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Comments
I'm sure a high percentage of LS430 buyers can swing a S430, especially if they're leasing them. No doubt.
I've always wanted to ask what town do you live in, it sounds like quite a place the place. Probably like what Naperville IL is here.
The Acura Legend is the reason why I've always had a strong desire to own and Acura, but they just can't seem to get the styling right.
edspider1,
It really does depend on your circle or group, because to some a Lexus is just that a poor mans Mercedes, and to some it's a better car that doesn't get its just do. Since Lexus does make a great car all they'd have to do to erase that stigma is create their own styling and not follow Mercedes' every move. They probably will do the former, but the latter is just good business.
sv7887,
Ahh...Jag u wa. Yes, imo the new XJ is a full fledged member of this class. It's light and lean and is easily a styling home run. The only thing I noticed at Detriot is that it still does have anywhere near the room of say a LS430 or 745Li, so far that hasn't slowed its sales down. I'm not sure about their reliability you'll have to ask one of the survey people about that one. They only Jaguar I truly don't like is the X-Type. The XK is a modern classic. Its about the only other luxury car besides a Mercedes SL that can wear the same styling since 1997 and still look so good. Jaguar's dual-edged sword is their styling you either like it or you don't. It's either just right or way too much for some, and in the case of the old XJ it made the car very uncompetitive because it simply was too small (low roof etc) for many.
M
Big SUV's are in around here for local needs and because we've had a lot of snow in the past 6-8 years. We seem to be a southern snowbelt area of NYC whenever the storms take a mid-atlantic route. The blizzard in 96 put down more than 3 feet here and in last years President's day storm we had about 30".
Here is my own prejudice against MB. I have friends who are MB fanatics. They would NEVER have a "Japanese piece of crap". Of course all of their cars have to be "European". They also have a very expensive house with 100% mortgage, credit card debt, a 1995 MB S420 with a new loan on it, a boat that they have a loan on and can't afford to fix when it breaks, etc.
I, on the other hand, couldn't care less about the "prestige" of the car or where it came from. Reliability and Resale is key. I have a nice house with 50% equity, no credit card debt, and only pay cash for "recreational purchases".
This in no way makes me better than anyone else I just think, from my experience, it does hold true to the two types of buyers. IMHO
Others are more conservative and build equity in homes and businesses and build up savings. It's life and all that really matters is whether one is happy. I know plenty of rich people and many of them are not satisfied and I know plenty of lesser income people and many of them are.
Merc1 - forgot - Queen Latifa is also in town about a mile away. Bon Jovi lives over in Rumson which is a helluva town on the Navesink river (Springsteen used to live there) and Geraldo Rivera and Connie Chung are in neighboring Middletown NJ. I just missed Bon Jovi at Ray Catena one day. He was shopping an LX for his wife and I had just taken the GX out for the day to see if it was the right truck. The big money towns here are Colts Neck, Rumson and Holmdel and all three have some homes that price out at $10-20mln particularly Rumson because of the water. Now one guy in town would be an interesting interview. He has an SL, an SC, an LS, an S500 and an LX470. But he also has a 10 car garage in a 12,000 foot house with lifts. So God only knows what else he has in that garage.
By the way the car salesman will tell you some great stories. A funny one my guy told me was about Martina Navritolova - she bought her and hers SC430's. Those were his words.
I guess it all depends on where you fall. I am more like the guy earlier who ranked "fun to drive" as last. Mostly because I don't want to find driving "fun" as I do too much of it.
Yes, he lives in a nice cottage, but it is for sale.
Give me a medium sized city with real people with a sense of community. Where people drive what they own not what they need to lease as a fashion statement. Throw in a couple of Starbucks and Borders/Barnes&Nobles located within two hours of the ocean and skiing and that would be all she wrote.
kdshapiro,
Careful, you aren't going to be able to verify that with a survey or bar graph from JDP. I mentioned what you said about SL's in your area and got the Gettysburg address from atop the CR and JDP mountain.
mfullmer,
ljflx is right, it does indeed vary. There are people in debt up to their eyeballs with every brand of car, not just the prestige Euro brands.
M
I've also noticed a certain "haughty aire" to BMW owners (in GENERAL) on the road.
I know that my prejudice is only generalized by my experiences but I get a certain pleasure out of NOT giving in to my desire to own a "look-at-me" brand and choose my vehicles first and foremost on reliability.
Although - I'm thinking of getting a '99 or '00 SL to have as a weekend car. I just started warming up to that body style as the new (read: UGLY) one's came out.
I tend to agree with you, I had to overcome the same stereotype about BMW drivers myself before I bought my first one. I'm a little different from most folks though in that while I like my luxury goodies, I still want a car with a good sporting capability AND a manual transmission. Unfortunately the number of cars on the market that meet my criteria these days are few and far between, hence my move to BMW.
FWIW, even though I'm doing the "European Prestige" thing, I have all of my credit cards paid off, my home has an LTV of less than 50%, and even though my kids are only 10 and 7, their college funds are already capable of getting them through their undergraduate degrees. So, IMHO, it's time to play. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I've also noticed that BMW owners put more miles on their cars than other marques. Could it be there is something to the "ultimate driving machine" other than fluff, image and arrogance?
Besides, BMW is no longer a "look at me" brand and I'm not sure it ever was. There's some serious ugly going on there. Buyers are turning their backs on the look so it's all about function now—the ride. Any "prestige" that comes with it is icing on the cake.
There are airs with all luxury marques BMW included, but for most BMW buyers it goes a little deeper and I would think that anyone who doesn't understand this never drove a BMW.
Merc1 - The A8 just never cut it in the NYC and south of NYC area. But go northeast of NYC to Conneticut and you'll see a decent amount of them. When I looked at the A8 in 2001 the local dealership - which was an awful place - told me they get 4 A8's a month and they were discounting heavily without me negotiating. When I test drove the car a few months back nothing had changed. I'm sure a few are sprinkled around but with the local dealership (and it's a small one which also sells Range Rovers) selling so few it's easy to see why they are so rare around here.
There have been good points made on all sides without getting acrimonious. Thanks.
My money is on Carolina Sunday. Anyone with me? Lack of a running game will hurt New England.
One thing however, S-Class 4Matics are not low sellers, they made up over 30 percent of all S-Class sales last year nationwide.
M
When the Audis and Acuras were together potential customers would go in the back and talk to the mechanics to see which were better cars from a reliability standpoint. Of course, the mechanics said the Acuras required far less maintenance. I guess they wanted to separate the two brands to "protect" Audi and that may be why Acura moved out.
lenscap - I sought of feel the same way about this one as I did about New England winning two years ago. I think Carolina will blitz heavily because of the lack of NE's running game and this will throw them off. Regardless New England was very impressive in the AFC championship as was Carolina in the NFC game. Should be a good super bowl.
ljflx,
Well thats still a good amount when you're talking about less than 25K cars, especially for such a pricey car to start with. For the E-Class it will be even higher this year, 4Matic E's are an hot item. I have the MT issue. Honestly I'm tiring of MT, their writing is so high-school and it's always the Corvette, Mustang type rhetoric month in and month out. No sophistication at all. England's CAR magazine has more in one issue than about 5 of Motor Trend's. Though I do like MT's comparos (sometimes) and it's always fun to read what they *think* the future cars are going to be.
M
I have to admit that in the Washington DC area, BMW used to be exclusive and I felt a little special because of the hood ornament. With BMW selling over 225,000 cars and SAV's in the US per year, it seems like everyone is driving one.
They are growing sales because they offer a great product with a great reputation. BMW's receive praise from car magazines and every road test for performance sedans is titled "BMW Beater??? Then you read the test and the conclusion is: close but not a BMW beater. Even the conservative mag Consumer Reports pronounced the 530i the best car they have ever tested.
I've been looking for a replacement for my current 7 series and when I test dive the Lexus, Merc, Phaeton, Audi, Infiniti, I get back in my car and drive away knowing that I'm already in the best car. (in my humble opinion) I guess the only replacement for me is a newer BMW (except the new 7 scares me a bit).
So far, we like the Cayenne so much we don't want to give it to our daughter (supposed to be a birthday gift in about 2 weeks). according to plan, I want to get my wife a Cayenne S, but we've been quite pleased actually with the performance of the Cayenne V6 (but noticibly weaker than the S model). the only problem; we've got this one in black and it takes in dust WITHIN SECONDS, literally. So I always have to wipe it. And guess what? All of our cars are black. Black S430, Black (metallic) SL55, Black Cayenne, and soon-to-be black Cayenne S. Drives a lot of our neighbors crazy.
So, what's up with this NavUp programme? My 2002 S430 has CD-based GPS, and look at what it says:
(@ mbusa.com...)
CD Navigation - Model Year 2004 C-Class, CLK-Class, G-Class, SL-Class.
(Also available for prior model year vehicles with CD or DVD navigation)
------------------------------------
I don't understand that. It says 'also avaliable for prior model years WITH CD or DVD navigation.'
Does this mean that a CD-based Navigation can use DVD-CD's? I highly doubt that, but if that's the case, I'll send it asap to my MB dealer. Because all I can say is that the '02 COMMAND GPS system was one of the worst introduced (actually, the Cayenne's is THE worst)
Mercedes-Benz of Laguna Niguel has a lot of Maybach's in the showroom. Stopped by there last weekend to service the car, and I'm honestly quite surprised about the close-resemblance to the '04 S-Class. A bit too close, in my opinion. But, I've seen one, Maybach (the 57 model) cruising along Pearl Ave. in Downtown La Jolla. I think it was some desert-silver color, close to the designo silver offered on the S-Class. It was an rather old gentleman, about 60 something. The car zipped along quite fast, which was interesting considering the gigantic size of that monster.
i've also heard from my salesperson at MB of LN that the next-generation S-Class will look very similar to the Maybach- not too sure I'll like that, but time will tell...
I hope the next S doesn't look like the Maybach, but some of the spy photos and drawings are pointing in that direction, with the rear of the next S having a similar design. One thing the next S should have a Maybach level interior, with an all new look.
i_drive,
What has the SL55 AMG been like to own/drive?
M
M
By the way I told you the Maybach had a bit too much of a Lincolnesque grill. But I still find the car quite impressive from the side and the interior is out of this world. I did'nt notice if the rear seat is raised like the Rolls so that the back seat passenger has same view as driver.
Did you recently see/drive a Maybach or something? Yes it's still an awesome car in my book, my only real problem is the styling. I hope the next generation Maybach has a better look outside and a interior not in the same pattern/style as Mercedes'.
I read your post on the LS board, and yes you're right the HPX doesn't look anything like the FX. I'm not sure what I said back then based on pictures, but after actually seeing it I agree that it doesn't look like the Infiniti FX. I think some may have got it twisted by thinking just because the HPX was rumored to be launched because of the FX, they convinced themselves that it also looked like it??
Naturally I totally disagree with the notion of a S600 being a "total ripoff" because it looks like the other S-Class models. The S600's power and command of the road is unmatched by anything from Japan. Only Audi's A8L 6.0 W12 looks any different from the basic A8, nobody else does different body work for their V12s or top line cars either.
M
Put another way, if it costs an extra 40k to get a car that goes 0-60 in 5sec rather than 6, and an extra 200k to get one that goes in 4sec, and an extra 1mm to get to 3sec...well, even people who can afford to spend 300k or 1mm or whatever on a car aren't necessarily going to do so. Many wealthy folk do care about value.
Real "wealth folk" are more interested in value than "flash appeal", which is all a Mercedes Benz can offer.
Ripoff - is maybe too strong a word but the S600 price is about $20k too high in my opinion.
So you're still spying on the LS board, huh.
Great Superbowl. They should do it like that every year - the game I mean. I'll stay silent about the half-time show.
Value doesn't always mean cheap or being less expensive. Some people see "value" in a more expensive car for what it offers compared to a cheaper car that doesn't have as much.
ljflx,
Thats funny you dislike the front of the Maybach and I dislike the rear. Various TV stations here are having shows on the Chicago autoshow and the Maybach and Rolls Phantoms are headliner in each one. One guy previewing the cars earlier tonight at the black-tie viewing said he's buying one of each, a Maybach 57 for him and Phantom for her! Cha-ching 650K!
I read a lot of different boards every day. You have to keep an eye on developments concerning the competition.
All I'll say about the half-time show is that guys, TiVo is the key!
M
Now that's funny!
While many people do buy Mercedes just for the "flash" value, many others do not. My girlfriend's father is about as non-flashy as you can get (a very good thing in my mind), and he owned an SL600 that he bought new in the mid-90s. He bought the car for several reasons but flash was certainly not one of them, I can assure you that.
Furthermore, I see very good reasons to exhibit one’s success especially if it helps drum up business. For instance, if I were in a position to invest people’s money I’d feel a lot better soliciting clients in a Mercedes or BMW than a Honda. Kind of gives them some confidence in your abilities, no? I’m not saying it should be a smokescreen to cover up any shortcomings, but it does tend to say “I made money and can help you do the same.”
That said, there are also people who are NOT pretentious who buy solely for performance, reliability and comfort. Lots of types out there no big deal. The only problem I see is with those who buy for status and can’t afford it. These people are to be pitied and are a danger to themselves.
Yes, I often feel good about the status that comes with my luxury cars, but it's not the most important thing in my life and never trick myself into thinking I'm better than someone else because of it. Personally, I think most owners of all luxury cars feel the same way.
When I see someone who depends on my money to make a living appearing to be able to indulge very expensive tastes, I figure that person is costing me too much money. :-)
Go back and read my post, particularly the sentence with the word "smokescreen."
I have, and they are also very good at what they do, sell good products, are down to earth and are decent human beings.
ljflx, you are talking about less-than-savvy shoppers here don't you think?
An interesting point, as that is my point of view about value.
Value is about what I think something has, not what you tell me it has.
Why if I were driving a rolls would I be selling network equipment? But that begs the question, I don't go to a senior mgmt meeting wearing jeans either. If I could afford a rolls, I could also afford a Honda to sell network equipment in.
Professionals (e.g., physicians, CPAs, lawyers, entertainers, etc.) usually come out of a more academic background. They are not only not constantly weighing the pros and cons of alternative investment ideas, they also usually lack the ability to put more capital to work in their business (i.e., their practice). As a result they are more susceptable to the lures of luxury goods like 15K watches and 100K sedans. (Some professionals have real vision however and do have an active, self-managed investment portfolio. Maybe they buy the building where their practice is located or make other investments. This is rare though. Most can't spend it fast enough and at 65 have little to show for a lifetime of high income.)
The serious business people in New England that I know drive AWD Denalis, XC Volvos, and three year old Exploders. etc. They go in early and stay late, no matter what the weather. And they wear a black sport watch not a (fake) gold Rolex like a sales manager at a domestic car store. So if they bang it on a Bridgeport or when they are working-out they just buy another Timex. Meanwhile the trustfunders (TFers) and the people with letters after their name are at the Patek Phillipe counter handing over the plastic thinking that spending is an "investment".