High End Luxury Cars

ljflx · August 2003

Wish I knew how I did that. 7 posts with one mouse click. I wonder if I can get 7 cars of my choice for one payment.

merc1 · August 2003

If I could only have 7 cars of choice..........

Mercedes SL55
Mercedes CL600
Mercedes E55
Ferrari 360 Modena
Aston-Martin Vanquish
Audi RS6
Porsche 911 C4S Cabriolet

oh well...it was fun to imagine.

M

ljflx · August 2003

You don't want a Maybach?

bwia · August 2003

Merc1

In the September issue of Road & Track's review of the Maybach to which you refer, there is also a boxed tidbit on the potential Mercedes Benz customer.

It said the typical Mercedes Benz buyer had an annual income of two to three times the purchase price of the car or $250,000 and for the Maybach an annual income of $1 million or more.

According to the IRS, Over 144,000 returns for 1997 showed adjusted gross incomes over $1 Million, so there is a huge market for the limited production Maybach.

pablo_l · August 2003

I think you need more than $1M to justify blowing $300k on a car. It'd be inexcusably poor financial planning to buy something like a Maybach unless your net worth is significantly higher than $10M, I'd say. There is a very profitable market for ultra-luxury cars, but it is getting very crowded due to the post-bubble syndrome - they started to design all sorts of ultra-luxury vehicles as so many people hit it off big, and they're getting to market now that many fortunes have fizzled. It'll be interesting to witness - no doubt many people still have a lot of money left, but the general mood seems to have swung against rampant extravagance. The excess that was so acceptable in 2000 has given way to elegant understatement in my opinion. Our company's parking lot is a testament to that, especially during board meetings. Three board members whose net worth I'd conservatively estimate north of $50M each and that used to drive an assortment of Ferraris, Astons and CL600s now drive around in a Merc ML, a Lex LS and a BMW 5 series respectively. I myself got rid of my Jag XJR and got myself a Saab to not project the wrong image with customers painfully affected by layoffs and other hardship, not because I had to, but because I truly felt uncomfortable. It is a different world, and unless you're at a point where you truly can afford to rub people the wrong way and not care, being all too excessive is not that cool. And a Maybach or Rolls are damn blatant signs of excess.

On top of not being able to afford a Maybach unless I was intent on mid-term financial suicide, my objection to cars like the Maybach and Rolls is that they're too damn big to be fun to drive around, and unless you are *truly* rich you'll be close to a nervous break-down whenever you drive in city traffic. I know that also bugged me when I owned the XJR, the constant paranoia about something happening to it (which is inevitable) - the new car has been a very liberating experience in that respect given Bay Area traffic and lack of civility. I can't even begin to comprehend how I'd feel if I was sitting within $350k of bills on wheels...

ljflx · August 2003

I think he meant $1mln in annual compensation or annual income - not net worth or net cash. Such an income would likely relate to someone who has $10mln in net cash. I would say 3-5mln in net cash while you are still earning a high income (say equal to the car price at a minimum) does it though - if you are care free. But logic tells me that most people in that grouping though are still investing in future businesses or investments for healthy returns rather than buying an asset like a Maybach that will rapidly lose value. The Maybach is really for people who have so much excess cash that it hardly matters to them if it loses 40% of its value over 3 years.

pablo_l · August 2003

The claim was that the 144,000 people that according to the IRS made $1M or more in '97 were proof the Mayback has a very large market, as if each and every one these 144k people automatically represent potential customers that in 2003 can wing a $300k+ car purchase. Admittedly, there might be *more* than 144k people making over $1M in 2003 (in fact I think I recall recently reading something to that effect), but it is my opinion the "natural" target customer base for something like a Maybach is significantly smaller in number.

ljflx · August 2003

Agree. It's probably 25-35% of that 144,000 today that are really in the league of buyers. Most of that group that had that income in 1997 (and even today) probably had/have just a flash income year due to the market or some other asset sale and likely did/do not have the real financial net worth underpinning for it to continue. This is indeed a very small market and the cars will not turn over fast. The other thing is that the car is guaranteed to lose value fast. Think about it. If a Maybach retained 75-80% of its value after three years would you buy a used one for $250k or a new one for $320k. Heck if you had that kind of money you hardly care about $70k plus you want all that new car sale pampering that a car like that gets. Thus the car will fall to a price where other buyers exist - which is well below its original value. It's just a normal supply and demand story. But I doubt that many people who buy a Maybach or a Rolls will turn it over in three years anyway. Most will likely hold the car for 5-10 years. Which is another reason why it is a very small market.

merc1 · August 2003

No Maybach on my wish list, at least not yet. I need to see the car outside of a magazine or an autoshow to truly get a good look at it.

bwia,

I'm sure there is a pretty good size market for the car. They sold 13 in the U.S. in June, I wonder what July's sales total was? I'd be curious to know what other cars are in a Maybach onwer's garage.

M

syswei · August 2003

Just because a large number of people could afford a Maybach doesn't mean that a large fraction will buy one. The same number of people could afford to sink 300k into a super-high-end home stereo system, but few do.

Whatever the number of Bentleys and Rolls Royces sold annually is, don't expect Maybach's entry into the market to expand the market by all that much. Maybe the market grows to between 1.2x and 2x what it was.

pat · August 2003

this: Full Test: 2004 Maybach 57 - A Counter to Rolls and Bentley which was recently posted on Edmunds.com?

ljflx · August 2003

They will have no problem at all selling the cars they have set as a goal. It's just a very small market.

I saw the car in person at the auto show plus I saw that one car going into the Lincoln tunnel. Its' styling is not up to snuff with its other immense attributes but it's certainly a good looking car. Like the S-class it hides its considerable bulk real well. I can't imagine you not liking the car in person.

merc1 · August 2003

We'll I'm supposed to be helping a friend shop for a car tomorrow, and Mercedes, Acura and Audi are on their list. This particular MB dealer also has a Maybach franchise, so maybe I'll get to see one thats awaiting pickup or something. We'll see.

What do you all think about the Maserati Quattroporte? Autospies.com has some very good pics of it this week.

M

bwia · August 2003

Merc1/Pablo

According to Automotive news MB plans to build 1,500 Maybachs a year, and expects 70 to 80 percent of all Maybachs will be sold to current Mercedes-Benz owners who want more than a top-level S class.

I don't know what percentage they expect to sell in the U.S. but let's assume 50% of production or 750 cars. The latest IRS statistics show that 193,798 tax returns with adjusted gross incomes of over $1 million were filed in 2001. In California alone there were 30,843 taxpayers with incomes of over $1 million.

So, to reach their target sales level they only need to sell one Maybach per each 258 people with incomes over $1 million. I am not a sales guy but this does not appear to be an unreasonable target.

ljflx · August 2003

I'm Italian (with little to no creativity in design) and I think the Italians design the most beautiful cars in the world - but that Maserati Quatroporte isn't anything special to me. Naturally I've only seen pix (in most mags these days) so in person I may view it more favorably. But I think it looks like a Jag up front and a 7 series (albeit a better looking one) from the side. It's the first Maserati I've ever seen that I don't think is special or a car I'd love to own.

We are getting to know one another too well my friend, as I was just going to ask you what your opinion of it is. So what do you think?

By the way - I do like the Phaeton - quite a bit actually - but I still don't see it making it.

No Lexus stops tommorrow - I'm disappointed in you. I still want you behind the wheel of an LS430 and an objective opinion of it.

pablo_l · August 2003

bwia - the target you mention is not unrealistic when you put it like this. Then again, 1,500 cars at over $300k is a hell of a lot, historical market trends for ultra-luxury cars in hand. If 50% are to be sold in the USA (which is a perfectly valid assumption), it means they have to sell 2 every day. That is a lot of $300k cars, and can't happen without stealing away very sizeable market share from someone else, Ferrari included. Historically, volumes for such cars have not been as high. We will have to see whether the combined lot of Bentleys, Rolls, Maybach etc etc really deliver on their projections. It will be interesting to observe, especially considering that sales for luxury cars in general (anything over $40k) are down. The super-rich are never as dependent on macro-economic trends, of course, but all you need is for understatement to become chic to really create some hurt in that market. I think there the equation becomes whether something is unique and cool enough to get them to spend yet *another* $300k on yet another car, and while the Maybach might fit the bill, if I had that type of money the Maybach would be one of the last cars to truly get my jiuces flowing. Unless the company forces it upon me as a corporate limo, I probably would not consider it. I'd much rather have something with personality, like a Bentley Arnage. Incidentally, Georg Kacher arrived at exactly the same conclusion after driving the Bentley, Maybach and Rolls offerings, and while everybody's taste is likely to be different, he usually gets the car enthusiast's choice very right.

As to the Maserati, the design all in all is sound, with some Maserati cues (which historically have not been the prettiest Italian cars, I think), but somewhat droopy looking in the front. I think the lower part, scoops and such, of the car front let the design down, they seem kit-car-like add-ons, even though lights and grill and hood are quite nice.

The Phaeton has received terrible reviews in the German press. It's supposed to drive very ponderously and feel heavier than it is. The quality of the cabin is supposed to be awesome, however. It seems getting the first luxury sedan out of the door is always going to be an experiment at first - Audi in its time also took its time getting the feel of the A8 right.

ljflx · August 2003

I wonder if the European pubs dissed the Phaeton because it is a VW and not a lux brand. Last time I was in Europe there was a lot of criticism for VW even thinking of introducing such a car. No one had yet seen it let alone driven it yet people were already lined up against it. Europe is a tough market to crack with its nationalistic and socialistic (cast) system approach to buying goods and services. Remember all the criticism of the Euro Disneyland. I think the car has a better chance of making it here before it does in Europe. But I doubt it will make it here because Audi can't cut it with the A8 and VW reliability and quality is in the basement right now.

300eguy05 · August 2003

I like the new Maserati a lot. It's front end looks like a big softened Rx-8. And the headlights remind me of those found in the Passat. Am I blind here? Does anyone else see what I see?

ljflx · August 2003

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't dislike it but it doesn't make a great impression with me. Pablo said it well - it has a droopy look in the front and personally I think it has a Jaguar like shape in the front as well. On the side it's a more elegant 7-series to my eyes. Somehow I think the car will look better in person though.

pablo_l · August 2003

I actually think the European public, by and by, is far more willing to give new exciting stuff a try than the US buying public, which adheres very strictly to some unwritten buying rules. It was a German mag that trashed the VW in its comparison against Audi and BMW. Interestingly, the only place where I have read question marks about VW breaking into the luxury market has been in the US press - the German mags never questioned whether the VW "brand" could be luxury - fact is in Europe it already is regarded as an uppity brand, VWs always carry a premium against other cars in its category in Europe. The reason given by AutoBild.de was preception of untamed weight, simply based on how the Phaeton drove.

pablo_l · August 2003

Incidentally, while re-reading autobild.de to make sure I wasn't making up things about the Phaeton, despite very lukewarm reviews the Phaeton has become the best selling luxury sedan in Germany right away. Introduced in May, it already has topped the Mercedes (next in popularity), BMW and Audi offerings in sales numbers.

syswei · August 2003

I remember reading in the WSJ maybe 4-6 months ago that the Phaeton only did 50% of VW's first year sales forecast. Could be they were wrong but I think that's what they said.

pablo_l · August 2003

There's no mistaking the autobild article: the Phaeton is the best selling luxury sedan in German since it came on the market. The Phaeton wasn't selling 6 months ago, so I am not sure the WSJ article makes sense...

300eguy05 · August 2003

You are probably correct. In my opinion, it is a very beautiful car in the pictures, as I'm sure it will be in person as well.

And while the Phaeton, in my opinion, is also nice looking, a poster on the Phaeton board said it was over 5000 lbs!! Very hefty for this class.

fsv · August 2003

I personally would go for Phaeton, when it is a couple of years old - I just have this philosophy - don't buy them new.... I'd say, that Phaeton and Maybach are great and daring efforts from two great companies, and these effort should be supported by us all; since they are trying to make our life richer in experience and choice - German saying is - "Wer hat die Wahl, der hat die Quahl, und wer nich waehlt, der wird gequaehlt" would be the best illustration for that. And I still say, Infinity should build a car in this segment, with a bi-turbo 5.7L engine to compete with the likes of MB, RR and - why not - Bentley.

footie · August 2003

Does anyone know the story on the Mayback logo?

It looks like a pair of mating spiders to me, memorialized in a wankel rotary engine rotor.

The car itself is very odd looking too - two tones paint job and all - Lincoln front end - sort of comic book like. I'd expect Jack Nicholson to step out of one as the Joker.

pablo_l · August 2003

The Maybach logo is simply two Ms for Maybach Motorenbau GmbH (Maybach Engine Construction Inc). Founded after WW1 by Karl Maybach, son of car pioneer and Daimler partner Wilhelm Maybach. I think now they officially call it Maybach Manufaktur (not Motorenbau), as if to make it sound classier.

Note the classic Maybach Motorenbau was not exclusively into luxury cars, those were more of a side business. Ironically, Maybach himself was a high-powered diesel fan and thus loved trucks. Maybach was also the engine supplier for the feared German panzers in WW2.

merc1 · August 2003

I'm not sure about those production numbers, and wha they want to sell in the U.S. Last time I heard/read anything about Maybach's plans it was 1000 cars total and maybe 400 for the U.S., with most of those buyers coming from people in the Bentley, Rolls-Royce sector, combined with someone looking at expensive artwork, boats etc. There is no way they'll sell 750 308K+ cars in the U.S. But your breakdown of the numbers of who can buy one is very interesting and since I'm not anywhere near that group I'll have to take your word for it.

ljflx,

Nope, no Lexus shopping and not by my doing, honest. I know Lex dealers treat you like royalty, but around here unless you strike them as fitting in a certain demograph when you walk through the door, they're pretty rude and snobbish, there is no way I could put up with them long enough for them allow me to drive an LS430.

Yes! Italian styling is the best. Ferrari and Alfa being at the top of the list. Europeans in general, excluding the French, make the best looking cars on the plant, imo. Between Ferrari, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Alfa-Romeo, Maserati, Jaguar, and Bentley there is just a glut of gorgeous machines.

The VW Phaeton is a lost cause I think. I think It's a brilliant luxury cruiser, but it's wearing the wrong badge (for numerous reasons) and simply won't have the dealer setup worthy of such a car, if and when it goes on sale here. Now the Euro press has knocked the car mainly for being overweight and not sporty enough, as it weighs a good 600lbs more than A8L. But like pablo_l touched on the car has a stunning interior and should impress a few Americans enough to buy it, but it won't be anywhere near VW's sales goals. VW, per AutoWeek is saying it will go on sale in Oct. We'lll see.

The Maserati Quattroporte I'll have to see in person, but it does look at lot better in the autospies pictures than it did in those first-release shots.

M

merc1 · August 2003

There is yet another luxury car comparo this month. In Automobile Magazine. The Audi A8L, BMW 745Li, Jaguar XJ8 and Mercedes S430 4Matic.

The Audi A8 impressed the most editors, while the 745Li was at the opposite end with the S430 and XJ8 in the middle.

They're calling the S-Class "old-faithful" now....amazing how time flies.

M

syswei · August 2003

I was wrong it was 25% of projected sales: http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000149570.cfm

However they were talking about CY02 sales, maybe things have improved.

pablo_l · August 2003

The Phaeton statrted selling in May 2002 in Germany. It also surprises me a lot about the number the fact that in

http://www.autobild.de/suche/artikel.php?artikel_id=1986&A_SE- SS=667dbe625caa0f297a306233a544933f

it is mentioned that that VW sold 1,063 Phaetons in June 2002 in Germany alone, turning it into the best selling luxury sedan (at least that month). Mercedes was next with 786 S-class cars sold in Germany that month.

The articles on the Phaetons success or lack thereof seem to be contradictory depending on the source. The reports on its driving aren't, in Germany the V6 engine verison is seen as the best and most balanced, which makes the article -in which the usual US predilection for V8s without consideration for the rest of the package becomes obvious- somewhat formulaic...

300eguy05 · August 2003

Mercedes cut the cord on the 6 cylinder S a good 4 years ago, with the out going model. BMW hasn't offered a six for over ten years in the 7. Audi, to my knowledge has never offered a 6 cylinder in the A8. I could be wrong about that. And Jaguar got rid of the XJ6 back in 96 or 97. Or was it 98? I don't remember. But my question is, would these cars sell here? All of the companies I listed have them on sale in europe, so why not here? Thoughts, answers, all are great. Thanks:)

merc1 · August 2003

Interesting question, as we've discussed this before in this thread. I don't think we'll ever see those models here because of their price relative to the top line V8 versions of the 5-Series, A6, E-Class, S-Type, and the single car that bridges the gulf in between..the LS430. A six-cylinder of the 7-Series just wouldn't fly now, neither would an A8. The BMW is way too heavy and Audi has worked very hard to postion the A8L as a premium car, and a 6-cylinder variant would just be a mistake now. I personally would like to see the 735i, S350 and XJ 3.5 V8 on sale here, if only to give more people to truly experience the top car from each of these brands, for a lesser price. Not everyone is caught up on sheer hp. I do think the Benz V6 would have to be spruced up a little to compete with those smaller displacement V8s. I don't think anyone else can pull off a 6-cylinder car in this class now except Mercedes because they were the last to do it.

Mercedes in particular shocked a few people by dropping the 6-cylinder S-Class from the U.S. lineup, as the old S320 made up 40 percent of S-Class sales during some years of the previous S-Class' run from 1992-1999.

I could see a lot of people choosing a car like these over a LS430, the only car that would cover their price point. Of course the Japanese car would have a power advantage, but that would be about it.

The price of having the right image is high in the U.S. market as these are seen as "premium" cars and thus no sixes or even small eights are deemed worthy. Now if you want to talk diesels, they'll be bringing them as soon as they can!

M

footie · August 2003

Merc1,

Didn't you know "all generalizations are false"?

Edmunds comparator is a great reference tool:

Lexus LS430 betters S430, A8 and Jag XJ:

turning circle,
cargo capacity,
gas mileage,
horsepower,
torque,
braking...

oh and about $20K over S and A8

and most importantly to folks that actually want to be able to drive these puppies EVERYday...

And my favorite, JDPower Customer Service, Quality and Reliability ratings:

far and away leadership reliability, availability, and undisputed best dealership customer service.

While Lexus strives for perfection, the rest of the pack just strives to make cars that work.

merc1 · August 2003

I've never seen a person post so much incorrect information time and time again. You know what footie, your posts are not even worthy of serious response from me, so I'll leave it at that.

M

footie · August 2003

I guess that you just don't believe our good folks here at Edmunds.

Go do the comparo and see if the info isn't right.

You are welcome to characteristically carry on with out any serious response.

However, when posts get light on facts, fill with inuendo and forget the 'in my humble opinion', I'll post data to clarify issues. And Edmunds is such a great source!

After all, we wouldn't want newbies and lurkers here to think anything of these cars but exactly what the facts demonstrate, right?

michael_mattox · August 2003

Just curious...Have you ever driven an LS430?

merc1 · August 2003

Here's the difference between you and me. I don't need a configurator to tell me that you're wrong about the LS430 having a hp advantage over the A8L or XJ8. Simply put it does NOT have an advantage in hp over those two cars. That I see from merely reading what you posted as being incorrect. You live by the surveys, and when you state certain things it shows that you have little or no actual knowledge about the cars you so like to put down.

Secondly, the survey issue has been exhausted in here and in the News and Views section, and you're one of those people who'll believe anything that JDP says without a second thought, thats why I stated your posts are not worthy of a serious response. You think JDP is the bible and that everybody who owns a Benz is subjected to such awful conditions/cust service trying to get their junk serviced. I don't think or agree with any of that, so lets just disagree and be done with it. Oh, if you think me not responding is my character, you're wrong on that count too. I just don't respond to obvious nonsense like your posts, anymore.

M

pablo_l · August 2003

Mercedes seems a decent case study: in Europe of course they offer the S350 and the S430. Whether power difference (245 vs 279) and supposed smoothness of the V8 (which I am not always convinced of) truly justifies a $11k+ premium of the latter in Europe is a question. I think quite a few people would grab the S350 if it was available in the US, because it seems a rational choice: a bit less power, but also lighter by 150lbs, and near identical in 0-60 times.

Of course, Mercedes also lowers the price of the S430 for US market purposes.

I just find it interesting, since when it comes to their SUV offerings it seems somehow magically they arrived unanimously at the conclusion that you must offer both 6 and 8 pot configurations.

Finally, I have always find it somewhat amusing that, in a country limited to 65mph that are enforced by a highway police force with less sense of humor than the German [non-permissible content removed] (my Californian perspective speaking), somehow car consumers cry out for the models with the additional power, and the love affair with bigger displacement for its own sake continues. Must be in the genes or something... :-)

t6553gw · August 2003

I think the root reason of this conflict is Merc is German car fan and footie is Japenness. I have to say so far Merc has the edge. If footie have driven one of the top German car, this conflict might be self corrected.

pablo_l · August 2003

It is different car philosophies somehow. I admire what Japanese car makers do, but it leaves me cold. There's something about them that simply doesn't connect with my brain, and whether it's brand snobism or simply an aspect of car philosophy that withers with mine I can't exactly tell - and I don't have to, and neither has anyone else. It's perfectly legit to have a personal perception based on gutfeel and intuition. And since no one is ignoring real merits and real figures, the only major sin is to be missionary and preachy on the topic, and ignore the fact people can arrive at different conclusions.

Before I get told I should give Japanese cars a chance: when I moved to the US, initially I got an Infiniti because I wanted the most troublefree ownership experience, and truly wanted the appliance-like utility that Japense brands seem to bring along, popular-wisdom-wise. Bad luck: it was the worst car I have had reliability like, its rear bumper paint job lasted less than my Fiat Uno's many years ago, and it's the only car to ever leave me stranded by a highway other than a Citroen (the latter having the good excuse it was over 10 years old and very poorly maintained). My least favorite car ever was that Infiniti - other than the fact I didn't lose much money when getting rid of it again after less than 2 years, and that the service experience was always very good (though I got to enjoy it more often than I'd like) I can't say much good about it. I replaced it with a mildly used Jag XJS convertible with a horrid reputation for reliability, and it was the most reliable car I have ever had - never had one single issue. That comes to sho how much one should be ruled by consensus when making an individual choice.

footie · August 2003

You are absolutely right.

Individual experience is individual experience.

The statistics for Infiniti, which these days is right behind Lexus, are very good, far better than MB, Jag and Audi.

What you point out is that unfortunately you were one of the relatively small number of folks that have bad experiences with Infiniti.

Similarly, you were fortunately one of the relatively few that had a great experience with a Jag.

Nothing like being a double outlier. (ier not iar)

pat · August 2003

Please be very careful.

This is a very respectful and respected discussion about, well, about luxury marques. There is no room in here for petty sniping and backbiting.

There is no reason to get into any kind of a turf war. We are not here to prove a marque better or worse than another. We are here to enjoy them all.

Contribute respectfully if you wish to participate. If you want to get into a pissing contest, you are in the wrong place.

pablo_l · August 2003

Actually, I think public consensus typically lags about 5 years behind evidence. I read somewhere Infiniti had some issues for a while -as did Nissan as a whole- but they fixed them in time for their "Japanese built" reputation to not take a dent. Similarly, Jaguar had quite stellar reliability rating before people started to realize it was no longer the brand with electronics designed by Satan himself.

As with everything, people should buy what they enjoy. There are no bad cars anywhere near this price category, there are just different value propositions that appeal to different people. And it is wired in part of my car credo that there isn't a single car brand that is "better than" whoever else - it is all merely a function of someone buying into the value propositions the brand accentuates with their cars.

Vive la difference, as I'd say if I was French (and possibly dyslexic)...

300eguy05 · August 2003

I enjoyed reading Lexus vs. Mercedes for a long time until it got out of hand. Let's not let this happen here. I would like to see the S350 here it sounds like a good idea. Maybe it could be a shoe in to the S430? It is the only engine with that spec in the line now.

On a side note, does anyone know if the new XJ8 will be offered in a long wheel base version?
Bryan

michael_mattox · August 2003

Perhaps you missed my question...or..I missed your answer....Have you ever driven an LS 430?

fintail · August 2003

When I see an old LS at 400+ K miles as I have seen more than one S class, I will believe it. I am sure footie has the free time to find an example of a likewise LS.

They still make a very good 6cyl S class, and a diesel one too, and sell them in big numbers elsewhere. MB's marketing dunces just don't see fit to offer it here. I believe such vehicles would sell

benzowner · August 2003

Mercedes Engines Will go on to prob. 500K or even 600K we have had several hit over 700K and still going Strong when we sold them. Mercedes is just having trouble with ELECTRONICS.(Not all of there models have the ELECTRONICS problem Either)

merc1 · August 2003

What always happens here is that people come in with basically nothing to add to truly meaningful discussion, with incorrect information about hp figures etc and then when it's proven to be incorrect there is no response other than someone is lying. If its not in a JDP survey it doesn't mean anything, nor is anything else possible. JDP is the end all of the automotive world.

M

merc1 · August 2003

More details and interior photos:

http://car.kak.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=news&file=- article&sid=1142

M

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