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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    For what it's worth (not much), here's my take on the S-class vs. LS debate.

    The Lexus is clearly the leader in reliability and dependability. How much that is important to you in a luxury sedan is a personal decision, but I know of many MB loyalists who are less and less enthusiased with what they perceive is the decline in the marquee over the past few years.

    Unless you step up to the S55, the performance difference and driving dynamics are only slightly in favor of the S class, IMO. I agree with sv7887, neither are designed with the enthusiast in mind.

    The LS430 probably isn't going to steal sales from the S-class among those who find the S the standard of projecting personal success. Take that for better or worse.

    I briefly considered the S55 18 months ago, but ended up with an M5. I don't need the extra room of the S class and prefer a crisper handling car. But I never thought I'd end up with a substantially more reliable car to boot. Total number of unscheduled maintenance trips in 18 months: 1 for a check engine light that came on by mistake the 1st week I owned the car. None in 32k miles since.

    So, is the S class worth the premium over the LS430? Perhaps to some. But to others, the LS430 is a heck of a good car that is unlikely to frustrate you with more trips to the dealer than you really want to make.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The average age of an LS430 buyer is 64 years old?? Lexus is aiming at an older less affluent crowd?? Where do you get your information from? Perhaps from MB execs that want the rest of the world to think that. Lexus aim is dead on MB and has been for 12+ yeasr now. They are jabbing a bit at BMW with the IS and GS but that is a sideshow to the main event. Maybe on the next go round they will make the GS go after the E which is what it should have done in the first place. As for the LS430 they are targeting the exact same demograpics that MB is shopping for. Now please lets stop kidding ourselves. People making $125k can't so easily afford an LS430. The crowd buying the car is for the most part a $200-250k and up crowd - same as an S-class.

    I thought I remember reading last year that the average age of all car buyers for BMW was 49, MB was 53 and Lexus was 54.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    Sedan sales stats for the US market as of July 2003 can be found in the URL below:

    http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

    IMO, it is a waste of time trying to argue which is better. These are all fine cars. More importantly, no mind will be changed in the debate. Just enjoy your LS's and be happy.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    >> These are all fine cars. More importantly, no mind will be changed in the debate. <<

    YES!!!

    :-)
  • boo20boo20 Member Posts: 85
    You state "The average age of an LS430 buyer is 64 years old?? Lexus is aiming at an older less affluent crowd?? Where do you get your information from?"

    Where did I get my information from? Go back and read my post #2974 where I give my source as Microsoft Carpoint not MB executives.

    Also you state "People making $125k can't so easily afford an LS430. " Read that post again. I didn't say that they made 125 K. I said that they made 186 K. That would make the Lexus less than 1/3 of their yearly income. My source for this contention (once again) was MS Carpoint.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It still doesn't make a difference if the LS430's "Euro" option doesn't cost anything because the S430 or S500 is still going to cost more anyway, so whats the difference? You're not comparing cars of equal specification. Thats like me saying the E500 Sport outhandles the regular LS430, that simply isn't a fair comparision.

    I really think you're making to broad of a statement when it comes to the press. They do care about price. Haven't you noticed where a Mercedes gets knocked for costing too much more than it's competion. If not check out the comparo in Road and Track (I think two months ago) in which the SL500 came in forth, behind a Cadillac, Jaguar and a Porsche...due to price. Clearly the car would have ranked much higher if weren't for it's 98K price, the number tally confirms this, as the only place the SL really got dinged was in the value equation. They even stated that the SL500 was probably the best all-arounder and best car for everyday, in the test. You seem to equate a comparison test with only being a track meet, and that simply isn't so. How can they talk about reliability when they only have the cars for a few days, or a week? In order for them to include that into their deliberations they'd have to keep all 5 cars for a months and months. Not feasible. Their tests are to gauge a cars abilities, and yes they do drive the cars out in the real world. It just appears by the posts in this thread that when they slam an Audi A8 they're so right, but when a Lexus gets knocked for not being anything special to drive they don't know what they're talking about, or at least they aren't being through enough. Thats a double standard. The best example of this is the SC430 vs the segment.

    Yes I'll wager about the 7-Series, because I'll be shocked if such a overcomplicated car wins any of the inevitable comparisions between the new LS, S, A8, and XJ. We should start seeing these next month, I'd say. Seriously, I'd be shocked if it does win, the car is a ergonomic mess. If they put it over simply because it handles better your point will be made, at least with that publication.

    Also, check out some of the British mags take on the 7-Series. (I don't know if anyone here reads magazines like CAR, Topcar or EVO, but I think anyone that doesn't is missing the best automotive writing to be read today.) Anyway, I don't think I've seen the 7-Series win yet in one of their tests, its either the S-Class, XJ or A8 that come out on top, most of the time. Now I already see the A8 loosing over here, at least in a C&D comparo since they've pretty much said that they don't care much for the car because of it's ride. MT has a comparo of the XJ8 and the A8L in their Nov issue, btw.

    I disagree with you on the demographic between the S and LS. They are not the same. Their has to be a difference between the average LS (55-60K) sold and the average S-Class (73-85K) sold. There is no way this is the same exact group of people. A lot of people that like the LS430 are stepping up from GS and RX models and the S-Class is hardly ever mentioned due to it's starting price. I realize you can "take" a loaded S500 later this morning if you choose, but from what I've seen that isn't the case with *most* LS430 buyers.

    No I didn't get to attend the AMG event, it was sold out. There is always next year huh?

    syswei,

    You're talking about a car that isn't sold here for one, the S280. Next up, who is doing all the comparing between the LS430 and the S500, Lexus is. Lexus is the one billing the LS430 as the S-Class competitor so the imaginary comparison with a S280 is really pointless.

    It's not Mercedes' fault that Lexus tries to cover two different segments with the LS430, which by the way is a wise strategy in most respects. None of the full size luxury cars are the same in price as the LS430, not the A8, 7 or S. Only the base XJ8 is in the same ballpark.

    My point about the Automobile Magazine award is that the price cutoff it way too low because you can't get a S-Class, 7-Series or LS430 for anywhere near 40K.

    "There are probably some MB fans who are thinking, "if they didn't pick the S, Automobile
     Magazine's criteria must be flawed"

    Not hardly, I'd suggest you read back to their 2000 issue in which they picked the S-Class for that very same award. Didn't say their criteria is wrong, just that the price cutoff is misleading.

    sv7887,

    Now I've said a lot of things, but I don't recall ever saying that the LS is no competition for the S-Class, that must be an actual owner saying that. Lets just say that if you think the LS' design is "original" I'll just cut this short by saying that I completely disagree with that. I don't see anyone complaining about the LS430 having an "overly smooth" ride. What I do see people complaining about is the control of the body and the handles that results from that compared to a German car. Who is going to complain about a smooth ride if the handling is up to snuff, that doesn't make sense. You're saying that suspension feel doesn't matter? You're kidding right? That is what makes a car "drive" the way it does. German cars have this in spades, hence their following. Nobody is saying that any of these cars have "Indycar" handling. You're blowing it out of proportion. If feel didn't matter then Lexus owners wouldn't harp about how smoothly their cars ride. In all these cars, from Audi to Mercedes to Cadillac and Infinfi, "feel" is what people look for in their first test drive. The ideal ride/handling mix is what will be debated forever, I personally just like Mercedes' take on the question. Just like Jaguar, Audi, BMW and Cadillac have their own definition of this.

    Styling and design are personal things and it's easy for a Lexus owner to dismiss these as a grip because that is what the car is least good at. Just like MB fans don't see surveys as being the bible.

    I'm not sure what the ratio is between the S430 and the S500, since 2002. Now before that, especially upon it's debut in spring of 1999, they sold almost equally. I do know that the previous S500 outsold the S420 by a pretty good margin from 1992-1999.

    M
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    You wrote: "Styling and design are personal things and it's easy for a Lexus owner to dismiss these as a grip because that is what the car is least good at. Just like MB fans don't see surveys as being the bible"

    I disagree !

    One (looks and styling) is subjective (personal opinion); the other (surveys) is objective (many opinions)

    Think about how developed countries conduct business, politics, policies, etc. Many decisions are based on formal and informal surveys. For example, there is incontrovertible evidence that smoking leads to lung cancer ! How do we know ? Bcos a vast amount of data and records (statistical surveys) exist that show a correlation of long years of smoking to emphysema (?) and other lung diseases. That you and other Merc fans choose not to accept surveys that cast your brand in a weak position is only ignoring the obvious. OTOH, DCX is quite concerned about its current lack-lustre reliability issues with 300+ repairs per 100 cars over 3 years (2000-date). That ain't something to be proud of especially if you are behind the likes of Ford in this area. Yikes!
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Merc,
      I wasn't accusing you of saying a LS was no match for the S class. That accusation was meant for someone else. :) I haven't said anywhere that the LS design is original. However, I did say the newest Lexus designs seem to be. I'm using examples of the RX330, ES, and GX. The pictures of the new GS seem to corroborate my point.

    "What I do see people complaining about is the control of the body and the handles that results from that compared to a German car. Who is going to complain about a smooth ride if the handling is up to snuff, that doesn't make sense. You're saying that suspension feel doesn't matter? You're kidding right? That is what makes a car "drive" the way it does. German cars have this in spades, hence their following."

    Question is, do LS owners complain about this? Using your argument, it can be said that the LS followers in fact DO like their smooth rides. I think it's the German followers who have a problem with it, not the LS owners.

    I'm not a suspension expert, but I'm going to guess that you probably sacrifice the smoothness of a ride when you go for sharper handling. (Correct me if I'm wrong) You make it sound like the LS handles like the 747 while the German cars handle like a F-22. Having driven both cars, the difference is perceptive, but not especially drastic. I really think this whole Handling issue is greatly blown out of proportion. I've said this repeatedly, those seeking a superb performance car would probably opt for a M5 or XJR. Also, unless you plan on racing these cars, it's just a pointless argument.

    As for Demographics..The avg price of a LS isn't 55-60K. Even the typical base model is $58K. The common midrange one will cost around $65-67K. (I'm sure these prices have changed somewhat since I bought mine in '02). At $67K it's not that big of a step to an S430. Those paying $73K probably can step up to the base S500. That's all that I was trying to accomplish.

    I preach about JDP and CU assessment b/c they consider the practical aspects of owing the car. I've always found that the testing criteria of Car and Driver and others to be unrealistic. Like I'm really going to take corners at 100+ MPH..

    Does anyone know what percentage of these cars are leased and financed?

    SV
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Lexus is going to be first to market among luxury companies, and here is a bit about the performance benefits: "...several Formula One teams had started to build cars around the hybrid approach. Before the cars could ever reach the track, though, FIA, the Formula One governing body banned this solution...the teams with hybrid engines would have had acceleration capabilities that would have put hybrid cars way out in front." The quote is from http://en.lexus-hybrid.com/home.html
  • pathdocpathdoc Member Posts: 126
    The latest issue of Consumer Reports(Nov. 03) has a comparison of 5 luxury sedans(Audi A8L,BMW 745Li,Jaguar XJ8,Lexus430 and Mercedes S430). Although I don't consider CR's auto reviews too relevant for auto enthusiasts I do read some of them out of interest and like to see their ratings on reliabilty.
     They rate the Lexus # 1 with the Mercedes a close 2nd. BMW is last. What is more interesting is their comments on the highs and lows of each.
    The Lexus gets high marks for "ride,quietness,powertrain refinement,fit and finish,reliability,turning circle and ergonomics" and lows in "agility" with a comment that "body lean in corners is pronounced,steering lacks feedback and while the car was secure in our emergency-handling tests it didn't shine." I would say that these are the negatives I have found when test driving the car in the past. If the Euro tuned suspension makes as large a difference as posters on this board have indicated I will try one with an open mind.
     The Mercedes highs were "ride,handling,quietness,rear seat" and lows were "reliability and cup holders". CR would not recommend the Mercedes because the predicted reliabilty was poor (solid black circle). I think this last issue is crucial for Mercedes to address and will be the determining point for me for future Mercedes purchases.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I would not take those Carpoint statistics as facts. Interesting, but in such things one always has to wonder how statistically significant the group in question is. And when the differences are in the 10% range, my assumptions is that there's hardly any relevant differences all in all.

    Someone asked about finance vs cash - I think here in Silicon Valley I am the last of the dying breed of people who buy cars cash. I only know *one* other friend who did - he got a BMW 330Ci, even though he could easily wing a new Bentley Continental. Moderation seems to be "in" for cash buyers these days. :-)

    Since we are trying to categorize, me and my friends are very much into watches, and one is a very successful Jaguar sales associate, whi has the following theory: for te most part, Lexus owners don't give a hoot about good watches, MB owners are brand conscious but have a high percentage of quartz owners, and Jag owners tend to be mechanical watch people. True watch afficionados tend to also be collectible car fans. Just advanced the theory for what it's worth and as an entertaining side note. Note: I do collect mechanical watches. Buying a good watch every 1-2 years is one of my old traditions. :-)
  • boo20boo20 Member Posts: 85
    I think that the demographic differences between MB and Lexus buyers are substantial. I also beleive that Lexus styling is deliberately conservative because they are essentially going after the Cadillac crowd. This does not bode well for the future of Lexus. Seeing these 80 year old guys puffing on cigars driving their Lexus--how many more years have they got? Will they still be driving in a few years to purchase another one? Cadillac was worried enough about the demographics of their buyers to do something about it. Will Lexus follow suit before it's too late?

    With few exceptions, and contrary to what the Lexus enthusiasts seem to think is fair and proper, MB cars are sold out. You can't get an SL, CL class without an 18 month wait or sold used above MSRP. Look at the E class board where the '04s are sold out through March of next year before they have even hit dealer showrooms. The S class will not sell as briskly but still does well considering that it is in its last year of this production cycle with a new model coming out in '05.

    Lexus should be so fortunate as to have these "problems."
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh, ok I didn't think I said THAT about the LS430...lol. I generally despise SUV/Trucks so I don't have much of an opinion on them. I personally wouldn't even mention the ES, as it's one of the most "what the hell" cars on the road, imo. We'll have to see what the next GS actually looks like.

    Now with these surveys. There is a reason why European car owners/fans don't see them as the bible. Right here on Edmunds I can read about Acura TLs having one transmission problem after another. Also on here I can find more than a few people complaining about the ES300's transmission. What I really want somone to answer is how BMW managed to place 5th(?) in one these surveys, when the 7-Series by all accounts was the most bug ridden car of the year. None of this is reflected in these precious surveys. Why is that? But yet I can read on how Mercedes' have brake dust problems, how Minis have a bad ride and how a Hummer has bad gas mileage. My point is that these surveys are not conclusive to a point to assume that Mercedes' are breaking down at the side of the road. There is a lot of detail missing, especially with JDP data. There is no way I'm going to blindly accept these as gospel ever, because they simply don't tell the whole story. Yes, a Lexus is more reliable than a BMW or Mercedes, but how much so is the questionable part.

    sv7887

    You're still missing the point about the handling of these two cars. Nobody is trying to make it seem like what you're saying when comparing a 747 to a F-22. Where has anyone said that the difference is that drastic? I don't know how else to explain to you. If you can find me one road test comparison of luxury sedans in a U.S. magazine that actually said one car was better than another simply because it could take a curve at a 100 mph better than the next car, I'll eat that issue. That simply is an exagerration of whats been said here.

    Demographics. Ok so the average LS430 leaves out the door for 58K or even 68K, thats still about a 15K difference between it and a S500, there is no way everyone going for the Lexus can afford the S500. My point is here is that there is a different demographic for the S and LS, they aren't nearly the same, the only place where they would be is in the case of the S430.

    pathdoc,

    They actually knocked the S430 for it's predicted reliability, of which they don't know squat about yet due to the car being facelifted for 03', and for it's cupholders. How ridiculous.

    Can any Lexus fan tell me why I'm reading in here that an Acura is a "upscale Honda" and a Lexus isn't an upscale Toyota?

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    There were about 35 SL's here in NJ listed for sale at ray catena each of the past two sundays. I don't know of any business that advertises anything that has already been sold. These waits are always badly overstated and disappear long beforehand.

    I saw that demo on Lexus in microsoft car point and found out that it is from a census they take. I've bought Lexus vehicles since 95 and now that I think about it I've never been asked nor have i ever provided them my age. They did ask for a bracket of what age group I'm in though - if that counts.

    I looked at some of the reviews at carpoint and the inconsistency is something. They say the 7 loses value quickly and the S and LS don't but then they rate the 7 as a higher percentage (70-60 if I remember right in the scoring to the other two). They praise the LS' interior quiet and jump on MB a bit for not being as quiet then score them the same way. I don't think there is any bias there (the scoring was unfair to all three cars in different instances), just a general inconsistency (the two I gave are just references - there are plenty more amongst the three cars) and when i see that I don't take the data seriously as no one is checking what is printed. I mean if I catch such mistakes with a 5 minute (if that) review than its obvious no one is edit checking them for a living.

    So let's see - now we are up to 80 yrears old. Within a day or two we should crack the century mark. Your predjudice against Lexus is beyond reproach and I will no longer respond to it.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    This must be an awfully large dealer to have 35 new SLs in stock. Thats just about unbelievable or incorrect "data" that nobody at the dealership has updated.

    M
  • boo20boo20 Member Posts: 85
    These are used SLs. No dealer has 35 NEW SLs in stock. Most have none. The ones that have 2003s in stock have been sold and bought back by the dealer and sold at, or above MSRP. Look at Ray Catena's website: http://www.catena.mercedescenter.com/mbcenter/b/index.jhtml. You can do a search and come up with five 2003 SLs. One has 15,000 miles and is still selling for (approx) MSRP. I know that this is a concept that is hard for non-MB enthusiasts to comprehend but let me explain to you how it works: Dealers sell these cars based upon a priority list (generally you have to get on it about 18 months in advance). They are driven a few thousand miles and then sold back to the dealer at or near MSRP. The dealer is then no longer constrained by MBUSA as to what they can charge for these cars and they go to the highest bidder. MB does not allow dealers to sell NEW cars above MSRP but they have no control over the used car market.

    The rare NEW SL you will see at dealers is typically an SL55 which goes for 130 big ones. The market for these cars is small, almost as small as Ferrari.

    The marketplace has basically spoken. I have never seen used Lexus vehicles go for MSRP. I have never heard of an 18 month waiting list for a Lexus.

    On another point my comment about 80 year olds drving Lexi was clearly hyperbole and intended as a joke. Clearly, however, the demographics of a Lexus buyer is different than an MB: he's older and less affluent. There's nothing wrong with that but it helps to explain Lexus' marketing strategy. I think Lexus' main competitor is Cadillac and not Mercedes. <JOKE>Who else would want to drive a car that looks like a coffin (and when your time comes you don't even have to get out of the car! ;) )</JOKE>

    Incidentally, studies have shown that people spend about 4 months gross salary on a new car. With this perspective Carpoints stats are right on target (which makes me believe their demographic data is accurate): So for an average yearly income of 186 K Lexus buyers purchase a 60 K car (4 months income). At an average income of 286 K MB (S 500) buyers pay about 90 K (again 4 months income).
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I caught the tail end of a commercial about MB's lane change warning system (sounding a warning tone if the driver drifts out of lane)...is this something new for 2004 or is it more a statement of direction? Anyway, a welcome innovation that I hope Lexus "copies" heh, heh.

    I think it would be nice if someone made a blind-spot checking system to warn of potential collisions when a driver intentionally changes lanes.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Merc1, you mention tranmission problems of the TL and ES, and ask say "none of this is reflected in these precious surveys". I think you're wrong there. Acura and Lexus are not reported by JDP to have zero or anywhere near zero defects per 100 cars (and if they were reported as such it would make the survey suspect indeed). They do have lower defects per 100 than many other manufacturers, including MB. The detail data are available to the auto manufacturers...for a big price tag. The reason you do hear of some detail data (like the Hummer stuff) is that when the press reports on JDP, they will mention a few items that contributed to the poor ratings for manufacturers that didn't fare so well in the surveys. They don't happen to mention the items that the more reliable brands had problems with. It doesn't mean, as you can tell from the aggregate problems per 100 data, that Lexus or Acura have zero problems. Nor does it mean that the surveys fail to catch the problems that show up in Lexus or Acura cars.

    As for the 7 placing fifth in a survey, I didn't happen to see this. But it may have been a JDP survey that doesn't measure quality. There is one such, I can't remember what it's called.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I guess I fail to see the importance of the average income level of LS and S buyers. To me it is perfectly logical that a car that has a lower average price point is going to have a lower buyer's average income.

    Does that, in itself, show that it is a worse car or something?

    SL buyers probably have lower average incomes than Ferrari buyers, does that mean that the SL is a worse car for the money?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    One more thing about JDP. To my knowledge no car company has ever sued JDP over faulty methodology. Unlike CR, which I think got sued by Isuzu (Trooper rollover test) and maybe others that I don't recall (Audi?).
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    from JDP:

    "While Japanese-branded vehicles continue to dominate in terms of long-term vehicle quality, the Europeans have lost their edge over the U.S. domestic-branded vehicles...

    The 2003 study, which measures problems reported by original owners of 2000 model-year vehicles at three years of ownership, finds that although there is near parity between U.S. Domestics and Europeans in terms of initial quality, substantial quality gaps appear between the Domestics and the Europeans in long-term durability. On average, models by domestic automakers outperform the Europeans by 49 problems per 100 (PP100) vehicles at three years of ownership.

    "Conventional wisdom said that dependability was the property of the Japanese and Europeans," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates. "While that&#146;s still true for automakers like Toyota and Honda, it&#146;s no longer the case for many of the Europeans. Porsche, Jaguar, Saab and BMW perform well above the industry average in dependability, but many other European brands are bought based on a reputation for long-term quality and fall far short of even the average. This is in stark contrast to the results of the first VDS, conducted in 1990, when Mercedes-Benz led the industry.""

    To see the full press release, go to http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/releases/index.asp?catid=1 and click on Acura, and then click on the blue icon in the upper right of the grid (i.e., 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study / Press Release).

    Personally I had no idea that MB fared so well back in 1990 (they are well below average now). If they can get back to number 1 status, I'll certainly consider them very seriously for my next purchase.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    The last car I would buy as a sedan replacement is an S-class, LS or 7-series. My space needs and driving preferences would have me spend $75k on an M5 (or even E55) before any of the above.

    That said, the demographic generalizations being made above suggesting an older, less afluent Lexus buyer don't hold true within my circles. Examples: A 45 year old business school classmate of mine sold his company in March, 2001 and personally cleared $440 million. Drives: LS430. A 65 year old real estate executive with 6,000 apartment portfolio - S430; his 41 year old son, S500. I could go on.

    My former classmate with the LS430 also has a 911 Turbo in the garage which is his "fun to drive" car. His opinion, the LS430 is 90%+ the luxury auto of the S500, with 0% of the maintenance headaches and hassles. He values his time very highly and if he's going to have hassles, it will be over a sports car like the 911 rather than his daily driver luxury sedan. In spite of his success, he has no apparant ego need to flaunt it.

    In my circles, the number of people who buy an LS430 (or Q45) because they can't afford an S500 is less than the number who have drifted away from the Mercedes brand over quality control and reliability issues over the past few years. I'm glad I don't need the size of the S or LS or Q. I'm not sure what I would do.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Thanks for your anecdotes, and welcome to the board! It is certainly true that some LS buyers made their choice despite the car's value pricing, not because of it. Bill Gates is the most famous example, and as far as I know he still uses an LS as his daily driver.

    An interesting calculation: with his net worth of $46b, if we included EVERY LS and S owner in a demographic analysis, Bill would, all by his lonesome, skew the LS average (mean) net worth upward by $230k! (I am assuming 200k LSs on US roads, which is just a guess based on a 2003 run-rate of 20k or so cars. I am also assuming that he no longer owns an MB...I know he once did, before the LS, but don't know if it was an S or if he sold it.)

    Steve Ballmer's $12b would skew the LS430 mean upward by another $60k. Steve is another LS driver, though it is conceivable that he also owns an S.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Excellent comments. The oldest LS430 driver I know is 56 years old. When I bring my car in for service most others dropping cars off are in their 40's to early 50's in appearance. In my town which is a wealthy one you see plenty of LS430's and S-class cars and it's probably a 50-50 ratio. It's the 7 and the Jag that you see only upon occassion. There are plenty of LX470's and TLC's at every school and sport event and uncountable ML's and RX's around that you see at every turn. Since I see many of the LS430 and S-class cars at school and student affairs, and since most of them come from homes in the $1-5mln range it's obvious boo20's demographics don't work around here. They are not even remotely close. Anyone can put out a financial tool linking car price to some income threshhold but that hardly means that is who the car is being sold or marketed to. Secondly as syswei states why does it even have any relevance. For what it's worth someone I know well in the $100mln+ wealth range has an LS430, an LX470, 3 old MB's from the late 70's to the late 80's (two of which are SL's) and a VW beetle. He's 55 years old.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    "The average yearly income of an LS buyer is 186,000. The average yearly income of an S class buyer is 284,000."

    These stats have little to do with who can afford what car. Income should not be confused with wealth, which are two different things.

    Somebody may have an income of $300,000 but also have two mortgages, car payments, credit card debt, very little in the bank, etc. They may only be able to afford an Accord. They have a big income but would not be considered wealthy.

    On the flip side, somebody may make $100,000 but have no mortgage or any other debt with lots of money saved up. This person could easily buy most any car with cash.

    The true measure of what somebody can afford is their wealth (money saved up), not their income.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Well, probably there are no invariable rules on how much money you *should* spend on a car, but I'd wager that there is a real link between yearly income and amount spent on a car, even though there'll be variances. After the bubble, I think there are still people that have significant amounts saved up, but they're dealing with that very conservatively and re-adjusted to live off their salaries, a revolutionary concept for many who were used to spend out of their stock option accounts. :-)

    I think both the Lex and the S (and others discussed here) are the type of car people with high yearly incomes consider, because I think they target primarily business customers - a large sedan seldom is a choice out of passion.

    I know my dad had a rule to never spend more than 4 x your monthly salary on an everyday car, which I think a prudent approach. In Europe, where company cars are perks and you get a mix of tax benefits and liabilities with it, there rules are different.
  • pathdocpathdoc Member Posts: 126
    Even stodgy Consumer Reports found the S430 to be a better "handler" than the LS430(CR Nov. 03,p58). "handling is not particularly agile,and body lean in corners is pronounced". About the S430(p.59): "The S430 is both refined and enjoyable sporty. It is the most comfortable-riding car we have ever tested,and its agile handling makes it a delight to drive."
    This summarizes my findings when I have tested the LS vs Mersedes S.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Posts like yours with experience on both sides of the coin are so much better than the ridiculous bashing that goes on here at times. Your feeling about the S-430 vs LS430 mirrors my experience in 2001 when I shopped the S-class. I needed the S-500 to truly compete but still preferred the ride, luxury and phenomenal interior of the LS430 over the S500 which is a truly fine car and not one that should ever be bashed. The fact that you can get the LS430 if you go that route and pocket $18k or $350 a month if you're leasing makes it all the more better. You also sound like me with the 99:1 ratio as I've said the same thing many times. Lastly I never thought the S-class had much road feel or driver feedback which is the biggest mis-representation I've ever read on this board. In fact it and the Lexus were very close in every way. That is the biggest joke of all because if you bash the LS you are also bashing the S-class because they are so close in the essence of what they do and do so well. Now the AMG's may be a different story but that is not a stock car as far as I am concerned.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Interesting story in C&D. Mistsubishi has the lowest age buyer in the industry. 38.
    They are actually going after an OLDER buyer.
    Better credit, higher dollar purchases, etc. etc.
    Food for thought.

    How many of you guys have disclosed to the F&I guy or to a customer questionaire, what you actually make?
    If you are pulling in 500K a year do you tell them? I don't know anybody who would.
    I'd tell them enough to get the loan.

    And if you paycash, then how do they know?

    The demographics are seriously skewed downward on ANY luxury product.
  • boo20boo20 Member Posts: 85
    There is no logical relationship between what is the most common trade-in and what cars compete in the same market segment. My point was that Lexus appears to appeal to the same conservative geriatric crowd (thus explaining its uninspired styling) that Cadillac aspires to. Lexus has substantial brand loyalty and that's why most of the trade-ins are from previous Lexus owners. It seems to me that the people who are attracted to Cadillac would also be attracted to the Lexus.

    As far as selling new cars it may be true that MBUSA cannot legally compel its dealer network to sell them at or below MSRP they CAN exert considerable "influence" on them by regulating the allocation to each dealership. If this were not the case how can you otherwise explain the shenanigans going on with the SLs where they are sold back to the dealer with 15,000 miles and resold at MSRP? This is a common ccurence with MBs and rare or nonexistent with Lexus. 18 month waiting lists are also unheard of in Lexus country. Buyers selling their waiting list position for cash to more eager buyers is also common with the more popular MB models and would be laughed at by Lexus where you can go into any dealership and buy these cars right off of the lot. There's a reason that MBs are much more desirable than Lexi. Some of us have figured this out already.

    I am still waiting for an answer to the question I posed previously: what would happen to LS430 sales if they raised the price of their vehicles to the level of the S class? Would they sell more or fewer vehicles? My guess is that their sales would plummet. Why would that be if the LS430 is as good or better than the S? Because 1) it isn't and 2) given their demographics this would price many current Lexus buyers out of the market.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Actually when I leased the car and told them my salary they stopped right there. The fact was that my bonus, other business income and personal income (interest, dividends etc.) were never included. In fact what I told them represented only a fraction of my annual income and that is what is on file. If I had bought with cash or separate bank loan instead of leased I wouldn't have needed to disclose anything to them. Age was asked in brackets - but i don't remember if it was 5 or 10 year brackets. i was approved within minutes as it seems all they really do is run a credit check.

    Prices - more absurdity. If Lexus existed for 100+ years and MB existed for 12 years MB would be the lower price point. That is business pure and simple. It takes a while to build brand equity and what Lexus has achieved in 12 years is stupendous. Plus Lexus builds the cars more efficiently and hence has a lower cost of goods than MB. So any smart business staregy would use that for competitive pricing advantage. Business 101. They've nearly doubled the prices in 12 years while MB has been forced to lower prices. What does that tell you? It tells me that if I was an MB loyalist I would hope Lexus hangs around forever.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I agree with ljflx, you are missing the prestige factor. Pure prestige accumulated over 100 years allows MB to get away with its price premiums. As I said once in the Lexus vs Mercedes forum, Lexus is so young as a company that very few people who can afford one grew up aspiring to own one. And none grew up as a kid in a family where the parents aspired to own Lexus. That&#146;s a handicap that constrains pricing.

    What other company besides MB could get away with charging $10,700 for a designo edition (S500) that basically gives you some unusual color choices (unusual for the US, they are apparently standard in some other countries) for exterior and interior, plus a wood/leather steering wheel and shift knob (which are standard on even on the base LS)?

    If you slapped a Lexus badge on a G500 it would sell very few, perhaps close to zero, units. Even the car rags suggested such in their reviews...that for the price the G had little to offer except the three-pointed star.

    If you put a Lexus badge on the S and tried to sell it at its currently high prices, it would sell fewer units.

    Conversely if you slapped a MB badge on a LS without raising the price, it would sell lots more units.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Thank you for your viewpoint, and welcome to the board!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    > If Lexus existed for 100+ years and MB existed
    > for 12 years MB would be the lower price point

    As we business folk know, stretching 10 year trends to a century is questionable. Many things can happen. It'll be interesting to see which brands are still around in a century. That is speculation.

    > what Lexus has achieved in 12 years is stupendous

    That, of course, is absolutely true. Lexus is a no-doubt bone-fide luxury player. Globally, though, the MB brand name still carries far more value, and car marketing folk claim it's Merc and Porsche which have the highest global brand equity. And given the mismanagement of Merc in the last 12 years, that is a testament to a powerful brand name and mass psychology...

    > Plus Lexus builds the cars more efficiently
    > and hence has a lower cost of goods than MB.

    I am not sure if it's still the case, but I thought histrocially Merc's margins are way higher than Toyota's. They've both managed to run up huge losses as of late, so for now it's a bit of a moot point.

    > MB has been forced to lower prices. What does
    > that tell you?

    Not a lot, since lowering prices can be done for a variety of stratgic business goals, and MB still has more than enough models that sell at $90k plus - more so than any other vendor. The fact they've managed to hang in competitively despite compromised "design for excellence" benchmarks also says a lot about the other players. It is obvious Merc made a decision to build their core models to a cost point, and no longer to an uncompromised standard, which allowed them to lower prices and benefit from the trend towards "luxury for the masses" which they for a large degree initiated. If there's a brand that knows how to exploit their brand equity, it's MB, no question about it.

    End customer perception always lags market reality for a while, and I wonder how long it'll take consumers to realize MB and BMW and others are increasingly creeping downmarket, and when it'll dillute the true luxury perception...
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Actually both companies have been reporting down comparisons but both were profitable in 2Q, with Toyota doing comparatively better.

    "Toyota reported a net profit of 222.5 billion yen ($1.85 billion) in the April-June quarter, down from a profit of 246.3 billion yen in the year-ago period."

    "In the quarter ended June 30" DaimlerChrysler "earned $125 million, or 13 cents a share, compared with $1.27 billion, or $1.27 a share, a year ago.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    My point in bringing up the trans issues that are talked about on here is that they would seem to be much widerspread than those surveys would lead you to believe. Surveys don't give the whole picture. They way you and others count the posts about problems on this board as being all-encompasing, the 7-Series and/or the BMW name, the Acura TL-S and/or the Acura name should be much lower on the surveys, and they aren't. I wasn't saying the 7-Series placed fifth, I was saying that BMW as a brand placed fifth. I just think it's kinda silly to just blindly think that these surveys really give you the whole picture, especially when you don't even get the details as to what these "problems" are.

    You consider CR to be the end-all too right? They are probably the most automotive ignorant group of people calling themselves auto testers. They don't even know how to do basic performance testing on cars. All they can do it collect data, which is somewhat better detailed than JDP, but their actual "testing" is a joke.

    The last time I checked a wood/leather steering wheel for an S-Class was $840.00 option, not 10K. Please read up on what you get with the Designo package before giving such incorrect information. Designo editions are very much overpriced, absolutely no argument from mere there. They aren't "standard" in other countries either.

    There is something to be said about making a wood and leather steering wheel standard and call it an advantage. It says something about whats important to those respective brands.

    ljflx,

    "Lastly I never thought the S-class had much road feel or driver feedback which is the biggest mis-representation I've ever read on this board.In fact it and the Lexus were very close in every way. That is the biggest joke of all because if you bash the LS you are also bashing the S-class because they are so close in the essence of what they do and do so well."

    Couldn't be more wrong, if that were the case the much cheaper LS would have ran the S-Class off the market long time ago. They don't drive the same, nor do look and feel the same. The vast differences of opinion (from owners too) on this board should illustrate that to you. I don't expect anyone from the Lexus crowd to understand anything about chasis dynamics as it's not as important as stereos and nav systems. Yes these two cars are similiar in mission but how they get there is different. And as far as bashing goes, style wise the S doesn't get anywhere near (if any) the bashing the LS does....probably their biggest difference of all, styling.

    M
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I have to respond to your quote:

    "...Lexus appears to appeal to the same conservative geriatric crowd (thus explaining its uninspired styling) that Cadillac aspires to. Lexus has substantial brand loyalty and that's why most of the trade-ins are from previous Lexus owners. It seems to me that the people who are attracted to Cadillac would also be attracted to the Lexus."

    As I said, I'm more in the E-class / 5-series / GS buyer category. But for you to make that claim is particularly funny to me. You make it sound like Mercedes is some "hip" company and Lexus should diversify into the funeral parlor business.

    May I point out, Mercedes offers no E-class or above, or AMG cars with a manual transmission to compete with BMW. A E55 6-speed would have great appeal to me, but alas, only the M5 will allow me that option. The $50k+ SLK32 is a cure for insomnia compared to the driving dynamics of my $32k S2000. In my car shopping experiences, I have consistently been told by Mercedes dealers that "we tend to appeal to an older, more conservative demographic, especially here in America". I'm in my late 40's and a Republican. Who the hell are they talking about?

    If you think driving an S-class instead of an LS makes you feel younger, by all means go for it. But your position about the age/appeal issue is pretty funny from my perspective.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    When was the last time you drove an LS430 that you are an expert on it? The new model has more road feel and a tighter suspension than the 2000 and earlier LS400. The 2004 has increased that even further from what I've read. I drove these cars extensively in 2001 and they both isolate you from the road. Don't agree with you at all and I will use my own personal experience here.
  • boo20boo20 Member Posts: 85
    Hey don't be so sensitive. I'm not the one who initially claimed that MB appeals to an older crowd (now he denies that was his meaning, OK). That was someone else. I was just responding with facts as opposed to speculation that it's actually Lexus that has the older demographic.

    As I've said before there is nothing wrong, whatsoever, in appealing to the geriatric crowd. Nothing to be ashamed of. If anything it puts Lexus' styling strategy into perspective.

    MB also appeals to the more mature person. For one thing they are so expensive that few young folks can afford them. That doesn't mean that younger people don't aspire to them however. Look at mbworld.org for example. Lots of young people on that board hoping one day to own an MB.

    Hey no offence intended. I'm middle aged too.

    Hold the Grey Poupon and pass the Dentu-cream and Ben-Gay.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    From the same consumer Reports article you quoted (Nov. 2003 pg. 57)

    "1 Lexus LS 430

    The LS430 is hard to fault, other than for an unexciting character It's refined, comfortable,relaxing,and reliable, and provides effortless performance. Its base price is $55,125. To equip it similarly to the other cars here, we added the optional $12, 485 Ultra Luxury package, which raised the price to $70,447-still the least expensive of this months group."

    Also in the same article on page 56.

    "The Lexus LS430 was not only the least expensive of the group but also scored the highest and is the only car we can recommend."

    ALSO NOTE:..I believe it was the 2003 that was tested and not the 2004....

    Finally the reliability rating for the LS was their best rating and the rating for the 745I and the S430 were their lowest.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    JD Power today announced the results of their 2003 APEAL Awards and Lexus finished on top in a few categories. For those that don't know, the study measures "owners' delight with the design, content, layout and performance" of their new vehicles.

    Lexus won several awards including the #1 nameplate (Porsche was #2 and BMW #3) and the LS 430 was the highest ranked premium luxury car (Mercedes SL was #2 and BMW 7 Series #3).
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I came across this article, and thought that it might be of interest to you.

    http://www.chiefexecutive.net/depts/executivelife/192.htm
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The study lenscap mentionned "is based on responses from 102,975 new-vehicle owners. The study, now in its eighth year, is based on eight specific categories of vehicle performance and design that identify what consumers like and dislike about their new vehicles during the first 90 days of ownership. The areas are: engine/transmission; ride, handling and braking; comfort/convenience; seats; cockpit/instrument panel; heating, ventilation and cooling; sound system; and styling/exterior."

    Notice that quality/reliability is NOT included, but Lexus still places first both as an overall nameplate and in the luxury sedan category.

    To see the details, go to http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/releases/index.asp?catid=1, click "Lexus" and then click one of the blue icons under "awardees" or "press release".
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    ...including some mainstream models. Today's Wall Street Journal published data on dealers' days supply (i.e., days worth of cars on the lot):

    "Honda Pilot 9
    Mini Cooper 10
    Toyota Sienna 11
    Mercedes-Benz SL-Class 12
    Lexus RX 330 12
    Honda CR-V 13
    Acura TSX 14
    Acura MDX 15
    Honda Odyssey 15
    Nissan Quest 16
    Audi A8/S8* 16

    For the month of September. Rankings are based on the number of days vehicles stayed in stock at about 3,000 dealerships around the country, starting with the vehicle that moved the fastest. Models on sale four months or less, or no longer in production, are excluded.

    Source: Power Information Network LLC, an affiliate of J.D. Power & Associates"
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    About JDP's long-term reliability studies, I think you're the one that is "blindly" assuming that the study doesn't cover items that you mentionned, such as transmissions. JDP's release on the VDS says "The 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study is based on responses from more than 55,000 original owners of 2000 model-year cars and light trucks. The study covers 147 specific problem symptoms grouped into nine major vehicle systems."

    147 potential problem areas...what makes you "blindly assume" that transmissions are not included? What makes you think that a company that (1) was founded in 1968 and (2) has done the VDS since 1990 and (3) that gets feedback from the auto companies that pay big bucks for its research, feedback that presumably includes ideas for what questions might be included in the standard surveys...

    ...somehow would be stupid enough not to ask about transmission problems?
  • boo20boo20 Member Posts: 85
    Visit your local MB dealer. Just try to get a NEW SL500. Not a 2003 model that's used. See if you can pick one off the lot in the same way I could get an SC today. You might be able to do it for an SL55 as these cars are priced in the stratosphere and the market for them is not as large.

    The market has indeed spoken. MB, at a higher price point and with worse reliability, has waiting lists for some of their cars.

    Lexus does not.

    That, in itself, should tell you something about the public's perception of prestige and desirability.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    As I've said before, MB does indeed offer higher prestige, but this isn't exactly Lexus' fault, as it is rather hard to build prestige and brand equity in a 14-year span.

    As for the SL, I fully believe that some dealers have 0 stock...but some must have more than 12 days worth, so that the mean works out to 12. And it does say SL Class, so the S55 would be included. I highly doubt that used vehicles are included, but you can check the the PR department at JDP if you want.

    If you still doubt the numbers, I guess it is your choice to ignore hard data gathered from a large sample of dealers by an independent and (presumably) unbiased source. It is your choice to ignore facts that aren't in agreement with your preconcieved view of the world.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I think you missed my point. I'm not personally sensitive to your comments about Lexus being aimed at the geriatric crowd. I don't own one and probably never will. It's just my impression that you, as a Mercedes advocate, are the kettle calling the pot black in this case. I see no difference whatsover in the S class vs. LS buyer demographic - at least age wise. And Mercedes dealers make no apologies to a "middle age" guy like me when they indicate they are going after a more conservative (i.e. older)buyer than BMW.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That's bad business in my book. It means you didn't properly anticipate demand or you have a production problem and couldn't manufacture the intended supply. Either one is a mistake. Since only a small percentage of customers put themselves on waiting list with an intent to wait for long (virtually all go elsewhere either initially or a month or so later) it means you most likely lost a customer. That is not something to be proud of.

    If the SL has a 12 day supply - how does it have a waiting list? Shouldn't a waiting list mean a negative figure of some sort??
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The designo editions and what you really get for the money...

    This analysis turned out the be easier with the S600, since the S600 is already outfitted to a very high degree. On the S600, for $8900 spent on the designo package, as far as I can tell the only things you get are:

    - different color exterior
    - different color interior (leather color and different wood...elm or poplar, neither of which is an expensive wood)
    - steering wheel and shift knob have nappa leather rather than regular leather (nappa leather seats and interior trim are already standard on the S600)
    - leather trim on floor mats

    A total ripoff.

    My source for the above was http://autos.msn.com/advice/pricereport.aspx?modelid=3384

    As far as the designo colors being available standard in other countries, I swear I saw something on the MB site that implies this, but I can't find it now. But if you go to MB's UK site, you will see that ALL the colors offered there are available standard (i.e., no extra-cost colors). Unfortunately, the color names are different and the color samples are too small to really compare to the US designo colors.
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