High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · February 2004

Try as I might, and I've seen the car 3 times now, I just can't like the new Bentley Continental GT. It looks like it should say "Timberland" on the hood instead of "Bentley".

M

lexus0622 · February 2004

Merc1: Please, please, please, cut the car some slack! :-) I know you see a big shoe when you look at the GT, but I'm getting ready to place my order after having waited for over a year. I need a little empathy here, fella.

I know that you "calls 'em as you sees 'em," but say something nice, please. I need a little boost. "Timberland?" Really? Help me out here; be kind.

I need to hear from a new owner. There should be at least one of you out there from the European market where the GT has already been released. First ones should be getting here soon, so you closet new purchasers need to stand up and be counted!!!

merc1 · February 2004

There is plenty to say about that thing....kidding.

Seriously, I'm impressed with the car overall, but styling is my main draw to a car in the first place. It's hard for me to get into what a car will do, how well it's made, who makes it, etc if it doesn't look good.

That said, the Bentley Continental GT is still an awesome car, far as I can tell. It has the engine, interior and prescence that make a Bentley a Bentley. Bentleys are about hand craftsmanship and brutal power. This car has that. Only the styling is off, and remember imo.

I'm not sure if I like the fact that it shares so much with the VW Phaeton, being awd an all, but thats the only way you'll get a Bentley for under 200K.

If you like it, I love it. Place that order!

M

lexus0622 · February 2004

Thank you, Merc1, for letting me down gently. You have such a nice way of saying "if you're crazy enough to buy that ugly !@?$ car, then go right ahead." (Just kidding too).

I understand your view and, to be perfectly honest with myself, I see the overbulking too. It's just that I have waited so long to see if Lexus would ever re-establish its own look with the LS, and continue to be disappointed. I have a '92 LS400 and was heart-broken when they began the march toward styling the rear toward MB. Every year I hoped against hope for a return to the low, sleek, feline curves of the original, and every year I was pained anew.

The GT reminds me of the smooth curves of the early LS, albeit way too muscular.

Truth be told, I forced myself back to a Lexus dealer last week and tried, really tried, to connect with the 430 -- I just couldn't do it. If I wanted a MB, I would simply buy one (having already done so for my wife). I know the ride would be great in the LS430 -- no question there. The dealer was a bit puzzled as to why I didn't want to drive it. I told him that my block was the boxed S design presentation and color choices. Not very logical stuff, I realize, but very significant aesthetically to me.

So, I guess I've decided to live in a shoe for a little while rather than a box -- at least until we see what the 2007 LS looks like!

sv7887 · February 2004

Merc,
I can understand your pain as you've not had a taste of the Lexus experience. (Come to the dark side! LOL!) I've owned practically everything in the Luxury car segment with the exception of a BMW. Yes, these cars are REALLY that good. If you've owned three LS cars like I have, you'd probably say the same thing.

The 1992 LS in question was bought new. I've spent maybe $3,000 in all those scheduled maintenance issues (5K to 91K) services. The car has always started on the first turn of the key, and never has had any mechanical issues. I've been limited to replacement of a couple of light bulbs totaling $3. Ah, yes, I had the rear shocks replaced b/c the floaty Lexus ride was too much for me. Total cost $325 at a Lexus dealer. (That was an elective procedure).

The car was recently hit (Left Front Side) at 35 MPH by an idiot driver running a red light. Repairs totaled $7,500. So I can only attest to the first 11 years, as any data now will be skewed.

Keep in mind I am the original owner of my 1992. Most of those cars you read about are on their third or fourth owner. Relevance? They probably are cutting corners on maintenance. (as is the case with most lux cars that age) I find it irritating people seem to think they can service these cars at Jiffy Lube or the local gas station..They then complain when something breaks due to lack of scheduled maintenance.

Lexus focuses on Preventative maintenance, so I can see why I've had such little issues with the car. Of course I've had brake pads replaced, but again nothing than the normal deal. I'm sure someone can provide the numbers and confirm my suspicion that a LS car will have lower down time and cheaper repair costs Long term.

I can understand your feelings. I've owned MB cars (1988 300 SE), a Jag XJ6, and a Lincoln in the past. I buy cars in cash and for the long term. Like most educated consumers out there I want the best experience for the money. It's what made me switch from MB. I didn't feel the product justified the price premium. It's a matter of opinion.

Good debating with you as always,
SV

jstyle · February 2004

Exterior isn't all that nice but look at that old style BMW interior...Wow a drivers cockpit again!!!

http://www.germancarfans.com/printablenews.cfm/newsid/2040216.005

ljflx · February 2004

I actually like the exterior better than current car. But I just don't like the Audi corporate grill.

carnaught · February 2004

Not sure either about the front grill however.

pablo_l · February 2004

The design, especially of the interior, looks a bit Japanese standard edition to me. Nowhere near enough of the usual Audi sharp elegance. The high grill is very clumsy, it makes the design look aged. The classic inverted U shape is not classic Audi, it's more classic NSU of the 1930s, which Audi acquired sometime in the early 70s.

anthonycecil · February 2004

I seriously contemplated the Bentley..Contacted dealer, and really like the car..I like the design, and with past experience with a Jag, know the interior will be like no other.

Shortly ofter the above, I went to Miami, and the hotel attendants parked car,and other services. It is quite crowded there, and one really needs to know where one is going..I decided against this type (expensive) of car, as I would not be comfortable with the thought of it getting dinged or scraped..It is enough thought with the two year old Lexus(newness has warn off). If I had a garage, and used the car sparingly it would be a different story..Right now thankfully the winter is going to turn into spring, and the sap will cover the car..I am sure you will enjoy the Continental...Tony

lexus0622 · February 2004

Tony, I understand your concern. I had the same feeling about my 1992 LS400 the first day I had it out. Then I realized that I would never truly enjoy the car if "protecting it" was a lingering concern. So, after that first day (like bringing your 1st born into his/her new home) I cut those cords free and accepted that they would be dings and scratches. It's been great ever since -- dings and all!

ksurg · February 2004

I've been waffling a long time now on leasing or purchasing a new vehicle. Recently I decided on leasing a luxury vehicle, which ironically is where I started.
In re entering the leasing market it is clear that some of the standard price considerations don't apply especially if you plan on turning over the vehicle at lease end. For instance, a 745i can be leased cheaper than an A8L given the lower residual on the Audi despite the higher MSRP on the BMW. The same is true in comparing a XJ-8 vs. LS430.
Next is research will only get you so far. I'm not debating JD powers, intellichoice or our host Edmunds...but does everyone always agree on appearance or ease of operation? Several days ago I drove a 745i that was unprepped and not programmed. My impression was that it was indeed deep in complicated technology but for me the layout was intuitive and reasonably laid out. Maybe for those of us who own planes or boats certain types of technology are less daunting. Interestingly anyone who thinks auto technology and the landscape of the cockpit won't change will probably be disappointed. Someone recently commented that "rich businessmen won't buy a car that requires a teenager to drive." I don't know about anyone else but my teenagers are growing up quick. I recently saw a auto mag with "auto's of the future." The layout doesn't even resemble a present day car, in fact there was no obvious gearshift and no foot pedals! So much for easily accessible audio controls.
The point I'm getting to is that major changes in technology seem to meet a lot of resistance. BMW took a lot of heat for a vehicle that may turn out to be the link between the auto of today and tomorrow. If guilty, their mistake was releasing the technology before perfected and maybe before we were ready for it. The whole situation reminds me of other areas of technology where people focused on the downsides and resisted change. What office still functions efficiently without faxes, computers, DSL...
With the above said I am leaning towards the 745i but felt compelled to write this given the expectation the 7 series was poorly conceived and designed. For the record other vehicles driven included the S500, A8L, XJ-8 and the venerable LS430(seemingly this boards favorate...please let's not review the reliability issue again).

merc1 · February 2004

I forgot to mention someting in that post this morning. Instead of a Bentley Conti GT, what about an Aston-Martin DB9? It's a stunner, easily for me the best looking car making the rounds at this year's autoshows.

sv7887,

Point taken. Older luxury cars that haven't been maintained like yours are the ones that most people get I guess, because I see a lot more being done on early 90's LS' (second hand) than that. The Lexus "experience" just isn't for me...

jstyle,

That is the exact same thing I said on the A6 board in the future auto section. They're doing what BMW used to, cockpit wise.

Pablo......your comments on the interior are correct also. I expected something along the lines of the A8, but they've done a rather generic layout imo. The whole car has moved towards being generic, nothing like the A8 or A4.

M

designman · February 2004

The whole situation reminds me of other areas of technology where people focused on the downsides and resisted change. What office still functions efficiently without faxes, computers, DSL...

This argument always surfaces and this is my answer.

Around 1984, it was clear to me that the world was going to be turned upside down by computers and those who didnt accept it were going to be in for a rough ride. However this whole digital story is about PRODUCTIVITY... more for less. In 1984 It would take at least 12 people to do my work today. This we cant stop. Its manifest destiny.

The problem with bringing computers into cars is that it is counterproductive, unlike office computers. It takes more effort now to adjust what should be simple climate control and radio functions. What used to take one move now takes several. At least if it cut production costs for the auto makers you could make an argument but I doubt this is the case. Its glitz and change for the sake of change, not progress.

I never cease to be amazed at how the ergonomics in my $24K Subaru are superior to that of my $48K BMW. In the Subaru it takes one move to change the heating direction while in the BMW it sometimes takes several. The BMW cockpit does look more impressive though and I suspect having an LCD screen light up the new cockpits will have the same effect. Technology and the APPEARANCE of technology has always been part of the BMW countenance even though owning a BMW has always been somewhat of a pain in the butt because of it.

Then theres the BMW ride, so good that we just accept the shorcomings. BMW had better watch its step though. This current schism is like nothing weve ever seen before. What with the controversial styling there appears to be a limit to what the BMW technophile will put up with.

mfullmer · February 2004

For those that use the technology how it intended to be used, it IS a timesaver.

Take electronic climate control - I use it the way it is intended. It is set at the temperature that I like and on "Auto". The only manual adjustment I make is when I turn the A/C button on or off in response to outside humidity.

And electronic radios - give me a break! Do you not remember having to manually tune radios and get it just right so that it wasn't 1/2 on and 1/2 off the station? No need to do that with the electronic radio of today.

What about memory seats? Talk about a time-saver. When you have two cars that two people drive 1/2 and 1/2 it saves a lot of time.

designman · February 2004

I was referring to BMW and iDrive. Do you think for a minute that I'm calling for the return of vacuum tubes and the like?

mfullmer · February 2004

I thought you were referring to all electronic systems.

Yes, the BMW version does make it much harder to do simple steps.

ljflx · February 2004

Post 4176 - great post. Couldn't agree with you more on excess technology being counter productive. The dashboard and console technology is supposed to be complimentary and secondary to the car, not overpowering to it.

ksurg - good luck on whatever car you choose. The lease prices you talk about are indeed changing the landscape. As I posted a few times - I can get a $77k 745 at the same lease ptrice as a $70k LS430. That is with having negotiated the LS430 and not even having begun negotiating the 745. I'm not interested in the 745 but my experience is MB and Lexus have lease pricing in the S-500 and LS430 that more truly reflect the MSRP's of both cars whereas BMW is heavily subsidizing the 745 lease deals. No one should buy the 745 outright. Much smarter move is to lease and buy at lease end. Even the LS430 leans that way though it is a real close call depending on what you think you could get with the upfront principal you'd NOT be laying out.

ksurg · February 2004

I don't necessarily believe that BMW executed all the technology well in the 745i. To some extent all manufacturers are guilty of sensationalizing their products or putting in useless features( I'm still trying to figure out why I want a rear video cam). As for BMW they are still improving idrive. Though not perfect the '04 version is better. I don't really agree with the technology not enhancing auto function no more than I agree with a manual shift being more efficient than F1 paddles or a SMG transmission. Is it more fun for me to drive a manual... sometimes!
Progress is going to continue and at times we need to stay flexible and willing to change our perspectives. As I said in my last post, BMW was guilty of releasing a vehicle that was a ways short of adequate testing to assure the first customers didn't become beta testers. That part is hard to forgive and I hope they learned their lesson. But I'm in the market now and find to my surprise the BMW is a pretty nice vehicle for the lease price.

syswei · February 2004

I love technology, but imho technology should be used to improve ease of use. I have not tried out idrive but from what I understand it takes something like five steps just to set a radio station into memory, compared to one step for pretty much any other car. Seems like a giant leap backward from a usability standpoint, and adding that many steps to what should be a simple process (slightly) compromises safety, too.

lovemyclk · February 2004

"An innovation, to be effective, has to be simple and has to be focused. It should do only one thing, otherwise, it confuses. All effective innovations are breathtakingly simple. Indeed, the greatest praise an innovation can receive is for people to say: This is obvious. Why didn't I think of it?" - Peter Drucker

It's not just the innovation itself, but also the execution that satisfies. Lexus excels at this, the Germans, in general, are quite pleased with their engineering prowess... and well they should be. My 2003 530 SP is the culmination of a 7-year model run and is as close to automotive perfection as I have driven.

I understand the German approach to engineering, but do not believe they give much credibility to the "soft science" of ergonomics. It's not the concepts they rightfully introduce, its the execution that confounds the intended buyer at times.

That said, the new 7 is quite a piece of engineering and appears to be screwed together beautifully. Sure drives well also!

sv7887 · February 2004

Hi All,
I'm abit of a purist on the technology front. I see where modern technology has it's place, but it should not be too intrusive. Maybe it's just me, but I notice all the high end manufacturers in a rush to cram as many electronic toys into the cars as they can. That's probably why quality is suffering. I only think Jaguar has done a great job of ensuring the driver has the latest toys that don't distract from the overall experience.

Is there really a need for all these complicated electronics? The more complex the design, the more issues you're going to face. We're buying cars, not F-22's!

Speaking of Jaguar..How come there is no talk about them? This seems to be a Lexus vs Germany dominated forum..Any news on the reliability of the new XJ?

Thanks,
SV

ksurg · February 2004

I recently drove a XJ-8 and was impressed. I didn't like the previous generation but the new one is completely different. There used to be a poster by the name of Donfenn who owns an XJR with a lot of info on the Jags. Maybe he's still around.
Overall I would put the XJ series on the short list to consider(it came out # 2 on the Car and Diver comparison). However, my wife doesn't like the styling and I'm not a fan of the J-gate. Do you think touch screens are more sensible than a joy stick or other pointing device? I've been wondering.

jamesfletcher2 · February 2004

ksurg,

After repeatedly telling BMW I was not interested in their 7-Series, I recently heard from them to inform me that the 2005 restyled 7-Series should hopefully be available in late spring. Although I still do not like the appearance of the 7-Series from what I was able to see from a couple of pictures the front-end all the way to the A-pillar and the lights were significantly improved. However, even though there appear to be slight changes to the rear-end and trunk lid if was not enough to solve the serious problem the have with the rear of the car (in my opinion). They also said that there would be some improvements to the iDrive but did not elaborate.

My point is that if you can wait a few months you can get into an improved 7-Series that should be more satisfying.

I hope this is helpful.

JF

ksurg · February 2004

Interesting info but what are your sources? I've scoured the internet, BMW of NA, friends, family, salespeople and everyone else with an opinion and no one seems to anticipate any significant cosmetic changes to the 745i in the next couple of years. It wouldn't be first time they've kept close wraps on a change but this one seems like it is further off then you are suggesting. I'm willing to hold off for a little while if this is true.

jamesfletcher2 · February 2004

ksurg,

A multi-store BMW dealer I have purchased from before and know personally. The only thing he was not certain of at this point was the exact time frame it will hit the US shores after appearing in Europe very soon. He said that BMW is pulling out all of the stops to get the re-style out to try to overcome customer acceptance problems with the original "Bangle'd" 7-Series.

From what I could gather, BMW dealers are having one hell of a time trying to move the current 7-Series and monthly sales are dropping in spite of incentives that BMW is throwing at the 7-Series. My take was that he can not wait for the 2005 model and does not want to get stuck holding too many 2004s.

Although I would like to, I don't get to spend much time on other auto Web site. However, you might want to check the German Car Fan site (I don't have the exact address handy on this computer). Maybe some of the other posters know it.

JF

shipo · February 2004

While I too can find no confirmation of any cosmetic work being done for the 2005 7-Series, I will say that this isn't the first time I've heard tell of a lifted 7. It seems that BMW-NA might be the only source for that information, and they might even request a non-disclosure before they tell you. Can't hurt to ask though.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ksurg · February 2004

Thanks for the information. I'll try to check it out. I need a new lease by this Summer. I'm also on the list for the V10 M5(E60). The release date for that vehicle keeps getting pushed back. Now it sees that it will be an'06 release in '05 instead of an '05 in late '04.

jamesfletcher2 · February 2004

ksurg,

I also like looks of the new BMW 5-Series much better then the 7-Series (its looks just totally turn me off). I looked the 5-Series over closely at a recent auto show and warmed up to it more then I expected to.

I have read and heard especially good things about the new 5-Series variable steering system that comes with the 5-Series Sport Package. However, some reviews before all this cold whether really did not like the cooling ability of its new technology air conditioning system.

Good luck.

JF

merc1 · February 2004

I wouldn't expect too many wholesale changes to the 7-Series. They aren't going to spend the money to change the hard points. What they'll do is try to smooth out the front end like the new 5, and try to make that trunklid a little less offensive. The biggest improvements will be in the interior. Simpler seat controls, and most importantly an updated (i.e. simplified) Idrive system. There is also a new short wheelbase 760i, that just debuted at the Chicago auto show, it's about 5-6K less than the 760 "Li" model.

M

ksurg · February 2004

I'm confused because they just made major changes to the idrive with the '04 model. As for the seats.. for god's sake if a person can't figure them out then they probably shouldn't be driving. All kidding aside they're not that complicated. I agree that they might change some of the exterior styling. Lately I've been impressed how little info were getting about upcoming Euro cars, including MB, Audi and BMW. If nothing else the timing has been almost unpredictable.
For what it's worth I did fire off a email to BMW of NA asking about changes and suggesting that I would cancel my order if they didn't get back to me one way or another.

merc1 · February 2004

Some updates...

The production CLS-Class Coupe will be shown. The G55 AMG gets the same supercharged version of the 5.5L V8 as the SL/CL and E55 AMG models. The world's fastest Nato rescue vehicle..lol.

The new SLK-Class will be presented as will the C-Class facelift.

The isn't any mention of the SL65 AMG, yet.

M

maxhonda99 · February 2004

Spy pics of the slightly redesigned BMW 7-series are available at thecarconnection.com.

Here is the link:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6860&sid=17- 8&n=158

maxhonda99 · February 2004

Also, I have seen it mentioned several times that the '05('05.5?) 7-series engine will be upped to 4.8 liters and approx. 400bhp.

ksurg · February 2004

Great stuff! It makes more sense that an '05 will be here by Summer or more likely Fall.

merc1 I pretty much agree with all you said.

sv7887 · February 2004

Hi All,
I favor the touchscreen design, you spend less time fiddling in order to get your job done.

Here's a thought: In the F-15, fighter pilots can access nearly all relevant functions on stick. They know the buttons by touch and can dial up the function on the Heads Up Display. I realize I'm talking about a $40 Million plus fighter jet, but this was developed in the mid 1970's. I know BMW has implemented a HUD display (Option on 5-Series?) so why not take it further one step? I think it would avoid distractions by having everything projected in front of the driver.

The BMW 7 just isn't my thing. I've looked at one but didn't feel inclined to drive it. I'm willing to bet it's far more exciting to drive than my LS cars. As for all these high end cars: AMG et all, how many of these do they sell? From a marketing perspective why do they offer them? Prestige?

Thanks,
SV

shipo · February 2004

I rented a car with a "Touch Screen" years ago. :-P Said screen was used (if I remember correctly) for the A/C and Audio (then Radio) controls. I maintain to this day that installing such equipment in a car would be the single most dangerous thing a car manufacturer could do. Why? Simple, no tactile feed back. So? That means that you need to take your eyes off of the road so that you can see what to "Touch".

If a car is ever put on the market again with that type of interface as the only way of controlling certain equipment, I will never own it.

Best Regards,
Shipo

P.S.

Gee wizz, can you tell that I have an opinion on this issue? ;-)

ksurg · February 2004

Plausible denial. There is no way BMW is going to admit or deny changes to the upcoming 745i. They claim that they don't have any info about the '05 or when it will be released. They will only have info when it goes into production( normally this would be in Sept. but could be next month). They specifically refused to send me written confirmation of this. In other words they weren't willing to on record about not having any info at this time. Although I understand their position it makes me suspicious and angry. If I am buying a $78K auto months from a new release and am savvy enough to contact them I deserve a more honest and informative answer.

jamesfletcher2 · February 2004

ksurg,

The front-end of the 7-Series pictures I was shown looked much like the one in the car connection link that maxhonda99 posted. I have to admit that since I was not overly interested I did not study them closely. I saw three pictures - one directly from the front, one looking at the side and front from an angle (passenger side) and one from the passenger side looking at the rear but only exposing the corner of the rear-end. My impression was very much like the text on the link - that the car was rounded-out on all quarters and some of the more pronounced BMW styling clues (e.g., kidney-type grill) from generations of BMWs were somewhat back (although only slightly).

I do not believe that he had more pictures and did not ask but they appeared to be official BMW photos. I personally know 3 - 4 owners of car dealerships and it is just like merc1 says. They get significant information about upcoming models months before official introduction.

My personal experiences agree with merc1 that they want to keep you in the dark so that you will buy what they currently have to sell and BMW North America does the same. Quite frankly, being a businessman I can not blame them.

However, he seemed very hopeful that they would have them by late summer instead of September/October. I did ask him if by late summer he meant June and he said "yes". As I mentioned yesterday, I distinctly got the idea that he (and other BMW dealers) want the restyled 7-Series as much as any BMW owner or prospective buyer.

I wish that I could provide you more but I am not really a prospective BMW buyer. I am trying to find out what the totally re-engineered 2006 MB S-Class is going to look like and what new technology it will have (e.g., brake-by-wire, etc). I am seriously considering leasing a current S-Class and then waiting for the 2006 S-Class and the 2007 Lexus LS. That way, if I do not like the new ones I can keep the current S-Class model which I believe is the best looking luxury car available in the US. I had two friends that did the same thing with the former BMW 7-Series and when they saw the new one they felt like geniuses.

JF

jamesfletcher2 · February 2004

merc1,

Do you have any new insight of when MB will first show the new S-Class? I am assuming that it will be either Geneva in March 2005 or Frankfurt in September 2005. Normal patterns would mean that the US would then see it in either October 2005 or April 2006.

Thanks,

JF

merc1 · February 2004

Your speculation:

"I am assuming that it will be either Geneva in March 2005 or Frankfurt in September 2005. Normal patterns would mean that the US would then see it in either October 2005 or April 2006."

is exactly correct. It all depends on which show the car debuts at. For instance the CLS is debuting at Geneva, so it'll be here by late fall. Your analysis about the S is very correct.

M

merc1 · February 2004

BTW, nobody will be disappointed to know that a LS430 can behave like that, of course it can because after all it is patterned after the German car that does it best. If you ever you ever drive a Benz at that speed you'll see what I mean.

M

merc1 · February 2004

Been surfing - one other thing about MB's plans for the next S and CL.

They are going to introduce the CL65 and S65 later this year as 05' models, which leads me to believe that the next S and CL will be 2007 models, on sale in early 2006 instead of fall 2005. The 2006 model year will be an abbreviated one. I've see this happen before, as with the 1999 S-Class. It was cut short in the spring of 1999 to make way for the 2000 model. Ditto for the 2002 SL.

M

jamesfletcher2 · February 2004

merc1,

What is your take on the prospective styling and technology of upcoming 2007 S-Class versus the current one? Some of the spy photos I saw on a German car site seemed to indicate its exterior will be a much larger version of the new E-Class with some continued styling evolution (which is typical of MB)? As I have mentioned, I really like the styling of the current S-Class which is only out done within MB by the big CL coupe (but I need four doors).

However, although I could go with the new styling even though I am not sure it is better, what really worries me is new technology introduction. You brought up a really good example recently based on spy photos that seem to indicate a MB version of BMW iDrive or Audi's similar system. I am really a big fan of NAV/etc setups with a touch screen coupled with conventional buttons like the current S-Class and Lexus LS.

Another technology that I hear is going to absolutely make it to the new S-Class is electronic brake-by-wire. Reviewers and owners of the new E-Class seem to universally hate the lack of proper feel and poor modulation of brake-by-wire. Sometimes it just seems like MB is obsessed with adding new technology for the sake of it and do not realize that most of their luxury car customers don't want these technology items or the quality glitches they seem to bring.

JF

michael_mattox · February 2004

Have you driven an 04 sport or an 01 or 02 or 03 LS430????

If not how can you compare the two????

bluestar1 · February 2004

"BTW, nobody will be disappointed to know that a LS430 can behave like that, of course it can because after all it is patterned after the German car that does it best"

Sigh !

Now the LS is a clone of the S !!! Only in your minds, Merc1, only in your minds.... Ever driven a late model LS ('01 - '04) to make such assertion above ? Or is it one of those you know which is owned by a brother of a friend who is a nephew to aunt Mae, you kinda saw on the driveway or musta read about in the auto mag..... Yada yada yada.... Really very boring stuff this constant MB coping by Lexus. Very boring indeed. Give it a rest will ya ?

merc1 · February 2004

Sigh is right, as you guys continually miss the point in your rush to deride anything I post.

Read ljflx's post on the LS board!

My point was that the LS430 was designed like a German car for faultless high-speed travel. Are you two denying this? You're telling me that Toyota made large, heavy, high-speed touring sedans with these traits before Lexus was invented to compete with Mercedes and BMW? I simply meant that the LS430's high speed behavior is patterned after the German cars it competes with. Now if your position is that it isn't as good at high speed then fine I'll not argue with that, but well all know that won't be your postion will it?

Are you really that sensitive about the truth on copying (as it pertains to the LS430's styling) that even when nobody says anything about it you're having flashbacks of long-ago conversations?

These assumptions and lack of reading the preceeding post(s), before responding, is what needs to be given a "rest".

M

merc1 · February 2004

We're definitely on the same page in reguards to styling of the current S and especially the CL.

I personally expect the next S to be what you said, an evolution of the new E-Class, but with a slightly different rear end. I'n not sure if the next car (just going by the spy photos and various drawings) will look as good as the current car, especially the Sport version of the current S. IMO only the A8 even compares looks wise. The 7-Series continues to be hideous to me.

It might be a little too early to speculate about its styling without a definite drawing or an uncamoflouged prototype being caught during testing.

I've read where the brake by wire of the E and SL won't make it into the next S due to cost reasons. This sounds bass-ackwards to me, simply because the S is much more expensive than the E-Class anyway. So who knows what they'll do there. Incredibly "electromechanical" brakes are being developed for the S, but not at the initial launch. Automatic lane correction has (thankfully) been pushed back, due to concerns about all this tech debuting in a totally new car, which will also include (rarely for MB) an all need engine range also.

So far everything says that Mercedes will adopt some type of idrive controller combined with the next generation of Comand. The controller will reportedly give the driver a choice between using the conventional buttons or not. From what the British press says, the controller won't take the place of basic controls like in the BMW. I must say that the spy photograph presented by autospies looks just like the 7-Series BMW, right down to the air vents and gearshift, scary. I for one can't believe Mercedes would copy the styling of the 7-Series interior, that would be an unprecedented move (read: mistake) on Mercedes' part.

We should know more this summer when they'll have to start testing more and more prototypes out in the open in anticipation for next year's debut.

M

lexus0622 · February 2004

OK all you BMW, Lexus, MB, et al diehards. Open your eyes and see all of your design elements (exterior, at least) on the KIA Amanti!

I won't argue that the Amanti doesn't belong on this board, but they aren't sweating anybody's comments of copying. It seems to be working for them. Getting 2-3 Amanti's for the price of one of our regular targets of discussion (argument?) may really be the hidden value here.

Hold it, everyone. Don't get apoplexic! Stay calm and enjoy a little humor.

bluestar1 · February 2004

Agree it does not belong on this board, but it is a blatant copy of the MB E-class. Oopsssey.... There goes the *copy* word again. But who cares ? If it works for Kia, more power to them. A 2004 Kia Armanti retails for $23,5K in our local paper. That's an insane price for a supposedly lux car. Even a bland Accord EX V6 sells north of that price. I'd rather own the Accord EX V6 than a Kia Armanti, regardless of how lux (?) the latter is. Buy an Armanti but don't ever try to re-sell it cos you'd be taking a bath, way worse than the lux sector laggards - Jaguar/Range Rover.

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