High End Luxury Cars

footie · January 2004

Dear Merc1

And where would this be? Oz?

"and to a lesser degree the CLK and SL, unless you live in certain areas of the country in which I'm told these cars are more popular than Accords. "

jamesfletcher2 · January 2004

merc1,

Sorry but I was away for a few days on business. As for your question regarding my potential purchase of a 2003 S600 a few months ago, I recently decided to wait until the new generation S-Class comes to the USA to consider another one. The spy photos of the new S-Class is very interesting.

As for your comments that MB has the electronics and other issues worked out with the current (MY04) S-Class - I would tend to agree. However, it is of concern to me that it has taken them 3 - 4 model years to get the model to that point. My wife and I have owned more MBs, BMWs and Audi Quattros then I can remember (especially MBs). The Audi Quattros were a blast but required so much service I had to develop a "warm individual relationship with my Audi service tech". The MBs were great (until recent generations), if some what non-exciting. As I mentioned, I no longer even consider BMW because of the i-Drive and ugly exterior design. I still have concerns for Audi service requirements.

That being said, I purchased my first Lexus LS for my wife a few years ago after they came out with their vvt-i engines that finally gave them decent power and some tire and suspension upgrades for more euro-type handling. As ljflx has often stated well, I do not have time for cars to have problems even if I have someone that works for me take the car to the dealership.

I remember a post ljflx made which hit it on the head for me. Thankfully, I am able to purchase any car sold around the globe without more then a slight consideration to price. Period. However, the COST of the overall ownership is another matter (including my time and that of other with me). And, that is where the German companies are losing their focus and don't understand their modern potential or existing customers.

I came close to purchasing a Bentley 2 - 3 years ago but was put off by dependability concerns. I travel extensively all over the world and when I'm back home I expect a car (or SUV/truck) to work and delivery the type of drive they were engineered for. As I recall ljflx hinting, the fact that Lexus cost less is of no consideration to many buyers. It is other factors that drive my car purchases.

What I tend to do is purchase many different cars and trucks/SUVs at different homes I have for different needs or desires. And in the luxury car area, currently, Lexus is delivering more of what customers what! So, I have been going their way even though I am a very recent owner. I would still like to own another MB or two but am still waiting to see.

Jim

hage57 · January 2004

I just read your last post with interest. What you and ljflx say about Lexus great service and lack of problems is very true. I live about 1 1/2 to 2 hours from either a Lexus or Audi dealer, and over the last 15 years I have driven both, three LS 400/430 and couple Audi's, my last being a '98 A8. The difference in reliability and service are very noticeable. Having said that, I just spent some time in a new A8L, and was very impressed (maybe I just need a change, I'm driving an '01 LS 430), but I'm still concerned with reliability and service. What is your take on those two questions, concerning '04 A8L?

i_drive · January 2004

i know autospies isn't very popular, but have any of you seen the "first photo" of the interior of the '05 S-Class? If the photo is legitimate, all i can say is that is looks awfully close to the new 7-series. It's almost identical!

i was kind of hoping for something different, but it's still so far down the road that they might change some things...

anthonycecil · January 2004

Although we only have two cars, and their reliability has been fine (lexus mercedes) I have been thinking about the new Bentley. The closest dealership is three hundred miles away. I then tried to find out about the warranty. Apparently one year...I sent a question to the dealership, and have heard nothing back. What a nightmare to imagine if you were broken down somewhere , one hundred sixty thousand dollars sitting there on the side of the road..I have had problems in the past with the Lexus, all taken care of and I might say with great expense to Lexus.. I would really like to experience a Bentley, but the real luxury is having the peace of mind that an organization is backing you up wherever you may be. To me the other luxury is not to have to use it.
On another matter- As we were walking around the city `Charleston S.C.` I noticed the owner of `our` Lexus dealership pulling out of his drive. I waved him down and asked him about why he was driving a new Mercedes..He certainly has had the success to deserve a new Mercedes, but after all he should be setting an example for the rest of his customers. His lame excuse is that he had purchased almost all of the dealerships in Haiwii( which according to the news paper happened) and Mercedes was one of them.. Merc 1 would certainly have enjoyed that irony..After all when you can drive anything, Mercedes is the current choice of the super wealthy..I might further add that this gentleman has earned his money , and alot of it. Tony ps I will probably stick with Lexus-maybe the new Mercedes will change my mind

merc1 · January 2004

Read the post again, I clearly said "as I'm told" so if you want to issue with the statement please head over to the ES300 vs TL board in which one poster said this is true in HIS area of the country.....in response to when someone else on the board brought up how exclusive the SL supposedly was. Ever heard of a figure of speech? I guess because this isn't written in the bible (CR, JDP) it isn't so.

Tell you what footie how about you and not trying to answer each other's posts because I'm sure you find mine as ridiculous as I find yours. I've kept my end of this until now.

jamesfletcher2,

Well as its been the case everytime so far, its very interesting to get the thoughts of a buyer who says:

"Thankfully, I am able to purchase any car sold around the globe without more then a slight consideration to price. Period."

That is tall statement indeed. The only thing I'm wondering though is whether or not you're missing out on some very special cars, like a Bentley because you place reliability so high. I guess the way I see it, if I had that kind of money other cars (Lexus, #1 in reliability) would be my daily driver and the lesser ones (Bentley, highend MBs, Ferraris etc) would be there for other times. Just my little (much, much shorter money) take on it...lol.

anthonycecil,

A defection in the Lexus camp! Seriously though I we can only guess as to what his true reasons are. Though it has to be said that there a lot of dealerhip owners here that don't drive the cars they sells, some don't even care for them.

For you guys considering the new Bentley Continental GT: This new car is a VW based product, for better or worse. It shares its basic chassis with the VW Phaeton, and it's W12 engine, but the Bentley adds a turbocharger for it's additional hp. I'm not sure where Bentley would place on the all-important JDP and CR reliability surveys, but we do know where VW comes in at. To ask a current Bentley owner (Arnage, Continental T, Azure) owner how reliable his car has been won't help much because the new Continental GT shares almost nothing with them, and the car it shares most of it's guts with (VW Phaeton) is also brand new, so I'm not sure if there is any data to look at, other than lesser VW's reliability. Or maybe, if available some data the Phaeton's reliability in Germany/Europe since it's been on sale there since 2002.
That could be used as a starting point I guess.

i_drive,

I too saw that picture of the new S' interior, supposedly. I'd say that they got a shot of the 2005 7-Series' interior, you know the refresh thats coming. For Mercedes to copy BMW down the look of their interior is beyond reality. Someone is dead wrong on this one, we'll see who.

M

michael_mattox · January 2004

If I had problems with my LS and my Mercedes was trouble free...THE LS WOULD BE GONE...What makes you hang on to it, what do you like about it.

merc1 · January 2004

I remember a while back you were talking about how Mercedes offers more/unique colors, well take a look at this.

http://www.maseratiusa.com/jsp/cc4p/esterni.jsp

In the Quattroporte you can specify of course interior/exterior colors, but also the colors for seats, upper dash, steering wheel, brake calipers and carpets! All with your choice of 3 different types of wood, or the aluminum look stuff.

I can't wait to see this car in person!

M

stevestein · January 2004

I know of a similar situation to that told by anthonycecil. My son's sister-in-law (don't know if that makes her any relationship to me) owns MB, Lexus, RR and other dealerships. She drives an S600. Money truly isn't an object with her. She just bought the first SLR at auction (Christies for charity) for $2.1M.
For my money, which tops out at the LS/S430 level, I am very pleased I got the Lexus after two MB's.

ljflx · January 2004

From what I know ray catena (himself) use an SL500 as his principle car but also uses an LS430, an S500 and in the past had an Aston Martin for sheer stun appeal. I believe his main car is tied to which one of his dealerships makes the most money. In 2003 I'm told Lexus in Ocean beat out the MB dealership in Edison - for the first time - so he may have to swap out the SL for an SC.

Merc1 - I am not all that excited by that car but the next gen S-class looks like a nice evolution. What did you think of it? I think Automobile had a small story with pictures. Supposedly it will have DVD audio as I am sure most lux brands will have in the near future. In all honesty though I can't tell much difference between DVD audio and high quality CD's. I have a Denon system that plays both at home.

footie · January 2004

Sorry, Merc.

I think if most posters here used the caveat, "IMHO" or provided reliable references for their assertions, the casual visitor here would probably get information with the right slant.

What tends to happen though, its that a very small number of people make unsubstantiated assertions or generalize their experience and use that to project that across the population of a particular brand.

It's incorrect and serves as bad advice to forum visitors.

One "no-problem" Mercedes nor "troublesome LS" does not a model line make.

So, I enjoy offering corrections or at least a wake-up call.

And until someone disproves the huge statistical samplings and statistical techniques that Consumer Reports and JDPowers do here in the U.S., the conclusions that they draw about likely experience for any given brand is the best predictor to which we can offer advice.

Remember that the car companies are full of statistics folks capable of shooting holes in the JDP or CR ratings. They probably scrub them pretty hard. Not so much to see if they are wrong, but to see how well they corroborate their own warranty data. IMHO, the silence of the lambs is pretty telling.

lenscap · January 2004

I just got back to my computer today and saw your post from last week asking where I was. I have not been around since the third week in December, when I left for a two-week vacation with my girlfriend and her family. Then I had to go to Scottsdale for all of last week for meetings with a client. But I am back, and did fly up to the Detroit Auto Show on Saturday. (I hope you had a nice holiday.)

You should have no concerns about the new GS. The car is a knockout in my eyes. There are many details of the car that don't show up well in photos but do in person. For instance, the headlights are part of a wide "sweep" of sheetmetal that juts out from the side of the car. Hard to see in photos but very nice up close (taken from the LF-S). The car looks nothing like a Maxima either; it is far more substantial and sporty. I feel the car is very unique, and the narrow side windows with a curving arch will become part of the Lexus "look" on future cars. If anything, the car looks a bit like a BMW 745 in the greenhouse.

Having the current GS on the floor next to the the new GS (which was on a turntable) really showed off the differences between the two.

I am very excited about this car. Not everyone will like it, but it is best experienced in person.

ljflx · January 2004

Thanks. It is growing a bit on me.

Did you hear anything about the next LS (styling, timetable etc) by any chance? Also anything on the HPX - will they build it? They should.

ljflx · January 2004

The guys on the GS board weren't that crazy about the new design. Maybe you're words will soften them up. Was the car generating a lot of viewers at the show?

Merc1 - did you happen to go to the show and did you see this GS?

anthonycecil · January 2004

Possibly I was not very clear about the Lexus. It is a great car, as have been the previous four. I have had a problem with each car, and it has been taken care of properly..My point , or question is what would happen if I were to get a Bentley Continental..I had a hard enough time just finding out where I could (possibly) buy one. Imagine in the middle of nowhere something goes wrong(probably electrical) and the car dies on me. With Lexus I know there will be help along pretty quickly.. Maybe they would use AAA, who in the past also has been reliable. Tony

fenn · January 2004

Footie said:

"I think if most posters here used the caveat, "IMHO" or provided reliable references for their assertions, the casual visitor here would probably get information with the right slant.

What tends to happen though, its that a very small number of people make unsubstantiated assertions or generalize their experience and use that to project that across the population of a particular brand.

It's incorrect and serves as bad advice to forum visitors.".....etc etc.........

THANKS for that post footie!

That is a very good point.

I used to be more active here, but now I just lurk. Too many strong opinions from a few dogmatic people serves to make this place a hot-bed of hype and misinformation.

cindyroderick · January 2004

All Bentleys before VW took over were lemons. Although VW itself is no angel of quality, the new Bentleys especially the GT would be as good as a VW which is excellent news.

merc1 · January 2004

"So, I enjoy offering corrections or at least a wake-up call."

Who in the world left you in charge of anything? Everything is a reliability survey, even when nobody is talking about reliability. I made a statement with a "as I'm told" being clearly stated reguarding the SL's exclusivity yet you've come done from the mountain with CR in one arm and JDP in the other giving the same old rhetoric. What in the world does JDP and CR have to do with anything I said reguarding exclusivity? Nothing. Who made any statements about CR or JDP being wrong or incorrect? No one.

In fact I even told anthonycecil and others to check JDP and CR about Bentley/VW, so where you're half-baked post came from I'm not sure. Re-read the last post again. I clearly stated that JDP and CR is the place to check this info out for the questions the posters were asking, yet you bring up Mercedes and Lexus, when the question was about Bentley. I even clearly stated that Lexus is #1 in reliability per these very surveys you life and breathe by, yet you come back with some unrelated bs.

Instead of trying to berate everything I said, why don't you dig up some information on Bentley's reliability like the original posters were asking? No watch you not say anything about Bentley because your precious surveys don't cover them, yet you're the one with all the knowledge here. Can you comment on anything except reliability concerning these cars? Probably not. Don't tell me about people you know that own this or drive that because that doesn't give the picture of the entire brand.

Now because others used outdated information before and couldn't accept that they didn't have the facts right, the board is now full of misinformation, that figures. Especially when their "generalzations" were proven to be wrong. Yet you come here with this survey crap when no one is even talking about reliability, yet that is supposed to be the end all that encompasses the complete automotive experience. Dude pluhease. Surveys can't tell you squat past reliability, again of which no one was talking about.

M

merc1 · January 2004

Nope, I haven't been to Detroit yet, I'm going this weekend. I'll wait for the actual finished product (S-Class) before drawing any conclusions. Autospies is showing a interior picture of the car, but it looks like a 7-Series right down to the vents and idrive controller. I think its better to wait for a concept car or a clearer spy photoe before making any judgements. The car won't even be shown until sometime next year, either at Geneva or Frankfurt.

M

ljflx · January 2004

I haven't seen the autospies s-class pictures but I would thing automobile mag would be fairly reputable.

cindyroderick · January 2004

Automobile Mag is not as reputed as you think. Have you seen their Layout and Articles. They lack character. The wise among us know what we mean here.

I think reputation wise the rankings are

CR
Edmunds, Consumer Guide (a distant second)

Rest all is mostly garbage and 0-60 madness.

ljflx · January 2004

That's why I call them autorags quite often. But in printing pictures of future cars they've been reputable in the past.

fenn · January 2004

Consumer Reports is a good source for reporting on high-end Autos???

---Consumer Reports looks at autos if they were appliances. Their reports on vacuums and toaster ovens mean more to me than their short capsule style reports on automobiles.

Their subjective ratings are quite suspect, and they certainly do not address many auto enthusiast issues.

also: Consumer Guide?..As an automobile review resource for car enthusiasts? Huh? Consumer Guide seems to write up cars based on the manufacturer's own press releases.....!!

syswei · January 2004

"Consumer Guide seems to write up cars based on the manufacturer's own press releases"...I've heard people make the same criticism about Motor Trend...though I've never read Consumer Guide.

syswei · January 2004

MODEL DAYS ON LOT
Toyota Prius 8
Mercedes-Benz SL-Class 12
Mini Cooper 12
Toyota Sienna 12
Honda Pilot 13
Lexus GX 470 13
Lexus LS 430 13
Lexus ES 330 14
Acura MDX 15
Honda CR-V 16
Lexus RX 330 16

Data from: 2,818 Dealers; 5,161 Franchises

Source: Wall Street Journal and Power Information Network LLC, an affiliate of J.D. Power & Associates

ljflx · January 2004

I think when you view individual car stories or even individual car write-ups within a comparative test they provide plenty of data and much of it is good. It is the subjective opinions that they make that are so objectionable. Some of them are so bad that they make those opinions overwrite the actual test results and its clear to me that they preselected the winner before they even tested the cars. My other problem is that they only view the car from an enthusiast point of view (and they also tend to test cars against each other that have different biases thereby making it a worthless test in some cases) and don't weight enough into the whole ownership experience. This is where reliability - which they dismiss so easily - is critical.

Conumers reports - the value is in the data they collect and then how they report on it regarding reliability, body integrity, electrical systems etc. They do not view the car through an enthusiast eyes at all (though they have moved a bit in that direction) and are probably the opposite of the auto mags by viewing it (particularly in the past) almost entirely through an ownership experience with the weight being on both past and predicted car reliability based on their ownership survey (which is very large). However they have started to point out fun to drive factors and have rated the old 5-series extremely high and point out BMW handling as superior to most. They've also constantly pointed out that the A8 has an inferior ride to the S-class and LS430 and state that the latter two are among the finest cars in the world. Their only issues with the S-class are its poor reliability and high price. Otherwise they score that car sky high. I think they know what they are doing (note they were the first, or one of the first, to point out the big drop in MB reliability) but its not the place to go to get an enthusiast viewpoint of a car. But without question they are way more trusted then any auto magazine by consumers and they are not the least bit concerned about advertising as the former are. They are also quite ready to be bold and can move the whole market - witness Isuzu in the 90's.

merc1 · January 2004

How can they test reliability when they only have the car for a week or so? They can't be the judge on that so why even try to rate that quality? Would you rather they guess about it? I haven't ever seen where they "dismiss" reliability, they simply don't cover it. Despite what the most loyal survey clutchers will say, Mercedes, Audis and other "unreliables" are able to keep it together during testing, rendering reliability scoring by car mags pointless. This is why car mags do long term tests. Road and Track just took a 2004 Jaguar XJ8 and they're going to keep it for 50K miles, and they'll rack up those miles a lot faster than most owners will. So is this test not worth anything?

Its just the opposite with Consumer Reports, they couldn't give the enthusiast anything to read about if they tried. It's pretty much like Don says, they look at cars like appliances, and if the car mags test wildly different cars, then CR does the same thing. Isn't there an issue out now with just about every entry level sedan on the market test against each other? The ES330 doesn't belong in a test with a BMW 330i, it's ridiculous to compare these two in any way other than reliability, as their on-road purpose and mission is completely different.

How can you say that Consumer Reports is trusted by more consumers than the mags are? This is based on what? Millions of people read the mags just as much as they do Consumer Reports.

It still comes down to what you're looking for reguarding information on a car. Consumer reports hardly rules though, all CR did with Isuzu is put the final nail in the coffin. If they did rule the market hardly any European cars would be sold. They've harped about how poor their reliability is for years now with virtually no affect on sales. VW is shinning example of this, during the late 90's while CR was serving up the bad press about them, their sales went from 50K in 1993 to over 300K within 10 years, bad reliability and all.

It all boils down to this, if you want stats and numbers about reliability read CR, but if want the "car" aspect of the car then read the automags. There is no way for you to know which one is more trusted by they entire market, that judgement can only be made by the individual buyer.

M

footie · January 2004

<< The car companies send vehicles to CR BEFORE they start selling them for suggestions and feedback. Ford sent the new Freestar over, GM send in the Cadillac CTS and so on...>>

From USA Today in September, a good synopsis of the power of CR and the value that consumers place in its reporting:

"Since its first auto test 50 years ago, Consumer Reports has become the No. 1 source that car buyers turn to when buying a new or used vehicle."

<< I think that enthusiasts are a small part of the overall market >>

More than 40% of car shoppers use Consumer Reports for information, and in some segments  minivans, for example  nearly 60% of buyers use the magazine, according CNW Marketing/Research. That makes Consumer Reports the biggest single source of information car buyers use.

<< This has been the case for some time >>

The magazine, published by Consumers Union, a non-profit testing and information-gathering organization, ...has added seven automotive publications throughout the year to its traditional April auto issue; has a vehicle comparison test in every issue; and will spend $1.9 million to test 56 vehicles this year, up from $1.1 million for 41 vehicles in 1998.

<< They don't take anything from the auto companies and return free gifts from any manufacturer >>

ConsumerReports.org has 1.2 million paid online subscribers. A subscription costs $26; online access is $24 a year. Four million readers subscribe.

<< a couple of bucks a month has saved many consumers the heartache, time and $ from buying a lousy car from companies with reliability and quality problems>>

Wall Street analyst Scott Hill of Alliance Bernstein estimates that about 18 million consumers see the magazine's automotive recommendations annually through subscriptions, pass-along copies, online or in stories about its recommendations in other media.

<< 18 million consumers is (not conincidently) just a bit bigger than the new vehicle unit sales in the U.S.>>

<< Your comments about VW failed to note that VW's sales peaked a couple of years ago and fell sharply in 2003. Perhaps that was due to the quality and reliability problems that were highlighted by the recent ignition coil problem>>

<< I think consumer markets can respond slowly but when they turn they can often be hard to reverse. >>

ljflx · January 2004

I have extensive experience in the media and marketing information industry and couldn't agree with you more. CR is very deeply respected by consumers and manufacturers and the latter know it is the bible for most consumers - be it cars, appliances, packaged goods or services.

Merc1 - The reason the auto mags don't want to deal with reliabilty in their analysis is partly because the last thing they want to do is bring CR into their stories. Everyone knows it's the ultimate resource consumers turn to for nearly anything they buy and the more expensive the item the more crucial CR becomes. There is hardly an issue where cars are not dealt with and the April issue is all cars. Information database companies would kill to get at CR's database - the information is invaluable. Match the data to CR's subscriber base on a demographic profile basis (no one is interested in the individual personal data - per se) and you have incredible market information to sell to manufacturers. CR will not let it happen though as their integrity will be compromised. The statement that no one would buy a european car if they read CR is a bad one. It might be accurate if reliability is the only reason to buy a car but we all know it is not. But to some, myself included, poor reliability is a deal breaker.

michael_mattox · January 2004

Merc says:

"How can they test reliability when they only have the car for a week or so? They can't be the judge on that so why even try to rate that quality?"

Merc. shame on you, you know very well that consumer reports rates quality based on user questionairs sent out each year. New cars are always reported as new and no data available. Established model lines are rated based on information gathered over time and reported by users.

Some models do not get reliability ratings because they are relatively low production cars or CR receives too few evaluations from users.

If you look carefully at the Used Car reliablity ratings you will see that each new model year (going back 5 years) can have variences in their ratings (except toyota which is always all red)

charlienmr1 · January 2004

Like most information sources, you need to know what the data theyuse is based on. CR uses very limited data, to put it mildly, in evaluating car reliability. Please read the information on this link.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

I like the non-enthusiast point of view that they take. But to say they are the bible seems to me to be giving them way to much credit. If more people understood statistics (and I do) then they would take what CR says as just one of many sources, rather than the only one.

merc1 · January 2004

Wow, you know what Mike, thats typical. Read the post again, very slowly....everyone else got that I was talking about the car mags except you. It clearly states in sentence #6 that I'm talking about the car mags. Read the entire paragraph before posting.

ljflx,

"The reason the auto mags don't want to deal with reliabilty in their analysis is partly
because the last thing they want to do is bring CR into their stories. Everyone knows it's the
ultimate resource consumers turn to for nearly anything they buy and the more expensive the item the more crucial CR becomes."

Says who? If that were the case all these expensive, unreliable cars from Mercedes, Volvo, Audi, Saab, Jaguar and others wouldn't sell at all considering the marks they get. Most (not all) people who typically know what kind of car they want (especially expensive ones) aren't going to be swayed by people who test VCRS and cam corders. You're saying that everyone worships Consumer Reports and that couldn't be any further from the truth. You wouldn't buy an Audi based on what they say, yet over 80K people last year did buy an Audi.

"The statement that no one would buy a european car if they read CR is a bad one. It
might be accurate if reliability is the only reason to buy a car but we all know it is not. But to some, myself included, poor reliability is a deal breaker."

Thats just what I'm saying, thats your case. You place reliability "sky high" but everybody doesn't. Clearly they don't. I'm not saying that a lot of people don't "consult" CR, but to assume that all that do make their purchased based on CR is too big of an assumption for anyone here to make. Again if they did why do so many cars that they say to "avoid" end up selling very well. The placed the CLK on the avoid list, especially used ones...yet the car has the resale of any luxury coupe on the market. Look it up. This only proves that there is a whole group of buyers that either didn't consult CR or if they did, they obviously didn't care. If everyone held CR as a bible the CLK's (just one example) resale would be in the toilet.

footie,

As far as CR having 4 million subscribers...between Car and Driver, Road and Track, MT and Automobile and others like Autoweek, there are far more people at least reading "autorags" than Consumer Reports.

Unless USA Today talked to everyone that bought a car last year, a newspaper article doesn't mean anything to me.

VW's sales problems are mainly due to old product, Passat, Jetta, Golf and Bettle have all been around since 1997 or 1998. Ignition coils would be the least of worries for the average VW owner, they have other problems that are far more frequent, I know you of all people know this. The ignition coil problem hasn't caused the headache that the window relay switch problem did in the past. My point is that VW has far more persistant problems than the ig coil and they've had them before 2003, the year of the sales down turn. You have to look at the whole picture. VW also refused to play the incentives game like GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda. They only reluctantly gave some incentives on certain cars, not nearly the amount that the domestics give.

An "estimate" by the WSJ means what? Ok so they estimate 18 million read CR while in a waiting room getting their tire changed and on someone's coffee table. Do you really think the car mags don't reach even more people when they have more subscribers than CR does with at least 4 different major publications that can be passed around.

You come along anytime anyone else posts anything that isn't factual, yet you're passing a bunch of estimates by USA Today and the WSJ off as fact, two publications that don't know anything about cars in general. All they can do is tell you what people read, not if they make the buying decisions because of it.

Again, guys I'm not saying CR isn't important...even I have read them extensively when looking at Audis, or that the majority of people buying a car don't consult them, but to say they rule the market and that everyone makes their actual buying decision based on CR is absurd. Otherwise some makes would never get their product out the showrooms. If reliability reports is your thing fine, I personally will never that decide what car I buy, but that doesn't explain why hundreds of thousands of people still bought cars that are listed as being "unreliable" by CR. Everyone doesn't place as much weight on what they say or on reliability. Their road tests are joke. I'll ask again is there an issue out now in which a BMW 330i is in a comparo with a Lexus ES330? If that is the case, and I saw this on another board, CR is clueless on which cars are for which market. Yet they're to be trusted in everything? Thats ridiculous.

Just like you guys could care less about what MT, Car and Driver, Automobile and Road and Track was to say during a road or comparision test. There is no way I could say that everyone that reads C&D (3 million) bases their decision off of what they say. You'd have to conduct and exit poll at every dealer to come to such sweeping conclusions. If such data exists I'd love to read it....Footie?

M

motownusa · January 2004

People are not stupid, at least most aren't. Nobody is going to pay 80 grand for a car that will leave them stranded after six months. I think, one reason Toyota is doing so well in North America is because of their high reliability ratings from Consumer Reports. In fact in the last ten years, Toyota has surpassed Daimler Chrysler to become the third largest auto company in the world. It will be second largest in less than a year if it hasn't already. Toyota I think sold more vehicles than Ford worldwide in 2003. CR is partly responsible for Toyota's success in North America.

mfullmer · January 2004

... It's clear you have no clue as to how Consumer Reports tests cars. Here are some FACTS directly from their website:

CR anonymously purchases the vehicles they test (40-50 per year).

CR's 18 automotive specialists, engineers, and technicians not only drive the vehicles on their 327 acre testing facility but thousands of miles on public roads over several months.

CR uses the yearly subscriber survey to compile data for reliablity and ownership experience.

Yes, not everyone buys only cars they recommend but the vast majority of informed car buyers look to them for reliable, unbiased data.

For the consumer who is looking to purchase an automobile that is reliable and is concerned with the ownership experience related to normal car driving - commuting, vacationing, etc. - it is certainly the most substantiated source.

Of course, CR to the people who purchase vehicles for vanity and "look-at-me" status, is nothing but dribble.

footie · January 2004

From the Car and Driver website

Paid subscriptions for the top four auto mags:

C&D 1,377,395
Motor Trend 1,276,811
Road and Track 751,584
Automobile 637,437

Total 4,043,227

The combined newstand sales for all four is around 500,000.

The C&D reader demographic may not be a likely shopper for this forum's subject matter. Less than 1 in 5 completed college and about 1 in 5 have professional / managerial jobs.

syswei · January 2004

Interesting demographic data on C&D. I once made the comment that the autorags emphasize performance and high-priced cars over long-term ownership in part because a large fraction of their readers are "dreamers" who will probably never be in a position to buy an SL600 for example. That data is consistent.

footie · January 2004

Car and Driver, Road and Track, MT and Automobile and others like Autoweek, there are far more people at least reading "autorags" than Consumer Reports.

<< Bad data Mr. Merc ... see post 3936 >>

VW's sales problems are mainly due to old product, Passat, Jetta, Golf and Bettle have all been around since 1997 or 1998. Ignition coils would be the least of worries for the average VW owner,

<< VW has been working hard for a long time to get a really rotten record of troublesome maintenance issues. But the ignition coil issue really helped them solidify their position. Here's the lead paragraph on an official VW press release last February:

"AUBURN HILLS, Mich., Feb. 4 -- Volkswagen of America, Inc. and Audi of America, Inc. today announced a customer service action in which the companies will ultimately replace the ignition coils in all 2001 and 2002 model year cars equipped with certain engines that have been experiencing a higher-than-normal failure rate. Also affected are very early production 2003
models." >>

Do you really think the car mags don't reach even more people when they have more subscribers than CR does with at least 4 different major publications that can be passed around.

<< From the C&D site: estimated total readership 9.9 million. P.S. And that's based on an average readership of 7.5 people per subscriber! Very impressive for an autorag with 42% of its subscribers single men...?>>

You come along anytime anyone else posts anything that isn't factual....WSJ off as fact, two publications that don't know anything about cars in general.

<< Mr. Hill is not with the WSJ. He's with Alliance Bernstein and is their auto industry analyst. Perhaps he knows a little about cars and car companies... Bernstein is considered "The Best little shop on Wall Street. They do Research Right" by Fortune Magazine. In that article they really praised the tough, independent work that Bernstein does and how valuable their 5,000 institutional clients consider their analysis.

<< But you don't have to believe them either. >>

pat · January 2004

Um, last I checked the topic here wasn't exactly car magazines, it's the cars themselves. Maybe we could get back to talking about them for a bit?

carboy12 · January 2004

I know that Mercedes has a much lauded history, but my own recent experience is very disappointing.

I have recently been through three months of mediocre experience with a new E class. After years of wanting a MB, I finally went for it, but I now regret this deal!!! I have been to the dealer too many times in the past three months for service issues. I also find the interior rather bland for a car that cost so much.

I went to Mercedes after driving a five year old Lexus GS. However, these days I often think that I would rather be driving my old Lexus. It was more reliable with 68,000 miles than this MB has been in the first three months.

In the first four months of ownership I have had four trips to the dealer. This is more interesting-- since a close relative also has a 2003 E class, and he also has numerous complaints.

Meanwhile, my 74 year old mother has recent MB C class, and I think very little of it. What an overpriced piece of junk! It has the Mercedes cache from the outside, but it is really very uninspired basic vehicle. At least her C class has been relatively reliable.

Of course, the "issues" with the past few years of S class Mercedes has seem well known by most. Admittedly, the latest editions are showing better reliablity, and improved fit and finish, but the past few years of S class production has been far from inspiring. In fact, I have two friends who left the MB fold in the past six months after S class dissatisfaction with 2001 and 2002 MB S Class cars.

So, I see some of the people here really have an "over the top" love of Mercedes, but I have to wonder whether this is just a lust, like I used to have for this marque, or something based on a real ownership experience. The day-in, day-out ownership experience offers a real life perspective! Try it, before touting MB.

I am stuck, so I will try to like my Mercedes, but I am having a hard time with it.

Needless to say, I think that the view from a distance, while dreaming and lusting for a Mercedes, is nothing like the actual MB ownership experience.

bluestar1 · January 2004

Well said ! Maybe some *dreamers* out here need a shot (make that a DOSE) of reality. Living in an island of MB's does impair hand-eye coordination.... Hehehehe just j/k of course.

A colleague's wife has an '03 E320. Being in the shop far too frequent. Currently in the shop as we speak. She has been driving the loaner M350, and she ain't too happy either. Her E cost her $50K. That isn't anything to snicker about. Yes, the car looks beautiful from the outside, it's the electrical gremlin that is just crippling its image.

If MB execs are reading these boards, they'd better do something QUICK. Reputation for bad quality and unreliability can be slow to catch on, but once it does, it's all downhill. Can't stop a rolling stone on a downhill slope !

'Nuff said.

ljflx · January 2004

What you are going through is what I feared so much in 2001. Having nothing but Lexus cars since 1995 (save a Landcruiserin the late 90's- which really is a Lexus for the most part anyway) can really spoil you. In 2001 I looked long and hard at the S-class but lacked confidence in it. I just knew the LS430 would yield three more years of perfection in a glorious car and I feared that the MB S, while a glorious car also, would have a rash of problems. Plus it just didn't match the LS in ride or cabin quietness. Results have perfectly matched expectations on not one, but two LS cars including my business car which is now at 60k miles. I only need one car this go round and in April it will be another LS which I fully expect will give me another perfect trip for 3 years. My first LS in 95 is still running very well - in the care of a friend - and has over 200k miles on it. My 98 car became a Lexus certified car but I don't know where it ended up. Both of these 2001's will make whoever takes them very happy. Not even a hint of a rattle and as whiser quiet as day one out of the showroom.

A friend of mine just traded his 1998 Landcruiser for a Lincoln Aviator. The TLC had 140k miles on it and never had a problem. The Aviator is giving him a lot of headaches within the first few months. I bumped into my buddy at a school function the other day and he said he didn't know what he was thinking when he switched but he'd trade the Aviator back for his TLC in a heartbeat if he could. It's not easy to move from the near perfect world of Toyota and Lexus. It may never occur for me. You could have had a helluva LS430 instead of that E-class. I hope you leased.

tmjdds · January 2004

Finishing up my 3 flawless years with my LS430. Thought about leasing a new one but just had to try something different. I should be getting my 745Li in a couple of weeks. The only things I liked better about the BMW was back seat room and heated steering wheel. Ride, seat comfort, stereo, cell phone integration (Blue Tooth), trunk space, navigation system, quietness were all nicer in the Lexus at 20 thousand less.

This discussion about problems with the BMW and iDrive makes me a little nervous. I would have thought they would have figured out all the problems by now. Does anyone know of someone who had a 2004 7 series buy back? I now the 2002's and some 2003's were bought back.

jamesfletcher2 · January 2004

I just got back to Town Hall after traveling again and tmjbbs' question about BMW 7-Series "buy backs" got me thinking. I have certainly heard of BMW, MB, Jaguar and Audi buy backs - although other then with the last couple of years with MB and the BMW 7-Series, not in what I perceive as large numbers.

Has anyone ever heard of a buy back of a new Lexus LS? I have not but wanted to ask you all. I assume there must be some but I have just never heard or read of one for a LS.

Jim

sv7887 · January 2004

Hi All,
We've all heard the stories of MB's so called demise. I'm sure our German friends are going to address this issue. I don't see how they can ignore it, given that the Reliability issue is Lexus' prime marketing tool.

The LS is a good car, but they too are prone to defects. My 2002 LS430 has had the following Issues:

Steering Wheel Groans upon Retraction (Fixed under Warranty)

Wiper Sensor Failure. Replaced under Warranty.

So, that's nothing terrible compared to the MB stories we've heard. The only thing I can say is that my 1992 LS was better. The sole issue was a burnt out tail light at 11 yrs of age. Aside from the fact some idiot hit it two months ago, everything was fine. This brings me to my next question:

With the 92 LS giving me a nightmare post accident (6 trips to the dealer now) I'm thinking of buying a (3-4 yr old)Pre-Owned high end Lux car. What's the best bang for the buck?

Thanks,
SV

wabends · January 2004

You should be able to get a good LS 430 between $40K and $46K for MY 2001-02. There are several on the market now coming out of leases. The cost can go up by $2K -$3K depending on the mileage and the installed options. We just got a 2001 with the UL package (all available options)for around 44K from a dealership in MD. Let me know if you need additional info about the dealership.

Best wishes in your hunt!

tmjdds · January 2004

When I shopped the 2004 Lexus LS430, the Lexus dealer told me he would give me $38k for my 2001 and if I knew somone that wanted it, he would turn it around for $500. Add $1500 and get the Lexus certification to 100k mi. My car has only 21k miles, black w/ML.

I ended up buying a 2004 745Li. The BMW dealer is also giving me $38k but don't know if he could (or would) turn it and certify it.

The only used sedan I would ever buy is the LS. The others sound like they could be a handful when they are out of warranty.

touring · January 2004

I know of a LS430 buyback, in the past month. About 1,200 miles. Serious engine problems, that they were not adequately fixed.

The dealer actually suggested trading the vehicle for a new car. The owner speculated that there may have been some advantage to this for Lexus, so that it was not reported in Lemon Law statistics. But it could have just been the usual terrific Lexus service.

In any event, it was all surprising.

ljflx · January 2004

From test driving it I can tell you it is smoother and silkier still (if you can believe it) with more road feel, good handling (the sport suspension has fabulous handling) and more power due to the six speed. Very quick in 0-60 and excellent torque. The interior is virtually unchanged, remains very very quiet (a bit quieter than the 2001 model) and the back-up camera is great. I'm a leaser so I will take the 2004 in April. The body style is also a bit more agrressive and the car looks spectacular in black, flint mica and cypress. If you go the sport route the 18" wheels make it look better still. If you take it than you should lease because the big change is coming in 2006 as a 2007 car and you'll be much more desiring to change then.

michael_mattox · January 2004

Thanks

Mike M.

bmwlgbaaron · January 2004

We've got two 2003 745Li's with every available option (except sport package and adaptive ride package) and have never had a single problem.

iDrive is very easy to use once you understand what it's doing.

I hope you enjoy your 7-series.

We've got nearly a year on one of them already and it has been flawless.

The other we took delivery of in May and have not had any problems either.

What options did you order for the 7?

Both cars are identical in terms of equipment except that one is Toledo Blue and other is Titanium Silver. Both have flannel gray interior leather with dark ash high gloss wood trim.

They are equipped with:

Luxury Seating Package:
-20-way front active comfort seats w/heated seats and air conditioned seats, massage, and 4 position memory

Premium Sound System:
-13 speakers with Logic 7 digital decoding technology

Convenience Package:
-power close doors and trunk

19" radials - a must have (look much better than 18s)

Rear Comfort Seats:
-14-way power adjustable rear seats with heating and air conditioning, 4 position memory

Tire Pressure Monitor - has already saved us once!

Heated Steering Wheel - nice when it's cold

Active Cruise Control:
-Awesome system that maintains a specified distance between you and the car in front of you, modulating speed to maintain that distance

Electric Side and Rear Window Sunshades:
-electric rear window and both side windows on either side-all of them are electric!

Park Distance Control - neat feature, use it all the time.

Both of my grandparent's have these cars and they have absolutely no problems with iDrive and both are computer illiterate. I think you'll enjoy that 7!

Welcome to the club!

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