High End Luxury Cars

nvbanker · October 2003

Was over looking at the new E-Class yesterday with a colleague of mine. What a nice redesign! Of course, I'm more of an S class guy, but that is a nice package.....

ljflx · October 2003

Looking at the colors on edmunds it was either the designo graphite or the black opal (which may have replaced the black obsidian, which I remember was an optional color in 2001). I don't remember either of those colors being available in 2001. The tectite gray on Edmunds looks too light but I remember that color very well from 2001 as it or the brilliant silver were the colors I would have gone with had I went the MB route. The tectite gray was darker in actual appearance than it comes across as on edmunds and it's possible it was that color. But the color I saw had a very rich lustrous look, one I can't ever remember seeing which leads me to think it was the designo graphite. A knockout color for sure - but unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see the interior of the car which likely would have confirmed it. By the way I don't remember any designo exterior colors in 2001 just the designo interior design option which was about $9k extra.

fenn · October 2003

Merc, you truly are a Mercedes fan. You even know all of the color names and codes. That is either true dedication.....or a serious obsession.

lenscap · October 2003

Speaking of dark grey, one of the Lexus dealers near me got in a 2004 LS 430 in Flint Mica. The car looks amazing in that color. Far richer than the dark grey on my girlfriend's father's 740iL.

merc1 · October 2003

Yep, it could have been any one of those colors as they tend to be similar at times, depending on the light. They still have both Black Opal and Obsidian Black, though the designo themes have changed. Designo edition Mercedes' are rare, but they are out there.

DonFenn,

I would call it being a true fan, certainly not an obsession as I could have gotten any old (read cheap) Mercedes just to say I have one. When I do step up I'm going to do it oh-so right. Mercedes remains my favorite brand, if not always my favorite car in each segment. Entry level, I like the Audi A4 better than the C-Class for example, but when it comes to the S, SL, CL and E there is precious little else that I like more, as far as luxury cars go. Audi is just a redesign (A6) from replacing BMW as my second favorite, as BMW seems determined to erase all of their design language from the past 15 years (that I can remember).

M

boo20 · October 2003

Just for kicks I test drove a new (2003) E 500 sport the other day. I wanted to compare it to the S class I had driven. Unfortunately they didn't have the non-sport model so I put the suspension in the most 'comfortable' mode. My first impression is that this is an absolutely solid car. Nothing that Lexus makes comes even close. I also felt that the ride of the S class was much better. How much of that is simply based upon design and how much were the large wheels and sport suspension of the E class I don't know. I have heard it said that the air suspension on the E is almost as good as the S so I'll just have to try another one and see.

After driving this car, though, it reaffirmed my impression that there is NO WAY I would ever buy a Lexus.

nvbanker · October 2003

I've see a few around here, but that's not a surprise given the bent for excess in this town. I don't care for the orange interior trim in them. They're a bit over the top, IMO>

ljflx · October 2003

I said on the LS board I thought the car would look great in that color. I'm anxious to see it. I think that cypress color and possibly the briarwood pearl will also look great. But the heavy favorite for me right now though is the flint mica with ash. My neighbor just test drove a sport suspension 2004 LS and said the car is fabulous. He said that the ride and handling are better than ever. He's taking it in black with ash interior. Amazingly the car (with the the modern luxury package) has more things in it than the 2001 he's turning in and yet it is $150 cheaper in MSRP. How do they do it? But I'm not about to complain about it.

Merc1 - did they have exterior designo colors in the past? As I said I only remember the interior option when I was shopping.

merc1 · October 2003

Yep they had both exterior and interior designo packages back then.

nvbanker,

Yeah they are a little out there for me too. Though I do like the wood choices. I wish Mercedes would elimate these as "packages" and just offer the way out wood and leathers under their special 1K order program.

M

ronjonaz · October 2003

Does anyone know the real deal on Lexus Link on the new 2004 LS 430? I have searched all the electronic and printed literature and brochures and cannot find any references to Lexus Link on the new models. I talked to a couple of sales people and they gave me a song and dance about not being sure if many new cars will be equipped with Lexus Link because of some undisclosed marketing approach. I have Lexus Link on my current 2001 LS430 and it is important to me to continue the service if I purchase a 2004 model.

pat · October 2003

Ronjonaz, stop by our ongoing Lexus LS discussion. Your question has been the subject of conversation there recently - read back a few pages to catch up and then ask whatever questions you may still have.

Welcome! Let me know if I can help you find your way around.

lenscap · October 2003

"Just for kicks I test drove a new (2003) E 500 sport the other day...My first impression is that this is an absolutely solid car."

Obviously people have different opinions. No one car is for everybody. But I'm curious if you saw this letter in the most recent AutoWeek:

"I have owned three E-Class Mercedes: a 1990, a 1994 and a 1998 4Matic. The quality between the 1990 and the 1998 is quite different. Gone is the rock-solid feel and the parts quality...Mercedes has changed the quality of its cars, and I will likely not buy another one."

sv7887 · October 2003

"My first impression is that this is an absolutely solid car. Nothing that Lexus makes comes even close"

I just love these unsubstantiated statements..Everyone knows that Lexus builds cars with bulletproof reliability. Even the diehard Benz loyalists on this board acknowledge the Lexus edge in the realm of quality. I don't think I need to start the usual rant about how the surveys show this..

As for comparing the E500 to a LS430, you might want to mind the $15-20K price difference. The LS doesn't compete with the E but rather the S-Class.

Something I wanted to bring up...The Lexus dealer and the body shop have had a jolly good time repairing the damage that fool wreaked on my 92 LS. They've literally had to replace everything attached to the Left Front Wheel. (The car took a 30MPH impact on the Left Front) The body parts are more expensive than those on my LS430! (Scarcity I assume?) I demanded that no aftermarket parts be put on the car. The Lexus dealer didn't even think aftermarket body parts existed for the LS400. (I'm somewhat skeptical.)

The body shop warned me that they might have trouble matching the paint on a 11+ yr old car, and have requested an additional week to get it right. (It's already been 11 days) Does anyone have any experience with this?

SV

ljflx · October 2003

You've got to be kidding!

Sorry - I'm not a person that has to knock one car or one brand to praise a decision I made to buy another. If you want to knock a car because your a fan that's a different story. But this isn't a sports type of board. The LS430 is probably the most bullet proof car made based on everything I've read - reliability studies, awards and accolades year after year plus my own personal experience for 8+ years now. There are a host of other cars that are probably as or nearly as reliablle but they are all made by the Japanese. But regardless of reliability the body build on an LS430 is incredibly high quality. I've driven the E-430 4natic many many times, admittedly the old model - and it isn't close to an LS430, nor is it close to an S-class. Among other things it rattled annoyingly. The e is a completely different car. It doesn't have LS430 or S-class refinement, smoothness or quietness. Now the S-class and LS430 are quite close and here it is a matter of preferences. Neither car blows the other way.

boo20 · October 2003

My comments were about the 2003 E class. When I bought my first Benz in '94 (C class) I had test driven the LS and liked the ride of the C class better. Thought it felt more solid although it had a very conservative design before they redesigned it. This is not "bashing" Lexus in order to "elevate" MB. It is a statement that I drove both cars and was sold on the MB. Since then I have purchased a '99 SL and '00 E 320 4 matic. I completely agree with the observation that these cars do not feel as solid as (even)the '94 C class. However the 2003 E class I test drove the other day seemed to exude the solidity that MBs of old had a reputation for. Note that saying that MB has a more solid feel than a Lexus is not the same as saying that they are more reliable. On repeated occasions I have ackolwedged that Lexus is more reliable. I do think, however, that this difference in reliablity is over-rated and is complettely trumped by MBs better aesthetics, ride, safety and innovation. The E class is the appropriate comparison to the LS430. I believe that the E is a btter car overall. The S clas is in a different class (no pun intended) altogether and is so superior to anything Lexus makes that it's not a fair comparison (also different price point).

nvbanker · October 2003

Yes, but, your power windows in the LS430 will probably not fail and drop into the door, and your A/C will probably work without a problem. In the S class, that's not a sure thing, trust me.
Does that make the S a bad choice, no I don't think so. Just a different priority. Depends on what you like, bulletproof, or 150MPH.

ljflx · October 2003

As I said you obviously need to feel good about your purchase. I won't even begin to knock an s-class, it's a great car reliability problems and all. Superior to an LS430 - not in my book. They are pretty much equals. The E vs LS - Everyone I know who plays in this league shops the LS vs the S for a very simple reason - size of car. I looked at the E a few years ago and dismissed it immediately because of its size. I honestly never realized how small it was. I wouldn't buy it anymore than I'd buy an ES300 because I could'nt fit my family into it comfortably.

NYbanker - agree - but I've never driven more than 110mph in my life - and when i did that speed it was in a 1995 LS400 which handled it with ease.

syswei · October 2003

Well, since the S430 costs 31% more than the LS430, is 9% slower 0-60, has 5% less HP and 8% less torque, it had better be "superior" in SOME ways to SOME people, else MB would sell zero units.

Hands down, MB wins in sheer prestige. Aesthetics are a personal judgement, and in my personal opinion the S does offer more attractive exterior styling (but not necessarily interior).

As far as "ride" and handling, I will agree that the LS is more oriented toward luxury. But Lexus isn't the slouch you seem to think. Here's a quote from the only available review of the 2004 LS: "...lead some to believe that the LS 430 doesn't handle well when compared with such European benchmarks as the BMW 7 Series or Mercedes-Benz S-Class, but we haven't found that to be the case. The LS 430 can, in fact, be driven hard, whereupon it reveals lots of grip and very good handling." (The full review is at http://www.nctd.com/review-intro.cfm?ReviewID=1432 and the writer, btw, "won the California Rally Series championship in 1993 and was named Rookie of the Year. He went on to win the SCCA Southern Pacific Division Pro Rally championship in 1994" so one might think he knows a bit about cars.)

Yes the S might be better in some things but not all, else why would the LS win plaudits like Automobile Magazine's "best luxury car over $40k" (Feb 2002): "Quite simply, the LS 430 nails the luxury-sedan formula in all the key areas."

For you to state that the S is "so superior to anything Lexus makes that it's not a fair comparison" is your OPINION based on what you find important. It is not an objective statement.

lenscap · October 2003

"I do think, however, that this difference in reliablity is over-rated..."

Hmmm. I would guess that the 2,000 E-Class owners who had to have their cars bought back by Mercedes because of problems would disagree. In fact, these problems have caused Mercedes to publically announce they are scaling back on some innovations.

pathdoc · October 2003

Ever since Lexus came out with their LS400 I have been test driving them before getting a new Mercedes S500. As the problems have increase with the Mercedes and as content has decreased as well as dealer service I have made every attempt to consider a new Lexus. Nevertheless I have yet to be satisfied with the Ls400/430 when compared to the comparable S500. I haven't given up yet and am still hoping for a V-12 and a truely sports tuned Lexus.I have noticed that my local Mercedes dealer is becoming a little more service oriented. Here is a recent article addressing the Lexus driving experience.http://www.autocarmagazine.com/FirstDrive_Summary.asp?- RT_ID=204169

pat · October 2003

Try this - http://www.autocarmagazine.com/FirstDrive_Summary.asp?RT=204169 - I think that was the article you were trying to link here?

syswei · October 2003

"I have yet to be satisfied with the Ls400/430 when compared to the comparable S500"

To each his own as far as what constitutes a satisfying driving experience, and as I've said the LS does tilt more toward luxury.

But your use of the word "comparable" is interesting because there is no comparability when it comes to price: the base S500 goes for 46% more than the base LS430 (2003 MSRPs). If MB sold the S280 in the US, it would list for about the same $55k as the LS430 (based on UK prices of 50,757 euros for the S430, 38,187 for the S280, and US price of $73,320 for the S430).

An S280 would be priced like a LS430...Just how fun would the S280 be to drive???

Hint:

S280 0-62.5 in 9.7 sec (2003)

LS430 0-60 in 6.3 sec (2003), 5.9 sec (2004)

b4z · October 2003

It is my opinion that the S class is probably superior to the LS 400 dynamically.
I think at 9/10s or 10/10s the S class will show it's heels to a Lexus.
98% of you will never drive that way.

I have a particular road that I drive in NC that
tells the tale of how well a car's suspension is sorted out.
A hard left sweeper at the bottom of a hill.
It pushes the supension down as hard as it ever will go.

In my Camaro the back tires rub the inner fenders.
In my Intrigue the inside wheel would squeal.
In the Impala I can get all four ties squealing.
I have driven 2 LS 400s on it and they understeer and feel a tad flabby.
The S class I drove was remarkably composed and level without any bump stop or jounce problems.

Which car would I buy?
The Lexus, because it will provide me with years of reliability.
Maybe the '04 Sport package will make it a contender.

ljflx · October 2003

It is really not fair to compare the S430 or S500 price to the $55.5k base of the LS. In truth an LS430 ultra will list at $71k and is equally equipped as an S430 that would go in the $76-77k range. What makes Lexus different is they don't shove everything down your throat and force you to buy every option the ultra has. You'll never see a $55k LS430 because Lexus, at a minimun, puts the premium package on it which gets you to $58k. From what I've been told you won't see too many cars with just the premium package this year. But you will see a good balance of cars that are priced at $61K (that modern lux package), $66k (custom lux) and $71k (ultra lux). So from a price/options choice perspective you get more choice from Lexus to hold prices down.

pathdoc - I found in 2001 that the LS430 with euro suspension easily outhandled a base S430 or S500. It still road incredibly smooth and quiet and don't ever expect Lexus to move away from there. The 2004 outfitted with that euro suspension is supposed to be the best handling car yet. Automobile mag said on one hand that the euro was better than air suspension and actually handled very well and rode better than either the air or standard suspension. On the other hand they also said the car does things so effortlessly that it reminds them of a first class hotel and makes you forget the road. That has always been the knock on the car so if you want that hard road feel you'll never get it at Lexus. That in turn means Lexus will never win one of those comparos the mags love to put on. that is money in the bank for the next 25 years or so. BMW is the place to go for that and they will win most of those comparos. Those things aren't about the cars they are about the drivers preferences. I'm a ritz carlton type hotel person when I'm not renting condos on vacation and that is exactly what I want then and the Lexus LS430 is the closest thing to the ritz on the road. The 2004, from, what I've read so far delivers what I'm looking for more than ever.

pathdoc · October 2003

I realize that the LS430 is much less expensive than a S500. I guess my point is that if you can afford either and want the best from the point of view of handling,ride and performance I have chosen the Mercedes. The article which I listed came to the same conclusion. I am sure that if soft ride was the number one criteria lexus would probably prevail. I still have an open mind and after driving a new XJR last week may take an entirely different route next year. The new Jag. may be more of a (price) competitive vehicle. The list price is not much more than a loaded LS430.

syswei · October 2003

In maybe 2-3 more years we'll see a hybrid LS, and that sort of powertrain should be like adding 2 more cylinders to the engine...and the engine at the time may be greater than 4.3 liters. And hybrid will give you awd, not to mention better fuel economy. So there is a very good chance that, depending on what MB comes up with, the LS will significantly out-accelerate the S500 of that timeframe...and still be priced way less. But as ljflx suggests, Lexus is still going to give you less road feel than MB.

jamesfletcher2 · October 2003

I have been toying with the idea of purchasing a new S600. I am curious if anyone on this board has owned a current generation S600 and can share their impressions and real-world experiences? Although I am somewhat interested in waiting for the next generation S600 (since the new generation appears to be only 12  18 months away) I am considering the 2004.

pablo_l · October 2003

Several factors are at work there, and they affect *all* car brands.

First of all, the trend is towards *many* people owning luxury brands. It used to be 10 years ago that cars like the Ford Taurus outsold the BMW and Merc models of similar size by 5 to 1 or more, but by 2006 market research indicates the trend will have reversed.

People's car buying habits have changed. Most people only keep their car for 3-5 years, as opposed with the old pride in keeping a quality car going for as long as possible. Thus, 20 year longevity is something that car manufacturers could do, but it simply doesn't pay fr them to do it anymore, because the vast majority of buyers couldn't care less.

Between semi-luxury cars becoming the most popular car segment, and people keeping cars for only a lease period, the priorities in car design have changed. Of course brands like MB have to go with the times, and introduce elements of European fashionista flair to differentitiate - which also automatically means cars will age less gracefully than they used to.

Back in '90, when you saw a 10 year old MB you didn't think twice about it, and thought "hm, nice car". These days, if you see a '93 MB, you go "harrumph, time to replace that, what" - MB has actually been one of the last brands to become part of this movement, they held on to the concept of building to a standard, as opposed to a cost point, for the longest in those segments.

*Everybody* builds cars to a cost point there days. No one blatantly over-engineers. Those are the facts of the car industry in the new millenium, and to single out individual players in this respect is a fallacy.

merc1 · October 2003

lenscap,

Those 2000 03' E-Classes that were bought back because the new DVD-based Nav system couldn't be retro-fitted, not because those 2000 E320s and E500s were lemons. I think they handled the problem in the best way possible.

ljflx,

Why do you insist on comparing the LS430's so-called "Euro" option to the base Mercedes S-Class when Mercedes has a "Sport" package of their own designed to improve handling/braking etc? That isn't a fair comparision. If you compare the Sport versions of each car you'll find that the S is the more capable road car, at least until 04's models are tested.

I still think you're promoting a double standard when it comes to magazines, because one minute their right on the money and they next minute they don't have a clue. BTW, there is no "hard" road feel in a BMW 7-Series or S-Class, they ride smoothly too, difference is you can still tell what the car is doing, unlike the LS430. You're making it sound like the 7-Series rides hard or something and it doesn't. And yes I have driven both the 745i and 760Li, the V12 extensively.

Switching gears here a little. I don't know if you've ever been to one of BMW's Susan G Komen charity events? Its the best way to experience their cars without paying for their other driving programs. I spent the entire afternoon a few weeks ago driving the Z4, 330i, 745i, 760Li and 540i. Man what fun it was! There weren't many people on this particular day (a Friday) so I got to spend some real quality time with the 7-Series, especially the 760Li. What a car, turbine smooth and deceptively fast. The writers are right about I-drive. Get this, even the BMW reps warned not to try and use it while driving. Well being who I am I did so anyway. I honestly couldn't do anything with it more than adjusting the radio and air conditioning, and I'm not afraid of "tech" like a lot of people are, but I feel the need to shake a few BMW engineers for this overcomplication. The best thing I found out, is to simply use the voice command. We've talked about the styling before and its still ugly to me. That trunk lid is just unacceptable. I got to race a guy in the 760Li when I first took the 745i out, the V12 needs lots of space to show it's superiority as we found out it doesn't really start pulling hard until you're really "speeding". Still this is a direct contrast to the previous 740i/750iL relationship because when I drove those two cars the 750iL didn't seem any faster than the 740i, just a lot heavier.

sv7887,

Why all the what if scenarios? Mercedes isn't going to sell at 6-cylinder S-Class here again, so whats the point? At least not until they new direct injection (read: more power) V6's come out, even if they do it then I'll be shocked. Boo20 spoke about solidity not reliability, two very different things. You really hold CR and JDP as the end-all bible reguarding everything concerning the automobile, even things they can't measure...amazing as no one said anything about reliability. BTW, where can I get a LS430 for just over 40K? Since we're using Automobile Magazine...did you see what they said about the 04' LS?

"Lexus continues to portray this car as a competitor to the S-Class and 7-Series, but the LS430 actually follows the same archly conservative formula that once made Cadillac and Lincoln the big dogs in this class. The LS430 is still the best car in the world to own. However the luxury here is simply that you never think about driving the LS430. This is the ultimate in consumer goods, not the ultimate in luxury goods."

Wow, exactly what European car fans have been saying all along. The LS is the worlds greatest appliance, reliable, but boring and totally uninspiring, with nothing for a "driver" to appreciate. I guess they're wrong about this right?

M

ljflx · October 2003

Why? It's simple - the cost of the euro is $0! So if you want the sportier handling you can have it for less than a penny. That is why I compare it.

As for magazines - I said for a long time now - the singular car stories are worth it and provide valuable info - at times. The comparos are worthless because mag drivers have their favorite brands and find it hard to choose against them (most favor BMW until Porsche or some higher performance brand comes in - thus I can safely predict the results of comparo tests for the next 25 years even though such cars are not yet made. Do you have any doubt of who will win if the 2025 LS is compared with the 2025 7 series - care to make a wager? I'll take the 7.) and mag drivers come in heavily biased toward handling and performance and not the balance of a car that a high majority of the buying public is looking for. They also don't care about price or reliability. Plus they think customer satisfaction is 90% determined by how a car handles a sharp turn or drives at 100mph+. If they were right the manufacturers would make nothing but performance cars. It's obvious from the handful of performance cars out there that they are wrong.

boo20 · October 2003

By the way if I wanted a decent looking car that was reliable I would choose Acura over Lexus any day of the week. Nearly as reliable and their cars look like their designers really care about the looks of the vehicle.

ljflx · October 2003

I went from Acura (great cars, great reliability) to Lexus. Reasons - Lexi are made better, ride better, ownership experience is better and customer service is untouchable). No way do I go back to Acura unless financial concerns cause me to or they match Lexus standards.

carnaught · October 2003

Like ljflx I too owned Acura before Lexus, two of the former to be exact. Unless their styling improves considerably, even though they are a relative value, no way I'd go back to one or take one over the Lexus. I do not think the upscale Honda even belongs on this board.

ljflx · October 2003

And you both the e and the LS if I remember correctly. Lex and MB are at the top for me. Acura is great but they are not in this league.

carnaught · October 2003

10-4 good buddy.

ljflx · October 2003

Did you ever go to that MB event that was a $750 fee or something like that?

By the way that I-drive had disaster written all over it before the car ever made it to the showroom.

b4z · October 2003

Acuras are FWD. Can't handle high hp (Acura TL trans woes are legendary).
LS400 is superior to any Acura built at this time.

i_drive · October 2003

hello-
my wife has a Lexus GX470, and I have a '02 S430, and a '03 SL55 AMG. we love our cars, but my wife wants an S-Class too. i tried to convince her to get a BMW or Audi, but she's stuck to the S430. she loves the S-Class.

i am thinking about surprising her on her birthday (comming soon in mid-November); having the car out on the driveway. alas; she loves good deals, and won't be happy if i tell her how much i actually paid for it. so, i am wondering if any of you who have car-shopped for an S-Class, (OR BMW 745i) found a REALLY good price if i lease? I live in San Diego, California. this morning, i found an ad in the newspaper from Hoehn Motors: 2003 NEW Mercedes S430. $899/month, $4,671 due at lease signing. nicely equiped (does that mean it's stripped?). 5 to choose from. Hohen Motors, Car Country Carlsbad.

i don't know if that's a good deal.
if any of you live in S. California and know of a really good deal on a new '03 S430, please tell.
thanks alot!

boo20 · October 2003

bz4: in my mind the presence of front wheel drive on the Acura is an argument FOR and not against it compared to the Lexus. As I want AWD in my winter car the Lexus is out (even if liked everything else about it--which I don't). The Acura is at least a reasonable second choice by virtue of its FWD, aesthetics and overall value for the money. If I couldn't afford an MB I would definately go with Acura rather than Lexus. When we are talking about cars costing over 60 K value isn't really in the equation at all. Nobody buys an LS430 or S class because of "value". They are just not "worth" it on an incremental cost basis. If you can comfortably afford these cars then cost should be considered essentially to be a 'burnt offering.'

i_drive: I'm in the market for an '04 S class. Unfortunately there are plenty of unsold '03s laying around in dealer inventories (here in the midwest) including AWD models. Dealers are anxious to move these out before the '04s come out at the end of October so I'm certain you can get a great deal on them in the next few weeks. I saw an S430 with MSRP of 78 K on which you could probably have picked up at least a 5 K discount. That's a pretty good deal on this incredible car. Go for it.

Unfortunately for me this probably means no deals off list price for the '04s. Maybe I'll go for one of the leftover 03s myself.

b4z · October 2003

I forget about you guys who live in the snowbelt.
Here in SC, the only advantage to FWD is extra interior space.
AWD and four wheel drive are just things that decrease gas mileage and hurt ride quality.

syswei · October 2003

You said "When we are talking about cars costing over 60 K value isn't really in the equation at all." Well, this might be true for SOME buyers, but I hardly believe that its true for all buyers in that price range. If an extra 10-20-30k doesn't matter to someone who has already decided to purchase a 60k+ car, why does MB sell any S430s at all?...why don't all the S buyers get the S500 (or higher)? Why does BMW sell alot of 745s? Why don't all the BMW buyers get the 760?

syswei · October 2003

You said that ljflx's comparing an LS430's "euro" option to the base Mercedes S "isn't a fair comparision"...even though, as he pointed out, the "euro" is FREE to any LS buyer who cares for it.

Well, if you are into "fair" comparisons, can you see that fairness is why I brought up the S280? Someone was trying to compare performance of the S500 to the LS430, and my point is that its unfair to compare the LS performance to a car that costs 46% more. It isn't even that fair to compare the LS to the S430, since the S430 costs 31% more (though the LS nonetheless beats at 0-60 and in HP and torque). I was saying that if MB sold the S280 in the US, it might (based on UK price differentials between the S430 and S280) cost the same as the LS430. And THAT would be a "fair comparison" (to use your words).

syswei · October 2003

You asked "where can I get a LS430 for just over 40K". I don't know either. Maybe you should read posts more carefully if you are going to reply to them, because I never suggested anything less than 55K for an LS.

syswei · October 2003

They named the BMW 7-series "2003 All-Star Luxury Car Over $40,000". In 2002 it was the LS430. In 2001 it was the LS 430.

There are probably some MB fans who are thinking, "if they didn't pick the S, Automobile Magazine's criteria must be flawed". Hardly. It just means that their criteria are DIFFERENT from yours, not necessarily "right" or "wrong".

I have always said that Lexus tilts toward luxury over sport. ljflx has said that in his opinion, the LS with euro suspension "easily outhandles" the base S. But we also know that Lexus doesn't do anything like the S55 or S600. So I think is fair to say the the LS (base) starts more on the luxury side of the spectrum and MB (S55) can be had more on the sport side, and that there might be some overlap in the middle (LS euro vs S base).

If an individual buyer's definition of the ideal car is tilted more toward luxury and less toward sport, he can get an LS non-euro and it can be "best" FOR HIM. If his definition of the ideal car is more sporty, he can get an MB sport edition or S55 or BMW or whatever, and it can be "best" FOR HIM. Trying to espouse that either the S or LS is objectively better for EVERYONE is just plain silly.

bluestar1 · October 2003

"If an individual buyer's definition of the ideal car is tilted more toward luxury and less toward sport, he can get an LS non-euro and it can be "best" FOR HIM. If his definition of the ideal car is more sporty, he can get an MB sport edition or S55 or BMW or whatever, and it can be "best" FOR HIM. Trying to espouse that either the S or LS is objectively better for EVERYONE is just plain silly."

syswei: very well put indeed !

At the very least, your point here avoids the subjective considerations of looks and aestethics that are often touted here when doing LS_vs_S_vs_7 comparos. I certainly don't see anyone arguing against this position that syswei articulated (eloquently, imo) above here.

sv7887 · October 2003

Merc,
I don't remember talking about 6 Cylinder MB cars..What I did take issue with is comparing a LS430 to an E Class. I'll leave that argument alone for the moment.

The hyperbole on the part of the MB enthusiasts on this board is amazing. "Lexus is no comparison for the S class" Really? If the LS was SOO inferior then no one would buy one! What you MB guys keep missing is that that None of these cars are made for heavy performance driving. The average buyer of a LS is a 57 yr old Executive making $125K + a year. (Source Lexus Website) We're hardly the Indy Car Racing Group. None of these cars whether it be a LS, or S class can beat the true Performance Lux cars out there, such as the M5 or XJR.

As of yet, all this bashing about the Lexus lacking a "Solid" ride is purely Subjective. I always have pointed to Objective stats to point out that Lexus is at parity in nearly all areas.
The only thing MB loyalists can complain about is the overly Smooth ride (Is that a bad thing?) and bland design. Basically, it's Snobbery. You guys are like the Old Gentlemen's Club thumbing your nose at the younger generation.

I paid $67K for my LS430, and $51k back in 1992, for my 92 LS400..If I really wanted a S class, like any LS owner, I could afford one. Like my fellow LS owners out there, we've gladly taken the $10k + we've saved and laughed to the bank!

We've gotten a car that more reliable than anything on the road. Oh! you Benz loyalists moan, "The LS430 is SO unoriginal will get SMOKED by the S Class" The LS has a potent V-8 and drivetrain that will keep at or near parity with it's competitors. As for Originality, look at the newest Lexus designs. I'd say they are pretty original. Keep in Mind Lexus is only a 13 yr old company. You'd ought to give them credit for completely shaking up the Lux car industry. Now that Toyota has given Lexus their own identity in Japan, we ought to see them carve ought their identity in the coming years. As for now, I think I'll take my $10K and superior ownership experience thank you very much.

With Lexus you get superb customer service and one hell of a car..These performance characteristics mean nothing on the Real road. What % of MB, BMW, or Lexus owner race their cars? I'd say the majority of them are primarily commuter cars, and are seldom raced. Who wants to debate that?

Cheers,
SV

boo20 · October 2003

There are many things you said that I disagree with but let me focus on just one point you made that is easily refuted. Consider your contention that "You guys are like the Old Gentlemen's Club thumbing your nose at the younger generation."

Very interesting. Let's look at the demographics of the average LS vs S class buyer (source is MS Carpoint): The average age of an LS430 buyer is 64. The average age of an S class buyer is 58. So it seems to me that it is the older Lexus owners who are thumbing their noses at the younger MB buyers. Now I wouldn't make a big deal out of this and claim that this means anything other than refuting your contention that buying an MB as opposed to buying a Lexus is a manifestation of an older demographic.

Also you said: "I paid $67K for my LS430, and $51k back in 1992, for my 92 LS400..If I really wanted a S class, like any LS owner, I could afford one. Like my fellow LS owners out there, we've gladly taken the $10k + we've saved and laughed to the bank!"

I'm sure you could afford either one. However, once again, lets look at the demograhics here (again, MS Carpoint is the source): The average yearly income of an LS buyer is 186,000. The average yearly income of an S class buyer is 284,000. At 90 K an S class is 50% of a typical Lexus buyers yearly income. I'm sure that many people in this group have settled for the Lexus because they couldn't afford the more expensive MB. Another way to look at it is that, although if you can afford an S class you can afford an LS, the opposite is not necessarily true.

b4z · October 2003

What is the average and median age of the LS and S class buyer?

boo20 · October 2003

bz4: unless I missed it somewhere MS Carpoint does not tabulate both of these but simply states "age". So technically I'm not sure if this is mean (as I assumed) or median age.

I should also add that Lexus' styling and marketing stategy makes more sense now that we understand the demographics of the luxury car buyer: Lexus is trying to appeal to an older, less affluent, group. Nothing wrong with that. It's just different than the average MB buyer. This appeal to an older buyer is probably why Lexus styling is so consistently more "conservative" and less exciting and innovative, if you will, than that of MB.

To elaborate on my point about income and affordability consider the following: If Lexus raised the price of the LS430 to the level of the S class would they sell more or fewer cars than they do now? What do you think? My guess is FEWER because they have now priced their "average" buyer out of the market. This makes the success of cars (which some percieve to have "lessor value") such as the S class all the more amazing.

sv7887 · October 2003

You've misinterpreted what I said. MB as a car company is the Old Gentlemen's Club. I wasn't referring to the age of the owners. Lexus as portrayed is the young upstart. I was in fact referring to the Snobbery of the MB community.

You're taking the highest price of an S500 at $90K. I don't know what % of S class sales are 90K S500's (Merc do you know?) but my point was, anyone paying 65K+ for a LS can afford an S class MB (Perhaps a S430 or lower End S500)

The LS debuted at $35K in 1990. I distinctly remember a MB VP complaining on PBS that Toyota was selling them for a $10K loss as they thought it cost $45K to build. By the time I bought mine it was $51K. (All taxes included) You'd think people might have been discouraged, as Lexus as a brand name was still very vulnerable at that point. But the rising prices didn't deter anyone.
Reason? The original LS was better than the competition in the early 1990's. People paid the price, b/c it still was a bargain relatively.

A purely speculative point on my part..

How many Lux car buyers pay cash for their cars? (Open question to the board) I can imagine many leasing, or simply financing these days. Old timers like me prefer to pay cash, but I don't think this is universally true anymore. The Lexus dealer always points out to me in negotiation that they make more money on Leases and financing, than straight out cash transactions like mine.

Essentially the post was hitting at this point. Criticisms of Feel and design are purely Subjective. 0-60 times, Indycar handling, feel of Suspension have very little relevance to Real World driving. I sincerely doubt the majority of Lux owners race their cars where these specs might make a difference. I rarely can even hit 90+ on Massachusetts roads. These statistics are essentially Marketing fodder for the Auto equivalent of Pilot's Bull Sessions.

The points of Unparalled reliablity and superior customer service ARE applicable to the Real World. I don't have time to waste waiting for a service to be completed or having to deal with irritating defects/glitches.

A real world example:
Ever since my 92 LS was damaged in the accident, my Lexus dealer has provided me with a Loaner and is taking care of everything..(Insurance providing OEM parts, Body Shop hassles, and ensuring everything is done to my satisifaction). They are even going to drop off the car at my convenience fully detailed. A major headache has been reduced to a minor annoyance. That's called service.

I'm surprised that the MB loyalists fail to see the draw of Lexus. Lexus appeals to the affluent driver seeking a No Hassle experience. For the money I've spent on 3 LS cars in 11 yrs I've got a completely hassle free experience. The US workforce boasts the highest productivity rate in the whole world, so it's no wonder many affluent buyers opt for Lexus.

I invite my Fellow LS owners to chime in on this. Do you agree with my perspective? Also, Why did you buy your LS?

Cheers,
SV

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