  • bob204bob204 Member Posts: 7
    Though we can all agree that used is cheaper then new we probably can also agree that if comparisons were made, using all factors, minus price the LS would come out ahead. Owning a Mercedes is akin to owning a boat. The best time was buying and the best time was selling. Should I choose ego over quality I still might purchase a used LS. If the ego satisfaction comes from the 3 pointed star buy one and keep it on your desk. Hoorays for the Lexus brand.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Here is another take on the whole HELC thing.

    1) Clearly there is no relatonship between purchase price and ownership satisfaction. In fact, for some people the more they pay for a car, the crazier they get if they have a problem. Take a look at the posts on the MB S Class site by a guy who paid 140K for an S63, had his air conditioner compressor fail, and it will take MB a month to get him one. In the interim they will "only" give him an E Class to drive. This guy is almost beside himself with anger.

    2) Moreover, not only is there no relationship between purchase price and customer satisfaction, there is no relationship between purchase price and reliability/longevity of the vehicle. A BMW 7 Series or an S Class will not last any longer than a Chevy Malibu. In fact, given the complex electronics, a 12 year old 7 Series or S Class may be at the end of its economic life. The idea of buying an S Class as you hit 60 and driving off into the sunset with it is outmoded.

    If you agree with me on a lack of a relationship between purchase price and happiness and purchase price and reliability/longevity, what are we left with? Probably the "sweet spot" is on that CD list of the five best cars for 50K!,

    On a personal note, we recently added a new 2009 Volvo XC to our fleet (Porsche Cayenne, 2001 XC, 2008 Silverado, 1987 Grand Cherokee Wagoneer, etc) and love it. We paid 35K for it, got 5 years of free maintenance and factory warranty and couldn't be happier.
  • bob204bob204 Member Posts: 7
    Taking the argument that due to the complexity of the various top 5 $50 k automobiles we could say or rather spend that amount of money on another, completely different set of circumstances re. costs of ownership.. Let's choose a Lexus E350 and option it out of better let's spend a few more dollars and get a LS460. Not only am I getting a high quality auto but one of routine service and hundreds of thousand of trouble-free miles.
    Why buy those German symbols of big egos and get a Japanese symbol of both ego and success?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I agree. I learned my lesson over the years with German cars and have been quite happy with Lexus for the past 10 or 12 years. Ironically, my second choice right now would be the Genesis.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Its sad that no one even mentions Jag. The money is right and the reliability is the best.

    A comparably equipped XF is less money than a 5 Series and will be utterly trouble free. You will never even get to know the Service Writers first name. An XJ is perhaps 25K less than the S Class and has won numerous JD Power Awards for not only relibility but also the dealer experience,
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I have always liked the XJ but never owned one. We were behind a gorgeous XK this afternoon and my wife was quite taken by it, as was I.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • benznessmanbenznessman Member Posts: 8
    Honestly you must have a few loose screws if you really think that a Japanese clunker like the LS is better than any German car. second you are still like other before you attempting to compare 2 cars that are in separate classes. I am an OWNER of a "German ego car" and last time i checked my car is older than i am and has more than 200k miles on it and it still runs like new and i haven't done any mechanical work to it ever during the past 5 years that i have owned the vehicle. and for the record a toyota with a different badge and name is still a toyota and as it stands right now my roommate has a '01 toyota that he bought with only 12k miles on it and now its at 80k miles and it sounds as if its on its last leg. Please feel free to challenge his vehicle service history b/c i see him take it directly to the dealer each time to have it serviced and so far he's just got to go back AGAIN for the same reasons he went last time. Toyota/Lexus= :lemon:
    Be smart buy the E-Class if you want a luxury car that costs around $50k to start and the S-Class if you want a car "in the same class" but far more superior to the LS
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Earlier iterations of this board went thru the Lexus vs Mercedes War some time ago. Afterall a while it all got very tiring. So, at the risk of boring anyone, I'd like to give you my experience for what it is worth.

    I had a couple of free hours last night and I stopped in at a central MA Lexus dealership. The sales guys were remarkably well informed and seemingly had all done tours of duty at other high end dealerships selling competing brands. In short, they had good product knowledge.

    It looked like a new Lexus LS compares very favorably against an S Class. Not only is the list price of 74K with AWD a lot less than a comparable S Class, but apparently the Lexus dealer has a 12% profit margin and so can discount the car. Not so on an MB where the dealer has I think only a 6% profit margin and can't offer much of a discount. As a result the transaction price on the LS is significantly lower than list price. Moreover, not only would you pay less, the LS retains far more of its list price three years later. Mercedes engineering? Their AWD system apparently doesn't hold up when bolted to their 7 speed tranny, so an S Class with fourmatic doesn't have the 7 speed but I think a 5 speed. Lexus bolts its class leading 8 speed tranny to both 2WD and AWD. This makes you wonder a little about the long term reliability of the MB tranny. When you throw in the superior Lexus customer service and the better reliability a new LS seemss to be a much better value proposition than a new S Class.

    But, as I walked around the LS, I couldn't help but think that somehow it wasn't the real thing. No tradition, no heritage. I thought of a polyester shirt vs. a 100 % cotton shirt. I think that for 70K you could either buy today a new left over 2009 LS (or wait a couple of months and buy a new 2010) or a used 2008 S Class. I think I'd rather have the S Class and have the heritage, tradition, etc.dumb as it may seem.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    I saw a phaeton on the highway this week and was reminded as a VW fan of its awesomeness while also its oddness and rarity .
    could it be a good value used car? some have 12 cylinders! Fun!
    C&D recently did a "best cars for under $20k, used or new" - and
    one was a ~1990s 12 cylinder Benz with high mileage. Also fun.
    Hopefully cars like the above are eligible for discussion here unless there is a model-year restriction ?! cheers.
  • aeggroupaeggroup Member Posts: 133
    FYI....MB 4Matic has the same 7 speed trasmission as RWD model.
  • stkntrafficstkntraffic Member Posts: 172
    C&D had a big caveat on the MB... you better have a lot of money to spend on repairs. The guy who bought the MB featured in the mag had spent almost as much on repairs as his original purchase price. I talked to a retired MB mechanic who advised to stay far away from the 12-cylinder models. Every repair is very expensive because they're so hard to work on.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Not according to the '09 S Class brochure that I have.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Maybe the six most feared words in the English Language are, "Your Mercedes is out of warranty"?
  • stkntrafficstkntraffic Member Posts: 172
    ... said with a German accent...
  • benznessmanbenznessman Member Posts: 8
    The Bottom line is, if you cant afford it then dont buy it...for those of us who can lets indulge in the comfort and the gobs of power we have under our right foot. :D
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    True, that - I was just mentioning to someone else re: a similarly complex vehicle, older model - if your most pressing question about this vehicle is, "is this a good purchase price?" then you probably don't have any business buying it.

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  • adefinaadefina Member Posts: 9
    I have a lease up on a 750li with a buyout of 52,000 and only 27,000 miles.
    I am considering purchasing it primarily because I like the interior better than the new model and it is in pristeen condition. But, should I lease a new 750li, can I do better leasing the 2009 with $6000 off in incentives (plus dealer negotiation) with a lower residual OR leasing the 2010 with a higher residual? Confused . . .
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    You are not giving us enough info to solve the equation (e.g., model year of 750iL ,etc. etc. ) but, here are a couple of ideas.

    1) Your 750iL has low miles so you would be "giving" them away for free if you turned the car back in.

    2) You now can get an AWD 7 Series so this is different from an apples to apples comparison between old vs new if you live in the Northeast and value getting home every night in January and February.

    3) can you purchase an extended warranty on your present 750iL?

    4) Given the horendous resale on a 7 Series, a 6K discount on a now-one year old model is a joke. Gosh, its already depreciated maybe 20K!

    I think you should do a lot more research and analysis on this because some significant $$$ are at stake.

    PS I don't agree with JP Morgan, benzessman, or Kirstie H, the Host, that asking for complete data to make an informed decision implies that you can't afford to play and that somehow you are a lesser mortal. Everyone in the car biz knows that a car purchase is 80% emotion and this angle is emphasized. (If you take emotion out of the picture why would anyone in the US buy a Range Rover, for example???).

    I'm continually struck by the tendency of a lot of people to casually drive over to a car dealership on a Saturday afternoon, impulsively make a deal, and come home committed to a long term agreement that may not suit them. This is especially true of the leasing crowd.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    You misunderstood my comment - I don't think asking for complete data in any way means you're a lesser mortal. In fact, I was implying that more than just purchase price needs to be researched. My point is that some models have very high maintenance and repair costs. Before entering into a purchase, one needs to feel comfortable that they can afford those costs as well, especially if those costs are LIKELY.

    I could've purchased a really nifty BMW 635csi for about $3K a couple of years ago. In that instance, purchase price should not have been my main concern. I would've likely spent well over the $3K in repairs by now. I was merely pointing out that not all "good deals" are as good for the buyer as they might seem to be.

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  • slearslear Member Posts: 3
    when you go in to a dealer to buy a car, what then is the correct set of information you've compiled to be able to know exactly what price to strike with the dealer?

    We've gone to edmunds, etc, priced out the model w/the exact options we want and have sent requests for quotes to several dealers. Nonetheless, I always feel as though I'm walking in to a shell game anytime I walk in to a dealer and never quite certain I've avoided unnecessary and conspicuously labeled cost gimmicks.

    any and all wisdom (and honesty) greatly appreciated...
  • bornoborno Member Posts: 77
    This is the ultimate question,'how do you know if you're getting a good deal?'
    The jury is out, and you will get lots of different opinions. First, and most important, be patient. Look around, not just locally. The internet has made it very easy to find anything, anywhere. Not that you have to go far, but work the numbers with a few different dealers. It helps to stop in once a give them a face with the name, just don't get emotional. Agreed, edmunds is a good place to start, then use the forums here to see what's going on now. It helps if you convey confidence and understanding of the sales bs, that is out there. Once you narrow it down, make an aggressive offer. Now turn the tables by telling them you'll think about it. You can counter and walk away at anytime. Again, be patient!

    This industry is having a tough time, without being rude, you can definately get a better than average deal if you're patient and push it.

    Good luck
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Borno,

    Your advice is right on.

    There is really nothing to add to it other than that when one does go to the dealership, go at a time good for you, i.e, not when you are stressed or rushed.

    Additionally, I think you should go well dressed which is not hard to do given what most Americans think is appropriate to wear when spending 50K. Going well dressed with a Wall St Journal under your arm to read when the sales guy leaves to talk with his "manager" will give you more self confidence. It will also communicate to one and all that you are not the average slob in a sweatshirt and jeans. In all likelihood you are better educated and better paid than any "sales consultant" you might meet and it might help to communicate to communicate that.

    Finally, if you go during service hours, why don't you ask for a tour of the service area and ask to meet the service manager, not a service writer? This will throw them a little off balance and elevate you in everyone's eyes. There is tension between the sales guys and the service people and it would be interesting to get their reaction to your request.
  • slearslear Member Posts: 3
    Thank you very much.

    So now I have 3 written quotes from 3 dealers for a 535x drive:

    Dealer 1: $58,500 USD (includes the options I want); discounted to $54,000
    Dealer 2: $57,500 USD (also includes options); discounted to $53,500
    Dealer 3: $58,000 MSRP (includes options, not color pref); discounted to $52,500...this car is also from their 2010 loaner pool and has 2,700 miles.

    Have gotten the Edmunds comparator and these numbers all net out consistent w/Edmunds.

    So my question is about what you mean by be "aggressive." Is there still room for these folks to improve their offers? I don't want to be rude, but I also don't want to overpay and would like for once to feel as though I've gotten a "better than average deal" as blckislandguy says above.

    Thank you so much again in advance for any additional advice.
    Regards...
  • slearslear Member Posts: 3
    Hello All,
    Any thoughts on my last email to you?
    Thanks again in advance!
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    I'll bet you that you have more room to play with than just a $1000 difference between a brand new car and a service loaner with 2700 hard miles.

    If you took and additional $1500 off their offer, they would quickly come down an additional $1000 to $51500 and probably break your arm trying to get your check. HOWEVER , I am not sure that the $2000 savings over a brand new car is worth it because the loaner's warranty clock is already ticking.
  • benznessmanbenznessman Member Posts: 8
    Have you also considered getting written offers from competitor companies like Mercedes-Benz and Audi. doing so makes them fight even harder for your money. They see you out doing research beyond just what they have it becomes very beneficial at the negotiating table
  • exotic_car_fanexotic_car_fan Member Posts: 3
    there are several great luxury cars as we all know, but at a price of $50k, that truly limits luxurious cars that fit in this category. bump the price up and you get many more choices. I would have to say the Mercedes Benz Brabus Edition is a great car!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
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  • searchprobizsearchprobiz Member Posts: 3
    I live in Korea in Seoul. The number of luxurious vehicles is quite amazing.
    Last year, Hyundai introduced the new EQUUS, then later the EQUUS limousine.
    Hyundai official website announced a price from 70 MWon, pretty
    Anytime I see one here, I wonder why some people prefer to buy a Mercedes twice the price of the Korean car.
    Do you know if a technical comparative analysis was done with a BMW, a Lexus or a Mercedes?

    searchprobiz
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  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The Equus has been around in Korea since 1999, looked like the XG350 here in the states. The Genesis was intended to be a Lexus Killer at half the price - it failed to conquer the Lexus, but did take away some Near Luxury buyers for Acura and the like. Now the Equus is going to try again, at more money, pretty similar looks to the Genesis, which doesn't quite do it for me, but each to his own. We'll see. One thing I'll say, the Koreans are very persistant, and the Japanese should be very scared of them.
  • ecurryecurry Member Posts: 3
    Ok for the life of me I can't find any forums that even mention the new 2011 XJ. I purchased the car ( XJL) this past December and so far so good other than a few annoyances. The first annoyance was that I had to take the vehicle back to the dealer for some upgrades in software and a whole list of other things to include replacing the hood latch(s) and something to do with the sunroof amongst other things. My only gripe is that if the dealer knew these things needed upgrading, why not do it prior to delivery to avoid the customer from being inconvenienced? My guess is they don't get reimbursed by the manufacturer until the car is sold. Its always a money thing. I'm a businessman so I get that. I just wish they were more forthcoming with the truth.

    The other small annoyance is a rattle from the rear sunroof. I took a trip to DC and everytime I hit uneven road or a bump of any sort it rattles. It seems that there is either a design flaw or some shipping material wasnt removed prior to delivery. Taking it back to the dealership for that to be taken care of this Friday.

    I have owned 4 Mercedes Benz's, 2 S Classes ( one of which I still own), an 03 SL500, and a 2010 E350 that my wife drives. Mercedes is far from perfect too mind you. The reason I owned two S classes is the 01 I bought was such a lemon I made the dealer buy it back and they put me in an 02.

    All in all, the new XJL is a bargain compared to everything else on the market right now. To get the features I have in the XJL I have to get a new S500 with hearly every available option or an S600. We're talking 109-123k minimum for the Mercedes outfitted like the Jag.

    For the 33k or so I saved, not to mention the Platinum service program, I'm very pleased with the car. Other than the minor annoyances I think Jaguar is on the road back to stardom.
    By the way I'm 47 so I'm fairly young. Prior to this years incarnation I wouldn't even say the word Jaguar, much less buy one.

    Now if there isn't a forum for the 2011 xj, can someone please tell me how to start one? its been years since I've been on Edmunds and everything has changed..lol
  • houstondriverhoustondriver Member Posts: 5
    If you get this are the rear seats "bucket" so that you could only have 4 passengers, or does the center console fold away so you could still have 5?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    From the looks of it, you can seat 2 in the rear.
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