High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · June 2000

I've added another car to the list, the A6 2.7t. It fits my price range and looks wise its rolling artwork. So here is the list for 2001:

C320
530i
M3
A6 2.7t

After looking at the M3 preview at BMWUSA, I want the M3 the most (right now, but its still about 11 months before I buy a car). Problem is the insurance for me is going to be ridiculous for the M3.

M

bmwaaron · June 2000

For the time it would take to put Lexus on the glass, they wouldn't be able to build that much of a better car. If these cars are strictly renamed because they are in America, why are they so much more than a regular Toyota? And if it's the luxury series, it needs to be distinguished from the other cars.

hello26 · June 2000

I've been reading Audi topics in which I've read some of your posts. I wondered whether you were still considering any. I posted in regard to this at your Mercedes topic.

bmwaaron,
Ok. These cars are renamed for the American market. The reason they are so much more than a regular Toyota is: they are not regular Toyotas as you put it.
Windom is an ES300 in US, Windom is a Windom in Japan, Camry is another vehicle. Toyotas range from Echo-Crown. You don't say to Honda: the Acura NSX is really a Honda: NSX is really an NSX.
In terms of it being distinguished I wish enigma
was here to point out the obvious fact that Lexus sales are fine.

quattro_pearl · June 2000

I've spoken to Enigma and read many of his posts although he's quite informed, when you get him started, you'd think he was one of the many "maxima" owners on Edmunds you must be looking to watch a war. hehe :-)

merc1 · June 2000

Yeah it's the looks of the A6 that keeps me think about what it would be like to own such a beautiful car.

M

hello26 · June 2000

I drove a humble 4000 and it tracked the road at speed like a railroad car on a laser beam. TT didn't live up to this but I think the A6 Q would.

You mentioned looks. Of course A6 is related to TT, Passat, New Bettle, Boxter These relate to the great history of Porsche-- Volkwagen in the 30's, 956, 9ll. These designs reflect formal and informal associations between Volkwagen, Audi, and Porsche. The longest I owned a car was an early 60's Bettle. I've always like these cars and I think Volkwagen Audi has been better at drawing on its history than anyone else including Chrysler.

hello26 · June 2000

No bmwaaron has a point. The cars are different by degrees.

quattro_pearl · June 2000

No not me. :-)

benjamins · June 2000

It's a shame, the Q45 is not in this select company and many don't even consider it when considering cars in this class. For me, the Infinitis are closer to the European type of feel with a firmer more direct ride and handling than Acura and Lexus. The first Q45 was interesting but the second generation was oh uninspired in both exterior and interior styling.

The next Q looks interesting, much better styling within and without. Hopefully sales will pick up with this one. I think the car is as good as Lexus but different.

Are Q45s as reliable as LS400s?

benjamins · June 2000

Merc,

I agree the Audi A6 is a beauty. Drives like one too, very, very impressive machine. I like that they offer 3 different interior "themes". I'm just not totally convinced about the rear end treatment. Some days it looks like it flows and the car looks sleek and advanced, other days it looks like almost like a big hatchback.

hello26 · June 2000

No Q45s are not as reliable as LS400s. Search Edmunds if you want to know. It's not even close.

Honda, fake Ferrari
Lexus, fake Mercedes

I think Infiniti, fake BMW.

mjvargo · June 2000

The Q45's are almost as reliable as the LS400. The only weak links to watch out for are the old Active model and the old T models with the 4 wheel steering. The Active Hardware is expensive to replace if it was not properly maintained ditto for the HICAS Hardware. The pre-1997 Q's also represent a much more performance oriented bang for th buck buy than an LS400. Even the new Q's offer much more for your money than the lexus.

I think the 2002 Q is going to represent a return of Infiniti as a performance first, luxury second car maker. It's also better looking than the strange Avalon/S-class lovechild looking LS430.

marsha7 · June 2000

Interesting that you point out the Q45t with 4 wheel steering. Our 1988 Prelude has 4WS, the greatest thing since sliced bread. Too bad Honda gave it up in 91 or 92, I wish more cars had it. A $1200 option that was worth its weight in gold.

kappaman · June 2000

Believe it or not, I just test drove an Audi A6 yesterday. For the price, it is something to seriously look at. The car drove well, handled corners and bumps well, has a lot more room than I imagined. The birds-eye maple look better than the it does in the Jaguar S-type. I was really impressed...impressed enough to possibly buy one. I've admire the A6 for a while, but my wife would not go along with the ideal of an Audi. Now that she as drive in it with me she is thinking, maybe. It seems that you are making your choice harder and harder.

A6,530i,C320..decisions, decisions. My pick would be the C320 first still. As long as it performs the way the writers are saying. BMWs scare me now that I've own the 740il(electrical problems). Second would be A6, probably only because the C320 is newer in design. Good luck on this one.

merc1 · June 2000

This is true, I think it has to do with the body color and the surround for the license plate area. Darker colors look better, lighter ones don't. Good observations.

Kappaman,

I making the choice harder, but I love problems like this. Today I'm really "feeling" the A6 too. I actually have gone 24 hours without thinking of the M3 or C320!

M

merc1 · June 2000

I'm surprised that you would call Lexus fake, considering how much you like them. I see that it way of course, but there is no argument about their quality. If you want the best Japan has to offer the choice is clear. I think Honda/Acura has the engineering prowess to match Toyota/Lexus easily it just isn't in the right models, nor is Honda willing to do a S/LS/7/A8 competitor, probably because of money. It will probably be a long time before they do something like an SL, Z8 or SC430 too.

M

hello26 · June 2000

You wrote: It will probably be a long time before they do something like an SL, Z8 or SC430 too.

"The arrival in 1995 of the NSX-T, with its removable targa top,..."

merc1 · June 2000

Doesn't count, not in the same category. The cars I listed are GTs not all-out sports cars. The NSX has been a market failure anyway, brilliant car, just priced ridiculously. I actually thought about a used NSX a few years ago until my Allstate agent said what it would cost to insure it.

M

hello26 · June 2000

That's sort of an ideological distinction. How much closer to a sports car could the Z8 be?
50's Germany or whenever Italy? That would be a hard choice.

hello26 consumer alert: you are insane if you have the money in your account and you do not buy an SL today.

merc1 · June 2000

The Z8 is too heavy to be a real sports car. Real sports cars are Ferrari 360 Modena, Corvette, Porsche 911 Turbo, Diablo, NSX and so on...

I agree everyone should get all the SL's Mercedes can produce because they'll never be another SL like it again.

M

hello26 · June 2000

Z8 3495 lb
NSX engine 2 3204

295 pounds? Is an Aston Martin with 6 speed manual a sports car? 4024 lb

I haven't drive a Z8 of course. I haven't drven an NSX. I would think however that the experience differed from an SL.

merc1 · June 2000

No the Aston is a GT also. Too heavy for real sports car work.

M

merc1 · June 2000

The magic number if there is one about 3200 lbs, and a manual wouldn't do a thing for my beloved SL, it's basically a very stylish tank. The SL needs at least a 1000 pound weight reduction and completely different tune in suspension. GT is for Grand Tourer. Like the old BMW 850Ci, Mercedes SL, Aston DB7, and the like. They are fast as hell, but lack the verve/edge/nimbleness of a 360 Modena or 911. Even the 911 (except the turbo) has moved closer to GT status with it's latest re-design.

M

ferarri11 · June 2000

anyone bought the A8L yet?

bmwaaron · June 2000

I'm not exactly sure what the A8L is...

Is it like a 740il, L as in longer wheel base, or just something entirely different?

scongro · June 2000

no, you're right. the A8L is just a long-wheelbase version of the A8(113 to 118.5)

kappaman · June 2000

The Audi A8 is an amazing automobile. It reminds me a lot of the BMW 740il. Haven't bought an Audi though, and I've owned most of the luxury car lines. Why? Probably for the same reason that I didn't buy the LS400(bought ES and SC before). When it comes to the "BIG BOYS", I only buy Mercedes S-class, BMW 740il, and Jaguar Vanden Plas. For the top dollar the LS and A8 just don't do it for me. Not to take away from either car, the both are amazing automobiles.

Maybe its a design thing. the A8 is to plain(exterior) just like the LS. One good thing though is that it would be an exclusive vehicle, like the 740s and XJs use to be.

ferarri11 · June 2000

the next A8 will probably be more of a headturner, in the same vein as the A6 and TT. the A8 looks like the previous generation of audis with little visual excitement, though it does look pretty good still. hope audi offers atmospheres in the next A8 like the A6 and A4.

bmwaaron · June 2000

I liked the way the 5000S or something of that nature looked, but the new ones (all models) are just plain ugly, in my opinion. When it comes to the "Big Boys" I only look toward MB, BMW, and Rolls Royce.

ferarri11 · June 2000

i cant see why you think this, audi products are far more elegant and beautiful than their MB counterparts, other than the new S exterior. the E class looks awkward and the trunk has a boxy shape to it, BMWs are gonna have ugly taillamps in the the next few years a la 3 series. the old s class really looked like a tank with the three pointed star attached...it's funny, in Europe, the old S is rare, I only saw about 3, vs about 20 A8 and 15 7s.

ferarri11 · June 2000

when is the new XJ series Jags coming out, and does anyone have any spy photos?

kappaman · June 2000

In two years according to the dealer. No spy photos so far though. I hope they don't make it to retro. The new bmw 740 will probably come out the same time.

ferarri11 · June 2000

that will be a difficult battle between the two- beauty vs brawn!!! though they both are beautiful and brawny in their own ways

quattro_pearl · June 2000

including A8 W12 http://www.motor-presse-online.de/Zeitschriften/ams/index.htm it is in German, but has lots of info if you know German

bmwaaron · June 2000

I never liked the way the E-class (new ones) looked, or the new s-class, although the MB tank was the one everyone liked because they were some of the most commanding cars on the road, and my when my mom had her AUDI, all she had was problems, it was brand new and while on the highway, six hours after she bought it, the car died on the highway.

The New AUDIs aren't as elegant as a 740 or 750iL, but the Mercedes is destroyed, and AUDIs are in now way more elegant than anything, they're very plain, and the rear end is just ugly, it looks like it is all pushed up.

bmwaaron · June 2000

I never liked the way the E-class (new ones) looked, or the new s-class, although the MB tank was the one everyone liked because they were some of the most commanding cars on the road, and my when my mom had her AUDI, all she had was problems, it was brand new and while on the highway, six hours after she bought it, the car died on the highway.

The New AUDIs aren't as elegant as a 740 or 750iL, but the Mercedes is destroyed, and AUDIs are in now way more elegant than anything, they're very plain, and the rear end is just ugly, it looks like it is all pushed up.

ferarri11 · June 2000

i never like the tank car- it had no style. any car company can create a big car that looks imposing, it's more difficult to make a big car look elegant and sporty, which is the new S class. Have to admit, the 7 series has always been a greatlooking car, even rivals the benz, after 5 years. BMW is gonna have tough time redesigning the 7 because it'll be difficult to create an even better looking car. The A8 does need refixed rear lights, they are out of place in the lineup with the A6 and TT and A4. Those have better lights in back and look better.

mjvargo · June 2000

2002 for the new XJ body style. Expect a traditional jag grill but with headlights more like the S-Type. See the new Automobile Magazine(July issue) for an idea of what it might look like. Also expect more room inside and a 4.5L V8 putting out over 300HP (over 400HP in the XJR).

ferarri11 · June 2000

i wouldnt bank on that pic, its just what some graphic artist at automobile came up with...most of those so called spy photos have little to do with what the new car is actually going to look like

is4b2rd · June 2000

Hopefully the designers will keep the elegant lines while making it larger for a more comfortable (and competitive) interior. It will certainly boost there sales I am sure. Hopefully they won't go the Mercedes route and use cheap materials and plastics. Though the new S-Class is a technological marvel (at least for now), it has lost that special engineering cache that the old S-Class had. When you are paying that much for a car, I think I'd rather put out another 5 or 6k and have a car that is solid, not the rattly cheap plastic that the car has become.

I think the new BMW 7-series is going to be an even better car. The technology and I heard that the car is going further upscale because it was designed with the old S-Class in mind. Way to go BMW.

Advice to Jaguar, don't cheapen your new car with hard plastic bits, e.g. rear ashtray on the S-Type.

ferarri11 · June 2000

though the cheese terry cloth on the old s class was a bit unbecoming, i've seen many a complaint from reviewers on this bit of interior trim. the xj will be built on the s type platform though. i saw this in a european car magazine. it will be 100 mm larger, so about 6 inches longer too, as well as wider and higher. from their pics, it doesnt look too special in the same manner as the present models, like a buick. hope the artist is wrong on this...also i read that the A8 will be delayed for a while as the designers made a conservative design and a futuristic design that audi management didnt like either of them. so the designers are back to the drawing board. also read that audi looses money on every A8 sold, with all its technology. the new A8 chassis will cost half the present and be built twice as fast. the 7 series will trump the s class and be much more user friendly with its high technology...so much from a day at the book store!!!

bristol355 · June 2000

I am looking at a used '97 740iL vs '97 Audi A8. I realize that traction control can not compare against 4 wheel drive, but am wondering from 740iL owners how well the 740 handles in the winter.

Any other comments regarding comparisons is appreciated.

Thanks.

quattro_pearl · June 2000

Would depend on how you drive. 4 wheels with snow tires will be better than 2.

jesk · June 2000

everyone makes a fuss about the great lines of the jaguar. i agree that it is a pretty car. however, the engineering behind it is not even in the same ballpark as that employed by its german competitors. in addition, the interior of the car, particularly the shiftgate and dashboard, is crap. admittedly, i am not a fan of english cars and no one to this date has come close to convincing me that they are worth anywhere near the price that jaguar, rolls and aston martin charge.

quattro_pearl · June 2000

I think all the Germans (midsize) are better than the S-type. Royce & Bentley are mainly hand built, limited in production, use higher quality materals, etc.,not to mention only true luxury background. Meaning they aren't trying to spin off smaller models to make money or a name. Unlike the under $200k crowd. Things will be different now that the British cars have been sold to BMW, Ford, and VW. The Maybach sounds like it could be competition, but many ppl haven't heard of it. And the ppl who buy Royce's & Bentley's, don't like Mercedes. Anyone know if one can a Royce, Bentley or Bugatti.

ferarri11 · June 2000

cant understand your last sentence without a verb. and actually, bentley drivers supposedly have 9 of 10 time at least 1 mercedes also, so they dont hate benz cars. even though the S type isnt perfect, in Car and Driver or motortrend midsized lux cars, the benz was last and the s type was midpack. the benz suffered from high price and plain styling (dont really agree, but against the S type alone, yes)and dated design, but this is the test in which the lincoln came out on top (value was paramount). so jag isnt behind the germans really, and what little they lack can often be overlooked because of the sheer beauty of the car.

ferarri11 · June 2000

got a question for you, do you know when the screen navs will appear in audis? someone recommended i ask you

quattro_pearl · June 2000

in the last sentence, sorry. My statement about the Stype was just my opinion, not facts. My opinion based on Ford/Lincoln products and tryng to make a Jag instead of Jag doing it. Although the C&D compare of the more recent 40k cars, didn't favor Volvo, Jag, or LS. If the LS is anything to go by, it certainly doesn't feel like a Jag, nor any European car. Heck even the Stype doesn't feel like an XJ6 old or new. It may handle like one, but doesn't feel like it overall. I don't think just handling makes a car, hell the Mustang handles well too, it's RWD just like most police cars and most performance cars. The Q45t handles well also and is more of aluxury car than the LS and sounds more refined, etc.

As far as NAV goes, I read Audi has 3 overall. 1 in the instrument cluster currently. 2 Screen console type, that been out for a while in Europe and read is standard in the AllRoad 3 is supposed to give voice, screen, and something else, I have to find the site again.

kappaman · June 2000

I have been fortunate enough to have own an S-class Benz,740il BMW,ES and SC Lexus, and presently Jaguar Vanden Plas and XK8. All these cars have pros and cons. They all have some reliability issues(even Lexus,though it is the most reliable overall). They all are over-priced, over-estimated, and overly written about. I'm a firm believer that you really don't know a car until you have driven it for a year of so. Test drives only give certain clue, you can't trust most people word about their cars because they lie to save face, a lot of writers are bias and comparisons are skuwed. Basically, its a crap shot. You really won't know if you like the car until you drive it daily. You may like the design, but seats, radio,a/c, handling and so on come experiencing to auto. On the other hand, J.D. Powers and other give you the basics to go by.

Now that I've said all that, buy what you like. I bought a Benz, because it was what you by when you get some money. I bought the Lexus because their reliability was tested(Toyota) and I like the name. I bought the BMW because it was the best all around in features , handling,looks etc. I bought the Jaguars because I have been in awe of Jaguar since I was about 16 years old. It was my dream car. So I finally own what I really wanted. I bought all these luxury cars for prestige.

If you can buy any of these cars you are quiet lucky, or as I see it, quiet blessed.

mamish · June 2000

Can "a" dealer, or any professional set back a digital odometer on a vehicle or is it not a doable task, unlike analogue?

I saw a used 98-740 IL for sale at a local BMW dealer, which body and interior indicates more miles than odometer reading.

Also, I need to mention that he dropped his price a full $1,000 when I expressed my feelings towards the condition of the car. There were no dents, no scratches; just a personal impression.

Latest price at $46,900 with CD, rear electric sun shades and phone. Miles are 34,700.

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