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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    In an unscientific poll I have determined that the LS400 is the perfect Realtor's car.
    Since I am a Realtor and also 6'8", I won't be fitting into any I35.
    And since I conducted the poll the outcome was assured.

    In my office of 40 realtors there are 6 Lexii and
    7 Tahoes.
  • tturedraidertturedraider Member Posts: 159
    b4z - Yeah, since I'm 5'8" I never think about that height thing. It's kinda nice. I am comfortable in just about any car and my friends don't mind if they have to sit behind me. Although, I wouldn't mind another 3" or 4" in height. But, oh well, what am I gonna do? I'm a little too late for the growth hormone thing. ;-)

    I'm big (no pun intended) on the I35 because I'm big on value. So much car for about half (or less) of the current and imminent LS430. However, I certainly won't turn down an LS if someone offers to make the payments. :-)

    No Infiniti's in your office? Not even a Q or J?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Isn't the I-35 considerably smaller inside (and overall) than the LS430? Sure looks like it, and carries lots less clout, despite the good looks of the I
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes, I have stated that Lexuses ofter remind me of a Buick if more so in concept than in driving, depending on the model. Of course a Lexus drives better is easily 5 times the car, when it comes to build and engineering etc etc, but what they do share is the same philosophy. Neither of them are really that satisfying to drive. They're both dull in styling and design and do nothing for the lust factor, and they both cater to being quiet and lush above all else. There is never any mention of actual driving. Incidently, the press has also said this same thing, especially about the SC430 and the ES300. Buick also just identified Lexus as their target, so obviously they see some similarities. Again, I'm not saying that Lexuses are buicks, I'm saying that aren't worlds apart either. They're more similar than not.

    ljflx,

    The A8 is no different than any other awd car, it has to have the correct tires for the awd to be effective. All these S500 4Matic Sport owners around here are going to have to do the same thing (switch tires) once it snows.

    M
  • tturedraidertturedraider Member Posts: 159
    Yes, the I35 is smaller than the LS. It is in the same size category as the Lexus ES, but has a much more hospitable rear seat. The I35 has a more "sporting" character than the ES. 255hp/246lb-ft torque V6, lower profile 215/55 tires on 17" wheels and a firmer suspension. My mom has one and there is no doubt, you feel the road more in the I35.

    As far as clout, I find that in the general population (those who aren't into cars enough to be on these boards), Infiniti carries close to the same clout as Lexus.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Is based on the last generation Maxima.
    Has a very nice and luxurious interior and
    dealers are blowing the '03s out the door for 28K!
    The downside is that all FWD Nissans suffer from
    bad torque steer.
  • tturedraidertturedraider Member Posts: 159
    They're blowin' 'em out the door for $26,995 right now. That's with sunroof/rear sunshade pkg, splash guards and trunk mat, but not winter pkg.

    I've driven both Nissans and Infinitis for years and I've never been bothered by torque steer. And I don't drive slow! I'm usually the guy movin' out in front of the pack on the freeway....and in town....no more than 10mph over in town.....freeway's a different story. ;-)

    I'm driving a '96 Lexus GS300 right now. I've wanted one for years. I think the body on this car is art. And I found one in exceptional condition. But, I hate the stupid remote key. It unlocks all the doors at once (even my '93.5 Infiniti G20 had once for driver, second time for the rest) and there's no remote trunk release (again, even my '93.5 G20 had that). And I find a remote fob easier to use. But, I still like the car. I've always wanted a straight 6.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    tturedraider,
      I find it interesting you have a preference for a Straight Six. Here's a question I want to pose to the board: Is it necessary to have V-8 engines in these high end sedans? What are we getting for them?

    The first inclination will be "Power!, Lots of it!" But there are numerous examples of V-6 engines that can outperform some V-8 (Obviously not XJR's AMG MB's and M class BMW's) Does Luxury require a V-8?

    I've heard some in the Jaguar Forum lament that the old 6 Cylinder in the XJ6 ran smoother than the V-8 currently.

    Appreciate your thoughts,
    SV
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Straight 6's are inherently smooth.
    They can be even smoother than a V8, depending on the design.
    packaging can be a prob with a straight 6 especially in smaller cars.
    V8's are very compact, which is a plus and smooth also.
    I don't think power is the issue. it is a displacemnet issue.
    Although some people feel a V8 means it has a lot of power.
    If you really want to hear a smooth engine listen to a Packard straight 8.
    The ultimate in 8 cyliner smoothness.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    Re: 2004 A8:

    I am curious if those who found the new A8's ride to be choppy, were driving cars with the 19 inch wheels..and, what was the adjustable suspension setting on, since the A8 has multiple suspension modes.

    By contrast, I enjoyed a relatively smooth ride in the A8 that I took out for a long demo ride, but it had the 18 inch wheels. I noted that the test report which mentioned the "busy ride" of the A8 all used a car with the 19 inch wheels.

    I35..??:

    I am a long time Infiniti fan, having owned a few Q45's...but the I35 is out of place in this thread. I am very familiar with this model since I have had them as loaner cars on several occasions when my Q45 was in for service. It is a very nice, comfortable car, which offers lots of bang for the buck, but it is not in the same class with its big brother, the Q45, or any of the other cars in this luxury class. It is also a "lame duck" in its current configuration, as the car is get replaced in the next six months in it's new incarnation.

    6 Speed:

    This is not another copying issue....I think that 6 speed transmissions are the evolution of the transmissions for most cars in this class. The new Jaguar XJ's have 6 speeds. I find the main virtue of the 6 speed to be an improvement in fuel economy due to a more efficient drivetrain. The upcoming seven speed Mercedes trans is a further incremental step in transmission evolution.

    6 cylinders vs 8 cylinders:

    I think that a very nice car can perform quite well with six cylinders, but for high output performance, and ultimate smoothness, the V-8 seems to be the choice. I doubt that this will change. Of course, Acura has stuck with a very smooth 6 cylinder in their flagship RL, but that car is a notch below these cars.

    I think that some of the Jag owners who say the old six is smoother than the V8 may be trying to talk themselves into this, or they are comparing it to an older incarantion of the Jaguar V-8 engine...By the way, it should be noted the new XJ is being offered in a 6 cylinder form in England to offer the big Jag in a more affordable and economical configuration...
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    buicks and Lexus LS430....

    Have you driven an LS430, Do you really KNOW if it drives like a Buick?. For that matter have you ever driven a BUICK?

    PS Your comments about not needing to have owned a car to post your opinions are absolutely correct and I don't think anyone on this board has ever stated otherwise:

    I would certainly agree that the Looks of a car does not require prior ownership to have a very valid opinion on, it is a totally subjective judgement that we all can make.

    I also think you would agree that having driven a car would lend someone more credability on issues like fun to drive and handling, comfort and quiet then a person who has never driven the car would have.

    Finally I am sure you would agree that Someone who has owned a varity of cars like Mercedes and LS and BMW would probably be in the best position to compare the vehicles one to the other and would therefore demand the most credability.

    Speaking for myself I own an LS 430, I have only driven a Mercedes S class and have never driven a BMW. My knowledge beyond that is gathered from friends and car magazines.

    How about you.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    You need not own a car to comment, or to have a valid viewpoint. However, I appreciate the input of those that have actual experience with these cars, whether it be Mercedes Lexus, BMW, etc., to those that never have.....

    If the driver of a Ford, Mitsubishi or Honda is astute, and moderately respectful to those that actually have real life driving and ownership experience with these luxury cars, it would mean a great deal more than a person that continually wants to make them self into the ultimate authority, and argues every one of his subjective opinions into oblivion. It really seems silly.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    As respectfully as possible, I'm going to post my last answer to you. Your posts make no sense to me most of the time. There was the thing about innovation which got twisted. Then there was the issue about peformance about two cars, which you later claimed that there are other factors involved, of which there weren't. Then there is the constant assumption about what I've driven and haven't driven. I don't know how you long you've been on this board, but it's well documented about what I have and haven't driven.

    You always seem to come from behind whats being said to someone else for nothing more than to get me into an arguement, which isn't allowed here, so I think it's best that you and I stop here.

    DonFenn,

    I haven't tried to present myself as an "authority" to you. I merely pointed out that you were incorrect about the performance of the two cars in question at the time. You took it personally because it was your car I was speaking of and went on to knock what I drive (I did see your posts in other forums), and to try to make fun of it. I at no time said anything derogatory about you or you personal ride. Other than that S55/XJR thing, I don't even recall us ever really arguing over much else. My "experience" with cars of this class, doesn't come from ownership, you're correct. It comes from simply having family and/or friends that do, thus I'm not speaking from a dealership test drive. I haven't said a thing about long-distance comfort or ergonomics or anything that would require actual ownership.
    The things I've spoken about can be seen or experienced in a few hours or a day with this cars, especially when you like cars like I do.

    M
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I have politely ASKED you if you have driven an LS430...you have seemed to profess a great deal of knowledge about it's driving and ride qualities in relation to the Mercedes and more recently the Buick. Your unwillingness to answer does lead one to make an assumption.

    I have been on these boards for at least 6 months and would not have asked the question if I had known the answer...

    P.S. In the spirit of full disclosure, I have owned 3 Buicks a Century, a Regal and in the 60s an electra 225 convertable.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    Merc1:

    It has nothing to do with what I drive. You wanted to make a big case of .4 of a second when comparing a 130k car to a 75k car...You used to terms like "smokes" ..and other over the top descriptions.

    Meanwhile, I quoted two major sources in the automotive press which seem to put these cars in a similar class.

    However you did not use the term "smokes" when comparing the .4 of a second difference between a Mercedes S430 and a Lexus LS430....That is actually an even larger differential, as a ratio of the speed. Hmmm?

    Being the one who actually buys with these vehicles and lives with them, as opposed to being a rooting section for Mercedes, is a big difference. To be quite candid, some of your opinions are very strong for a fan, rather than a driver.

    Styling is very subjective. Strongly comparing a Lexus to a Buick is harsh. By comparison, I think that some folks might see a resemblance between the discontinued Buick Skyhawk and a Mitsubishi Eclipse too, but that is subjective. I might say it once, but I would then back off, and try to respect your opinion as an Eclipse driver.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thats just it, I never compared a 130K car to a 75K car. I only used the performance numbers of the 130K (S600) because they would roughly be equal to the car in question, the 107K S55. I spoke nothing about which was the better value. You're right I didn't use the word "smoked" to describe the difference between the LS430 and the S430, because you need at least a half second to make difference, if you were racing the two cars. However, the difference between those two other cars is more than 4 tenths of a second, it would be like a full second, and thats just from 0-60, if again the tested R&T figure for the XJR (5.1) or Car and Drivers figure of 5.3 secs is compared to that other similarly powered S-Class. That would be only the beginning of the performance gap between the two cars, if you really looked at figures here. I didn't any time state that one car was in different class from the other based on it's performance. I merely said that there wasn't much contest between the two cars performance wise. The data you listed was from 2001 and was irrelevant. It seemed to me that because I pointed out you were incorrect about the peformance of the two cars value had to be thrown in, though nobody knocked the Jag on that count, or ownership experience just because.

    M
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Not sure that the 0-60 comparisons here are that worthwhile.
    Unless we are comparing the "AMG to the "S" to the "XJR".

    The bread and butter luxury cars should be compared in material quality, interior/exterior design, drivetrain refinement, ride quality, cornering ability, audio system quality and maybe even character, etc.
    These are more interesting topics because they are subjective.
    I would think that there would be unlimited conversation about the above characteristics.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    That is a wonderful point...especially since we are talking about luxury marques.

    I do not wish to be exclusionary of any point of view, but many of those areas are of the most interest to me when they are addressed by folks that actually drive, and live with, these cars.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Did anybody see the article in last week's Automotive News titled "Bugs bite Mercedes quality; Glitches lead to go-slower approach."

    Basically the article says that Mercedes has admitted it has widespread quality problems and has had a difficult time debugging its increasingly complex electronics. Problems with Comand even forced Mercedes to buy back 2,000 E-classes from US customers. Mercedes is debating the need to adopt less essential technologies quickly.

    The interesting part is Mercedes' head of worldwide sales and marketing says that Mercedes is still very successful in terms of brand awareness and loyalty and that their image is great.
  • tturedraidertturedraider Member Posts: 159
    DonFenn - personally, I believe Infiniti fits in "High-end Luxury Marques". Though I'll grant you the I35 is certainly at the lower end of the scale. I like looking at, reading about and occasionally test driving the higher-end marques. But, when it comes to spending my own money [or my family's or friend's :-) ], I'm big on value, getting the most bang for the buck. For me, the I35 fits. I hadn't given the "I" a second glance in years, but last fall I happened to look at the I35 and was impressed with the refinements and improvements Infiniti had made to the car. It fit the bill for my mom and she ended up getting one. I've been home several times recently and I've been surprised how much I've enjoyed driving it. It kinda grows on you. Anyway, my real point is, to me "High-end Marques" covers a fairly broad range. (btw - I think Infiniti is doing a pretty good job of closing the "status gap" between itself and Lexus. Of course, my view is affected by my perception of value.)

    I haven't read way back in the posts here, but I get the impression from what you said that the discussion is of the more lofty luxury representations. There are several cars priced as high as $45-large I'd love to have the opportunity to own. Cheap (Frugal sounds better doesn't it?) as I am though, I'd have a hard time moving into the $50K and above arena. Going over $35K is a stretch for me to consider. I think the '04 Lexus LS430 is a gorgeous car, but even if money was not a consideration for me, I'm not sure I could justify to myself spending that much. But, of course, that's just me. Then again, I saw a Maserati on the Speed Channel the other day.....I'm just a contradiction in terms, aren't I? Oh, well.

    SV - I read an article several years ago in Popular Mechanics that said the engineering characteristics of the in-line six make it the most inherently balanced engine design. They were assessing BMW's V12 in the 7 series. They compared the sound of the engine on acceleration to ripping silk. Said the engine was like multiplying the benefits of the in-line six by two, making it twice as good. I've wanted a straight six ever since. I hope BMW never goes the way of Mercedes; succumbing to market forces and going to V6's. Even having said that, I must admit I love the Audi A4 Quattro with it's V6. I really like the V6 in my mom's I35. :-)

    b4z - I'm curious. When you drove Infiniti "I"'s as loaners, were they I30's or did you also have the opportunity to drive an I35? I've driven several I30's as loaners [1st gen (barely not a Maxima) and 2d gen) and I was never impressed. That's why I hadn't given the I30 a second glance and was quite surprised by the improvements in the I35.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    tturedraider, there is a line under the discussion title at the top of the page that explains what vehicles this discussion is generally about.

    We had an Entry Level Luxury discussion around here somewhere once upon a time - it's probably archived. I could dig it up and reopen it if you like?

    Edit: Actually, putting those three words in the keyword search on the left side of the page turns up three archived discussions. Check them out - if any interest you, let me know. Or start a new one if you'd rather - two of them are very old. :)
  • tturedraidertturedraider Member Posts: 159
    You're right! There surely is! I'm usually pretty good at catching the small print. I guess I'm used to looking for it at the bottom of the page.....(excuse, excuse) :-) My apologies to DonFenn. I'll have to think about starting a new Near Lux board.

    b4z - I'm still curious about your experience with the I30 v. I35. And whether none of your cohorts drive an Infiniti?

    See y'all in the funny papers.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    A "near luxury" discussion is actually what I was remembering - that term is worth a keyword search as well.

    Anyway, back to the topic ...
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    I will offer tturedraider this final comment:

    The I35 and I30 are birds of a feather, but the I35 got an evolutionary tweak with a bit more engine power/torque, and slighly better handling, due to the bigger tires and wheels.
  • tturedraidertturedraider Member Posts: 159
    I don't mean to be rude, but you're not saying anything I'm not already aware of. I've driven both of them fairly extensively and I can tell you the evolutionary tweak was a really good one. The engine is very stout and the handling is much better. A 12%, 28hp increase and a 13%, 29lb-ft increase in torque. The I30 was very floaty. The I35 is very well controlled.

    btw - Just for complete accuracy, Infiniti has announced that the I35 is continuing as a 2004 model. There is no reliable information out there right now as to the exact timing of its replacement. It may indeed have a short model year run or it may run for the complete model year. You are correct, it is pretty well accepted that 2004 is the last year for the current iteration. But, the prevailing opinion of those who speculated about the '03 I35 was that it would not continue as a 2004. Nissan has a model sold in Japan called the Teana that is "based" on the Maxima with more "luxury" styling. The Teana is offered with AWD in Japan and the the current prevailing speculation is that it will be brought over as the I35's replacement. This fits with Infiniti's stated plan to concentrate on RWD and AWD vehicles.

    Over and out.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    As an ex-owner of a 2001 XJR and a 1996 XJS previously, I can attest to the fact the i6-cyl was a smoother engine. Not that the V8 isn't civilized, but still an I6 engine has and will always have the better natural balance. It's well known in engine circles that I6 and V12 (two I6, basically) offer the best balance and smoothness. Physics facts about secondary vibrations and such.

    The gruntier V8 note in the higher revs is actually a rason for the popularity of the V8, since it's macho since the days of big V8s in the USA.

    In the end, the quest for total smoothness is self-defeating, though. Thnk of floating in a perfectly idolated, noiseless car... is that fun when you go for a spin?
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Actually, the Jag I6 in the XJS was so silky smooth that I think it outsmoothes the V8 in my "special occasion" car, an early 90s RR Corniche.

    But it's also a matter of the character of the particular engine (and exhaust system).

    It's one of those things - within the BMW range, for instance, I also think it's well-establshed that the I6s are actually smoother than the slightly more raucuous V8s: when the latter revs up it develops attitude, whereas especially the smaller displacement 6s just spin up like a little turbine.

    But at the same total displacement, it's easier to make make the 8 cyl spin higher, and probably -I suspect- make it more efficient all in all - smaller cyls can be fed more efficiently. The I6s can be designed to be a bit torquier. It's got to be with flows, the size of the cylinder, and the force of the combustion...
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    Here is a link to a new review on this site.

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/jaguar/xjr/100284195/roadtestarti- cle.html?articleId=100586&tid=edmunds.e.landing.featurereview- s..2.*

    What do you think DonFenn?
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    My local dealership has two. I hope to drive one this weekend. They are "different." I like the new style, except the back lights.

    So many choices....
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    I have mixed feelings about this review. I did not agree with some of the reviewer's findings, however, I lack objectivity, since I have an XJR.

    However, let it suffice to say that some of the Edmunds reviewer's conclusions are different than those in recent reviews of the XJR in both "Road and Track" and "Automobile Magazine"...

    In particular, I cannot agree with the reviewer's thoughts about the handling, and cornering, since I find the car very tight, and the steering quite responsive. The XJR feels like a much more responsive and sporting car in the curves when compared to the S430, S500, and Audi A8, which are luxury cars are in the same price range as an XJR.

    If you want to compare this car with an M5 or E55, the XJR may feel a bit softer, but this is a larger, luxury class vehicle. Therefore, the review's final comparison of the XJR with the smaller E55 seems inappropriate, since are obviously two very different types/sizes of vehicles.

    I will agree with the reviewer that the base XJ8 offers many of the XJR's attributes at a much lower price...In fact, I have mentioned that in my comments earlier in this thread. However, for me, the supercharger and the performance tweaks of the XJR do make a difference....Only the buyer can decide whether this is worth 12k to 15k of their money.

    One major error did stick out. The reviewer's complaint about the brake and accelerator height differential is way off base---since the XJR's brake pedal height is quite adjustable. Other reviewers commented favorably on this adjustability and adaptability. Hmmm? I guess the Edmund's reviewer could not figure this out.....So much for being a thorough journalist.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I have always been amused by most reviewers inability to relate to the British concept of a "gentlemen's GT". It is not supposed to be a sharp sports-car, for which it would have to give up some of the coziness that -as the whole itnerior treatment shows- are of the utmost importance to the car's philosophy. The fact the car comes with abundant performance is nearly a case of British humor: you sit as cozy and comfortably as if you were reading The Times sitting by the fire-place in your library, bloodhound at your foot, a cognac-dipped cigar in the corner of your mouth... and yet you can still set things ablaze. Look up "Bristol Blennheim" to try to understand the basic philosophy, but the new XJR does without the quirks and impracticalities. I find it brilliant.

    Reviewers seldom reward "personality" in cars - they tend to always go for the ultra-clinical and sharply performing, even when it's somewhat sterile. I admire German cars -heck, I am half-German- and have had a view, but think they're a tad too damn functional and lacking in humor. To me, when you get into the $50k+ car realm you are giving up rationality anyhow. I'd demand custom-to-fit, and since no one will design a car to my spec, it typically leads to a car with some traits that appeal to me, but deter others.

    I think it's stupid to make car recommendations for other people based on the premise that one knows which one the "better car" is, a presumption that unfortunately is common to car journalists. Instead of trying to understand the differentiating attributes and putting themselves in the shoes of the true target audience, they measure the car by never-changing standards that might work on $25k cars, but are somewhat laughable in luxury territory.

    It's idiotic to claim people should buy the E55 instead of the XJR because they'll lap the Nuernburgring 3 seconds faster. A $7,000 motorcycle will trounce them all into oblivion, so geez, save yourself $65k and buy that. All these performance sedan represent compromises, it just so happens these compromises make them the best choice for their very particular target audience.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    pablo:

    I agree. For me, each car has its very own character, yet many reviewers love to compare apples with oranges, in a less than realistic manner.

    The greatest feature of the XJR is that I can cruise around most of the time in gentlemenly comfort. It is big, refined, luxury car...Yet, I can agressively unleash the supercharger and use the car's high performance side at the drop of my foot.

    A Jaguar driver is not typically going to be comparing the XJR with an M5 or E55. The Jaguar driver is likely a person that likes the Jaguar characterics and cache, and opts for the performance variant with the XJR.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I always find it funny that with cars people are so religious about what supposedly "the best" is... but invite some friends over for a blind-testing of wines under $30, and go see if anybody agrees there. Fact is, it's probably harder to find a bad car that is over $30k than it is to find a truly bad wine that costs over $10 these days - and that is bad enough: there'll be wines you don't like, but it's hard to find truly bad ones.

    A wine enthusiast would not tell another "I think you should get the $20 Merlot because it's a better wine" when he knows the other guy is a Sauvignon Blanc fan and is considering to buy a case of Marlborough stuff...

    Apples and oranges indeed, so pointless.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    A newspaper reporter is looking to interview BMW and Lexus owners who previously owned or have considered owning a Mercedes-Benz.
    Please respond with your daytime contact info and your current vehicle model to jfallon@edmunds.com by Monday, September 29.
    Thanks for your consideration!
    Jeannine Fallon
    PR Director
    Edmunds.com
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    Here is a link: http://www.forbes.com/2003/09/22/cx_mf_0922test.html

    I haven't driven the car yet, but probably won't consider it since there isn't a local dealership.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Saw a RR while out on the motorcycle, and honestly I thought it underwhelming. Truly a sign of the times: European car design for the most is in unimaginative trouble, it seems largely disoriented on how to combine tradition with elegance and yet introduce innovation, and in my opinion this is opening a huge window of opportunity only (and inexplicably) the Nissan group is benefiting from.

    I can't think of the last high-end car design I truly liked right now. By far, I think the best design of the last few years is the MINI, which is a devastating score card for high end car designers.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I would tend to agree with you except that I did think the S-class was a fabulous design and I think Audi found a good balance with the A8. The new SL is nice looking though I don't find it as appealing as when it first came out. Long-term - I don't think it is going to be the classic car that the old model was. In NJ I saw one ad that listed about 30 of them for sale so the sales trend must be slowing. Nonetheless I still like it. There is nothing special about the rest of the MB line-up. BMW's new styling under Bangle is AWFUL and the new 6-series looks like a Pontiac Bonneville to me. The A8 is the only Audi design I like out of Audi's lineup. Jaguar styling has always been classic and remains so in my opinion. Maybe that is why they are so hesitant to make the revolutionary changes that MB and BMW are making.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It does appear the European car community is at a styling crossroads of some sort, though I hardly think that a few misteps in styling signals a crisis. Especially considering how many good looking cars they make compared to a few that aren't. Unlike the Japanese brands, which is servely the opposite.

    The BMW 7-Series started it, followed by CLK, Maybach, and now the 5-Series (more on it in a min). They all range from ugly (7-Series) to just not quite right (CLK). BMW may have missed it with the 7, but the 5 *might* prove to be a different story. Bill Jacobs BMW (Naperville) has a new 5-Series on the lot and it's not nearly as bad as the 7-Series, dare I say I kinda like it. It's kinda big in the hips and much more substantial looking that the old 5. The interior is so futuristic for a BMW and moves clearly away from the old "cockpit" theme of every BMW prior. I finally got a good detailed look at a Maybach 57 today also. MB of Naperville has a 57 model out front with MFR plates on it. One look and you can tell it's being driven by a MB/Maybach exec, the interior and exterior were very dirty and the tires looked as though someone had been playing E55 driver with the car. Anyway, I like the styling a little bit more now, it doesn't look at Lincolnish as I first thought, except for the grille. If anything it looks like the previous S-Class, but rounded off. I really didn't realize how big this car is, as it made the E55 next to it look like a C-Class. I still hate the rear end's red light strip.

    ljflx,

    I know you like or liked the SL, but what do you think of the CL. IMO, it's the best looking Mercedes going today. What changes do you think Mercedes is making that are revolutionary?
    BMW is the only one I see taking some serious styling risks.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I'll have to take a look at the CL when I have a chance. The last S-class body style which has now transcended to the E and C was a revolutionary change for MB in my opinion. It took the line to a sport luxury look from a classic luxury look. The latest design is best suited for the S - again - just my opinion. Actually when you look at BMW designs - particularly the 7 - they are going in the opposite direction.

    I still like the SL - very much. But when it first came out I thought it was a knockout. It doesn't bowl me over like that anymore but it is still a wonder car.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    The CL happens to be my favorite current Merc design, too. It is elegant and to the point, without unneccessary distraction thrown in meely for effect. I think excessive "character lines" are a general malaise with many current European designs, it seems the designers got tired of the clean surface, but I am not sure the public ever did.

    The purposeful, simple predatory feel of the traditional BMW design has given way to a "shock" design, and I have no idea why they want to play rebellious "let's shock our parents" teen strategies. It's a sign of insecurity, I guess, for according to CAR the 7 series re-design is complete and due for next year, an obvious admission of a blunder. BMWs always looked planted, now they look more bloated and top-heavy, and, dare I say it, Japanese.

    Audi and Jag merely stick to what works for their identity, and are successful with that perception wise. And I think that's what many high-end customers actually want: they want to buy into some notion of heritage and tradition, and that's better underlined design wise unless you want customers to re-consider things with every product generation...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well get ready because Audi is going radical too. The new 05' A6 (March 04' debut) is supposed to have the double grille design of Audis last three show cars, Nouvolari, Pikes Peak etc.

    I wouldn't go so far as the 7 looks "Japanese", but whatever it is....it surely isn't attractive. I still can't believe it when I see one with the 18-inch wheels which don't even fit the wheel wells.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    At the moment, I certainly give the nod to the new Mercedes style over the new BMW style. I think the Benz has really enhanced their looks at every class level, while staying true to their styling cues and theme. BMW is reinventing, and time will tell if they're on a good track - or (gulp) not!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm not giving up on BMW just yet. The 7-Series was a miss, but I think Bangle nailed it with the Z4, it looks just right. The new 5 isn't all that bad, so far from just looking at one in dealers lot. When I see it on the open road I'll be able to get a better look.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I'm a bit behind the times because this is from the Frankfurt show, but I find the Audi mid-engined concept (as pictured in the new Automobile mag issue) to be really really beautiful. Just one guy's opinion.
  • fennfenn Member Posts: 197
    There is little disputing that BMW pushed the envelope in recent styling decisions. The 7 series styling miscues are often discussed. The Z4 has not been universally well received either. I think that the Z4 is dismissed by many as an overly contrived and busy design.

    I like that Mercedes Benz has carried a similar design theme throughout their sedan line up. My only complaint is that the 2003 E class was the last of the MB sedans to get this treatment, so it comes across as almost too subtle of a statement.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well, I really like the new E Class redesign, inside and out. That's one nice looking package, in my opinion. I like the Gold.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I don't know the official color name but I saw an S-430 in a dark charcoal color (probably a $1k specialty color) with ash interior and thought it was the best color yet I've seen the car in.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'm betting that S430 you saw was either Tectite Grey or Obsidian Black. Black Opal is also a possibility.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The 430 is an 8 cylinder, right?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yep.

    M
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