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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    I'm curious, were there any brochures available on the Phaeton?

    I've mentioned before my girlfriend's terrible experiences at two different VW dealers back when she owned a Passat. So I agree with you, regardless of how good the car I can't see too many people spending that kind of money only to have a poor ownership experience.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think it will fail here too.

    Dealership experience is surely a factor, but isn't brand image or badging just as or even more important? How many $70k-range buyers want to show off a VW badge?

    MB launched a new brand to address the $300k market. Toyota in 1990 launched a new brand, and Nissan did too. Wouldn't the LS and Q have sold much less well had they been badged as Toyota and Nissan cars?

    I remember when the Mazda Millenia came out, originally the plan had been to launch a new upscale brand, but in the end Mazda had to scrap that plan because they couldn't afford it. Sure didn't help sales of the Millenia.
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    ...doesn't VW already have an upscale division called Audi?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Yes, you're right of course. Makes one wonder why VW introduced the Phaeton at all (anywhere worldwide).
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
  • tasillotasillo Member Posts: 51
    WOW!!! The U.S. economy must really be picking up steam. Volkswagen has now re-defined the peoples (luxury) car as costing between $66k and 92k! Can anyone honestly believe that VW, with it's not too distant checkered reputation is the US (remember the Rabbit's built in Pennsylvania?) can successfully market to and satisfy the aduience that spends 60-90k on an automobile? The Passat at 25-29k is a great car and competes favorable with the Accord, Camry and assorted other bread and butter models available in the family sedan range. Now however, they're taking on Mercedes, BMW, Lexus and cousin Audi. All without the stand alone dealer facility and customer care those makes have built into their marketing strategy. I don't get it.

    I cannot imagine the absolute bath the (few) owners of Phaeton's will take at trade in time. Good luck, VW!
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    ....VW were so excited about the Passat W8 selling beyond their expectations, that they decided to move even more upmarket.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    In this country, imho few people outside of VW employees and VW dealership owners are going to buy one.
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    of course is that the whole business plan/model put out by VW stinks, even by their lowly standards. VW had problems explaining or justifying this plan to their home base, much less the lucrative US market. The Phaeton is a dud, plain and simple ! At least the Audi had much more upscale brand image with the beautiful A4s and TTs (my daughter wants a TT so badly; its her dream car), A6s, a bevy of S4/S6/S8 and RS8. Despite these, the A8 has been, by lux car standards, a dud in the US market. So what does VW have to support the Phaeton ? Passats and Jetta's (the BUG is now gone, hopefully permanently)..... I suppose the $25K Passat owner looking to move upscale will look to a, YES, a $66K V8 VW and forgo the likes of Mercedes, Infiniti, BMW, Lexus, Jaguar, Cadillac, etc.. How much is the A6 4.2 Quattro again ? $50K-ish, and a VW is listed at $66K ? Yikes !!!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    If you're still around, what do you say to this:
     nvbanker "Lexus VP of Marketing says, "emulate BMW"" Nov 17, 2003 7:38pm
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "If you had - say $40k - to plunk down on a car today what would you buy or lease?"

    Good question since 40K is about 5K or so above what I can really spend next time around. I'm not sure. Right now the choices would be a C320 Sport (05' model w/changes), A4 3.0, G35 Coupe, Acura TL, and Saab 9/3 Aero (shocked?)....pretty much in that order.

    Why these? Well being a big Mercedes-Benz fan I have to consider whatever Mercedes has in the class. Right now the C-Class is in desperate need of a interior facelift. If I had to buy a car right this minute it would NOT be a new C-Class. I can't stand the seats, having to purchase the Comand system to get a in-dash CD, and the overall interior look. I spoke to a couple of MB reps at the Detroit autoshow this past year and they said that these things would be corrected on the 2005 model, and sure enough its been all but confirmed. Question for me is whether or not the freshened car gets here in the spring or next fall.

    The only issue I have with the A4 is the ugly, unpainted lower section Audi has forced on the A4 Sedan, curiously enough the A4 Cabriolet is painted all the way down. I don't know if you've noticed the A4 on the road, but this shade of grey that all their lowers are painted in doesn't match anything. Yuck. There was a strong rumor for 2004 that this would be corrected, a very, very close inspection of my Audi dealers entire lot of A4s (20 or so) says that they haven't corrected this most unsightly detail.

    What can I say about the G35 Coupe? Driving it almost makes you forget the cheap interior and that rather thickish looking rear bumper. A strong contender for my money.

    The Acura TL is a little contrived, inside and out. It seems they've over compensated for years of bland looking, forgettable cars, by trying to give the new TL too many design cues from other cars. That "character" line down the side is most out of place. The interior, which knocks the G35 on it's behind as far as quality of materials/assembly goes, is too busy with aluminum and fake wood all competing for attention. They missed the Audi target by a good mile. You should check out the stereo though, its a first...a DVD based system. Even a Mark Levinson devotee might be impressed.

    The Saab would be just different purchase, it too like the G35 was a real hoot to drive. Don't know if I want another turbo I4 though, and the interior takes some getting used too, you know Swedish design/ergonomics.

    Another shocker: I don't want a BMW!

    lenscap,

    No brochures or anything, just the handing out of cards with the "Phaeton Specialist's" name on it. No luxury car sales tact at all.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    My 2001 LS430 has a $37k buyout. I think that is the best car for you.

    On the serious side I think the TL and G35 would be great cars for you despite the Japanese origin. They are fresh. The C-class is tired looking and it's too small in size to fit the grill and tail lights that were really designed for and work beautifully on the S-class. I really thought Lexus would get the first DVD audio player into a car. Hats off to Acura for it. I know a few people who had Saabs and they regretted it so be careful there.

    What is the problem with BMW? I thought you loved them.

    Also - why not a three year old off-lease car. Most 3 year old lux cars are better than anything new.
  • dev282938dev282938 Member Posts: 5
    u get a s class for the presidential image, and with everything even a s430 costs 87K, so yes its expensive, but the seats are like first class, and do not tire you out on long trips, everything inside is rich looking and large and open. the rear is like a limo, you can cross your legs even.
    the lexus 430 new model is a good copy of the mb. it does have nice wood and soft leather and a nicer nav with touch screen, but the back seat is not the same and nor is the image. the name is totally different.

    the vw would sell if it was priced right, at about 20k less than the a8, but its not and so it will not be a big seller, i dont think they expected it to be as they make their new factory.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well we obviously differ greatly on design concerning the C-Class. I think it's one of the best looking cars in its class, especially in "Sport" trim with the bigger wheels/tires. Between the G35 Coupe and TL, I'd probably have to go with the G35. They both have about the same power, but the G35 Coupe looks so much better than the TL. If only the G35C had a better interior.

    Something about BMW's new choice of direction in styling has turned me off to the whole brand. That combined with not wanting a new 3-Series (the last good looking one left) have ruled BMW out for me. It used to be Mercedes, BMW and Audi in my book. Now it's Mercedes, Audi, with BMW a distant third. Can't explain it, just don't want one now.

    Though we disagree on some things your advice is always appreciated. Wouldn't you know it the only used Euro cars I would want are either too expensive (CLK430) or are a little too troublesome for even me to buy....would love a 2001, or 2002 Audi A6 4.2. Still debating that one.

    M
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    I bought a Hugo Boss winter coat, knew I had to have it the minute I tried it on. It retailed close to one grand, I bought it on sale, didn't pay anything close to that price. After wearing it for about five days, the cheap zipper doesn't work anymore. Luckily I can still wear it because of the buttons. But come on, for that price, they use a zipper that Kmart would be ashamed to use!

    Makes me think other German upscale companies also face market pressure and cut corners.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Once I was talking with a US company that had a German operation, and they said that they were issued a summons by the police because they had someone working at the office after 5:30pm...I guess that was illegal because you can't have your workers work too hard or too long hours in Germany. With that kind of worker productivity, yes maybe they have to cut corners elsewhere to compete with Chinese factories.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Most of Europe is that way. On a Friday the beer starts coming out around 3:30. Everyone is gone by 4:30. It's hard to find people at the exec level around in August at any time. Remember also stores are closed on Sundays. Most people get 5-10 weeks vacation per year. You also don't worry much about getting fired. Different culture and work ethic than America.

    Contrast all that with Japanese that are shoved onto subway cars and work till they drop. Europe is lax, America is efficient and a bit crazy and the Japanese are totally gone. There is more to life than work.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Having said that, I know that the Japanese admire German cars. There's a Japanese grocery store nearby that I visit, usually just to look at the auto mags. There are several glossy thick mags that are seemingly devoted exclusively to Italian and German cars.

    In this country, we may see Lexus and Infiniti as coming close to MB & BMW, and superior to them in some ways. But I doubt if people in Japan will feel that way, even when they get a chance to drive Lexus and Infiniti in the future.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Why not a three year old 5 series or E320? I'd prefer either over the Audi and I still think the old E is a classic looking car.
  • bluestar1bluestar1 Member Posts: 112
    a 3-yr old Merc if out of warranty may cost more to maintain than, say, a new G35C with full warranty, all for about the same price. You can really overlook the less than stellar interior of the G35C, and enjoy the ride. It is truly a great riding and handling sports coupe. A true hit from Infiniti. It's just that the name just doesn't resonate as much as a BMW or MB, but you really don't lose anything in ownership. Nissan/Infiniti is one understated brand, or that diamond in the rough, imo. A few left turns does not really detract from the bright stars in the den.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I driven the E-Class enough, there are two family members with E's. The 5-Series is thought I guess. I guess I really want the fat fendered A6 4.2.

    M
  • tasillotasillo Member Posts: 51
    Merc1

    Couldn't agree with you more about the A6 4.2 I looked at a used 2003 with 14k miles, black on black with aftermarket 18 inch wheels. It was spectacular! Not the room of my 7, but plenty for 4. Unfortunately, Audi's reputation for big mechanical issues puts me off. Also, for some reason this car was not a certified car, despite being at an Audi dealer. Just the remainder of 4yr/50k miles under warranty. I will say however that a quick drive and those flared fenders have really got me thinking...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes, even I the survey detractor have to look at the Audi sideways, only because my own personal observations haven't been good concerning the V8 drivetrain in the A6 4.2 and the previous A8 with the same engine. They are known for drop their transmission from time to time, especially the A8. A friend of mine was looking at a 1998 C280 at a Audi dealership, but Audi couldn't sell him the car because the person who traded the C280 in for a 2000 A8 had a trans failure a day after he drove off in the A8. It seems Audi was giving him static about fixing the trans so he began to raise hell about getting his old car back. Not sure what the outcome of this was. A 2000 A8 is in my price range, but oh no. That and insurance (aluminum car) would be too much for me. I wouldn't go near an Audi with "Audi Certified" being stamped all over the windshield (lol). It's a gorgeous car though and if I go "pre-driven" as they like to say now, it's my first pick.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Is it me or has Autospies run completely out of gas? Like always their reporting is full or errors and in this case way too much repetition. This is about the most ridiculous "report" I've seen from them yet in the fact that some of it true and part of it is pure fantasy. P.S. The Frankfurt autoshow is in Sept of 2005, hardly early in the year.

    http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000203773.cfm

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think of them as the National Enquirer of the autorag business. Their motto should be "don't let the facts get in the way".
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think autospies is quilty of more than just errors and repitition. I think they KNOWINGLY publish fabricated stories in order to generate more readership. For example, their "scoop" of about 9-12 months ago that the 2004 LS would involve a fairly radical "total exterior redesign". The story was complete with drawings (actually of an MB concept they said the LS would resemble) and the claim that they got the story from a west coast "meeting of lexus sales managers". Utter hogwash. Then they published pictures, maybe 6-12 month ago, of the next gen S...I thought it so closely resembled the current S that it couldn't possibly be what they claimed it was.
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I had a 2001 Black/Melange. It was a beautiful car, but required too many visits to the shop during the months that I owned it. I bought it used. The previous owner smoked. I could never quite get rid of the smell during hot weather. I even bought my own ozone machine!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I know right. They are really something. It wouldn't be such rubbish if they said they're guessing, but they try to pass that mess off as fact and that they have type of corporate spy working at Lexus, MB and others. Most of accurate info they like to report as a Autospies "exclusive" is usually reported in real publications like AutoWeek and Automotive News weeks earlier!!

    I wouldn't even care if so many people didn't take them seriously. You'd be amazed how many people actually believe their "scoop" stories.

    M
  • blockislandguyblockislandguy Member Posts: 336
    Merc1, is insurance costs really an issue with aluminium bodied cars? If you're right, this should hurt the new Jag??

    Did I read you correctly that despite your hots for a fat fendered A6 if it WAS Audi Certified you would avoid it? So, that leaves you turning to Ebay and cars.com?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    About insurance, yes and no. For someone around my age, a car like an A8 would be costly to insure anyway, but being constructed of aluminum wouldn't help matters. Now the target group for cars like the XJ and A8, Donfenn, ljfix and others have those much deeper pockets....

    No I meant I would buy an A6 4.2 only if was certified.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Porsche seems to be having a hard time selling the Cayenne around here. At Ray Catena (who sells Lexus, MB,Jag, Porsche,Infiniti and exotics) I can get a $60K Cayenne for $75 a month cheaper than a $53k GX470. Plus I can do it for only 27 months. So out of curiosity I took it out even though it doesn't fit the needs I have. I found it very disppointing - noisy, bumpy and not very luxurious - so maybe that is why it is being discounted. But it does handle well but who needs or wants that in an SUV. The sales guy told me the interest in the SUV has fallen off quickly - in our area at least. I told him I much preferred a Lexus GX470 or LX 470. He said as long as I was buying from Ray Catena he couldn't argue with me.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    By the way I also drove a Boxster for the first time. It's my 12 year old son's dream car so I took it out for a spin with him. Loved it. Porsche should stick to what it does best - sports cars.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I could have told you that you wouldn't like a Cayenne. In all sincerity, anyone that likes Lexus' SUVs, meaning ultra quiet and isolated, isn't going to like any Porsche Cayenne. The Porsche Cayenne, specifically the Turbo is the best performing SUV in the world on-road, and its in the same class as the TLC/LX, RR, G-Wagen, and Hummer in off-road prowess, so of course some might view it as extremely compromised, others will see it as extremely versatile. My only question is did you drive the S or the Turbo, I know that the air suspension makes a big difference in ride, if the Touareg (which I have driven) is anything to go by.

    Plus you know how I feel about SUVs, they usually don't hold my attention more than one model year. I loved the X5 when I first saw it at the Chicago autoshow, couldn't care any less about it now. SUVs just aren't my game. Now a Porsche 911 C4S Cabrio, you'd have to put out a A.P.B. to find it after a letting it go on a test drive with me!!!!

    So let me guess, a 04' LS, and a 04 GX right??

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    It was the S and it stickered around $61k. I could get it at $515 per month with $4k down or $699 per month with 0 down - both for 27 months. I'm at a loss to explain Edmunds TMV pricing on this as they say it sells at MSRP. The $53k GX470 goes for $735 per month with zero down and a 58% residusl after 3 years. Either Porsche has the most creative leasing plans on the planet to preserve MSRP pricing or Edmunds has it wrong. In fact when I added up the down payment, lease payments and buyout I was a tad under MSRP without interest effecting anything. Put a present value stream on those future payments even at a low discount rate and I was well under MSRP. The residual on the Porsche was 70% after 27 months so that's just about in-line with the GX470. Finance is my gig but I don't get this one. I didn't realize the Cayenne had that level of off road prowess.

    For me - the LS is a certainty. The car is better than ever - tighter than the 2001 base suspension but rides even more silky smooth. The 2004 Euro is also a better handler than the 2001 version. I want to get the Euro though and that is not easy to come by. Lexus is pushing the modern lux package (with or without Euro which is now actually called Sport) or the ultra and doing away with the custom lux per my dealer. If I miss the sport I'll likely go to the ultra lux but that is not till April anyway.

    I still prefer the LX470 over the GX470 - simply for size and I prefer the LX styling though the GX does ride better. The LX puts the bumps away better but on a highway the GX is the creamier ride. But when you are married you have to make compromises and my wife loves the GX. The alternativve is that I can get the LX but have to get her an RX. No dice on that one. I have my eyes on the SL based on my personal business developments in a year or so - as the toy car - not an RX330.

    Now about that Boxster. If I'm a single guy like you and don't have to drive every day that's the car I'd save for. Yes its noisy and not the best riding but it is pure sports car, lots of fun and brings me back to my single days. Cars like the SL and SC don't do that. They are too mature/grown-up. But the Boxster has to be a weekend/leisure car. I wouldn't want it in a rush hour rain or snowstorm.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    My dealer is telling me Lexus has gone to almost all Ultra to catch up with the demand for that model.

    Also said Custom Luxury is Very hard to come by...It is the model that suites my needs if I am to upgrade.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That sounds like a hell of a deal on a Cayenne. I know you're going to go for the LX470, but I'd drive a Cayenne Turbo just because, since you have such a good relationship with the dealership. Yep the Cayenne is the swiss army knife of the SUV world.

    If you were to buy a SL500 I don't know what I'd do!! Did you ever check out the CL? The CL is Mercedes' best all around car in my opinion. Timeless style and just the right amount of space for two.

    Strangely, for some reason I've never like the Boxster. I'm ready for a luxury car, no more pounding, stiff-riding cars for me, at least for a while. Entry-level or a pre-driven mid-level luxury car, is where I'm headed. Either that or a classic "GT" car like the G35 Coupe.

    In other news, the uber-Audi has arrived:

    http://www.germancarfans.com/News.cfm/NewsID/2031125.001/audi/1.h- tml

    M
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    I wonder what the extra weight of the W 12 will do to the ride quality on that car?
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    What did Audi do, kidnap Bangle from BMW and have him apply his weird sense of styling humor to the front of a car?

    That big chrome gaping surround gives the new Audi a very familiar look - like a new Kia Amanti.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    Actually it is a Auto Union look from the 30's race cars.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    No I haven't checked out the CL but I will. By the way it was fun driving stick shift again.

    The deal on the Cayenne is pretty standard around here from what I was made to understand. I've only seen one or two on the road. It's just not selling well here as there were plenty of them on the lot and more due in. Contrast that with trying to find a GX470 which is not easy. On the other hand the LX is negotiable. I had my pick of color on the Cayenne. I went to the dealership mainly because my son is nuts about the Boxster and I must admit that car intrigues me as well. There are several that I see at local sports events.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    In New Jersey the LS is selling quickly. The Ultra is not easy to get nor is the sport suspension. I may actually have to order the car in early January to get it by April the way I want it. The custom lux is a custom order car and you may have a long wait for it. I was told they will likely discontinue it pretty soon. But they are increasing production on the Ultra because demand is high despite a $71k price tag.
  • jrasskuljrasskul Member Posts: 11
    I went for the Euro sport suspension and the mod luxury package and had to order the car. Added to the above, since there aren't many sport models being produced, according the the dealers, I wanted the Briarwood Pearl. There's also very few of them.

    I ordered at the beginning of this month and it should arrive at the end of Jan to mid Feb.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    A8 - that may explain why some have felt the harsh ride and others have not.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    i just assumed the poor ride quality(relatively speaking) was due to the extra weight of the AWD.
    Didn't know there was a suspension part issue.

    What about the quivering body structure?
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    For those that are interested, I spoke with a VW salesman last night to see if they had any Phaeton brochures. I am not in the market for a car right now and have no interest in ever buying a Phaeton (plus it is beyond my price range anyway), but I am curious to read about the car. Anyway, the salesman said only 270 V12-equipped cars will come to the US and all will be black with a beige interior. You can only select color on the V8.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    I couldn't find any from the 30's that looked like the big square on the nose of the A8.

    The Type D that competed against MB circa 1935 - 1939 or so has a distinctly triangular or arrowhead shaped grille.

    But hey, in this forum, one man's triangle is another's square.
  • pathdocpathdoc Member Posts: 126
    The decision to only import black V12's will certainly help their sales in areas like where I live (Palm Springs,Ca). We have more Rolls,Mercedes,BMWs,etc. than most places but almost no one would buy a black car here because of the heat and dust(sand) issues. Another great move by Volkswagen.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    VW is really just half doing things with this car. An 88K luxury sedan that only comes in Black?? Thats ridiculous.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_031120_coy/in- - dex.html

    ...lets see if Lexus RX400H gets SUV of the year next year.
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