High End Luxury Cars

libertycat · July 2003

Once again, you have made a post about the Q45 that is totally untrue. It is obvious you hate the car and your goal in life is to badmouth it as much as possible. At least the exterior styling isn't dead BLAND like the LS430 or controversial like the 7 Series. And the Q45 is every bit as big as the LS430 and short-wheelbase 7 Series. And it has all the features of other ultra luxury sedans besides the iDrive variants everyone hates. And a 340 horsepower engine isn't bad for a $60,000 car. And you make it sound like the 5 Series is larger than it. Get real! I have never in my life heard something more outrageous than that. The Q45 is WAY larger than the 5 Series, E Class, A6, and M45, which are all in the mid-level luxury sport sedan class. You REALLY need to get your facts straight.

fsv · July 2003

Hey, lib, I didn't laugh that much and that hard since long, long time ago... I - hate a car... This car is just a car, not more not less, and I am not into fetish with loving or hating a car!!! "your goal in life is to badmouth it as much as possible" - God, what an interesting accusation! Are you for real?!!! And sweet Jesus, what an an emotional explosion!!! I am sorry I played with your toy for a while, but I didn't take it away! (Also I'll tell you big secret - I really have other goals in my life, but - tsh-sh-sh - nobody else must now this! This is our secret, OK?)
Aber, in plain English: Q45 is not a sales success. Therefore it must be changed to get rid of old legacy and new way to achieve that must be found. And I personally don't think the current car is an absolute eternal perfection. Therefore, above I suggested a way - just an idea!!! - of the possible direction for Infiniti to change their upper-crust echelone. Nothing more!
And, if you went through my prior posts, I want to buy a Q45; most likely I'll go for the "moderate beauty" of '01 car, but I want to wait 'till the end of this year, since more and more '02 cars will be on the market; if the price is right, i might go for '02 one. So, I am critical, but supportive.
And, if you like Q45 more than anything, I belive your local friendly Infiniti dealer is still open.

fsv · July 2003

I might have overdone it a bit in the previous post, but didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings. So, lib, it's cool, OK?

fenn · July 2003

This discussion is really lively... As I have stated, I am a certainly a die hard Q45 guy..

Despite what Libertycat says, the car is still a sales flop....I think that they only sold 156 Q45's in June for the U.S. I think that their sales target was at least three times that amount. So, the empirical proof is that they are not selling.

IMHO, think that they had a interim chance to do something before 2006, if they had reworked the controversial headlamps and front grill, put some larger wheel options, and tweaked the engine to get just a bit more performance (overseas versions of this engine have 360 hp.)...But they did not do anything.... They must have decided to just go to the drawing board to start work on the next generation.

As for the Q45's cache of having something exclusive or different... I like it. I enjoy being stealth-like in my Q. My business is in an inner-city, commercial industrial area, and I am much less conspicuous in my Q45 than I would be in a more recognized German car...... Some folks want the MB or BMW status symbol. I do not really car about that.

As a footnote, I also think that a nice car is not always determined by a popularity contest, ... nor does it mean that a slow seller is a bad car.

One last note: fsv says: "May be, show me the car prior to final stages of design - so far I was never wrong, predicting a car's fate."....fsv, was that a tongue-in-cheek statement????

pat · July 2003

Folks, debate the vehicles all you want, but please leave out the personal jabs. They are not appropriate here.

fsv · July 2003

Don - let's try it - you name a contoversial car, i'll think some time & try to "foresee the future"? I am barely wrong in things like this, so, it'll be interesting and fun - though it will take time, for the point to prove itself or flop.
Also, I don't know why you call them "controversial", as the matter of fact everybody I know likes the gatlin gun lights. May be their total size and shape... But then again, the whole light is pretty much in style of the whole car.
As for interim changes prior to '06 - I dunno, i'd say - cut short it's lifecycle or DRAMATICALLY restyle the car. But restyling will be questionable investment. I'd say make what I said in prior posts.
2 Pat - I am not offended, hope nobody else is, if you meant my and lib's conversation. Totally emotionless discussion is not interesting. But it's a good idea for everybody 2 try 2 be as much reserved as everybody can.

fenn · July 2003

fsv: I was not looking to play a quiz game. I just found the idea that you are an auto style guru, worthy of consultation to the world's auto industry, to be either funny, or provocative.

libertycat · July 2003

I haven't heard anything bad about the headlights from anyone. Do you not like them or know somebody who doesn't, don?

merc1 · July 2003

You've proven to me that you aren't bringing any facts to the table and if you really believe something like that there is nothing more for us to debate. Do you see that even some of the Q45 supporters don't even agree with some of your out-there rhetoric? Read some of DonFenn's posts. Much more level.

DonFenn,

You stated: "I also think that a nice car is not always determined by a popularity contest, ... nor
does it mean that a slow seller is a bad car."

I agree completely. There are few "good" cars that for some reason or another weren't very popular: Volvo C70, Audi A8, BMW 8-Series and the current Q45. I think that Infiniti really botched the current Q45 chances with the previous Q45 or "Q41" as it should have been called. Now that was a car that went backwards in every way compared to the original Q. The 1997 Q was slower, smaller, worse looking, less powerful, and on top of all that I think it was more expensive. That in itself took the Q45 nameplate out of the market, and it'll probably take 2 full redesigns to correct that, provided that those 2 redesigns are awesome cars.

M

double6 · July 2003

The Q45 could be the greatest car in the world it is ugly as sin! In Japan this is the Nissan Cima, not even the top of the range! The nissan President (first generation Q45) still leads the line. In my humble opinion this car is no competition for the new XJ or 7series.

fsv · July 2003

exactly. Bring in Nissan President! Just make it larger that the current Q45 and call Q56 (and don't forget to slap on high pressure bi-turbo on it, please).
Don, why do you think that only people in auto industry have sound judgement? If it were true, names such Cord & Pakkard would still exist along with Rolls Royce and Maybach, Chrysler wouldn't be silent in Daimler-Chrysler, and there wouldn't be an avalanche of bland, boring and sometimes plain idiotic cars from GM, Aztek being a crown to them all. I personally always felt, that new ideas, new people, new influences must have a chance. Otherwise it will be a stiff cast society, like in some oriental country 2000 years ago. Who told you that they are untoucheable royalty? Like in any business, they have more dead wood and ballast among them, than healthy young sprouts; and the companies are being mismanaged all right, producing not what they should and could, but just something. Following your logic, people like the same Ghosh, or Zora Arkus-Duntov or many other would never get a job - 'cuz they are not form "the world's auto industry".

P.S. I was in charge for logistic part of ALL deliveries of steel to VW mexico and Brazil for 4 years, if it will help you to accept my opinion.

fsv · July 2003

Guys, check out this site:
http://www.auto-couture.com/catalog/infiniti/q452/
you can find there President, Q45 and others. What'd u think about the slammed Q? I am surprised the look didn't pick up here in US.

fenn · July 2003

fsv, I was just seeing if you were serious or joking when you offered your expertise to the automobile industry. It seemed just a bit over the top. So, arranging steel deliveries to a Mexican and Brazilian VW plants makes you a automotive style expert?

fsv · July 2003

I never said, that I base my judgement on my previous profession. I said, it is perception of style, time and common sence. Also, a car is always more than style, it is a not finalized sum of constantly changin' variables. Regardless of occupation - why not? I'd say industry background here is more of a disadvantage - exactly 'cuz of it you find Toyota, Honda - pretty much everybody sending their design guys out to art exibitions, furniture show rooms, etc. - trying to find what's appealing to the targeted market group, what's trendy, what's cool OUTSIDE OF THE INDUSTRY. Though, in my opinion, as result even worse thing is happenig through that - young creative talents are being used for fact collection to be further on digested by corporative burocratic mashine - fruits of that - Lex IS300 is the proof, how you can flop doing that - exactly because it is the same approuch GM was using trying to build their car, making something for everybody - and, where is GM now? Though Toyota so far is doing not so bad with X-Box and rest of japanese young crowd cars they don't sell here yet.
To be able to offer something, one must have drive, it's own perception of the world and style, certain coolness and know the way to make people attracted to this look at the things around them translated into style of a particular car created for the particular purpose. There are few people in the industry - same Ghosh I named too often, Ferdinand Piech, may be Yakokka (hell, forgot how to spell his name) Lutz, though less so, May.
Some of you posts - like knowing the most recent sales numbers, mentioning "my sources in Infiniti", etc., make me think you that are an insider, or a dealer - am I correct? This comes from general observation that guys driving a Q45 normally have better things to do than to go through Autonews and rest of industry and non industry periodics to fish up some facts...

fenn · July 2003

To be candid, I have friends in the organization. These folks attend meetings and product planning sessions. The sales figures are from some of these sources that keep me in the loop. There is also a Nissan/Infiniti site that offers up the sales figures.

fsv · July 2003

If I am not wrong, Nissan has a design center in La Jolla, California - are they from there?
So, you still don't give me the credit of having correct opinion on a car's design/sales success?

libertycat · July 2003

but no, he had to keep on trashing the Q45. "ugly as sin" is another opinon which I accept. FYI double6, I think it IS a worthy competitor of the XJ/7 Series. And I have already said that I like the XJ Type better than the Q45. But when you add in value, the Q45 comes pretty close to the XJ Series (which is cheaper than most in this class) on my list. Now, I would really, truly appreciate it if DonFenn, merc1, double6, and fsv would just accept my opinon and stop trashing a car they know little about obviously. Actually, I'm just curious too. Why don't you think the Q45 is up to competing with 7/S/XJ/etc? Because it is too cheap? Not selling well enough? Because it doesn't have a three pointed star or a cougar? Because it doesn't have iDrive, which every article I have read about has LOVED (hint, I'm being sarcastic)?

riez · July 2003

Some recent US sales data:

Make Model May 2003 May 2002 2003 YTD 2002 YTD

Mercedes-Benz S-Class 1,989 2,002 9,281 8,642
BMW 7 Series 1,973 2,209 8,358 8,888
Lexus LS 430 1,848 2,451 8,003 10,777
Cadillac Seville 1,773 1,524 9,494 8,967
Volvo S80 1,399 1,121 5,826 6,407
Jaguar S-Type 1,388 1,246 5,965 5,820
Lexus GS 300 1,058 1,233 4,236 5,911
Jaguar XJ Series 930 801 2,386 3,594
Saab 9-5 763 1,202 3,882 4,199
Acura 3.5 RL 671 667 2,956 3,841
Infiniti M45 298 - 1,645 -
Infiniti Q45 190 294 1,008 1,676
Lexus GS 430 190 277 852 1,052
Audi A8 142 84 396 456
Audi S8 5 40 114 206

Doesn't look pretty in this market segment for Audi or Infiniti!

libertycat · July 2003

The S80, Seville, and 9-5 sold GREAT! Especially the 9-5, which has been out a while and is known about by few people!!! The A8 and S8 should be combined and the 9-5, Seville, S80, M45, GS300/430, and S Type shouldn't be there as they are in the mid-level luxury class.

fsv · July 2003

I said "give me the credit of having correct opinion on a car's design/sales success" implying future possibility what makes a world of difference form "insisting that your opinion is "correct"". I normally don't have a problem of being understood neither. And there is no need in apologies - this is just difference of opinions, in a pointless discussion, where obviously "there is no such thing as a "correct" opinion". But, upon mutual agreement, lets drop this particular going nowhere topic, which shouldn't have existed in the first place - and finally go back to cars.
In reality, if current Nissan President is the best of what Nissan can offer, it sort of looks sad - it is simply larger first generation Q... In reality it means, that there is nothing up in the sleeve with what Infiniti could reinforce it's upper echelone here in US.
BMW 7-Reihe design - I am truly surprized with bimmers 2nd place - all my buddies in Germany don't like it's design (esp. the rear), and to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't sell well there - but, these is the US data, and obviously it's not a problem here. I wonder, what the numbers will be for a model/total sales...

dwongswong · July 2003

If I could build a luxury car, I would build one with these companies' parts:

Audi A8L: exterior and interior styling
BMW: "titanium silver" metallic paint (simply the best silver I have ever seen), "fun to drive" factor, and transmission
Lexus: reliability, very quiet ride, and fit and finish
Mercedes: engine and suspension

As far as leather, brakes, navigation, rear camera, interior materials, and best looking rims, I have no idea? Please tell me what is your ideal car.

libertycat · July 2003

Is Q45 exterior, XJ Type interior (besides stereo and roominess) and gas mileage, LS430 reliablity, stereo controls, and resale value, Q45 rear camera, extended S Class roominess, and A8/Q45 exclusitivity.

fenn · July 2003

I was supposed to be at at an event test driving the A8, S-class and 7 Series Sunday at the Fontana Motor Speedway...However, I tore my achilles tendon while playing tennis and I cannot drive (right foot). What a bummer!

Meanwhile, as a temporarily disabled driver, I have had the opportunity to sit as a passenger in my Q45 for the last couple of days. It really is smooth, quiet and comfortable. ..48,000 miles and no rattles either.... It gives a different impression to sit as a passenger in your own car. It reaffirmed how much I like my Q45......but I still have a hankering for an A8.

ljflx · July 2003

Be careful. I also like that A8 but have gotten used to Lexus LS430 perfection. The Q has that same type of reliability and I'm sure you've gotten used to it as well. I've got 52k perfect miles and the car is as quiet, smooth and rattle free as day one and never required anything but ordinary maintenance. I come do for a new lease next year and the prelim LS pix look pretty good so I'm most likely staying put.

My ex boss has had his 2003 A8 in the shop 5 times in 5 months already. His 2000 A8 was also a problem car. But he will not drive anything that is not AWD here in the Northeast. I had told him to try the S500 4-matic but he's not an MB type.

merc1 · July 2003

Now let me see if I have this right, first you quote me as saying the Q45 is "ugly as sin", yet that wasn't my post. Next up it's your opinion that I don't know anything about the Q45 and I'm
supposed to accept that? Right.

ljflx,

I must say I'm shocked that you'd recommend a S500 to anyone.

M

fsv · July 2003

merc1 - what's so wrong with S500? the way I see it, any car in this group is a marvelous achivement of automotive engineering. My personal preference, Q45, is my preference 'cuz it's best bang for the buck, in my opinion, is reliable and I have nothing against its styling - but 20 yaers ago (when I didn't have money for any of these cars, he-he - but granted, I did) my choice could be something else - so with ljflx.

libertycat · July 2003

fenn · July 2003

In all due respect, I think that this topic has become too much of a debate among a small group of participants.

It would be nice to have a broader, and more cordial, forum of luxury car owners, prospective owners, and automotive enthusiasts, sharing thoughts about these cars in a less contentious fashion.

libertycat · July 2003

merc1 · July 2003

Nothing wrong with the S500, I was shocked because (ljflx) is a devoted Lexus fan.

M

gteach26 · July 2003

Very nice website! Thanks for sharing... that Q is starting to look VERY appealing. These "homemade" sites provide a much better look than the manufacturer sites any day. Anyone out there with similar "homemade" LS,S,7 sites?

fsv · July 2003

I love the lights on the car - there is a pic on http://get.to/q45 which shows the lights on - the car looks like some misterious space creature....

Hey, Don, how are you feeling? What's the time estimate on healing?

Home-made page is good - I said in one of my first post, that Q45 marketing is poor, car is misrepresented and underadvertised. Why Infiniti doesn't want this car to sell well - I dunno.

bwia · July 2003

I read in todays Wall Street Journal that Mercedes-Benz is offering new cars to about 2,000 owners of the 2003 E-Class Mercedes who paid for, but never received, a navigation system in their original vehicles.

The article goes to say that by offering customers new cars, Mercedes was steering clear of a complex retrofitting process, as well as trying to repair some dents to its quality image; and the cars that Mercedes takes back will be sold as used vehicles.

ljflx · July 2003

I test drove one today as I'm off this week. Ride is too harsh for such a luxury car and it is not all that quiet. The review in the magazine was right on the money. For Audi's sake I hope it's a first generation production problem. Interior is well designed and luxurious but overall I found the car disappointing because of the ride quality. Car handles very well but it is hardly a sports car. Yet the thumps over uneven road surfaces are more like a sports car. This car will not be a big hit with US luxury car buyers. It may sell 400-500 a month for the first few months than it'll drop back to its normal 200 a month level.

The Range Rover (drove it at the same place) is fabulous and is right there with the LX470. Flip a coin as to which is better. I'd actually lean a bit to the RR in luxury and to the LX in ride quality. But the RR rides great and the LX is also quite luxurious. Can't go wrong with either one.

Why would you be surprised I recommended an S500. I almost took one myself. It's a great car - but I don't have great confidence in its reliability vs. Lexus. The Lexus LS beats it in the things that matter most to me - but not by much. I have no doubt an S500 will be more reliable than an A8.

ljflx · July 2003

Did you catch the Maybach article in the automobile section of the Sunday NY Times?

merc1 · July 2003

Thats very interesting, as some like the ride. Question, what size tires were on the A8 you drove? I noticed that Edmunds praised the ride, but their car didn't have the 19-inch wheels. I wonder if it's just the big-tire combo thats producing these complaints about the ride. Though I suspect none of these cars are going to ride as soft as a LS430. We'll just have to see about the sales. I suspect it will do better than the old car for quite a while.

So does your liking of the RR mean it may have a future in your garage?

I did register at NY Times website, and I did read two articles on the Maybach, if those are one of the ones you mean, or is there another one?

M

jagboyxtype · July 2003

I've got to agree with ljflx on the A8's ride for the most part. Took a look/drive this weekend and it was rather loud overall. It doesn't really like to glide over bumps, but the intruding thuds from the suspension and its rather unrefined manner for the price may be because the car (e.g. the very vehicle I tested) is new. When Jags - and I only use the example because they are what I know best - are brand new, their suspensions are a little more loud over bumps than one would expect if they've ever ridden in a Jaguar with some miles on it for comparison, but they quiet down and refine a lot after a few thousand miles and eventually really buffer out any road imperfections and bumps better than anything else that has any sort of sporty side to its personality to go along with the luxury side - mind you, I know this from much experience with various Jags all owned brand new from the dealer. But the A8 seemed excessively louder than even new off-the-lot Jags, and this was not too long after having just tested a new XJR, which has a harder suspension (and the newness thuds that come with it) anyway. A8 has a presence on the outside because of its massive size, and the interior is large but it - though executed quite well - like the A4's still left me feeling the design seemed older than what's now coming from Mercedes on its newest models or the updated traditional look from Jaguar. I don't believe the car I tested had the 19-inch wheels either, as the test car was different from the other one I scrutinized and I was unable or uninterested in looking at the tag on the one I drove. I left a bit disappointed, but I suspect it was because the suspension really hadn't had much prior use, and it may refine itself like the Jaguars' over a short period of being driven - I hope that's the case. Still a nice car.

johnnyboy4 · July 2003

Not so much with it's packages but with a few simple things. Drop the base price to 52k flat and have a single package for navigation. Sound too much like the RL. Consider the fact it always outsold the RL. The rear seat galor options are a little on the ridiculous side since they raise the price into Lexus range where many people will ditch the seats and go for the Lexus.

aramus · July 2003

I picked up my new 2003 Q 45 one week ago. I want to report that I am totally awed by the car. It is without question the finest car I have ever driven. It is much better in every respect then I thought it would be. I cannot believe that another car is superior in some meaningful aspect, one that a driver would actually feel.

I am also grateful to all other luxury car buyers who shun the Q 45. This has once again allowed me to lease this car at rates that are ridiculous when compared to the competition. My only conclusion to this phenomena is consumers inability to perceive the Q 45 for what it is. I believe the A 8 will fail for the same reason in the US market.

Back in the mid 80's I sold Jaguar cars. Before beginning this job I had never driven a Jaguar, but thought they were wonderful automobiles. During my first drive, my thinking changed. I thought the 1985 XJ6 was a terrible car in almost every respect. But boy did they sell. I concluded that you could have made the seat out of pins, and it would not matter. People were sold on the "perception" of the car. Reality did not enter into customers decision making process. When Infiniti designed the 1990 Q 45, they made the mistake of actually believing that customer's purchase decisions were based on things like performance. I could have told them, nothing could be further from the truth. Today Infiniti is still suffering from this mistake.

fsv · July 2003

Aramus, good luck with the car. If you live in the place where snow falls, don't forget to keep us posted on how the car is in the winter.

ljflx · July 2003

The Range Rover was very impressive and I'll drive it again in the future. The LX470 is the favorite given my excellent experience with it but the Range Rover must be seriously considered. Very high quality indeed. It's past reliability would - of course - concern me, particularly now as I intend to buy and take a business tax deduction rather than lease.

A8 - The tires were the standard ones. Now here's something interesting. I received a follow-up call from the sales rep today. No sales pressure - just a very curteous call to see if I was satisfied with the dealer, test drive etc. I had made it clear I wasn't buying or leasing until late in the year and was simply starting to look around. Anyway I told her I was somewhat disappointed in the A8's ride for such a high-end car. She told me that Audi had indeed stiffened the ride and that the car to go for if I wanted smoothness like a Lexus LS or an MB S would be the still unavailable VW Phaeton. Naturally the dealer also owned a VW dealership in another area of my county. So I wonder if Audi/VW has strategized the A8 to be its sport horse and the VW to be its quiet smooth riding car. I assume they are off the same chassis. Not a smart move if that is the case. Fighting MB and BMW (plus Lexus in the US) with two different brands (that ride differently but look similarly) is about as ill conceived a business plan as I've ever seen. So I don't think those who are finding the ride stiff, harsh and noisy are incurring anything but a VW planned experience. It's a shame because the A8 is a stunning car and the only thing I didn't like visually about the car is the rear lights. The paint on this car is the best I've ever seen.

Yes - that was the article. I didn't want you to miss it good buddy. Seeing Jay Leno pull up to a Mac drive through with a Maybach was about as good as seeing a poodle in the back seat of a classic Rolls Royce - being driven by a chaffeur - with no one else in the car. Saw it on Park avenue a long time ago and could never forget it.

Michael - what Lexus board are you referring to - the LS? That has 4000+ posts.

merc1 · July 2003

You really should go for the Ranger Rover. Most people are awed by it show car looks and interior. I don't like SUVs myself, but I still think it's the best there is right now. Have you seen the new VW Toureg?

Your guess about VW and Audi's strategy is exactly correct. VW is going after Mercedes and Audi is going after BMW. I think in the end Audi will still be Audi and VW will have made some wonderful cars, but won't ever have the dealer setup, or image to take on Mercedes-Benz, nor will they have the sheer depth of models required to do that, nobody does. I'm really anxious to see the Phaeton in person, and check out it's interior, because I have sat in the new Toureg and it has a fabulous interior, probably just as good as the Range Rover, for 20K less. Since people already pay 30-50K for SUVs from everyone else including your average Ford dealer I don't see much a problem for the VW SUV, but the Phaeton I don't see making it here. VW's dealers, mainly their service practices aren't going to jive with a 60K (V8 model) or a 80K (W12 model) car......no matter how lavish the car is.

I posted a link to the Jay Leno/Maybach photos a few posts back. While I love the car's interior I can't say that I'm crazy about it's exterior. I'm so glad that particular stylist is no longer with Mercedes-Benz. He was also responsible for the new CLK, another Benz I'm not crazy about when it comes to it's looks.

M

t6553gw · July 2003

My testing vehicle has Dunlop winter sports 2(Audi gave most US testing vehicle winter tires because we are in Michigan), I always use the firmest setting: dynamic and the ride just feel right, I did ride in a 19 inch potenza A8 and even on the lift setting still feel firmer than mine but I like it, also once I had to change my front left tire to the 19 inch(standard spare tire) and I can feel more grip and firmer ride so I guess this is just a personal preference, from my three and half month driving, I want to say the more I drive it, the more I like it.

t6553gw · July 2003

I saw a black phaeton in Frankfurt airport concourse this Jan., only cost 169 EURO to rent one day, it has a very impressive present and definitely more up scale interior than Toureg.

merc1 · July 2003

Good show. Any idea on when it goes on sale here?

M

t6553gw · July 2003

I thing Phaeton won't be here until Nov.

fsv · July 2003

merc1, incedently, do you remeber what rental co it was - am going there soon.

pathdoc · July 2003

As much as I like the new Range Rover it's terrible showing on all surveys of reliability and even service satisfaction would prevent me from getting one. My other vehicles include Mercedes and Jag so it is not like I require Lexus perfection but until RR can demonstrate improvement I will have to look elsewhere for a SUV.

fenn · July 2003

I am pricing new cars and I was surprised to find that some Jaguar dealers are dealing on 2004 XJ8's. I found that a base car (no nav. etc.) can be bought at some dealers for about $56,000.........It puts the base Jaguar's selling price closer to a Q45's price than that of a big Beemer or Mercedes......

ljflx · July 2003

That's my fear and I am used to Lexus perfection plus I love the LX470 as well.

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