High End Luxury Cars

ljflx · March 2004

You will enjoy Automobile this month despite its cover which is devoted to SUV's. There is a story about the hard to get SL55 and another one about the Quattroporte with the A8L along for a bit of comparison.

After reading the latter story I can tell you I would hate the day I bought the Maserati Q if I ever were to buy one. It's really a sports car dressed up as a 4 door luxury sedan. The Audi blows it away as far as I am concerned. And you know where the Audi stands with me. The Audi also blows it away in looks - imo. This wasn't a road comparo - it was just a review of a new entrant vs an established one with luxury as the benchmark. What is funny though is that there are 100k large sedan lux cars sold each year - give or take - and these two will only represent 6% of those sales. I'm not at all sure why the A8 sells so poorly given all that Audi puts into it (engineering wise and marketing wise - I do see plenty of A8 advertisements) as well as its competitive price. It's a great car and deserves better but the Maserati Q looks like it better be kept to a low production quota. It's a name people will aspire to, and it's a sports car people will aspire to but as a lux car it will probably disappoint (except for the fact that it's a Maserati, its different and thus will get a lot of stares) - unless you really want a 4 door sports car and not a lux car.

merc1 · March 2004

Your post # 4309 is right on the money. They built cars for the long term, and thus were appreciated for such. Now the competition has forced shorter production cycles and more people are leasing so the first impressions are more important than 10 year qualities.

Gee, that is exactly the point I was trying to make, and you understood it perfectly. The root of MB's problems is having to adjust to that. Older models also stayed in production for 10 years or more in some cases. This practice is no longer competitive, and 7 years is about the norm now. The Germans are still learning how to build a cheaper car in less time, for less time and for less money, not their specialty.

Nope, I haven't driven the A8 or Phaeton. Yes, I have driven the entire 7-Series range. I drove the 745Li and 760Li. I was able to keep the 760Li for about an hour since nobody else was in line to drive it BMW's charity event last fall. Awesome car, but too complicated to master in such a short drive. It's not even idrive that bothers me most it's the styling. I simply can't stand it. Now believe it or not, I'm starting to like the 5-Series. Gulp!

Well you know how much I like the A8, but I'm quite fond of the Quattroporte too. The biggest mistake Maserati made with the Quattroporte is not offering a conventional automatic transmission. Thus it will remain a sports car with 4 doors. I look for their connection with Audi to yield them a proper 6-speed auto in a few years. I think the car will sell well though because people looking for regular luxury cars, MB/Lexus/BMW etc, aren't going to be interested, and those who want something different with 4 doors have just found their ride.

The SL55 AMG remains my favorite car on the market period. Either that or a CL. No Boxster for me, surprisingly I've never like it much.

As usual you've received your mags before me.

motownusa,

Unless you know something I don't, 1998's change over to SOHC isn't even close to being one of MB's problems. The new SOHC engines are much simpler compared to the old DOHC I6 and V8s, which were great, or better depending on who you ask, but they weren't perfect either.

M

johncalifornia · March 2004

I think the aluminum body has a LOT to do with it.

It's amazing how that bit of news got around. The "masses" seem aware of the repair hassles, and IMO that has resulted in the kiss of death for both new and used units. Here in the Bay Area you can pick up a late-model showroom A8 privately for the high-teens! Owners have told me they advertise theirs at giveaway prices and go months without a call.

It's a fantastic car by the way. If I lived in a snowy region I'd have one in a trice.

Merc: Are you going to start bashing Masers now?

merc1 · March 2004

"Merc: Are you going to start bashing Masers now? "

What are you talking about??

M

merc1 · March 2004

For all you guys that think big hp is a waste, the biggest exercise in waste has just been revealed in Geneva.

It is the 500hp V10, 7-Speed Sequential Transmission BMW M5.

E55, RS6, S-Type R, XJR, S55 and any other sedan with sporting pretensions you're done.

M

merc1 · March 2004

I don't know how I missed this earlier, but Rolls-Royce also debuted a new car today. Well it's a concept, the 100EX. In reality this is a 2-door convertible version of the Phantom. Think Corniche replacement.

Pretty good looking except for the front end, as with the sedan. Actually I like it better than the Phantom. Those trick, rear-hinged doors won't make production though.

See Maybach.ru. and autonews.com or car.kak.net.

M

lenscap · March 2004

Since you mentioned getting the new Automobile magazine, did you happen to read Jamie Kitman's article titled "Crapulent Luxury"? He rattles through a series of problems with a new Jaguar XJ8, BMW 7 and Mercedes, most dealing with the electronics.

pablo_l · March 2004

Well, it is very successful in Germany, where it claims the title as Autobahn cruising king. Audis by the way in Germany have the reputation for engineering, BMWs for trendy yuppie image, and Mercedes is Germany's image Lexus, though that's been changing. It's interesting to see the different international perceptions on brands.

In the USA, Audi's downfall in my opinion is simply image. It is not regarded as $70k plus material, it's seen as a Euro ride that clearly ranks below Mercedes and BMW in prestige, whereas in Germany it is a BMW peer. I don't think most people know or care about the light metal structure, and if anything I think most customers would see it as an actual advantage, since it suports a high-tech image of innovation that luzury buyers typically like. Few people plan on crashing their cars to the point where they need extensive bodywork...

ljflx · March 2004

When the market changes the manufacturers have to change with it or anticipate and lead it. Leasing was a natural occurrence for volume to be maintained or increased as the prices rose. MB would not have been able to sustain that 80's type of business model profitably long-term unless they became a small niche company. The very high prices opened the door for competion, hence Lexus, and at the same time brought about the desire to drive high luxury cars with minimal money down while your money was put to better use elsewhere. It was actually a normal business check and balance effect and one can argue that the Japanese anticipated this better than the Germans in 1989. This is the business side of auto manufacturing. A new entrant has to change the rules to be successful.

You are correct - the Germans have to learn to build the cars differently in today's highly competitive market and at the same MB has to maintain an image above everyone else somehow in doing it. That is no easy task particularly given that mastering sophisticated electronics (which is a big part of the problem) favors the Japanese. In the past they were able to build the best and charge the most and then people held the cars for a lomg long time. Even though the cars were expensive the value was excellent because of the ownership longevity. But that was a different market in a different era before the technology and Wall street booms.

Let me know what you think of the Automobile article on the Maserati. Also why do you think the A8 is such a poor seller? A throwback to the Audi accleration problem in the past maybe? I always thought that was overblown.

ljflx · March 2004

I read it. That just shows you how they are in over their heads on electronics. I didn't realize MB finished in 31st place of 32 brands in Germany!! Wow.

Selling cars without code written - as per the story - is rather scary. In the computer world we call that beta testing. In the auto world peope are paying $40-$80k+ for cars that certified mechanics, from the manufacturers themselves, don't know how to fix (certain things but it is the most problem oriented things) and even worse have no reference manuals.

That article is probably the most honest article you will ever see in an automobile magazine and is written from a consumer - not enthusiast - viewpoint.

johncalifornia · March 2004

I misread a Maser-bashing post as having been authored by you, when it was not. For some reason I reflexively think of you when I come across a non-Mercedes bash. <G>

merc1 · March 2004

I just got the issue tonight. I haven't read the entire article, but I did see where they said that A8L is the better choice for most luxury car buyers. I agree with that assessment. The Maserati doesn't have the proper transmission to be daily-duty luxury car. I just like the fact that there is such a chic alternative in the class.

As others have stated, Audi has an image problem in the country. The unintended acceleration problem isn't on too many people's minds today, but I'm sure it hasn't been completely forgotten. When I think of the idiots behind that it makes me sick. It's funny how none of those cases ever showed a defect with the car. Audi was guilty of placing the pedals in their manual transmission cars too close together for fat American's feet. You know heel and toe style. Anyway, it's pretty much Pablo stated, people just don't think as high of Audi as they do BMW and MB in this country. Their associate with VW doesn't help either, plus the reliability concerns all conspire to keep Audi below BMW and MB when it comes to the A8. Believe it or not even Audi's really hot cars like the RS6 sell out like E55s and M5s do. The dealer here has 3 of them, and has had them for a while now. The E55 moves much faster and the new M5 will be all but unobtainable this fall/winter. Audi just doesn't have the draw with the rich like BMW, and they're even further away from Mercedes-Benz. Mercedes can just about sell whatever they put a star on, not even BMW (Z8, 760Li are examples) can so easily do this.

However the A8 just had its best sales year ever in this country, a whopping 4K cars!! With a new W12 model coming this fall, and a rumor short wheelbase model also arriving at the same time, they might be able to move 5K a year. Still only half of what the XJ does, and about 1/4 of what the S, LS and 7-Series do.

M

mariner7 · March 2004

It's unbelievable all the glamourous projects VW undertakes: Bugatti, Lambo, Bentley, W12, Phaeton. I'm sure I'm missing 3 or 4. Meanwhile they're losing profits and market shares everywhere.

How do you think the Germans should solve their reliability problems? First, they got to admit it. Before you can solve a problem, you've to admit you have it. MB's beginning to, I'm not sure VW and BMW know they've a problem.

Second, do not be at the forefront of electronics. I don't think many people will miss idrive. Let the Japanese try out the new electronics in the cars first, and stay half a step behind them. The saying, 'Americans are best at computers, Japanese electronics, German mechanical things' still stands. People buy German cars not because of electronics, but in spite of them.

Third, establish some research centers in Japan, and in China in the future. The Japanese have design and research centers in California and Europe. The big 3 and Germans have zero centers in Japan, I think. They're saying they don't have anything to learn from Japan. Well they're wrong!

shipo · March 2004

Just a clarification:

Audi was guilty of placing the pedals in their Automatic transmission cars too close together for fat American's feet.

All of the cars that "Unintendedly Accelerated" were automatics, it seems that us manual transmission drivers were able to keep track of our feet a little better. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

michael_mattox · March 2004

Great comment!!!!

I was about to put my feet on a diet...Just in case I went insane and wanted to buy an Audi.

syswei · March 2004

http://autoweek.com/specials/2004_geneva/volta/pages/index.htm

I think they should produce both Lexus and Toyota-badged versions. Both brands suffer from a stodgy image.

Kirstie_H · March 2004

A reporter is hoping to connect with anyone who has placed an order for the new Bentley Continental GT, or has seriously buying considered the vehicle.
Please respond by Wednesday, March 10 to jfallon@edmunds.com with your name, daytime contact information and a few words about why that vehicle got your attention.
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

jsb16 · March 2004

I just sold one of these last week for my dad who was the original owner of the vehicle with 67K miles. I agree that it was solidly built but was more costly to maintain than my 1990 LS which had 100K more miles. The MB was much larger and made the LS look like a compact. Even the MB lovers out there have to be glad that Lexus came along since the sales price on that 1988 exceeded the sales price on the 2004 LS he bought to replace it. Time will tell if the LS holds up as well and is a 16 year keeper. I just replaced my 1990 LS with a 2004 LS as well and went to the Chicago Auto show the day before I closed the deal. I was surprised that the Phaeton was up on a carousel and unavailable to be more closely inspected. How VW misses an opportunity to take business from MB, Lexus, BMW, etc. owners is beyond me. So far I am liking the new LS but I have to get throgh the 700+ page owners manual/Nav manual to figure the whole thing out.

ljflx · March 2004

That car is gorgeous.

ljflx · March 2004

You have to wonder if they will use Giguaro in the design process.

Syswei - if a supercar is going to be built it makes no sense to do it as anything but a Lexus. Also that design stays true to the LFS style. It is also a revolutionary car to say the least and defines an entirely new segment that everyone will have to follow in. Now if they build it that will be a car you will wait a long long time for. I can imagine the waiting list.

merc1 · March 2004

Funny......I was actually being funny (about the feet part), but there were some cases of manual trans cars being reported as accelerating unintentionally. Also the pedals were placed the same for both transmission types.

M

merc1 · March 2004

Your opinion on the new Mercedes CLS please. I posted this in another topic, but I'm starting to like the BMW 5-Series. Unbelievably the 5-Series actually looks pretty good in lighter colors.

M

syswei · March 2004

I actually like looks of the Audi Le Mans better, but the reality is that I probably will not be in the market for either. I'm just not the type that wants to be 'wasteful' by having more cars than drivers in the family, and a car like that just isn't going to be an everyday driver for me.

kdshapiro · March 2004

"Unbelievably the 5-Series actually looks pretty good in lighter colors."

I just question the word "unbelievably"

merc1 · March 2004

Well usually cars like the 5 and 7-Series look better in darker colors, because of their styling, i.e. not that attractive. I'm saying that the 5-Series, which I initially said was uglier than all getout is actually attractive, and doesn't has to have its styling detail hidden under a darker color to make it look better. I know it's a bit much, but does that make sense?

M

footie · March 2004

Each to their own, eh Merc1. To me the 5 and 7 still look like somebody scrambed a box of model cars on the floor and then picked up the pieces and stuck them together with a blindfold on. From the headlights of the 5, which remind me of an owl, to the bustle on the back, the 5 seems artificially contrived. Of course, the 7 looks like someone put a big square box in the trunk and then shut it with a metal press.

Even though there's supposed to be a single designer behind these cars, I also still liken the new 5 and 7 to camels, which of course are horses designed by a committee.

I much prefer the MB design to the BMWs, beccause the MB design is integrated, flows smoothly (jellybeans) from front to back. Not everyone may like the MB, but at least it is harmonious.

pat · March 2004

Consumers' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2004 Survey is posted and ready for your input!

edspider1 · March 2004

I like the outside styling of MB best, but I have no faults with the other players. I don't see any as ugly. I'm more interested in how they feel while inside the car. I don't know about you, but that's what I see the most of. IMO, Lexus & Jaguar have the best looking interiors. MB comes in second. The rest are about the same. There is an exception, though I don't like the brushed metal/aluminum so many makes are using. I would not be happy with an RX these days. I hope that doesn't ever land in an LS.

designman · March 2004

I've noticed your change of heart regarding E60. Im not understanding the swing from uglier than all getout" to actually attractive though. Wow, I have been known to make 180 degree swings in my opinions but this one stumps me. Wouldn't mind hearing you elaborate. As a BMW owner and long-time fan, Lord knows I've tried to get some growth on E60, but it just isn't happening.

With regard to the CLS, I'm pulling my hair out over it because it is so close yet so far on my score sheet. My first impression was very positive sleek, curvaceous and aerodynamic. I believe they had great aspirations with the curves, but the curves are lacking in sophistication too simple. For instance, the curve of the beltline, and the crease just beneath the beltline, are just too darn symmetrical and parallel.

And I dont like how my attention is always drawn to the rear door. Its the wedge working. The front is a little squeezed. Compare the areas just above the front and rear wheels disparate framing some bulk in the doors.

I like the treatment of the front lamps, but they clearly copied Porsche although not as shapely as Porsche.

I really wish they would lose that pinched-putty treatment of the trunk its just so out of nowhere.

Ive always liked five-spoke wheels but these need a little shape and change in direction not enough thought in them.

MB interiors have always been kind to my taste but this one is a potpourri of random, uncalculated shapes. I particularly dont care for the circular vents and heavy application of wood.

For the most part I like the exterior of the CLS, particularly the grand aerodynamic picture, but I dont I believe it was finessed enough rushed a little too sketchy. I have to believe the diversity across MB model platforms has precluded the nth degree of effort that a fully implemented design deserves. But due to the disposable, just-do-it world we now live, I fear this is becoming the norm across the board.

syswei · March 2004

I am in your camp, inside matters more to me because I don't see the outside that much...LS will be my next car even if it is still the least attractive among its closest competitors (to me) when the next generation is rolled out.

shipo · March 2004

"With regard to the CLS, I'm pulling my hair out over it because it is so close yet so far on my score sheet."

Gee, I wish I still had some hair of my own to pull out. (:-/

I agree with you though, with the demise of the 5-Series (at least in my eyes), I feel like a person without a country. Lots of cars have certain "right" features, however, virtually everything currently on the market is just wide enough of the mark to make me wonder if I will still be driving my E39 for another eight or ten years.

Best Regards,
Shipo

vcheng · March 2004

..Lexus/BMW sedan mix with a honking big V-8, stick shift (no more than 5 speeds preferably) and only a few electronic doodads: stability control, antilock brakes, traction control, all with off switches. Climate control (single zone, gasp!). Thats' it.

No nav, no air suspension, no Idrive, no power windows, no power mirrors, no sunroof, no leather.

All that for a 40-45K tag, and I'm there!

designman · March 2004

"...with the demise of the 5-Series (at least in my eyes), I feel like a person without a country."

Well said. I try to stay optimistic though. I think if I can't get passionate about a car to replace my 530, I'll just save the money and go back to driving cars with plain 'ol economy and utility. Then hopefully the sports cars will still offer up the thrills. I can't imagine them going south... knock on wood!

shipo · March 2004

There is a lot to be said for the idea of replacing my 530i (when the time comes, and none too soon at that) with something like a Dodge Stratus for under $20K and then a 1995 911 for $35K. Then again, we still have our old 1998 Caravan as a third car so maybe I'll just skip the Stratus and get a lightly used 2000-2002 911, or even a 2003 M5. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

footie · March 2004

If you can stand the bland styling the M45 is quite a bargain in this segment. Edmunds gave it a very positive review, particularly in the performance and handling.

Lexus-class reliability and quality, class leading 340 hp V8 333 ftlbs torque VVT w/32 titanium valves. ABS/EBD/TRAC/VSC, 18" wheels, 5 speed sport / automatic. You can get it without the moonroof, nav, etc. but you are stuck with leather, though the seats are ventilated and highly bolstered.

Should sticker out around $45,000 and given its lack of popularity, probably can be had for a substantial discount.

It's probably one of the best car buys in this category if you are more interested in how it drives than how it looks.

edspider1 · March 2004

That does fit vcheng's requirements. I went to the web site. It is well priced. I'm suprised it isn't selling better. I didn't notice a manual tranny option.

vcheng · March 2004

footie · March 2004

Just for clarification vheng, do you think that the automatic tranny's with the + / - up / down sport shifting are significantly different from the manual transmissions with shift pattern and a clutch?

It seems like to me that these newer autotranny's offer the best of both worlds - without a clutch to bother with! If you want to select gears you can. If you want to run through the gated notches you can. If you want to put it in drive you can.

davieboy1 · March 2004

I am seriously considering lease/purchase of an A8. Loved the car when I test drove it at the dealer, but I have been reading about service and reliability issues and poor residual values. An extended warranty seems to be a must in this car but I cannot have a car in the shop that long. One person had theirs in the shop 17 days since October. Is this a major concern. Should I again look at the 745i with its quirks like idrive but better reliability and residuals. Thanks.

shipo · March 2004

While I cannot speak for VCheng, I can opine for myself. An automatic is an automatic is an automatic. No matter how many do-it-yourself shifter devices they invent, it's still an automatic. IMHO, nothing can replace a conventional manual transmission with a third pedal style of clutch, nothing. What's the difference you ask? After all shifting is shifting, right? Nope. With a true clutch (as in foot operated), you have an infinitely variable speed of engagement ranging from feathery soft to slammin' so hard that the glove box involuntarily egresses its entire contents on the passengers' seat (or lap as the case may be). Done right, a car with a manual transmission is smoother or faster or both, depending upon the mood of the driver. Then of course there is the mileage to consider, not that buyers of "High End Luxury Marques" pay too much attention to mileage. That said, I kind of like the fact that my 530i 5-Speed gets about 31mpg on road trips and has averaged a little over 25 mpg in its first two years with me.

So, for my money (and I suspect for VCheng's as well) only a transmission with a stick and a third pedal need apply. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

michael_mattox · March 2004

Just guessing but I think your chances are the Audi A-8 will be as or more reliable then the BMW 745.

vcheng · March 2004

You said it all, more eloquently than I could've myself.

ksurg · March 2004

Hands down you will get a better lease deal on the 745i. Why? Mostly because the relatively low residual on the A8L as compared to the 745i. Other factors to consider include a more comprehensive scheduled maintenance program on the BMW and higher insurance premiums on the Audi( due to its aluminum construction). Intellichoice rates the 745i as excellent and the A8l as average in terms of cost and reliability. Even Edmunds has the A8L as having a higher true cost of ownership.
From an option standpoint the BMW doesn't have four wheel drive but the A8 is not yet available in a SWB model.
Lastly its hard to talk about reliability and get trustworthy info, especially since the A8L is so new. My personal experience having owned an A6 4.2 and 540i was that the Audi had far more problems but most of them were not serious and were fixed promptly by the dealership. I recently was in your position and went with the 745i because the deals were to good to pass up. So far I love the car. The whole quirky idrive thing is beyond me... everything seems intelligently if not intuitively designed despite what you read on this page( keep in mind that idrive before '04 may have been a different animal). IMO MMI is no different. Good luck with whatever you decide they're both great cars!

footie · March 2004

I was just curious as to why folks enjoyed the manual tranny's.

We just added an Element to the family for the teens and as a 'workmobile'. We got the front wheel drive, 5 speed manual combination.

I got it that way because I couldn't get an inexpensive vehicle with the multi-functionality like an Element that also had TRAC and VSC (yet). So I prefer the freedom that the manual gives me in inclement weather.

If it had TRAC/VSC to go along with the ABS/EBD, I would have bought a AWD/Automatic in a blink.

Cars with TRAC/VSC/EBD/ABS, etc. flat out drive everyone but a very good professional driver. The Porsche Cayenne / VW Toureg being a very good example.

Must be one of those 'eye of the beholder' things.

lexus0622 · March 2004

footie: Only one question -- how old are you? Forget that one.

If you have ever driven an old (old by today's date, but current day at the time of driving) Fiat, BMW, Aston Martin, even VW Bug, you would know the difference a left foot clutch guiding/right hand gear shifting/body tensioning/total control feeling experience makes. It's a total body experience that has no equal in today's electronic push button/flip switch controls. I, for one, have come to accept the change. But I surely miss the subtle physical choices a true manual transmission permits. They are just not the same.

Any other thoughts??

merc1 · March 2004

Well with the new 5, I've had some time to actually see it on the roads in more real world surroundings. Now I must be clear, only the models with the bigger wheels and tires are "actually attractive" imo. The folks who buy the 525i and 530i with the standard wheels are still getting a car I can't whole heartedly endorse as being good looking, none of the 5-Series models are for that matter. However I kinda see what Bangle was going for with the 5-Series, I can't explain it, but I'd say he did a much better job on the 5 than he did the 7. Trust me it still isn't an E-Class or A6 (previous model) to me..so I wouldn't say I'd done quite a 180 degree turn, but it does look at lot better than the 7-Series.

As always I enjoy your analysis on styling, the reason I asked your opinion of the CLS in the first place. Ah...the CLS, another car I'm starting like more and more, though it is about as far away from traditional MB design as possible. Your comments about its shape, lines and treatments are spot on, imo. I personally would have liked a blocky or more squarish back end like the S on the CLS. I agree about the interior, though my problem is more or less they used too many E-Class pieces, this car should have been completely different and daring, like the exterior is, for a MB that is.

____________

The transmission debate. No automatic or SMG, F1, or DSG type tranny will take the place of a true 3-pedal, lever operated manual for the purest of enthusiasts. No question. That said, my vote for the next best thing is Audi's DSG gearbox. The transmission is different from the rest of the automated manuals out there right now. Unlike the SMG/F1 type trannnies offered by BMW, Ferrari, Aston-Martin, Mercedes, Toyota, and Maserati, the Audi DSG unit functions pretty well in automatic mode, which truth be told is how most of these trannies will be operated most of the time, otherwise the person would have bought the traditional manual in the first place. The Audi system uses dual clutches and doesn't give that jerky, hesitation of all the other auto/manuals. Test drive the Audi TT 3.2 if you don't believe me. No it still doesn't shift as seamlessly as regular torque converter automatic, but its real close and much smoother than BMW's M3 SMG system is in automatic mode. Ferrari and Toyota MR2 owners complain the loudest about how awful there F1-style trannies behave in automatic mode while in stop-n-go traffic. I've hear similar stories about the Aston-Martin Vanquish and Maserati Sypder too. Which is why I'm shocked that Maserati would see a luxury sedan, the Quattroporte with essentially the same (with some changes) gearbox.

A regular automatic with manual shifting capability isn't even close to comparing to a true manual when it comes to feeling in control of or being at one with the car.

M

merc1 · March 2004

There was a recent Automobile magazine article that stated "there is an old joke that says BMW's marketing is determined in Stuttgart", meaning that BMW's product lineup is influenced by Mercedes-Benz. For what MB does, BMW must answer in most cases, but vice versa also applies, but most of the time MB does the leading.

Car and Driver has also stated that these two companies have more effect on each other than their competition does. This was stated most recently in their comparison of the CLK55 AMG and M3 a while back.

Autospies recently published photos from the Detroit show showing BMW head designer, Chris Bangle and some other top BMW execs inspecting the Mercedes GST concept crossover.

It is reported that BMW now has at the very least has a plan on the drawing board to develop a GST like vehicle. So far the rumor mill has them pegged as the V-Series: V3, V5 and possibly a V7..you know to mirror the X3, X5 and the once proposed X7.

Now Automotive News is showing BMW CEO Helmut Panke in the front seat of the CLS 500, while BMW production Chief Burkhard Göschel "looks on" at the Geneva motor show.

Now of course BMW has influenced Mercedes to *try* and go sportier, especially with the C-Class. The C-Class for 2005 gets another round of chassis improvements in keeping with this belief of BMW's influence.

Will Mercedes go for an idrive like system in the 2006 S-Class? Will BMW build a 4-door Coupe-like vehicle if the CLS is a hit?

Interesting stuff.

M

designman · March 2004

Merc1, Id be interested to hear what you (or anyone else) think of the Cadillac concept cars. Im really hot on Cien. This one has the styling that has been brought home, finished up and nailed down the way I expectthe swagger and forward-thinking that only comes from Lamborghini. CTS had the idea, but Cien has the details. Its a perfect study in assymetry... complex, striking proportions yet extremely balanced. I particularly like the harmony among flat and curved surfaces.

If Cien ever makes it to the street, I would seriously consider it based on style alone. Any brains, performance and reliability that comes with it would only be icing on the cake. Too much to ask for? I suppose so. But this is not your fathers Cadillac, and its no Allante. I really hope they can make a go of it and shed that stigma. Theres a lot of inertia to overcome and I dont think XLR is going to help the cause. But in any event, Cadillac is indeed providing some interest and worth watching. I know they take a beating in the minds of foreign-car buyers, but I try not to curse the darkness.

ljflx · March 2004

Japanese continue to dominate the CR best lists and reliability (if you read the magazine article) seems to be higher than ever while European reliability seems to be worse than ever. One thing of interest is that they thought the S-class ride was actually a tad bit better and more sullen than the LS430 which is the exact opposite of what I have found in the past. This however is the ultimate battle as both cars have phenomenal ride quality. It's clear that CR considers the S and LS the best mass production cars on the planet but the S loses out because of poor reliability. The other thing is that the S is only average in customer satisfaction which must be tied to a combination of its poor reliability and high anticipations of the buyer. The LS scored highest marks possible in all categories including depreciation. 7 series was considered to miss the mark as a luxury sedan (my take is because of the difficulty with iDrive and performing ordinary tasks whilee driving) and scored awful in reliabilty and average in satisfaction and depreciation. It was considered very quiet but lacking a great ride. The A8 is too new to be rated (as was the Phaeton) but its clear CR was quite impressed with it. The Jag was considered a classic car but its ride, interior comfort and quietness trailed the S and LS. The Q scored high in reliabilty but misses the mark as a world class car.

The Passat tied in a top category as it had average reliabilty. The Passat commercial with the woman test driving a car and passing an unmarked state trooper is one of the best auto ads I've seen recently. The look on the troopers face as he's passed, the auto salesman's face when he realizes what just happened and the excitement on the woman's face as she looks at the auto saleman for approval to pass beforehand all desreve Clio awards.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/08/pf/autos/CR_best_cars/index.htm?c- - - nn=yes

syswei · March 2004

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