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After reading the latter story I can tell you I would hate the day I bought the Maserati Q if I ever were to buy one. It's really a sports car dressed up as a 4 door luxury sedan. The Audi blows it away as far as I am concerned. And you know where the Audi stands with me. The Audi also blows it away in looks - imo. This wasn't a road comparo - it was just a review of a new entrant vs an established one with luxury as the benchmark. What is funny though is that there are 100k large sedan lux cars sold each year - give or take - and these two will only represent 6% of those sales. I'm not at all sure why the A8 sells so poorly given all that Audi puts into it (engineering wise and marketing wise - I do see plenty of A8 advertisements) as well as its competitive price. It's a great car and deserves better but the Maserati Q looks like it better be kept to a low production quota. It's a name people will aspire to, and it's a sports car people will aspire to but as a lux car it will probably disappoint (except for the fact that it's a Maserati, its different and thus will get a lot of stares) - unless you really want a 4 door sports car and not a lux car.
Gee, that is exactly the point I was trying to make, and you understood it perfectly. The root of MB's problems is having to adjust to that. Older models also stayed in production for 10 years or more in some cases. This practice is no longer competitive, and 7 years is about the norm now. The Germans are still learning how to build a cheaper car in less time, for less time and for less money, not their specialty.
Nope, I haven't driven the A8 or Phaeton. Yes, I have driven the entire 7-Series range. I drove the 745Li and 760Li. I was able to keep the 760Li for about an hour since nobody else was in line to drive it BMW's charity event last fall. Awesome car, but too complicated to master in such a short drive. It's not even idrive that bothers me most it's the styling. I simply can't stand it. Now believe it or not, I'm starting to like the 5-Series. Gulp!
Well you know how much I like the A8, but I'm quite fond of the Quattroporte too. The biggest mistake Maserati made with the Quattroporte is not offering a conventional automatic transmission. Thus it will remain a sports car with 4 doors. I look for their connection with Audi to yield them a proper 6-speed auto in a few years. I think the car will sell well though because people looking for regular luxury cars, MB/Lexus/BMW etc, aren't going to be interested, and those who want something different with 4 doors have just found their ride.
The SL55 AMG remains my favorite car on the market period. Either that or a CL. No Boxster for me, surprisingly I've never like it much.
As usual you've received your mags before me.
motownusa,
Unless you know something I don't, 1998's change over to SOHC isn't even close to being one of MB's problems. The new SOHC engines are much simpler compared to the old DOHC I6 and V8s, which were great, or better depending on who you ask, but they weren't perfect either.
M
It's amazing how that bit of news got around. The "masses" seem aware of the repair hassles, and IMO that has resulted in the kiss of death for both new and used units. Here in the Bay Area you can pick up a late-model showroom A8 privately for the high-teens! Owners have told me they advertise theirs at giveaway prices and go months without a call.
It's a fantastic car by the way. If I lived in a snowy region I'd have one in a trice.
Merc: Are you going to start bashing Masers now?
What are you talking about??
M
It is the 500hp V10, 7-Speed Sequential Transmission BMW M5.
E55, RS6, S-Type R, XJR, S55 and any other sedan with sporting pretensions you're done.
M
Pretty good looking except for the front end, as with the sedan. Actually I like it better than the Phantom. Those trick, rear-hinged doors won't make production though.
See Maybach.ru. and autonews.com or car.kak.net.
M
In the USA, Audi's downfall in my opinion is simply image. It is not regarded as $70k plus material, it's seen as a Euro ride that clearly ranks below Mercedes and BMW in prestige, whereas in Germany it is a BMW peer. I don't think most people know or care about the light metal structure, and if anything I think most customers would see it as an actual advantage, since it suports a high-tech image of innovation that luzury buyers typically like. Few people plan on crashing their cars to the point where they need extensive bodywork...
You are correct - the Germans have to learn to build the cars differently in today's highly competitive market and at the same MB has to maintain an image above everyone else somehow in doing it. That is no easy task particularly given that mastering sophisticated electronics (which is a big part of the problem) favors the Japanese. In the past they were able to build the best and charge the most and then people held the cars for a lomg long time. Even though the cars were expensive the value was excellent because of the ownership longevity. But that was a different market in a different era before the technology and Wall street booms.
Let me know what you think of the Automobile article on the Maserati. Also why do you think the A8 is such a poor seller? A throwback to the Audi accleration problem in the past maybe? I always thought that was overblown.
Selling cars without code written - as per the story - is rather scary. In the computer world we call that beta testing. In the auto world peope are paying $40-$80k+ for cars that certified mechanics, from the manufacturers themselves, don't know how to fix (certain things but it is the most problem oriented things) and even worse have no reference manuals.
That article is probably the most honest article you will ever see in an automobile magazine and is written from a consumer - not enthusiast - viewpoint.
As others have stated, Audi has an image problem in the country. The unintended acceleration problem isn't on too many people's minds today, but I'm sure it hasn't been completely forgotten. When I think of the idiots behind that it makes me sick. It's funny how none of those cases ever showed a defect with the car. Audi was guilty of placing the pedals in their manual transmission cars too close together for fat American's feet. You know heel and toe style. Anyway, it's pretty much Pablo stated, people just don't think as high of Audi as they do BMW and MB in this country. Their associate with VW doesn't help either, plus the reliability concerns all conspire to keep Audi below BMW and MB when it comes to the A8. Believe it or not even Audi's really hot cars like the RS6 sell out like E55s and M5s do. The dealer here has 3 of them, and has had them for a while now. The E55 moves much faster and the new M5 will be all but unobtainable this fall/winter. Audi just doesn't have the draw with the rich like BMW, and they're even further away from Mercedes-Benz. Mercedes can just about sell whatever they put a star on, not even BMW (Z8, 760Li are examples) can so easily do this.
However the A8 just had its best sales year ever in this country, a whopping 4K cars!! With a new W12 model coming this fall, and a rumor short wheelbase model also arriving at the same time, they might be able to move 5K a year. Still only half of what the XJ does, and about 1/4 of what the S, LS and 7-Series do.
M
How do you think the Germans should solve their reliability problems? First, they got to admit it. Before you can solve a problem, you've to admit you have it. MB's beginning to, I'm not sure VW and BMW know they've a problem.
Second, do not be at the forefront of electronics. I don't think many people will miss idrive. Let the Japanese try out the new electronics in the cars first, and stay half a step behind them. The saying, 'Americans are best at computers, Japanese electronics, German mechanical things' still stands. People buy German cars not because of electronics, but in spite of them.
Third, establish some research centers in Japan, and in China in the future. The Japanese have design and research centers in California and Europe. The big 3 and Germans have zero centers in Japan, I think. They're saying they don't have anything to learn from Japan. Well they're wrong!
Audi was guilty of placing the pedals in their Automatic transmission cars too close together for fat American's feet.
All of the cars that "Unintendedly Accelerated" were automatics, it seems that us manual transmission drivers were able to keep track of our feet a little better. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I was about to put my feet on a diet...Just in case I went insane and wanted to buy an Audi.
I think they should produce both Lexus and Toyota-badged versions. Both brands suffer from a stodgy image.
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Syswei - if a supercar is going to be built it makes no sense to do it as anything but a Lexus. Also that design stays true to the LFS style. It is also a revolutionary car to say the least and defines an entirely new segment that everyone will have to follow in. Now if they build it that will be a car you will wait a long long time for. I can imagine the waiting list.
M
M
I just question the word "unbelievably"
M
Even though there's supposed to be a single designer behind these cars, I also still liken the new 5 and 7 to camels, which of course are horses designed by a committee.
I much prefer the MB design to the BMWs, beccause the MB design is integrated, flows smoothly (jellybeans) from front to back. Not everyone may like the MB, but at least it is harmonious.
With regard to the CLS, I'm pulling my hair out over it because it is so close yet so far on my score sheet. My first impression was very positive sleek, curvaceous and aerodynamic. I believe they had great aspirations with the curves, but the curves are lacking in sophistication too simple. For instance, the curve of the beltline, and the crease just beneath the beltline, are just too darn symmetrical and parallel.
And I don’t like how my attention is always drawn to the rear door. It’s the wedge working. The front is a little squeezed. Compare the areas just above the front and rear wheels disparate framing some bulk in the doors.
I like the treatment of the front lamps, but they clearly copied Porsche although not as shapely as Porsche.
I really wish they would lose that pinched-putty treatment of the trunk it’s just so out of nowhere.
I’ve always liked five-spoke wheels but these need a little shape and change in direction not enough thought in them.
MB interiors have always been kind to my taste but this one is a potpourri of random, uncalculated shapes. I particularly don’t care for the circular vents and heavy application of wood.
For the most part I like the exterior of the CLS, particularly the grand aerodynamic picture, but I don’t I believe it was finessed enough rushed a little too sketchy. I have to believe the diversity across MB model platforms has precluded the nth degree of effort that a fully implemented design deserves. But due to the disposable, just-do-it world we now live, I fear this is becoming the norm across the board.
Gee, I wish I still had some hair of my own to pull out. (:-/
I agree with you though, with the demise of the 5-Series (at least in my eyes), I feel like a person without a country. Lots of cars have certain "right" features, however, virtually everything currently on the market is just wide enough of the mark to make me wonder if I will still be driving my E39 for another eight or ten years.
Best Regards,
Shipo
No nav, no air suspension, no Idrive, no power windows, no power mirrors, no sunroof, no leather.
All that for a 40-45K tag, and I'm there!
Well said. I try to stay optimistic though. I think if I can't get passionate about a car to replace my 530, I'll just save the money and go back to driving cars with plain 'ol economy and utility. Then hopefully the sports cars will still offer up the thrills. I can't imagine them going south... knock on wood!
Best Regards,
Shipo
Lexus-class reliability and quality, class leading 340 hp V8 333 ftlbs torque VVT w/32 titanium valves. ABS/EBD/TRAC/VSC, 18" wheels, 5 speed sport / automatic. You can get it without the moonroof, nav, etc. but you are stuck with leather, though the seats are ventilated and highly bolstered.
Should sticker out around $45,000 and given its lack of popularity, probably can be had for a substantial discount.
It's probably one of the best car buys in this category if you are more interested in how it drives than how it looks.
It seems like to me that these newer autotranny's offer the best of both worlds - without a clutch to bother with! If you want to select gears you can. If you want to run through the gated notches you can. If you want to put it in drive you can.
So, for my money (and I suspect for VCheng's as well) only a transmission with a stick and a third pedal need apply. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
From an option standpoint the BMW doesn't have four wheel drive but the A8 is not yet available in a SWB model.
Lastly its hard to talk about reliability and get trustworthy info, especially since the A8L is so new. My personal experience having owned an A6 4.2 and 540i was that the Audi had far more problems but most of them were not serious and were fixed promptly by the dealership. I recently was in your position and went with the 745i because the deals were to good to pass up. So far I love the car. The whole quirky idrive thing is beyond me... everything seems intelligently if not intuitively designed despite what you read on this page( keep in mind that idrive before '04 may have been a different animal). IMO MMI is no different. Good luck with whatever you decide they're both great cars!
We just added an Element to the family for the teens and as a 'workmobile'. We got the front wheel drive, 5 speed manual combination.
I got it that way because I couldn't get an inexpensive vehicle with the multi-functionality like an Element that also had TRAC and VSC (yet). So I prefer the freedom that the manual gives me in inclement weather.
If it had TRAC/VSC to go along with the ABS/EBD, I would have bought a AWD/Automatic in a blink.
Cars with TRAC/VSC/EBD/ABS, etc. flat out drive everyone but a very good professional driver. The Porsche Cayenne / VW Toureg being a very good example.
Must be one of those 'eye of the beholder' things.
If you have ever driven an old (old by today's date, but current day at the time of driving) Fiat, BMW, Aston Martin, even VW Bug, you would know the difference a left foot clutch guiding/right hand gear shifting/body tensioning/total control feeling experience makes. It's a total body experience that has no equal in today's electronic push button/flip switch controls. I, for one, have come to accept the change. But I surely miss the subtle physical choices a true manual transmission permits. They are just not the same.
Any other thoughts??
As always I enjoy your analysis on styling, the reason I asked your opinion of the CLS in the first place. Ah...the CLS, another car I'm starting like more and more, though it is about as far away from traditional MB design as possible. Your comments about its shape, lines and treatments are spot on, imo. I personally would have liked a blocky or more squarish back end like the S on the CLS. I agree about the interior, though my problem is more or less they used too many E-Class pieces, this car should have been completely different and daring, like the exterior is, for a MB that is.
____________
The transmission debate. No automatic or SMG, F1, or DSG type tranny will take the place of a true 3-pedal, lever operated manual for the purest of enthusiasts. No question. That said, my vote for the next best thing is Audi's DSG gearbox. The transmission is different from the rest of the automated manuals out there right now. Unlike the SMG/F1 type trannnies offered by BMW, Ferrari, Aston-Martin, Mercedes, Toyota, and Maserati, the Audi DSG unit functions pretty well in automatic mode, which truth be told is how most of these trannies will be operated most of the time, otherwise the person would have bought the traditional manual in the first place. The Audi system uses dual clutches and doesn't give that jerky, hesitation of all the other auto/manuals. Test drive the Audi TT 3.2 if you don't believe me. No it still doesn't shift as seamlessly as regular torque converter automatic, but its real close and much smoother than BMW's M3 SMG system is in automatic mode. Ferrari and Toyota MR2 owners complain the loudest about how awful there F1-style trannies behave in automatic mode while in stop-n-go traffic. I've hear similar stories about the Aston-Martin Vanquish and Maserati Sypder too. Which is why I'm shocked that Maserati would see a luxury sedan, the Quattroporte with essentially the same (with some changes) gearbox.
A regular automatic with manual shifting capability isn't even close to comparing to a true manual when it comes to feeling in control of or being at one with the car.
M
Car and Driver has also stated that these two companies have more effect on each other than their competition does. This was stated most recently in their comparison of the CLK55 AMG and M3 a while back.
Autospies recently published photos from the Detroit show showing BMW head designer, Chris Bangle and some other top BMW execs inspecting the Mercedes GST concept crossover.
It is reported that BMW now has at the very least has a plan on the drawing board to develop a GST like vehicle. So far the rumor mill has them pegged as the V-Series: V3, V5 and possibly a V7..you know to mirror the X3, X5 and the once proposed X7.
Now Automotive News is showing BMW CEO Helmut Panke in the front seat of the CLS 500, while BMW production Chief Burkhard Göschel "looks on" at the Geneva motor show.
Now of course BMW has influenced Mercedes to *try* and go sportier, especially with the C-Class. The C-Class for 2005 gets another round of chassis improvements in keeping with this belief of BMW's influence.
Will Mercedes go for an idrive like system in the 2006 S-Class? Will BMW build a 4-door Coupe-like vehicle if the CLS is a hit?
Interesting stuff.
M
If Cien ever makes it to the street, I would seriously consider it based on style alone. Any brains, performance and reliability that comes with it would only be icing on the cake. Too much to ask for? I suppose so. But this is not your father’s Cadillac, and it’s no Allante. I really hope they can make a go of it and shed that stigma. There’s a lot of inertia to overcome and I don’t think XLR is going to help the cause. But in any event, Cadillac is indeed providing some interest and worth watching. I know they take a beating in the minds of foreign-car buyers, but I try not to curse the darkness.
The Passat tied in a top category as it had average reliabilty. The Passat commercial with the woman test driving a car and passing an unmarked state trooper is one of the best auto ads I've seen recently. The look on the troopers face as he's passed, the auto salesman's face when he realizes what just happened and the excitement on the woman's face as she looks at the auto saleman for approval to pass beforehand all desreve Clio awards.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/08/pf/autos/CR_best_cars/index.htm?c- - - nn=yes