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Comments
I actually test drove an S55 and and XJR within an hour of each other last month. They felt equally fast, but I did not take either car to the dragstrip for timing trials. For my "real life" driving, and ownership criteria,the XJR felt great, and felt sportier (maybe because of it's light weight) .... for $30k less money. Does that much $$$ mean anything to you, Merc1?
It is one thing to be an opinionated observer and commentator without regard to price. It is another to be a bona fide driver who has to deal with the price/benefit ratio. Some folks are car "fans" that seemingly aspire to convince the rest of us to agree with them. Others among us, are actually car owners in this luxury class, and we may have more pragmatic views.
I wasn't trying to convince anyone to agree with me on anything, I was merely tryig to point out the facts about the performance of the two cars.
M
Even the S55 comes at a very significant price premium over the XJR, so no, I don't think it is a natural comptitor because it happens to be the performance model. Price wise, the XJR offers itself to people that might be considering indeed the S430 and S500. Most car buyers first establish the price bracket they go for, and which cars fall into that category.
Furthermore, the Merc versions with the additional umph are rather recent, and there are still several 350HP S55s in dealers' lots. Those certainly can not dream of outperforming an XJR.
Reason one might be, these test drivers / writers / editors aren't shelling out their own, hard-earned cash. They're just driving around for free.
Reason two might be, that at least when it comes to high-end cars, only a relatively small proportion of the reader base is actually ever going to buy at the high end. For instance, Ferrari has sold 818 units in the US year to date, compared to Car & Driver's paid circulation of 1,387,113 (and it's "total audience"...whatever that is...of 9,898,000). In other words, most people reading about high end cars in the autorags are to a large extent dreamers that are never going to be in a position to actually pay for such a car. So they don't care too much about price either; the autorag reviewers understand this and cater to the dreamer.
So it should come as no surprise that the autorags will tend to side with a car that might be marginally "better" in some respects...even if it costs 30, 50, 100% more. Price and value just aren't that important to dreamers (unless the price is low enough to bring the car into reality-land for the reader). The dreamer is going to want to hear about ultrafast accelaration, ultrafast topend speeds, skidpad results, etc.; consideration of quality, reliability, and value are pretty boring reading for the dreamer.
I am looking forward to driving the Audi. Shopping for a new car is my hobby.
I was a bit put off by the sheer size of the A8. Michael Audi had one on the lot. It was Grey. The color was very nice. It did not feel as quick as the cat, but it was quick enough. You have to remember I am used to a 300e. All of the cars were 'quick' imo.
Then I made my way over to Mercedes of Fresno. I drove an S430, and was impressed with it, because it was some what familiar. It felt like a Mercedes and it drove like a Mercedes. I am still undecided...
M
I was originally very excited about the new A8L when I started my shopping. Even though I did not buy the Audi, it is still my favorite with respect to it's interior. I also respect the attention to details that Audi lavished on this car....In that regard, I consider it the best in this class.
However, after a couple of test drives I characterized the car as the ultimate luxurious cruiser, rather than sporting sedan. It felt a little too big for my needs. While it is only about 5" longer than my XJR it just feels like a much bigger car to me.
Of course, since Audi built the A8L as a big luxury sedan, this is not a negative comment. For people that are looking for a commodious, large, luxury car the A8L is hard to beat.
Had Audi brought the standard wheelbase A8 into the U.S. market,it might have fit my needs better.
In about six months, Audi will be bringing the new version of the S8 to the U.S. to meet the needs of a true high-end sporting sedan. I think this will be a really hot car....but it will probably be an $85k+ vehicle.
Thanks for your input,
Scott
I am looking for an 04 LS, Q, or 7 - the 7 excites me, but the Germans are not really up to par (own 2 MB's) on quality, and BMW seems to enjoy Yugo type quality. Actually surprised I don't hear it in the mainstream press....
The good thing about JDP is that they probably have a much larger sample size.
I really liked my 2002 Q45, but it is not a fair direct comparison to the XJR which costs about $15,000 more, and has about 50 more horsepower, along with bigger tires, wheels, and brakes.
As a competitor to the more basic Jaguar XJ8, the Infiniti Q45 is certainly worthy, although the XJ8 feels a bit more athletic to me, maybe because of it's light weight and responsive six speed drivetrain.
To tell you the truth, I do not really miss the so-called "tech" stuff of the Infiniti. Beyond the novelty of the voice activation, the logic of Q45's dash cluster was not particularly intuitive when handling a/c and audio controls. However, I do miss the tire pressure monitor, which the XJR lacks.
I have the Jaguar Navigation option, with it's touch screen on the XJR (an option on all XJ models). This system is very straightforward and logical...I find it more intuitive and easy to use than the Infiniti's dash pod and switch-gear.
I still think that the Q45 is a great car, especially for the money, if you can get a great lease deal, since the resale is not good.
I also think that a base XJ8 is priced well, since the basic XJ8 is actually priced closer to the Q45 than it is to a basic Mercedes S430 or BMW 745.
So to restate, has anybody had a GOOD several months with the new 7 series - mechanical and computer??
The good news is that they felt bad about the delay in getting this done, so they gave me a new XJ8 to drive for two days. That gave me the opportunity to spend some time behind the wheel of the '04 XJ8.
I have to say that I was really impressed. At low speeds the car felt similar to the XJR except for a slghtly lighter steering feel. Even without the XJR supercharger, the car felt quick and responsive.
Last night, I got the opportunity to push the XJ8 on a curvey canyon road. Sure, I felt more body sway and it was less "grippy" than the XJR, but it still hadled really well..I must admit it felt lighter and more athletic than my '02 Q45.
At one point I started to realize that I probably could have been happy with an XJ8--- for way less money than my XJR.....
Of course, that was until I went back and picked up my XJR and pushed the accelerator pedal to the floor....Yowza!
Well I decided to check the facts for the LS430 and S430
HP: LS430 290, S430 275
Torque: LS430 320 lb-ft, S430 295
0-60: LS430 6.3sec, S430 6.9
These numbers are from the company websites for 2003 models. For 2004, the LS gets a new transmission and Lexus puts the 0-60 time at 5.9. MB gets a new transmission too so its acceleration will improve also, but my guess is Lexus will still beat them.
Thanks for keeping us posted on the Jaguar. I am hoping to drive the A8L this weekend.
I was looking at the Mercedes message boards here, and was shocked to see all of the owners' complaints. S-class (command system) and E-class electrical bugs. I have had a deposit on an SL for one year, but I think that I am going ask for its return. I am #92 on the list.
I really enjoyed my 2002 LS430 Ultra, and may end up getting another one if I like the 2004. The Lexus may not be the most exciting car to drive, but I think that its reliability and luxury make it a rewarding ownership experience.
I think that the updates and tweaks on the '04 will make the LS430 a quicker car, and the styling chages, while subtle, make the car's looks freshened. Furthermore, your past experience as a satisfied Lexus customer means a great deal.
DonFenn - Perfectly stated.
I plead guilty.
All these cars are fabulous and play to different priorities. Thus there is no need to bash if any of the brands are targeting a different buyer. Choice is the ultimate luxury and freedom and it does double duty by holding prices down.
You're a basher when you don't agree, but when you do agree you're the most knowledgeable person around. Car magazines are so right when they say this, but when they say that, they're idiots.
Then you have those who don't understand any data unless it's in survey form, so talking performance or any other non-JDP covered issue with them is moot, because unless JDP covers it, it's worthless.
Now because you've come to a non-brand specific forum to discuss (with an opposite viewpoint) a car, or a different view you're in need to justify your purchase, like thats the same as if you were to call anyone "not-smart" or worse in the past because they didn't consider brand x first before chosing brand y.
M
They may just want something different on their next purchase.
You know. The grass is always greener on the other side.
I think for the most part they are not true car enthusiasts. They might have been car crazy at some point in their life, but not anymore.
If they own a Lexus they may want to see what the Mercedes drives like, etc.
So they own a Lexus for 2-3 years then buy the Mercedes, Jag, BMW, Land Rover, whatever.
next time around it is something different.
Their income is sufficient enough to where it is not really that important.
They may go back to the Lexus because it is cheaper to own.
Although I suspect that all of their cars never go out of warranty so they never find the true cost of ownership.
For me, my time is valuable. I will not continue to go back again and again for problems that are engineering related and probably unfixable.
My Oldsmobile dealer could have cared less if he fixed my car and my current Chevrolet is having issues which cause me to question it's long term operating expense.
My next car will be a used Lexus LS 400. End of story.
There will be no BMW or Mercedes in my driveway because I am scared of what it may do to my pocketbook.
I would guess that even the Mercedes supporters on this thread would agree that a Lexus is cheaper to own in the long term.
I am speaking of a '04 Lexus vs. a '04 Mercedes, BMW, jag, etc.
Not a 1981 300D Turbodiesel. LOL.
For others performance is more important, but right now with my income, it's the operating expense.
I will accept a little flabbier handling for long term peace of mind.
With cars, if you have personal experience with these cars it may mean more to some of us, than a person whose auto ownership experience involves cars which cost a fraction of these vehicles. That does not mean that these opinions are not valid, or are unworthy of an audience, but when these folks are constantly authoritative and argumentative, it is very questionable.......at best.
A Mercedes fan that has owned and loved Mercedes cars like boo20 is not in this category, and I enjoy factual input from such participants in these forums.
But I have thoroughy researched the LS400 and the things that I have found don't scare me too much.
Air conditioning is about $2K. can be as high as 3.5K if everything needs to be replaced.
Timing belt every 90K $600.
Suspension parts are another item that can cost a lot.
Fading LCD's in the IP. $3-400.
Speedometer needles can be expensive too.
I have a Toyota mechanic who can do things for me at about 60% of what Lexus charges.
Plus the payment will be far below what I am paying for my Chivalay with 48K miles. It just had a new front wheel bearing installed for $556!
Now you raised the point about the S430 and the LS430 performance wise. Yet, nowhere in the history of this board in other that debated Lexus and Mercedes did I read anyone saying the LS430 was outperformed by the S430 so I don't exactly know what the point was of bringing that up. Where did anyone ever say this? I'd like to see that claim. Even you, I see can tell by the sheer stats alone that the LS430 has the advantage performance wise over the S430, yet just a little while ago the same type of comparision was made between two different cars with a much wider gap in their "stats" and the advantage took forever to be seen, (if at all by some) simply because I'm not an "owner" so anything factual (that doesn't require ownership) is invalid. Going by this logic you have to own both a LS430 and a S430 to know which one has a performance edge, as the data can't be used.
M
Let me address, once again, the issue of reliability. My personal experience is that these cars are reliable (though, admittedtly, not bullet proof like the Lexus). I have had a few problems but this may mean I make one extra visit to the shop per year compared to what a Lexus might make. Not a huge difference. As I've said before the service intervals for MB are 10,000 miles and one year on average (sometimes longer) whereas for Lexus it is 5000 miles. So I save one extra scheduled maintanence per year which, for me, makes up for the extra visit for the occasional electrical problem that may arise. It is true that a small number of MBs seem to be plauged by problems and I think that this skews the statistics and makes the entire brand seem more unreliable than it actually is for most of the owners. MB lacks the consistency in reliabilty that I admire in Lexus.
I also appreciate Lexus for providing competition in the luxury car segment (and you should appreciate MB for the same reason as well)Otherwise we would all be paying much more for our cars than we currently are if someone had a monopoly.
Maybe if I were single, and impressing the ladies with better exterior styling and a 3-pointed star were important, things would be different for me.
Just saw a review on Motorweek or Spike TV. Can't remember which.
Check your local listings, it will be re-aired.
I was very surprised how negative the review was.
They said that the ride quality was not good at all and that bumps sent loud shocks into the cabin.
They also felt that it was slow and that the 0-60 time was only 6.4 secs. I don't know how you feel but, 6.4 secs is pretty quick to 60.
They really hammered it on the weight.
Said at 4400 lbs it was heavier than the last gen car and the heaviest aluminum bodied car they had tested. It really seemd to bother them a lot.
Only thing they liked about the car was the interior. Which is terrific.
i have never been in an A8 but have always heard that the ride is choppy due to the extra drivetrain weight up front.
I can guarantee you that the Audi will be in the shop more than ANY of the other cars we are talking about here.
Here are the figures (in liters, I couldn't find a site with cu ft):
LS interior 3036 liters, cargo 572 liters
S interior 2973, cargo 436
E interior 2752, cargo 450
I think its pretty clear that the E is in a different class, i.e., the E midsize and the others fullsize.
What the E (500) is close to is the LS's price. More a testament to MB's lack of value than anything else.
So if I want a luxury car with AWD (and I do) and don't like SUVs (and I don't) what options does that leave me with? Looks like the E or S class.
Different strokes for different folks.
Apparently Toyota has had AWD on the Celsior (LS's name in Japan) for years, but for some reason hasn't brought it to the US yet. Stupid, imho.
I've had a 1992 Lexus LS400 from the beginning. I can attest to the bulletproof LONG term reliability of the car. I've probably spent $3,000 in scheduled maintenance. I've spent $3.00 in a blown tailight bulb. That's it. Well..It was until some idiot girl smashed into my Left Front after blowing through a Red Light yesterday.:(
I won't belabor the board with that story.
Merc,
Last time I checked, my LS430 sure as heck didn't drive like a Buick. (I had an '89 Park Ave, Great car) I've consistently agreed with you when you criticize the styling of these cars. You're right in saying Lexus has taken a step back from the innovative designs that allowed them to establish a foothold in the industry.
I think others have pointed out well that the LS is a better value for money. Considering the S430 is more expensive, it ought to at least beat the LS in the numbers game performance. You're correct, however, in saying that these numbers are only a part of the story.
I think we all can agree Lexus fundamentally changed the Luxury car industry with it's entry in 1990. Attempting to classify any car as "better in design, prestige" is a subjective judgement at best. Lexus has proven it can play with and even beat with the "Big Boys" in virtually every arena, "Reliability, value, 0-60, Customer Service..." My personal opinion mirrors most on this board. Lexus needs to improve their exterior designs.
BTW: heard about MB's new 7 speed Transmission...Question: Is there really a need for all of this?
Cheers,
SV
Boo20 - I understand your point and agree with you completely. But I have an LX470 which treats 2 ft. of snow like a car treats a 2 inch hill pile of dirt. Nonetheless I, like Syswei, wish Lexus would make AWD available in the LS. But my old boss, who had the A8L I drove occasionally in the past (and it was a nightmare and in the shop so often I lost count of it) had to put snows on in winter otherwise the car was not that effective in the snow even with AWD. That is according to him as I never drove it in the snow. But from a financial standpoint (and since I prefer an LS430 over an S-500) I could lease an LS430 and a RX330 for a tad more than an S-500 AWD and I'd go that route first. But that is me. Now with all that said I will tell you that I love the S-500 and would be driving it (probably with AWD) if Lexus wasn't around. I think MB's reliability is far removed from Audi but it seems very difficult for anyone to replicate the exceptional reliability the Japanese have brought to the table. But if anyone can it will be MB and possibly BMW in the longrun. But only if both fix the issues at hand without rushing onto the next level. I'm convinced that is why MB reliability has slipped so much. I don't for a second think its the engineering or drivetrains.
They will also develop a 6 speed FWD transaxle with Ford.
imho, I think the I35 is the most bang for the buck right now, even though it doesn't have all the "latest" technology. It has so much - Mongo V6 engine power & torque (255hp/246 lb/ft), HID's, Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (compensates for variations in load, i.e. 1 passenger v. 2,3,4, etc.), Brake Assist (senses emergency braking and applies maximum force to the brakes), Traction Control, Front side airbags, seatbelt pretensioners & load limiters, Bose stereo (some would argue the value of this), great warranty - all for roughly $27K.
The TL is right there, also. Mostly just a matter of taste. More suave luxury with the I35; more sportiness with the TL.
I was thinking the other day, the I35 seems to me right now like the perfect realtor's car - style, luxury, size, reliability and value. Imagine, if you get the cold weather package, being able to offer your "rear seat" clients their own heated seats in the winter while you drive them around house hunting. :-)