High End Luxury Cars

b4z · October 2003

To echo you comments about VW/Audi.

Have always heard and felt that they put their money in the interiors. Especially Audi, which has just the right mix of aluminum, wood and plastic.

I guess the powertrain has to take the hit. There is no free lunch.

No manufacturer has figured out how to do it all for a price.

Don't know about Lexus, but i think Hondas have thinner sheetmetal.
The Asians have been doing this for some time.
The public doesn't seem to notice or care until it needs to be repaired.

I believe GM was the first of the domestics to go with thinner sheetmetal.
In '77 with the redesigned/downsized Impala/LeSabre/Bonneville/Fleetwood,etc.

Chrysler made a bid deal about the reintroduced early 80's Imperial having extra thick sheetmetal.
The new SSR has thicker sheetmetal but weighs 4700 lbs!!!

ksurg · October 2003

Thanks for you comments. Truth be told I'm not sure I want to spend the extra bucks for the S500. For most of my friends it's a status thing, which I think is stupid. I've never been in the Lexus fan club either. It's not that it isn't a great vehicle, it just isn't my preference. When it comes down to it I guess my choices are between the A8L,745iL, or XJ-8. Keep in mind I already have a C4S for fun and a Yukon XL for utility( a must with 3 kids, two dogs, a boat...).

merc1 · October 2003

Well despite popular belief it's not all about the so-called bashing of Lexus with me. I see things a lot clearer than you might think. I like Audi almost as much as do Mercedes-Benz, but that doesn't mean I don't see the issues that both makes have.

b4z,

Yep, the Japanese have traditionally used thinner sheetmetal. VW/Audi should be able to get past their infamous window switch and transmission issues as they have either, or are going to switch suppliers for both as new models arrive. The new A8 uses the same trans as the Jaguar XJ & S-Type, and the BMW 7-Series, among others. I actually got a chance to talk to a ZF engineer at the Detroit show this year. They supply something to just about every European make nowadays. ZF along with Bosch are the German brands key suppliers.

M

tasillo · October 2003

I may be mistaken in this, but I believe the new Porsche Cayenne and VW Touraeg use a 6-speed automatic sourced from Japanese transmission company, Aisin. Sacrilege! I have driven both however and found the transmission incredibly smooth, especially in the VW. Perhaps the Japanese technology and build quality has been attractive to the Germans? I'd imagine the ZF marketing people must have fainted!

syswei · October 2003

Autoweek has lots of pictures of the Acura (next gen NSX) and Lexus concepts: http://autoweek.com/specials/2003_tokyo/

The Acura is listed as "Honda HSC"

merc1 · October 2003

Partially correct. The Cayenne uses a Asisn (sp) (Japanese) unit, and VW uses a ZF (German) unit.

M

scottphillip · October 2003

My local dealership was delivering a XLR to a customer. I made a quick U-turn on my way to work (priorities) and stopped to take a look at it. I was impressed by the exterior design--very modern, and displaying all the latest Cadillac styling cues. The man buying it was pushing 80. I had my checkbook out to put a deposit on one, but the salesman wrote MSRP plus $5,000 on the sales order. I don't want one that badly!

I hope that the cars sell well. It's nice to see a good-looking American car.

fenn · October 2003

It is nice to see Cadillac progress from the old days. It is a bit ironic that a Led Zeppelin song is their advertising theme these days. However, I am sure that some anachronistic Cadillac dealers will continue to add gold trim, vinyl roofs, and Vogue tires to some of these new and improved Caddies. LOL

scottphillip · October 2003

I saw a 2004 XJ8 today, and thought of you. How is your car doing? What's your mileage now? Do you have the 20" Sepang wheels?

The Jaguar I saw was black, and looked great! I just wish that my town had a dealership.

merc1 · October 2003

Bentley, Maybach and Rolls-Royce have nothing under their hoods compared to this:

http://www.mercedes-benz.com/omb/amg/e/cars/kleinserie_s65.htm

M

fenn · October 2003

Thanks for asking about the XJR. Mine has the XJR's standard performance wheel package, not the Sepangs...I tested a car with the 20" wheels and it stuck to the road like glue, but it felt a bit harsher.

My car has about 3500 miles on it, and it is still a joy to drive. It still feels like the perfect blend of luxury and sport. It is a nice paradox to enjoy the sporting side of the car, along with the smooth luxurious side of the car.

The only issue has been a minor interior trim problem with the leather on the console. It appears that some early '04 cars have had a minor leather adhesive problem which is easily repaired. This is the only bug that I have encountered.

ljflx · October 2003

It will be very interesting to see what the next gen LS will look like given these car designs. I think both are knockouts and I'm searching hard to see the bloated bimmers in these things that were noted in the article. I've loved the HPX since I first saw it and am glad it looks like it will come to market. As well the Hybrid technology is starting to take center stage and the combo of efficiency and power will be awesome. I wonder where the others stand with that technology. I was not as aware of Toyota's prowess here until recently but I mentioned it to others and found that many are following its' development and what Toyota and Lexus will do with it closely.

pat · October 2003

lenscap · October 2003

As a follow up on the Tokyo Auto Show, the next generation traction control system was unveiled, dubbed VDM (Vehicle Dynamics Management). It will be deployed in the redesigned Lexus GS.

The system employs what is called "active steering" to keep drivers from having to countersteer to correct a potential spin when the wheels lose their grip.

It works by employing steer-by-wire software that automatically sends steering input to the wheels to make sure the car stays on course. Instead of waiting for the car to get out of control, it begins to modulate steering when traction loss is detected...it corrects the skid before the driver notices traction loss which makes countersteering unneccesary.

ljflx · October 2003

My post is out of sequence now. Either that, Pat, or I have great anticipatory skills.

pat · October 2003

Anyway, lenscap has been trying to share an article here but little details like copyright laws have gotten in the way a couple of times.

So let's try this - from Automotive News: TOKYO 2003: Lexus finally gets a design of its own.

Note that registration (free) will be required to access it.

scottphillip · October 2003

Ray,
Is that an SL or S55?

How do I email you?
Scott

ksurg · October 2003

I was reading some of the past discussions and saw that you were comparing the E55, M5, RS-6 and XJR(or as you said more appropriately the S type R). Since I last posted I've been giving consideration to getting an RS-6 instead of an A8L. If you're wondering why I seem to stick with Audi it's because they're running a lease special where you can turn over an existing Audi lease about a year early without any charge. So I want to trade up from an A6 4.2. For those who wonder why anyone would want to go from 0 to 60 in 5 seconds with the kids in the back seat realize that the kids are only in the back seat maybe 20% of the time. The problem is they're big kids. What do you guys think. And does anyone know if there will be a 2004 RS-6?

ljflx · October 2003

I'm going to have to eat my words after reading through Car and Drivers $70k sedan review this evening.

The LS430 was at the top of the heap with 184 points and the S430 was at the bottom with 163 points, trailing even the Phaeton. The Jag XJ8 in second place with 182 points helps to provide clear interpretation that the reviewers favored ride as a driving force in this one. All the normal words about fun to drive factors were in there as usual but this time the reviewers favored the type of things I look for in a lux sedan over those things. This does not - in any way - mean I change my viewpoint on the autorags nor do I agree that an LS430 is 21 points higher than an S430. It just illustrates that the reviewers will favor what they seek in a car just like buyers on this board will. If the car provides it than that is the car that is best for the person or that gets the highest rating in the comparos. There really is no "generic" best as far as I am concerned in this group when each car plays to a different strength or set of strengths.

With all that said - I did get to ride in and drive my buddy's 2004 euro LS last weekend - one that he had picked up a few days before. The car is virtually the same as my 2001 inside - except that he was able to show off his blue tooth technology and satellite radio (which is awesome) but the ride and handling is better than ever. It's amazing to me that as good as any of these cars are when you buy or lease them that the auto mfrs. continue to improve them noticably within a few years. I couldn't imagine a car riding better than my 2001 LS but the 2004 with a sport suspension rides noticably better and even quieter than my 2001.

merc1 · October 2003

Officially there will be no "2004" RS6 models, but the 2003 models are being built until the end of the year last time I asked about one. I test drove an A4 a little while ago and the dealer had a RS6 on the floor for only "90K", you know the usual markup games. I think if you want an RS6 go for it, just drive sensibly when little ones are riding along. This the most awesome Audi to ever be sold here and the only one built by Quattro GmBh. Next up...a RS4, most likely with the same engine as the RS6!

ljflx,

Nice way of saying I told you so. I'm not surprised here due to fact that all those cars are newer and more powerful and Car and Driver's rating systems has changed to something similar to a Road and Track format. This cuts out some of the personal preference stuff that used to go into their tests. What all cars were in the test, and what was their final placement? Where did the 7-Series finish (if it was there)?

Speaking of the Phaeton, the V8 it was announced will start at 64K and change. The W12 between 80-84K for the first few launch edition models. What did Car and Driver say about the big V-dub?

M

syswei · October 2003

Suggest you check http://www.autonation.com/Corporate/Default.asp?Page=Home, (click on 'all stores' when you do a search)...they have 2004 S55, S600, SL500, SL600 in stock. The only SL55 they have is a 2003. Isn't there a SL65 coming?

ljflx · October 2003

The scores - LS - 184, XJ8 - 182, 745I - 179, A8L -178, Phaeton - 171 and S430 - 163. But underneath the gross ratings it is easy to see how preferences come in to play and why scores could easily be different if those preferences were weighted differently. For example - fun to drive - 745I -9, LS, A8L and Phaeton - 7, S430 - 8. In powertrain performance the S430 scored a 7 but in chassis performance it scored a 10 (the only one to do so). In fit and finish and features/amenities (two things that drive me) only the LS scored a 10. Ride (which is also sky high with me) was an interesting one. The LS and XJ scored a 9 (though the article in verbage states that the Lexus ride is unmatched in this group). Here the 7 scored only a 6 probably due to the preference on handling.

Anyway - this is not at all an I told you so. It just shows the different strengths of the cars and that the audience of fans and buyers will always side with the car that provides what they want the best. The "my car is better than yours" and "this car doesn't even belong in the group" stuff is ridiculous.

merc1 · October 2003

Sounds very interesting, can't wait to read it. One more question, were these all 2004 model year cars? Curious to know what Car and Driver thought of the S430's new tranny. Anyway, I always get C&D days later than everyone else, not sure why.

" The "my car is better than yours" and "this car doesn't even belong in the group" stuff is ridiculous."

Well you know I've never said that about any of these cars, I only stated my preferences and why. I think Automobile stated something like that about the LS430, but obviously C&D disagrees with that.

syswei,

Yes there will be a SL65, it should be officially introduced at either the Detroit show in Jan, or the Geneva show in March.

M

jrasskul · October 2003

Glad to hear your impressions of the new LS 430. I am getting ready to order one with the Euro sport package. I'm not a fan of a very soft ride and loose steering, but this car seems to have everything else. Haven't been able to drive one with the sport suspension, but with alloy wheels it's a cheap enough option to bet that it will make a difference.

merc1 · October 2003

Uhh...I think you were meaning for that post to be addressed to ljflx.

M

jamiem4 · October 2003

Please HELP!! We are about to trade our 2001 750iL for a new S500? Is this smart?? My husband was so disillusioned with the new BMW body design that he's thinking Mercedes. Any thoughts? We may do this today, Halloween, around 5pm?? The BMW is beautiful, so are the Mercedes....Thanks!

jrasskul · October 2003

Glad to hear your impressions of the new LS 430. I am getting ready to order one with the Euro sport package. I'm not a fan of a very soft ride and loose steering, but this car seems to have everything else. Haven't been able to drive one with the sport suspension, but with alloy wheels it's a cheap enough option to bet that it will make a difference.

lenscap · October 2003

I have yet to recive my Car & Driver as well, so I'll be anxious to see what they had to say.

It seems very clear now that the LS will be completely redesigned in the summer of 2005. Another article from Automotive News says that Toyota wants to revamp the entire Lexus lineup when Lexus is launched in Japan in August 2005 with L-Finesse-designed cars that have no visual links to Toyotas. Any further push into Europe will be delayed until the Japan launch of the new cars.

In an interesting twist of irony, Lexus does not want to sell any North American Lexuses as rebadged Lexuses in Japan (that's why the current Lexuses were not on display at the Tokyo Auto Show, only the two L-Finesse cars). In other words, the RX 330 will not all of a sudden become a Lexus in Japan in 2005. Again, they say they want a whole new lineup designed from scratch.

My guess is the RX, ES, LX, etc. will stay as North American Lexuses only until they're redesigned. At that time they'll get the L-Finesse treatment and be sold in North America, Japan and Europe. I wonder if that means names like Celsior, Aristo, etc. would be dropped when the new L-Finesse replacements come. We'll have to wait and see.

ljflx · October 2003

The LS400 was developed as a Lexus here and as the Celsior in Japan and simply packaged as a Toyota instead of a Lexus there. If it weren't for the development of Lexus in 1990 Toyota would probably have never brought the Celsior to market in Japan in the first place. So I don't understand their logic on this one. Nevertheless - I'm sure they have done their market research so I'm not going to question it. I'm very curious as to what that next gen LS will look like.

fenn · October 2003

I read these tests and try to use this information, but I get a kick of how these tests and testers come ups with such a wide range of opinions.

For example I see that Car and Driver had the LS430 and XJ8 tied for best ride.. Contrast this with Consumer Reports (not a true auto authority) stating that the XJ8 ride was quite inferior.. and the LS430's superlative. The same two cars.. with different interpretations. Oh well.

The fact is that all of these luxury cars are pretty damn good. Each has its own appeal, whether it is ride, performance, status or amenities...

By the way I think that the Audi RS6 is a very cool car. It is a very hot performance vehicle. However, it is a high priced performance sedan rather than a luxury car. In my mind, it appeals to folks that might be M5 fans, rather than those that are looking at luxury sedans.

ljflx · October 2003

The S430 was optioned out to $87k with a sport suspension - which is crazy - because anyone in their right mind would take an S500 at that price level. The 2004 was unavailable so they used a 2003. Perhaps the 7 speed will help but they complained about lack of power and having driven the S430 in 2001 I know what they mean. They should have used a less equipped $85k S500.

An interesting sidebar is the complaint against the lawyers on the nav screens and against iDrive in particular. Many of us on the board said it was overkill and needless before the new 7 even arrived. The techies at BMW got far too carried away with making the simple tasks so difficult. But C&D condemns it and thinks it will make the resale values on the 7 series take a beating. I think they are 100% right on that one.

merc1 · October 2003

Well you know I might register a small complaint with not using current cars, that really isn't a fair comparision to use different model year cars when the newer model has some valid improvements. I'm curious to see what the next mag will say. However you are correct...they should have used a S500, even I would rather have the S500. I'm sure the S430 got killed in the value equation too optioned out that way. The unfortunate part about comparisions is that each maker has a test fleet and whatever is in the fleet at the time of the magazines request is used so they don't always get the right car, or a correctly optioned one.

As far as resale goes, the 7 has always lagged. That said, none of these cars are going to be a picnic to own once they age, they all have a certain level or electrical complication that will be very expensive to maintain years and miles down the road. Even the Lexus can't escape this once it ages.

What do you all think of the Phaeton?

M

bluestar1 · October 2003

"What do you all think of the Phaeton?"

As has been stated by many others, VW does NOT have the pizzazz, history, heritage and clout to retail $60K+ cars in the US car market. How many people will look to buy a $64K V8 or $80K V12 Phaeton ? At that price level, there are significantly better more name-recognized cars than a VW. I own an LS and would never consider a VW at a luxury car price range. Even a nicely optioned 2004 LS can be purchased for less than that. Now tell me if anyone believes a VW is in the same class as a Lexus ! And if VW's can be priced that high, whatever happened to Audi, their supposed luxury line ?

Meaning: VW's Phaeton, while a nice car, will not succeed in the US market.

michael_mattox · November 2003

One of the huge selling points for the Lexus is dependability...They do NOT suffer the electrical problems that Mercedes suffers as it ages.

Heck Mercedes has electrical problems before it ages.

ljflx · November 2003

At $69k (the estimated price C&D put on the car, which they thought might be low) the Phaeton is not worth it. Plus it is a very heavy car. I'd buy an A8L long before I'd ever consider a Phaeton. They aren't going to cut it here in my opinion and I still am missing VW's whole strategy. The US market is not big enough at this scale. You already have two exceptional softer riding cars in the S and LS and buyers are fiercely loyal to both. Then you have the more sport handlers in the 7 and the A8L (though it doesn't seem Audi is in BMW's league on performance in the big sedan from what I have read). Then of course you have Infinit and Cadillac waiting to pounce as well with far better buyer confidence and acceptance than VW. Plus they have whole lines of cars whereas the Phaeton is an oddball in VW's lineup. I hope their strategy isn't to be have a softer contra-Audi car at each level. They will get crushed.

If they want to have a chance they have to make the type of direct strike Lexus made in 1990 and then roll out more models right away. But if they do that then you have to wonder why Audi is here. I just don't get it.

pat · November 2003

You folks might be interested in reading a first-hand review by a member who had a 24 hour test drive of the W12 Phaeton. He posted the invitation here dhander "Volkswagen Phaeton" Oct 15, 2003 1:05pm and he has made several more posts about the actual experience starting here dhander "Volkswagen Phaeton" Oct 30, 2003 3:40am.

Enjoy!

ljflx · November 2003

Plus Jaguar which I left out by mistake and which also has a loyal legion of buyers.

niceputt · November 2003

Haha!! Had I not known my wife is a tech-phobe, I would have bet big money your "Help" message was from her.

Just sold a 2002 Lexus 470. She has a BMW 330 conv. and Im buying a new 'touring' car. So the top 3 were Lexus LS430, BMW 745, Benz S430/500.

We love the exterior of the BMW and its ride, we even blindfolded ourselves to overlook the awful rear end design they came up with. It was the I-Drive, however, that was impossible to swallow. Out of the question, especially if you have ever used the systems in a Lexus. As I said, she is a tech-phobe but she took my last Lexus on a 45 minute drive and had it all figured out without lifting the manual. So I took a drive to Lexus and took a look at the LS430. I was astonished at the superb job they have done in everything, (styling still a little stodgy but a lot better than it was). AND, for 15k LESS than the
BMW. So I was about to write a check to a dealer, and my wife begged me to look at the Benz first. When I saw the S 430/500, I was immediately (and very) emotionally hooked. What a GREAT style with that rake on the front end. It is, imo, the best looking car on the market at any price. However, once I got into looking at the reliability, and in particular the nav/communcations/environmental systems, the Lexus beat it in every single area. (They tie in comfort, the Benz a little stiffer for a sportier ride) I learned my lesson from my BMW what it is like to try and navigate yourself around in the European designed nav, twirling dials and pushing it every few seconds, even for a simple task like changing form FM to AM. And, Benz is traditionally, a couple of generations behind Lexus in tehcnology. E.G., how about Bluetooth technology for Lexus. Outstanding! Anyway, we've decided to go with the Lexus, and then realized we were also saving about 20k in the process (from the Lexus price I was able to locate). I can throw a heck of a party for that much money. Last week I got the current issue of Consumer Reports...they happened to be comparing these three cars (and Audi). Their findings were almost exactly as our impressions. Hope this helps. Let me hear what you decide.

ksurg · November 2003

What a "nice" car... my father would love it. OK I officially concede that it's not fun. However, are S500's, 745i's or LS430's fun? My problem now is that I drove a RS-6. Now consider that I'm coming from a C4S as my daily driver. Though not as nimble as the Porsche, the RS-6 truly offers hair raising acceleration and handling. Though the E55 AMG is faster in a straight line,in real life driving( i.e. aggressive driving) I think the RS-6 has the advantage. As for the venerable M5...it's close and I suspect the new V-10 version may outperform. Now for the bad news. The RS-6 starts out with a premium( approx. 10K fully loaded) and has a surprisingly low residual at 3 an 4 years. What does this mean? It means it is unbelievably expensive to lease. If another sales person tells me how much more it will be worth at the end of the lease than estimated I'll scream. So my choice is to buy or pass. If I buy it will be in December, a "great" time to buy an '03 model. No RS-6's are planned for '04. If this is the case I am willing to pay invoice and not MRSP. Does anyone disagree? Maybe I'll sit my lease out and get a new M5 or dare I say DonFenn an XJR! Any opinions?

jamiem4 · November 2003

Thanks for the info - we'll have to go to Lexus! We walked out of the Mercedes dealership today (after going back and forth all week with this decision). We test drove a S500 they shipped in for us and compared to the 2001 750iL the S500 didn't feel like much of a car (not as impressive to drive). We really dislike the new BMW body design and of course that nightmare i-drive, so we thought either the S55 or S500 was the next step (the S600 seems overpriced..). For 90k (sports package) it just wasn't worth it - like you say - for 20K we can have a great party instead! Much to the frustration of the dealer (we were very clear we weren't going to buy anything until we drove it) we told them "maybe next year!" - they still called us 3x today at home hoping to close a deal. After reading your message we'll keep the BMW and look at a Lexus. We have one of the last 750s shipped into the US and is just a great riding car.
Another question - is the Lexus easier on the gas? Between a 2003 Rover and the 750 we need to buy our own gas station it seems. The kids cars even drink gas but not like ours!
Your wife sounds neat! Please keep us posted as well with any car ideas. My husband has always loved BMWs until the redesign - so we're in uncharted waters around our house...Thanks! Jamie

bluestar1 · November 2003

an unsolicited advice:

Always buy what YOU like ! Having said that, I am an LS owner, and so will be biased if I were to suggest an LS over the BMW or Merc. So I won't. Rather, I'll answer your question on mpg. My '99 LS, with 75K miles, uses premium 91 octane, and does 18/20 mpg city/hiway.

habitat1 · November 2003

As an M5 owner this may sound a bit biased, but I would really think twice about spending $80k on an Audi RS-6. I think your sales person claiming it will be worth significantly more than the residual at the end of the lease should be immediately jailed for fraud. Everyone I know that has spent over $45k for an Audi of any kind has taken a complete bath at trade in time. There is just no demand for a used high performance Audi compared to an AMG or M car (or Porsche).

If I were you - and I am not, since I strongly prefer a manual transmission - I would go for a new E55 over the RS-6. The new E55 is a significant advancement over the previous version, not just in horsepower, but in handling. It's still not as crisp and fun to drive as my 6-speed M5, but it's likely to be a much better investment than an $80k+ Audi come resale or trade-in time.

Consider this "friendly" advice from someone who had a 930 Turbo as a daily driver.

ljflx · November 2003

Excellent review of the Phantom on the front page of the auto section of today's NY Times. If you read it you'll enjoy it. I didn't realize that this car has 31" tires. Wow. But those tires let a lot of road noise penetrate the cabin, which is surprising. But other than that the ride is supposed to be great. One nice touch that I hadn't noticed before is that the rear seats are raised so that the rear passenger has the same view of the road as the driver. Smart.

A sidebar to the story asked different enthusiasts if they would prefer the Phantom or the Maybach. The preference was for the Rolls. But a banking exec gave the reason as the "revolutionary design combining sportiness with maturity" which - per him - fit today's banker. Interestingly enough the review contradicted him as it made it clear that the Maybach is the sportier car. A funny sidebar was asking a valet at the Peninsula hotel in Beverly Hills which one he would park in front. His answer was neither. Reason - He takes care of the guest not the car. So I guess a guy in a Honda Accord who tips bigger gets the preferred parking spot.

The reviewer's conclusion was the Maybach was the better car but the Rolls was the bigger statement of success.

The more I see of the Maybach the more I realize that it is - from an outside design standpoint - too much of an extended S-class. It should have been designed more as its own car. The Rolls is indeed a striking car - particularly from the side - and has very much its own DNA, at least in styling.

niceputt · November 2003

Re mpg...Don't have the 2004 LS430 yet, so don't know. They are rated just one mpg more than the MBZ 430. The difference then must be even greater than the 500. However, even at my age I am learning lessons. The LX470 I just sold was rated 12 city and 16 highway and that is exactly what it would do. One day, however, I got up on the wrong side of bed and decided pump prices were too high, so on my 200 mile drive to a golf course home near Yosemite, rather than my normal 70-80, I made it a point to not exceed 55 mph, just to see what would happen to the mpg. (yep that put me in the long line of 18-wheelers). At the end of the trip there, it showed 19.9 mpg!! So at least I felt better knowing I had options available to me. :-) BTW, I heartily the persons advice about getting what you feel best with. That issue is what nearly made me go with the MBZ, the cool styling. But it was just 'nearly'. Our plan is to keep an eye on things...in 2-3 years either Lexus is going to match MBZ sporty styling, or MBZ is going to catch up with Lexus reliability and technology. It will be a quick process to just make a change to the winner at that time. BTW #2, if Lexus uncorks it styling problems, MBZ may inherit a monster of a problem keeping its current market share.

merc1 · November 2003

Well wether or not you consider the Phaeton a luxury car is pretty much moot, because on specification alone it is most certainly is a luxury car. I find it funny that anyone owning a Lexus would knock VW for not having the heritage and clout, as I thought that school of thought was that those things don't matter. VW is simply doing the same thing as Toyota did back in 1990, but they're doing it with their own brand. VW at least is a true original brand, unlike Lexus which was thought up during a Toyota board meeting in 1987. That said, I don't think it will work either. The car itself looks to be ok, if not segment busting. VW's real problem is at the dealership level and reliability.

michael_mattox,

You're missing the point. Point being, is that expensive cars like these are going to cost as they age, when something electrical fails. Yes, the reliablity of a Lexus is well harped upon, but if you think that none of them ever have a problem once they age, you're not dealing in reality. Have you not seen the posts on these boards concerning the replacement of gauge clusters and nav systems on older Lexuses? The bottom line is that none of these cars are for the 2nd or 3rd owner short of cash.

ljflx,

Yes its a confusing and as much as I love VW/Audi products, a risky strategy. VW is said to want have a model in each segment of the market. Their (not mine) logic is that people don't shop/compare Audis with VWs. Not completely true, but the degree is arguable. Yes, the Phaeton is overweight, the European press has complained about this for over a year. I see reliability and the total dealership experience (sales, service etc) being the biggest problems for the car.

The Phantom rides on metric-sys/run-flats so yes they do work out to be the largest passenger car tires on any car in the U.S. I've said all along the biggest issue with the Maybach was it's exterior and it's overally closness to a Mercedes S-Class, inside and out. Bad news is the current bodystyle is going to be around for a while (7-years).

M

bluestar1 · November 2003

As luck will have it, our Sunday local newspaper had a review of three luxury cars - VW's Phaeton, Aston Martin's DB9, Lexus' LS430. Here are excerpts:

VW Phaeton: (reviewer - Ralph Kisiel)

On its introduction to the US market....

"Instead, VW officials here and in the US often find themselves defending their decision with dealers and the news media to build a premium sedan with a VW badge"

on European sales....

"Through July VW had sold 2,574 Phaetons. The automaker had expected annual global volume to be as high as 15,000 units"

on the success of this car....

According to Frank Maguire, VW's VP of Sales and Marketing, America, states: "The challenge is not the product .... it will stand up to anything out there. The challenge is: Will people buy a luxury Volkswagen?"

Touche..

Lexus LS430: (reviewer Jerry Garrett)

"Pluses: Pleasant rumble of V8, luxurious feel, to-die-for stereo, retained value, quality.

Minuses: Very few, if the price of admission to the club doesn't scare you"

Aston Martin's DB9: (reviewer Jerry Garrett)

The article was titled: "Aston Martin crafts planet's coolest car"

"The DB9 is such a quantum leap from the DB7 that the company skipped right over the option to name it the DB8"

"It is powered by a new tweaked version of the 6.0-liter V-12, offering 450 horsepower and 420 foot-pounds of torque..... The run-up from zero to 60 mph should only take 4.7 seconds with the manual...."

All of this for $150K (coupe, 6HP26), a bargain considering the old DB7 retailed for $235K.

All in all, pretty good reviews. There was also a line-up reviews of future releases from Merc, Audi, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Bentley, Ferrari, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Land Rover, Maserati, Maybach, Mini, Porsche, Volvo, RR, Saab and VW.

Merc's going to have even more variants in its lineup, such as CL65, SL65, and CLK55, and the stunningly beuatiful SLR. That car is gorgeous, but at sticker price north of $400K, I suppose it gotta be, lol ! I dunno if Lexus will add variations to their line-up anytime soon. They sure need more trims to make it more interesting...

merc1 · November 2003

Sounds yummy. I have to say Aston-Martin is making some of the worlds best looking, yet distinctive cars of the modern day. The Vanquish, while I'm not in the up in the air about it anymore, remains a gorgeous car. I'm amazed and yet put off by the fact I've never seen it in any other color than that drab silver/grey. I mean even in music videos it's the same dull color. Haven't seen on the road either so it's kinda fading away with me. The DB9 has the same look, but more finely detailed from what I can see in the pics. However where the real improvement has been made is in the interior, the DB9 is stunning and appears to be of much higher quality than the DB7 and more importantly the Vanquish. I was so shocked to feel how hollow the steering wheel is on the Vanquish at this years Detroit show.

The reviewer made some mistakes though. The DB7 never stickered for 237K, thats Vanquish territory. The DB7 is a 160-170K car at best.

Add Maserati to that list of stylish makers too. The Audi dealer here also owns and Maser dealership and they had a Sypder parked among the Audis today. Man what a car, so stylish and tailored! Only 97K! It had all kinds of custom options and leather wrapped this and painted that, right down to red brake calipers and interior-color-cordinated leather-wrapped roll bars. Its the kind of car that says the hell with surveys and such. Can't wait to see the Quattroporte.

"The challenge is not the product .... it will stand up to anything out there. The challenge is: Will people buy a luxury Volkswagen?"

I think they would if VW had a reputation in place for better reliability and dealer service. Even the reliability thing hasn't slowed down the Euro brands that don't top the JDP surveys, but their dealerships are in much better shape than VWs.

Mercedes-Benz is going thick on the top end. Between the CL, SL and S-Class cars and all their AMG variants and the SLR, they'll have 10 cars with about 500hp or more! Madness. One of the things I like about Mercedes is their depth of product of which no other brand has. They compete with Bentley (Continental GT), Aston-Martin (DB9), Porsche (911), with either the SL or CL and yet they compete with all the "regular" brands below. A full service brand. This is what VW wants to do, but I must say I think Audi would do better on their high-end.

M

b4z · November 2003

Just voted the VW Toureg SUV of the year over the Cadillac SRX, Lexus , etc.

motownusa · November 2003

Isn't the V-12 in Aston Martin basically two Ford V6 joined at the crankshaft?

michael_mattox · November 2003

Actually a poor old retiree like myself can own a Lexus with a few miles on it. Electrical problems can happen in ANY car but that is not the issue, the issue is which car is it MOST likely to occure in.

There is no debate which car is Most likely to be relatively trouble free and which is almost guaranteed to have problems.

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