High End Luxury Cars

syswei · December 2003

My personal opinion here: the current LS's exterior borrows heavily from the last-gen S. But I think that's about it as far as big-time "copying" goes. The IS, ES, GS, SC, RX, GX, LX may not be pretty, but they aren't "copies", imho.

footie · December 2003

The November sales report shows Lexus in a clear lead to win out over BMW again this year as the leader in U.S. luxury vehicle sales.

MB is a distant 3rd only a few cars ahead of resurgent Cadillac.

Do you think Cadillac will catch MB this year or next? It's pretty clear MB is never likely to be the leader in the U.S. again.

syswei · December 2003

That's a pretty strong statement re MB. If they improve quality or lower their prices, they could well be number 1 someday.

footie · December 2003

IMHO they are still struggling with quality and don't have the financial flexibility to do the latter - MB profits are what is keeping DCX's head above water.

They've been on a slide for 10 years and there's no signs that it's turning the right way. They'll have to bottom and refocus on real value in a niche to be competitive enough to regain share.

I could be wrong. IBM made a big turnaround from what seemed like an irresversible decline.

I think tht BMW is where they are because they were an 'Apple of the Car Industry'..upscale, highly styled and with a powerful user interface oriented towards driving. Unfortunately between i-drive and the ugly butts they gone DOS and FridayNight Freddy.

Maybe MB will end up the leader in the jewelry end of the market like Rolex is. So-so timepiece, great jewelry.

footie · December 2003

Good point max!

I wonder though, if MB was really serioius about the lux title here, why couldn't they compete against Cadillac in that market?

It's certainly the case that the lower trim level MBs sold all over Europe as taxi cabs would help them be cost competitive here, then all of the rest of the things that Mercedes a better car in every imagineable way would be a compelling sale.

Wouldn't it?

b4z · December 2003

Cadillac has really lowered the number of Devilles sold to fleets.
They did this over two years ago, that's why you see the decline from 2001-2002 but a smaller decline from 2002-2003.

Can't believe you guys.
Cadillac is about to have it's best year since 1994 and you are already dissing them.
They are about to overtake MB and you guys are already put a spin on why it is happening.

No respect, I tell ya'.

LOL.

Oh yeah, and we can certainly take out Deville's fleet sales if BMW takes out Mini sales.

HAH!

michael_mattox · December 2003

It is just my opinion that We have made some silly comments on this board in order to make one point or another...(myself certainly included....)

It does seem however that car companies are in the business of selling cars and I don't think it matters to them who they sell them to. The more cars they sell the more money they make and the more people that are introduced to their product the brighter the companies future.

I will guarantee you that if Mercedes could sell taxi's in this country they would...(they sell lots of them in other countries) They sell cars to Armys for use by generals in other countries. They would crack the rental market if they could and of course they make fleet sales when they can.

Bottom line a once great car company has lost it's way, they are over priced, have declining sales and are establishing a rep. for a less then reliable product....They don't offer the luxury or ride of a Lexus or the handling and driving fun of a BMW. They are stuck in the middle.

They will eventually find their way back..

bluestar1 · December 2003

"Bottom line a once great car company has lost it's way, they are over priced, have declining sales and are establishing a rep. for a less then reliable product....They don't offer the luxury or ride of a Lexus or the handling and driving fun of a BMW. They are stuck in the middle"

Great point. Couldn't agree more !

But, MB fans should have plenty to say on this topic

Fire away, merc1 !

ljflx · December 2003

Whether that is 80% of the car or 95+% - what did you think of it?

MB sales - They still sell double what they did 8-10 years ago and they are the most expensive cars. Cutting price would hurt both image and profits (their build and distribution costs are much higher than Lexus you have to remember. Lexus sells more vehicles with less than a quarter of MB dealerships! That's efficiency) Plus they made a pretty big cut in prices already from the last gen cars particularly on the S-class. But it is still a helluva brand and many aspire to it. I doubt they are declining but as the market expands they are definitely getting a smaller slice of the expansion pie than Lexus and BMW are getting. I do think BMW's poor designs will hurt them a lot in the next few years though and you will see Lexus and MB gain at their expense. BMW better be very careful with that 3 series restyle. The C-class will rout it.

michael_mattox · December 2003

I do not like the styling of the new BMW but that is something that will be quickly changed as sales fall off.

I think Mecerdes (a car I and probably most of us once aspired to) will take a very long time to fix their problems. You are right They can't cut costs and the failing reputation of their products quality can not changed in a year or two...IMHO, It is currently getting worse not better.

merc1 · December 2003

It simply amazes me how sales are one minute the proof that a car company is finished and the next they don't mean anything. Now, at this very moment Mercedes-Benz has lost it's way because they are not selling as many cars as Lexus, BMW and Cadillac is closing in. There always seemed to be one business minded person in here to understand that Mercedes' sticker prices alone shouldn't have ever allowed them to compete in the sales race. That remains the case I see. Gee, I wonder why Maybach can't outsell Bentley and Ferrari can't outsell Porsche, price shouldn't keep this from happening, it's the cars that aren't up to snuff. Lets not pay any attention to the fact that Lexus' sales dominance over BMW and everyone else is based solely on SUV sales, not their supposed to be oh-so great cars. Yet nobody can see that the IS, GS and even the LS have either fallen in the last year (LS), or never sold good period, GS and IS. Nevermind that Mercedes' competing models either sell at the same rate S vs LS, or better, E vs GS, C vs IS, while costing thousands more. It is written nowhere else than in the Lexus handbook about sales equal the best. Interestingly enough the same problem exists at work with management, crunching numbers until they are silly. No reguard or thought about anything else.

Yep, a 6 percent drop in one month after years and years sales records surely spells the end.

Now Mercedes will resort to selling taxis and turn to fleet sales to make up the difference.

Even Mercedes' traditional market position between a BMW and whatever softer-riding cars that have always existed before Lexus is seen as being "stuck". Amazingly this has worked for years and years all over the world, with BMW now having stated their goal is to become more diverse and offer more product to reach their mainl goal of outselling Mercedes worldwide by 2008, yet Mercedes is stuck in the middle. Again this is only in the Lexus handbook of market rules which are dictated by whatever sales numbers are posted in a given month, lets ignore everything else.

Quality control problems with specific components can't be changed in short order with changes at the supplier level, production line, or facelifts to current products, because these things are too expensive, but a styling direction can be changed in short order with what I guess is a cheaper task, a total redesign of cars that have just been introduced. Makes perfect sense to me.

Let me set the scene early, this same crowd will surely cry foul next couple of years, when and if the 1-Series and X3 allow BMW to pass Lexus in sales. They'll say that the 1-Series and X3 aren't "luxury vehicles". This same group can't even acknowledge that the Lexus sales juggernaught is being fueled by 1 car (ES300) and two SUVs (RX, GX), yet none of them claim that Lexus is finished despite not being able to give away the IS, GS models.

I've haven't read so much nonsense in quite a while, at least on this board.

Here's in interesting concept that will surely be shot down in minutes after this posting. Since we're dealing in future predictions of gloom and doom. Here's a nice "what if" scenarios. What if Mercedes had 3 SUVs to equal Lexus'? Going by the two brands sales relationship in cars, Mercedes' SUVs would sell just as well or better than Lexus', but lets not even think about anything like that because it wouldn't fit in with the current hysteria.

ljflx,

Well honestly its a very sleek concept, but it doesn't do anything for me. It doesn't have any surface details or anything, it just a sleek blob to me. That said, I'll wait for the real car, which should have some more detail to it.

M

b4z · December 2003

I just want to go on record here and give MB it's due.

The current problems seem to be related to the hyper advanced electrical systems that MB has decided they want to be a leader in.

Not the powertrains and body.

The areas where they are having problems seem to be afflicting the German auto industry as a whole.

footie · December 2003

I assume that the 'Hyper Advanced' is tongue-in-cheek right? As in wink, wink!

ljflx · December 2003

I will bet that the 1-series and X3 will be flops in the US and could drag down the nameplatess very badly. At those price points consumers are seeking value not a luxury brand. Nor will consumers buy a luxury brand that fails to deliver real luxury though there will be some that are fooled initially. But it will be the equivalent of buying a fake fur coat. There is an elasticity of pricing (particularly in the US) that a luxury brand should not go below. Those cars will break that threshhold. It's not a bad decision to build the cars but it will be a bad decision to market them here.

lenscap · December 2003

I finally received my Car & Driver over the weekend and it had a harsh review of the BMW X3. Their main complaint centers on the horrible ride (sounds as bad as the Infiniti FX45). And in order to rush this thing to market it is not even being made by BMW, but by a third party in a factory in Austria. C&D also had complaints about the new 5 Series, questioning not only its styling but some of the electronics since they ruin the pure driving experience.

Yet, despite these issues there will always be people who buy these cars simply because they say "BMW."

syswei · December 2003

You wrote "Lexus' sales dominance over BMW and everyone else is based solely on SUV sales....What if Mercedes had 3 SUVs to equal Lexus"

Look at the numbers, 2003 YTD through September (per Autosite.com):

RX 66,015
GX 21,846
LX 6,023
total Lexus 93,884

ML 21,942
G 1,361
total MB 23,303

So what it MB had 3 SUVs instead of 2? Right now, Lexus outsells MB by 4x while offering 1.5x the number of models (and 1.0x the number of variants, since the ML comes in a 350 and 500, and not counting the ML55 and G55).

It is the vehicles that "aren't up to snuff", to use your words.

You ask "What if Mercedes had 3 SUVs to equal Lexus". And I ask: What if Lexus had as many CAR models as MB does? Lexus has 5 car lines, IS, ES, GS, LS, SC, while MB has 7 lines, C, E, S, CLK, CL, SLK, SL. Lexus has 7 variants of those 5 lines, while MB has 25 variants of its 7 lines (not counting AMG models).

But in reality, we don't have to play "what if" games. Customers have voted with their wallets, and Lexus, despite the lack of heritage and lesser prestige, has come out ahead in the REAL market.

syswei · December 2003

Not predicting that it WILL happen, but I still think it could be done without hurting the brand. Didn't MB have 10-15% across-the-board price cuts in 93 or so? Didn't seem to hurt the brand.

michael_mattox · December 2003

When you get a chance to drive the LS430, drive the Ultra edition (the $71,000 model) I think you will be surprised how much road feel there is when you put the car into the stiffer mode, you will also be surprised how fantastic the ride is.

footie · December 2003

Just some speculative thinking about how modern systems technology and software enables engineers to reproduce feel and experience:

Re the Lexus sport ride, I think the general trend to provide multiple ride settings is the harbinger of what I think of as Dial-A-Ride, followed by Road and Location aware Suspension settings.

GM's new rheological shock absorber system ( ferroelectric damping ) is adjustable in real-time by Digital Signal Processor technology to provide not only instantaneous response to the 'bumps' encountered, but also the style of the ride in jounce/rebound dynamics.

Since the 'feel' is in software, you can imagine a Dial-A-Ride option in the future. Like BMW for this stretch, hey dial-in a 540i, E320 for this piece, Dial-it-in, Lex for super smooth cruise during the hour long conference call, Dial-it-in.

I wouldn't think that BMW will program in MB nor MB BMW. It will be too hard for them to let go of their 'unique' feel.

Since this is largely electronics based and a such differentiator, I think I know who might. They'll get it right. Imagine copying the 'feel' and driving response. I can hear the howls from Germany now "voo cannot do dat!"

Then the GPS integration will occur and the RDS radio pickup info on road conditions. You can tell it what you want, ask for suggestions, or just let it do the right thing.

ljflx · December 2003

The "what if" scenario on MB having 3 SUV's is a silly one. If they thought they could beat or compete well with the RX330 they would have done so by now. This is a weak spot in their armor and is partly a function of not having good platforms to build off of.

I know a bunch of RX owners around here and they think of it as more of a car than a truck. Count it however you like but it's not truly in the LX, GX suv family. It's more of an elevated luxury sedan to me. If I bought one I'd still need an SUV. That's my personal judgment point and serves what the determining factor on what the RX330 is to me.

Syswei - We ended up with about 20" of snow down here in central NJ. I never saw it snow as heavily as it did on Saturday afternoon for about 3-4 hours. More than a foot fell in that timespan.

syswei · December 2003

We had maybe 10", I was disappointed. It was interesting how badly traffic got snarled Friday afternoon...my office is on a main road and it was crawling, with ambulances having a real tough time getting through. Our receptionist took 2.5 hours to get home...normally it would be 20-25 min. I left later, 6pm, and it was ok by then, plus I live closer.

sysadb · December 2003

You are correct. MB did reduce the price of some models. At one point an SL500 (early 90's) well-equipped would MSRP for about $105k. They reduced that car by almost $20k. And a few years back MB reduced prices slightly while attempting to hold to a fixed-price strategy in the showroom. The invoice costs to dealers did not decrease, so the net effect, even now, is that MBs do not have the markup margins they used to. In general, all the luxury marques have attempted to hold the line on increasing MSRPs for the obvious competitive/marketing advantages.

But... a reduced or stagnant MSRP price doesn't mean too much if the cost to the dealers (factory invoice) increases. The price reductions 10 years ago were accompanied by cost reductions as well.

DB

f1buick · December 2003

Great idea, but all the electronics in the world will not alter certain fundamental physical factors, such as the roll center, the center of gravity, and the polar moment of inertia. Just as one cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear, one cannot make a top heavy, front-heavy SUV handle like a BMW 530 with 50/50 weight distribution.

And how would the electronics compensate for something like a lack of rigidity in the chassis, brought about by something like a missing B pillar?

At best, the electronics will allow one to alter parameters WITHIN THE DESIGN ENVELOPE AND LIMITATIONS OF THE PARTICULAR CAR.

Another factor will be cost. Cadillac probably spent big $$ and massive amounts of time taking the CTS to the Nurbergring and tuning it like BMW does. Do you really think some engineer in a lab in Japan can simulate this data? I don't. A manufacturer will not really want to go to all the trouble of studying and accurately modeling the characteristics of each car the "dial a ride" is supposed to emulate, even if the vehicles fundamental dynamics made that possible.

Anyway, it was a great thought . . .

merc1 · December 2003

I knew I was right about 2 things, the SUV "what if" and the BMW X3 and 1-Series. BMW's new models will fail because they can't be allowed to add to BMWs sales totals, thus giving them a chance to pass Lexus. That said, you know how I feel about SUVs, so the X3 is of no mention, but you're forgetting that SUVs are as hot as nickel beer and the X3 I'm betting will sell like such. How can you say the 1-Series will fail when nobody even knows anything official about the car yet, other than speculation.

Here is what seperates the thinking in here. Lexus is about luxury first, combined with great stereos and nav systems, all wrapped in leather and wood. Thats the way most Lexus fans will look at every automobile, but that isn't the only formula that works, obviously. BMW is about driving first and foremost. If the 1-Series is constructed of quality materials like all other BMWs and provides that driving feel and performs like a BMW should, the car will be a hit because it will open the doors of BMW ownership to a whole new group of less-monied drivers.

Lexus supporters always say that Lexus has no intentions of offering a car for less than 30K, but the reality of it is that they can't because of already fairly luxurious Toyota models like the Avalon and Camry XLE V6, both of which already crowd around the ES330's base price. Saying they don't intend to isn't as true as saying they really can't.

Now for the SUV "what if" component. I knew it would be deemed "silly" amoung other things. I, after freely admitting that the ML is no competiton for Lexus' clear-cut dominance of the luxury suv market, merely suggested that if Mercedes had 3 SUVs that were of worth competition that they might sell much better than the (no contest) ML does.

ljflx, as far as Mercedes competiting with the RX300, the ML was actually first to the market, but they misjudged what the next trend would be, which as you state correctly is a car-based, tall car like vehicle now dubbed the "crossover". The ML is built like a tradition SUV where the RX is built more like a car, and the RX concept is what is preferred, no arguement from me there. Where you are wrong is the assumption that Mercedes doesn't have a decent car platform to build a RX like vehicle from. The C or E-Class chassis would be perfect for this, but what do you expect them to do, dump the ML, close down a new factory and redesign a new vehicle while throwing all the billions used for developing the ML down the drain? I know you understand that it takes time and money to react to a changing market. The upcoming R-Class (GST) is Mercedes entry into the crossover segment, though at a higher position than the RX. The ML is also switching to a car-based platform for 2005, while I doubt it will be as soft as the RX330. Yes Mercedes, like everyone else didn't see the RX success coming, score one for Lexus.

syswei,

Like all the other sales theories cast so far in here, you're ignoring price. There is no way a 90K G55 is going to every sell in any significant numbers. Lets stay current also, there is no ML55. Yes Mercedes has more car lines than Lexus, but when are you going to look at the sticker prices for all those Mercedes models you're citing as being a selling advantage over Mercedes. Doesn't the IS/ES compete with the C-Class, the GS with the E, the LS with the S, the SC with the CLK and to a lesser extent the SL? If so then that leaves the SLK and the CL as the models that Lexus truly has no answer for. At least a half-dozen "variants" of some of the MB models you listed sell for over 100K, yet you're citing them advantages when it comes to sales, come on now, do you really think a CL55, SL600 or even the E55 is the reason why Mercedes sells more cars. One minute AMG sales are the most insignificant sales numbers on the market, now they are implied to be a big reason as to why Mercedes actually sells more cars.

Ultimately, Mercedes having more cars is easily balanced out by Lexus' cars costing thousands and thousands less.

I don't have to look at all the cars Mercedes has to prove my point. When you look at the E320 and the E500 vs the GS300 and GS430, the E wins in sales, quite easliy. Forget the E55 and the E320 wagon, the former a small volume car, and the latter just having gone on sale. The E does over 5K cars a month, take away 1500 of those (even if they wagon and E55 sold that many, and they surely don't) the E still outsells the GS easily, and does so a much higher price.

The S-Class is the same way, it sells just as well or better than the LS does (its really a up/down thing here), and the S55 and S600 models only account for maybe 150 cars a month in a good month.

Using the prevailing logic in here, the amount of cars Lexus sales says they're cars are just as below-snuff Mercedes SUVs are considering how Lexus' cars sells compared to always more expensive Mercedes cars. To look at, and use sales numbers as the sole basis for coming to such a conclusion is plum-ridiculous, but that is what was implied about Mercedes yesterday on this very board, while not even looking any other facts.

You totally missed the SUV "what if". It went like this, what if Mercedes had 3 SUVs priced like and just as capable as Lexus'. I already know that the ML and G don't compare, you're only proving my point about Lexus' sales lead being based on SUVs.

My point for bringing all this up is that you and others are not looking at the total picture when drawing all these uninformed conclusions about the demise of Mercedes-Benz, based on sales data. You're right we don't have to deal in what if type reasoning, and I almost never do, only did so because of the rampant speculation going on, but you're not dealing in ALL the facts about the REAL market either.

Aren't you the one that said over and over that the SC430 doesn't compete with the SL500, XK8, 911 and the like because of it's price? Yet you're ignoring this very same thing when it comes to sales, pretending it has nothing to do it.

M

michael_mattox · December 2003

If Mercedes had 3 suvs in the same price range as Lexus they would have 3 vehicles with electrical problems and a stiff ride that the moms who drive suvs would not like. Moms want dependable, comfortable, logical and safe SUVs

You did nail my perception of the Lexus and BMW in your opening remarks. Well said.

oac3 · December 2003

Lexus_vs_MB. The last time I checked, this forum is about "High End Luxury Marques", but somehow we like to turn it into a Lexus_vs_MB or BMW. Not that it is a bad idea or anything.... just pointing out the obvious.

I am currently in Tokyo on a business trip and will be looking for as much info as I can glean on Lexus, BMW and MB plans in the home turf of Toyota. If I learn anything different than what has been printed here, I will surely post. This time, for the first time in many trips, I finally brought my camera and should be on the lookout for any nice snazzy car out here. If edmund's permits, I'll gladly post them as well. That's if I find anything interesting enough to post.

Guys, pls cool it down. None of these companies is going out of business anytime soon. MB has some issues and if they are not sidetracked by problems of the Chrysler Corp., they may sort these out soon, otherwise it may take awhile and be more painful. BMW's Chris Bangle is surely turning out very polarizing designs. And with the 7 slated for a redesing in a couple of years, the 5- might not be that far behind. Let's wait and see how the market accepts the new design of the 5-. The 3 is gonna be very interesting. If BMW is smart, they won't let Bangle touch that beautiful model. I see so many Bimmers in San Diego, I have grown to love them. Would I buy one ? Of course, but only brand new and must be on BMW warranty. Hehehehe..... Nice car, but can be a pain to fix....

syswei · December 2003

You're wrong when you assume that I ignore price. Far from it. My opinion is that MB tries to get away with high prices because of the heritage, 117-year history of innovation, and attendant prestige that its younger competitors can't match...and can't be expected to match. And I'm saying that the buying public, on balance, doesn't feel the high prices are worth it...which is why MB isn't number 1 in unit sales.

I've said before that for me, the SL500 would be "better" than the SC430, if price were not a factor. But in the real world, price IS a factor. Which is why, imho, price should ALWAYS be considered when comparing cars. I'm sure you personally feel that the S500 is "better" than the LS430. But is it, I ask, "better" when you consider the price difference?

syswei · December 2003

Your reasoning on the SUVs still baffles me. You ask, what if MB had 3 SUVs comparable to Lexus' SUVs? That would be like me asking, what if Lexus had a car comparable to the E, rather than the poor selling GS? Both are kind of silly "what ifs" if you ask me.

lenscap · December 2003

According to the latest ADAC (Germany's largest auto club) semiannual survey, German drivers rank Mercedes #32 out of 33 in terms of customer satisfaction. Further, if satisfaction with service is eliminated from overall vehicle satisfaction, Mercedes then ranks last.

It should be noted that customer satisfaction makes up only 10% of the final grades on the survey, which were not released in the article I read.

Japanese brands captured the top seven spots. Notable rankings:

#1 Toyota
#11 BMW
#14 Jaguar
#26 Audi
#31 Volkswagen
#33 Land Rover

eric312 · December 2003

Just wondering what are the loaner car policies at your dealerships. Do you get a comparable car as a loaner (5 series for 5 series) or just something that is available at the time?
Also, $75 oil change is way too much considering I can get it done for $25 or so elsewhere.

syswei · December 2003

Lexus service is a rip imho, though I think that's true of any car company. My understanding is that, at least with Lexus, if you use JiffyLube or someone like that, it will not void your warranty as long as you have receipts that the work was done.

dwongswong · December 2003

If Santa can be kind and let me win the Powerball Lottery ($76 million currently), I would buy these cars:
1) Lamborghini Gallardo
2) Aston Martin DB9
3) Audi S4
4) BMW M3
5) Range Rover HSE
6) Mercedes SL500
7) Audi A8L (until the S8 comes out)
Those are my lucky seven--a different car to drive everyday. What's yours?

merc1 · December 2003

"And I'm saying that the buying public, on balance, doesn't feel the high prices are worth it...which is why MB isn't number 1 in unit sales."

And that is wrong because there is no way a car that starts pricewise in most cases where another car tops out, like in the case of the LS430 vs the S-Class, could you ever expect to outsell the cheaper one, at least by any significant margin. (Yet Mercedes does in some cases!) In order to make such a broad sweeping rationalzation that the market doesn't think Mercedes' are worth the extra $$, you'd have to know that each and every LS430, GS, SC etc buyer can afford the equivalent S, E or SL model, yet chose to buy the cheaper Lexus. You simply can't make such an assumption.

If you can't see that Mercedes' sales are also limited by price then you're not dealing in the reality of the market. Do you expect Ferrari to sell as many cars as Porsche, they compete with each other also, but at different prices. If the Mercedes CL or SL were 30K cheaper do you think it would have an effect on sales? Of course it would, its common market sense.

If you feel that the market doesn't think Mercedes' are worth the premium then I'd like to know your reasoning as to why the S-Class sells as good or better than the LS430, the E way better than the GS ever did, the SL at about the same rate as the SC, despite the huge price differences.

It seems to me that the market does think *certain* Mercedes' are worth the premuim because despite thousands of $$$ more, as they buy these Mercedes models in the same or better numbers as the cheaper Lexuses. The reverse could be said here with these models, if these Lexus models are so good then why can't they outsell the competing, and more expensive Mercedes models. I would never say that because there are obviously other factors to consider, which you're ignoring when speaking favorably about Lexus.

The only area where Lexus kills Mercedes sales/product wise is SUVs, of which there is no argument from me, but to make such a broad statement like you made above about all of Mercedes' cars is simply not based on the facts.

The SL500 vs SC430 relationship isn't the same as the LS vs S relationship. The SC430 doesn't offer anywhere near the technology, styling, engineering or the sheer experience of the SL, to name a few things, without going into much detail. The LS430 is a whole lot more competitive with the S-Class than the SC is with the SL. The SC430 is a fine car for what it is, bascially a 2-door convertable LS430, but its no GT car.

M

merc1 · December 2003

Lucky Seven:

Mercedes SL55 AMG
Mercedes CL600 Sport
Mercedes E55 AMG
Audi RS6
Ferrari 360 Modena
Porsche Carrera GT
BMW M3 Cabrio

P.S. I need a "lucky 10" to get come close to listing all my favorite lottery cars.

M

merc1 · December 2003

"That's a pretty strong statement re MB. If they improve quality or lower their prices, they could well be number 1 someday."

This was your reply as to why Mercedes' could sell more cars, clearly in this response you mention price as a hindrance to greater sales. Of course better reliablity surely wouldn't hurt either, but even a super reliable SL500 will still cost 90K.....in short it will still be out of financial reach for more people than the SC430 is. Ditto for the S500, CL or any other high-end Benz, how you can you ignore this price gap for sales purposes, but place so much emphasis on it when the cars are compared or cross shopped is astounding. Thats a clear and true double-standard.

M

syswei · December 2003

MODEL DAYS ON LOT
Toyota Prius 6
Toyota Sienna 9
Lexus ES 330 11
Mini Cooper 11
Honda Pilot 13
Lexus RX 330 13
Honda CR-V 13
Lexus LS 430 13
Mercedes-Benz SL-Class 13
Lexus GX 470 14
Scion Xb 14
Acura TSX 14
Acura MDX 14

Source: Wall Street Journal and Power Information Network LLC, an affiliate of J.D. Power & Associates

ljflx · December 2003

Since I'm shopping the GX and LS - I wish both of them were off that list. Best deal I can get on the GX is $2k off. Most of the time they are selling them at or near sticker around here and that weekend blizzard further increased demand. At my dealer the only ones available are the ones coming in during the next few weeks. I'll deal with the LS next month only because I want the sport suspension, otherwise I'd wait to March.

By the way the big Infiniti SUV looks nice. But my wife finds the LX to be too big so that thing is out of the question.

michael_mattox · December 2003

Good reasoning...But wrong..Mercedes build a deserved reputation for quality and innovation it takes time for them to lose what took so long to build. But they are losing it.

Bottom line: they still have reasonable unit sales, but those sales are slipping relative to their competition.

motownusa · December 2003

I read on the web that there is a car called the Toyota Century that is available in Japan only. It comes with a 5.0L V12 engine. Why aren't they selling a version of that car in North America under the Lexus nameplate. A V12 powered car would really enhance Lexus' status symbol.

ljflx · December 2003

In 2001 Lexus nearly brought that V-12 to market in the LS but decided against it at the last minute. It's inevitable that you'll see a V-12 probably on the next LS design. There is also a V-10 sport car supposedly in the works.

ljflx · December 2003

Has anyone ever put Visualogic headrest monitors in their cars or suv's? I prefer the headrest monitors over the headliner ones mainly for rear view clearance. Visualogic sends you matching headrests (with 7" or 9" flush monitors imbedded) to the OEM ones and you simply take out the originals and put theirs in. They even have sun-visor monitors. I will likely put them in the GX470 and am wondering if anyone has prior experience. The cost for the complete system is only $200 more than Lexus' factory headliner option.

syswei · December 2003

Honestly, I don't see how you can interpret my comments as suggesting that I "ignore this price gap for sales purposes". You even quoted me as saying that price does matter, and that MB would sell more if it lowered prices. I certainly do see high prices as a handicap hindering MB sales.

But do you see that Lexus faces handicaps, relative to MB, in its own sales? To wit:

- lack of prestige (compared to MB)
- lack of heritage
- lack of a 117-year history of innovation
- lack of "halo" models (V12s and AMGs)
- lack of product diversity (fewer engine options, fewer coupes, fewer convertibles, no wagons)
- fewer dealerships

So yes, MB has price as a handicap, but Lexus has a whole host of its own handicaps...and manages to outsell MB in units.

syswei · December 2003

While it is true that MB is usually priced higher than the equivalent Lexus model, if you look at the ENTIRE product line, MB actually starts LOWER in price...

$26,020 C230 Kompressor Sport Coupe
$28,370 C320 Kompressor Sport Coupe
$29,210 C230 Kompressor Sport Sedan

The very lowest priced Lexus is the $29,980 IS 5-speed manual. (The ES is up at $32,350).

So MB has 3 variants that are priced lower than the very cheapest Lexus, yet looking at the sales numbers for the total lineup, still doesn't outsell Lexus.

Interesting, indeed.

blockislandguy · December 2003

Footie, nice comment about branding, MB, and Rolex: "so-so timepeaces, great jewelry". The problem with Rolex and perhaps shortly with MB is that like Izod shirts of 40 years ago, the brand has been cheapened and the "wrong" people buy them for the "wrong" reasons. High end watches have moved on, Rolexes are gauche, and why buy one when every car salesman has a knock off Presidential? (There are even web sites that compare the movements in the knock offs and rank them!) In short, the high end watch market has moved on and Rolex is less and less an aspirational brand. If Rolex were a stock traded here in the US, you would want to sell it short. My comments about Rolex apply to MB. Sure they are moving some cars because as an earlier poster claimed "they scream success" but once the underlying story gets out the brand will lose its cache. Truly successful people won't want any part of it. When the wannabes move in, there goes the neighborhood. MB (D-C)stock probably should be shorted. I think that history is full of brands that never are able to come back once the tipping point is reached. (Caddy seems to be the contemporary exception.)

merc1 · December 2003

Wrong. I'd like for you to tell me exactly what Mercedes models sales are "slipping in sales compared to the competition". Please provide some numbers for this. It surely isn't the E vs the GS, S vs LS, SL vs SC, C vs IS. Yes the ES330 does outsells the C-Class and your statement applies (factually) about Mercedes in the SUV market. Other wise such a broad generalzation: "but those sales are slipping relative to their competition." simply isn't based on anything factual.

Price not withstanding, Mercedes' cars sell very well, across the board, not just certain models like Lexus.

syswei,

" I certainly do see high prices as a handicap hindering MB sales."

Finally, that was my point. Your implication earlier was that Mercedes didn't sell better simply because the market didn't think they were worth the extra $$$, while assuming that everyone buying a competiting Lexus could afford the competing Benz model, yet chose a Lexi.

I never said Lexus wasn't without their own "handicaps". Then you still say that Lexus outsells Mercedes, again true, but long as you know why this is so. It isn't because of what you tried to imply earlier. Lexus' so called handicaps, arguably aren't anything compared to a brand like Mercedes taking the amount of bad press they've taken over the last few years. To put it in the best Lexus fashion, heritage and unaffordable AMG/V12 models don't mean much when the everyday C320 and S430s are unreliable.

"So MB has 3 variants that are priced lower than the very cheapest Lexus, yet looking at the sales numbers for the total lineup, still doesn't outsell Lexus."

Wrong. The C-Class outsells the IS300 by a huge margin. It isn't even close. Also, I'd like for you to checkout your local Benz dealers lot and tell me if you see any base cars sitting around at those prices you listed. You do realize that that "$29,999" stuff is one of the oldest get-you-in-the-showroom tricks around, Mercedes is just as guilty of using this as anybody else.

M

pat · December 2003

Could we broaden this conversation beyond the very tired Lexus vs. Mercedes arguments? Is it possible to talk about the attributes (and/or shortcomings) of either one without measuring them specifically against the other?

footie · December 2003

Herb Chambers has 71 C-Class cars on his lot.

Edmund's TMV for the Kompressor base unit is $24,767.

23 are the little MB goofy coupes. None at $28K, but I think 10 $32 and under though.

I think the problem with the C class is that its not much car for the money.

The coupe is smaller than a Corolla, Hyundai Tiburon or Acura RSX, yet it weighs 300 lbs more than the heaviest of those at a not too sporty 3250 lbs. It has a whopping 9.9 cut foot trunk compared the RSX at 19.3

This is what you get when you cut the butt off of a C Class sedan.

Of course, one of the problems with the C-Class in general, is that the even the sedan is smaller than a Toyota Corolla and costs about twice as much. Duh?

michael_mattox · December 2003

Why do I believe that hidden behind that closed and locked garage door at your home is a beautiful ES 430? (Black on Black and you drive it only at night)

Perhaps because "me thinks that you protest too much."

If you take the time to drive an LS 430 someday, you will understand.

syswei · December 2003

1. You can call MB's poor reliability a "handicap" if you want. I call it a product deficiency. Lexus can't do much about the handicap we call lack of heritage (other than allow time, and lots of it, to pass)...whereas MB can and obviously should do something to fix its reliability issues.

2. You wrote, "The C-Class outsells the IS300 by a huge margin."...and while that is factually true, it misses the point of my post 3682. The point is (as I tried to indicate with wording like "the ENTIRE product line" and "the total lineup") that the totality of MB's line (all cars, all SUVs) starts at a lower price point than Lexus. Yet MB total vehicle sales still trail Lexus'. Since the C starts 13% lower in price than the cheapest Lexus, it makes it harder for you to argue that MB trails Lexus in vehicle sales because of too-high pricing.

BTW, even if you want to interpret my original post as pertaining only to the C, not MBs entire line, for some reason you chose to compare sales of the entire C-Class to the IS alone, conveniently leaving out the ES. Now, the C ranges from $26,020 to $37,630 (not counting the C32 AMG or wagon) while the ES starts at $32,350. If the ES shouldnt be added to the IS when comparing to C-Class sales, then what does the ES go up against? The $48,170 to $56,270 E-Class?

3. Lastly, as far as your comment checkout your local Benz dealers lot and tell me if you see any base cars sitting around at those prices you listedthere are indeed cars around at those prices. The Autonation network has four C230K Sport Coupes IN STOCK within $1000 of the $26,020 price I posted, and in fact one unit at exactly that price. The same dealer network has exactly zero IS cars in stock within $1000 of the $29,980 price. The lowest-priced in stock IS is $31,629so your implication that the MB and Lexus website prices dont represent real-world availability actually seems to be more true of Lexus than MB. In fact in the real world maybe the cheapest MB isnt 13% cheaper than the cheapest Lexus, it is 18% cheaper...yet Lexus still outsells MB (total product line).

ljflx · December 2003

Real silly conversation when you think about it. With light truck and SUV sales continuing to grow (at the expense of car sales) and accounting for more than 50% of the market it is smart business to go with the flow.

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