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Lexus has highest torque. MB and Jag trail.
When 2004's are out for all models we can revisit. Both Jag and Audi are up in 04 from 03. I supposed MB and Lex will be too.
For those of you for whom seeing is believing, links follow:
From the following sites: Lexus, MB and Edmunds
Click to follow to actual data:
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/features/specs/o- verview_engine.jsp&modelCode=S430V&class=03_S&spec=0&- amp;menu=3_1
S430 275 hp @ 5,750 rpm 295 lb-ft @ 3,000 - 4,400 rpm
http://www.lexus.com/models/ls/specifications.html
LS430 290 hp @ 5,600 rpm, 320 lb-ft @ 3,400 torque
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/jaguar/xjseries/100171794/standar- d.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.leftsidenav..7.Jaguar*
(only 4.0L)
280 hp @ 6100 rpm 277 ft-lbs. @ 4250 rpm
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/audi/a8/100164586/standard.html?t- id=edmunds.n.prices.leftsidenav..7.Audi*
(only 4.2L!)
310 hp @ 6200 rpm 302 ft-lbs. @ 3000 rpm
Horsepower: A8, LS430, Jaguar, Mercedes
Torque: LS430, A8, Mercdes, Jaguar
M
Let's move on.
I'm sure you guys know Horsepower doesn't tell the whole story. I think the old XJ had 290 HP and not 280 as reported. Not that it makes a difference. Does anyone really care whether their car can do 0-60 in 6.5 sec instead of 6.2? Everyone ought to know Lexus builds a solid car on par with pretty much anyone. If you want to drive like a race car driver go buy a M5, pure and simple.
I think we've (Lexus enthusiasts) all have our fill of the Lexus bashing crowd. Moving on..What do you all think of the '04 LS430 revision? (You can get the pictures at the Japanese Website of Toyota) I thought it looks more aggressive, but preserves the look. The Autospies pictures were WAY off, thank godness. I'd hate to have my '02 LS look old only after one year of ownership!!!
Here's a question for the whole forum. Do you all think Automakers are cramming too many electronics into their cars? I feel they are focusing less on the mechanics in favor of developing new toys for their customers.
Your thoughts would be appreciated,
SV
I also think at some point in time we will see car manufacturers making "purists" versions of their cars, with no or very scaled back electronic intervention for some models. With big cars like these, you definitely want electronics to assist when the going gets rough, because a 300HP large and heavy car set free is no easy thing to control. As to interior electronic ammenities, to this day it amazes me that they invest so much money into their silly and misconceived user interfaces, instead of going for a familiar computer interface (the new Microsoft PocketPC or so) - I mean, use *graphics* if you're making things this complex, for heaven's sake! All those rolling menus are anachronistic idiocy.
I also like the fact that the styling doesn't jump out and say look at me..as you said we all have different tastes.
Thank you for your honest and balanced evaluation.
What cars did you end up seeing or driving/riding in last weekend and what were your perceptions of them?
Well I didn't get a chance to see a Maybach at the Benz dealer, they didn't have any around. I guess this strictly by order thing is for real.
We looked at the Acura TL-S, TSX, Passat W8, and the Infiniti G35. Now I'll tell you honestly the G35 Coupe could be my next car whenever I decide I want another car note, I haven't had one since 2000. I love the power and styling overall. I'm not crazy about the rather thick looking rear bumper on the coupe, and some pieces of the interior are cheap feeling/looking.
Anyway back to the sedans, which is why we went in the first place. My friend likes the G35 sedan the best, he as did his uncle hated the TSX, mainly because in automatic form its too slow. We'll go back to the Acura dealer in early Oct to see the new TL. The salesmen were talking as its going to re-write the rules of the entry level market...we'll see. The Passat W8 is almost impossible to find in the Sport configuration. The regular W8 is ok, but it really does need the sportier chassis setup to appreciate the W8 engine. I stand in awe of the Toureg, it's got a knockout interior, and in V8 form is a very complete truck. Dealer says the big vee-dub will be here in Oct, with the V8 going for about 60K and the W12 for about 75K. Can't wait to see that.
Where are you in your decisions for 2004? Range Rover, SL500 and LS430? Or is it LS430, SL500 and LX470 or GX470? I guess you can tell I really want you to try one European car huh..
M
The Passat is a much better car in 6 cyl configuration - pass on the nose heavy W8. A colleague bought one and hates it since he rode in another colleague 6cyl...
Also agree on the Infiniti G35. European prestige vendors better start taking note of the stuff Nissan corporation is doing, because Ghosn has implemented the most remarkable turn-around witnessed in a while: keep the built quality, spice up the design, and explore lifestyle niches other vendors with less imagination haven't tried.
Totally agree on the Touareg - awesome interior.
The side show to all of this is the hp war between the German automakers.
Your concerns have been heard by Mercedes-Benz of all companies. In a recent article in Automobile Magazine and Britian's CAR Magazine, its reported that Mercedes has decided NOT to go ahead with even more complex things like automatic lane correction, among other almost unbelievable things. They (Mercedes) thank god, have also decided not to try and match BMW's idrive concept. The next Comand system is to be designed by Nokia, instead of their current supplier...it should be much simpler to use and more reliable.
BMW has obviously heard the complaints too, as the 5-Series' idrive controller is reported to be much simpler. Audi got wind of the whole thing much earlier and made the A8's MMI system much easier to use than BMW's idrive or Mercedes' Comand setup.
I'm anxious to drive the new 5-Series with it's new electronic variable-ratio steering rack though, in theory it sounds perfect, but the press will tear it apart if it lacks that all important "feel" that a BMW's steering is supposed to have.
I wonder what other innovations are coming down the pike from any of these brands?
M
Bryan
M
Merc, I'm glad to hear MB is holding back on implementing an iDrive concept. That sort of thing drives me crazy. I think it's better if Automakers focus more on the drivetrain and interior design.
Obviously some innovations such as Traction Control and ABS are welcome. I like the Heads up Display on the new 5 Series. It's a good way to keep the driver's attention on the road where it should be. But, gimmicks like Voice Activated Controls on my LS430 annoy the everlasting hell out of me.
As far as the HP wars..What are you going to do with all that power? In Massachusetts, you'll be pulled over after 70 MPH. Unless you live in Montana, what's the use? (Of course: Bragging Rights) I don't really care that my LS430 has 40 more Horsepower than my older LS400.
As for the future..It'd be nice to see automakers come out with a simple attachment to integrate any current cell phone into the car Cellular system. I know this is hardly Innovation, but it would be useful, as I'd rather not spend $700 just to get the "Lexus" carphone!
SV
I think that systems like idrive, and MMI, are great concepts. But they need to be done right. I'm sure that after time, they become easier to use.
And even if Mercedes stays away from a system like idrive, there is no doubt in my mind that this next S will be a technological tour de force. Let's just hope Mercedes doesn't take any styling hints from the BMW killer, Mr. Bnagle!
Bryan
The car is estimated to have a useful life of 500,000 miles. Does anyone know the pedigree of this car and how much it costs?
I don't need to make any car decisions until February.
I'm likely staying LX and LS. I'm a year or two away from my toy car and that is when you will likely get me behind the wheel of an MB SL500. I saw a guy behind the wheel of a new SL500 today. He was enjoying a big fat cigar and looked like a very happy camper. He was headed south on the New Jersey Turnpike - top down - with me at about 75mph - away from all those big power outages in NY. I passed him rather easily in the LS430 by the way.
The Infiniti is a real good looking car and one you will enjoy if you ever go that route. It's great to have so many choices and all of them are excellent cars.
The bottom line, though, for me is not acceleration or top speed but aethetics, safety and innovation. I find the Lexus to be consistantly insipid and lacking in inspiration.
A boxy Camry from sometime in the early 90's with 4 cylinders passed him as well and then went zooming past me. I find the LS to be a great car, fun to drive and plenty powerful. It's a matter of tastes. You don't like it; I do.
The Miata is a great car, when they came out in the early 90s, a very good friend of mine got one, and I toyed with the idea. But the Mini is the only sub-30k car in the US that appeals t me - in Europe things would be different, they have a slew of smart, spiffy and very stylish little cars.
ljflx,
Ok..I see. Well in either case let us know what you decide.
M
You are absolutely correct about autospies. I didn't care to read through half of the stuff tonight, becuase I had already heard about it. And, their "world exclusive" bits about upcoming models, look fabricated. I'll have to take a look at the websites you listed.
Bryan
Anyway guys, Maybachs, Bentleys and Rolls-Royces are Camry priced compared to this:
http://www.germancarfans.com/News.cfm/NewsID/2030814.003/volkswag- en/1.html
M
I LOVE the Pagoni Zonda S! It's the 2003 Peformance Car of the Year, CAR Magazine. Runner ups: Ferrari 575M and surprise...Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG.
M
LOL what do you do for a living?
My 22 year old nephew just took a Z. It's nice - real nice. Took me back in time to the last car I bought as a single person - the 1983 280ZX. Great car back then but horrendous electrical system.
Also did you see the Toyota Camry Solara? It looks so much like an SC430 from the rear. Whether you like it or not you have to wonder what Toyota was thinking.
i am new to the board.
i have a 2003 SL55AMG, Lexus GX470, and a 2002 S430. all of them are fantastic cars, except for my S-Class. It's been literally a pain in the a_s.
i finally decided to replace it with either of the following:
1) 2004 BMW 745LI (refreshed model)
2) 2004/2005 MB S-Class
3) 2003 S500
4) 2004 Audi A8L
5) 2004 LS430 Ultra luxury
i have owned many BMW, MB, and Lexus products. i had a particuliarily great time with lexus, having owned 9 LS400's. i recently traded in my wife's '99 ML320 for the GX470. i loved my old 3-series from the 80's, and my MB 300E coupe.
unfortunately, i had a terrifying experience with my '02 S430. i don't know which of the five to get. should i wait until the new models come out in a year or two, or just get a current model now and wait until the "bugs" are out of the new models?
and also, i caught my first in-person glimpse of the new Maybach at LA. It was at the dealership where i bought the SL.
although I really love lexus for its reliability, and performance (my LS400 was faster than my S430), i must say that lexus lost a loyal customer for the LS430. for the past few years, I always purchased an LS without a doubt, but last year, with the introduction of the new BMW 7-series, Mercedes S-Class (you really can't go wrong in terms of style with a big benz), and the upcomming Audi A8L, i suddenly realized that Lexus was lagging in avant-garde styling, interior design, and real, sporty performance. my son used to complain that he would get nausea by sitting in the rear seat of the LS400; the suspension was so mushy.
i got the GX because that was ideal for my family, but i'll stick with the german companies until lexus redoes their styling and sportiness. and its also because of that that i got the SL55 than the SC430.
Also, remember the Lexus slogan, "Almost as good as a Mercedes-Benz"!
Let's get real. Lexus makes great cars - every bit as good and probably better in build quality than the Germans. Reliability is far superior. Whether or not the cars appeal to an individual is up that individual. There is no such thing as a universal opinion.
To me a Mercedes has too much of a "I'm a Big shot look here". A Lexus LS 430 is every bit as good a car (actually in many ways better) and it doesn't project the need to lord it over the rest, That suits me just fine, Ultra quality, dependability and luxury in a plain wrapper.
I do understand others feel differently.
Now Merc1 thinks the LS430 copied the old S-class. So if you agree you must also think the old S-class is a refrigerator. Yet many hard core MB buyers (not fans) think the old S-class was the end of the great MB's. I don't agree - by the way - but those I know think MB veered too far from their normal path with the S re-design.
I think the Lexus slogan was/is actually "the relentless pursuit of perfection" (said passionately in the ads).
Anyway the whole business about Lexus copying MB syling cues does not bother me. What's more significant to me are MB innovations that don't make it into Lexus for several years (until Lexus has 'perfected' them so to speak). Yes, I've raised the dreaded and despised 'innovation' argument.
Like I've said before: I'm grateful to Lexus for keeping MBs feet to the fire. They are less likly to take their customers for granted when facing stiff competition.