High End Luxury Cars

ljflx · March 2004

A 1996 LS 400 is more problem free than a 2003 BMW 7-series. That is incredible but at the same time doesn't surpise me. The 1996 car also had plenty of advanced technology on it. It just shows you how well made Lexus cars are, particularly the LS.

By the way CR is a BMW fan and in the past has said the 5-series is the best car they've ever driven.

It's inevitable that euro sales will fall at the high price levels that exist today unless the quality comes back. In the past depreciation was exceptional for many Euro lux brand. But now it is average and even poor in some cases. The Japanese cars are starting to get the grades Euro cars used to get in depreciation and customer satisfaction. I'm not sure the Euro brands ever had the reliability levels that the Japanese have today. But long-term - falling car depreciation makes the high upfront payment for a new car unsupportable - particularyly given the leasing nature of the most expensive cars.

syswei · March 2004

I was surprised when I learned that back in 1990, MB led the JDP quality surveys. (Well, I didn't buy my first car until 1992, so maybe I'm excused for my ignorance.) So in a relative sense the Europeans, or some of them, did lead in quality. In an absolute sense (number of defects per 100) I think they never achieved current Japanese quality numbers...after all, all or almost all car companies have shown long-term improvements in problems per 100. That the Europeans now slightly trail the Americans in this metric is more due to improvements (or improvements at a faster rate) by the Americans.

ljflx · March 2004

I meant quality from a relative standpoint not an absolute standpoint. I don't think the Europeans as a whole ever dominated the top reliability spot the way the Japanes (as a whole) do. I'm pretty sure that in the past MB would have gotten the type of quality ratings (relative to the industry in the past not the problem occurence of today) that Lexus now gets. With all that said it is nice to see the improvement in the American cars.

syswei · March 2004

We often hear from fans of German cars that Lexus "rides like a Buick". Well, maybe the refrain should be that "MB has worse reliability than a Buick". CR puts Buick as above-average in reliability for new cars, 3-year-old cars, and 5-year old cars, and MB as worse than average in all 3 categories.

problems per 100

MB Buick
2003s 22 13
2001s 79 48
1999s 87 72

sv7887 · March 2004

Hi All,
I hope this isn't the beginning of another Lexus vs MB debate..The BMW statistic doesn't surprise me. The 1996 LS was alot less complicated than the current 7 series. Obviously the more complicated the system the more issues that can arise with it. From my own personal experience, my 92 LS has had fewer issues than my LS430. Of course the cars differ greatly in complexity.

Anyone want to postulate reasons for the European issues? (I'm NOT trying to start another Lex vs Germany thread here..) My feelings are that the autos are heavily concentrating on cramming electronics into these cars at a torrid pace. That works to the Japanese competitive advantage, as they are the unrivaled leader in this sort of thing. I think the main issues for the Euro automakers are electronics related. I somehow doubt I'd see a BMW, MB, or Jag with Engine or transmission issues..

Your thoughts?

SV

ljflx · March 2004

The problem is that the 7-series didn't need to be all that more complex than the 96 LS400. BMW went there because of a desire to lead in electronic auto technology. The real issue is whether the Germans will let the Japanese lead here because they are no match for the Japanese in electronics. My bet is that pride will not allow it and the quality slide will continue.

No - I don't want another Lexus vs MB debate either. We've been down that road a few too many times. But 10 - 15 years ago would anyone have ever thought the ratings would look like this for the Germans?

prattster · March 2004

Well, I'll bet pride has some bearing but then Porsche is using Japan supplier Aisin for the Cayenne transmission and that's one of the most complicated components in any car. It's that same pride that got the domestics buried in the 70's-80's. I'll bet 10-15 years back, German manuf. thought that the luxury market was all locked up for them, well til 86'(Legend)I guess but 89' was the 1st wake-up call.

Japanese don't just make great electronics, their mechanical stuff is top notch also as in long life engines. It's no surprise that Boeing awarded Japanese suppliers to do the electrical systems for their new upcoming jetliner. Talk about complicated electrical.

shipo · March 2004

Hmmm, I know very well that the hype says that they are virtually flawless; however, my experience has been anything but that.

My last (and only) Japanese car (a Mazda 626) was a nightmare (many mechanical and electrical failures), and interestingly enough, the only car I've ever had that had a transmission failure, and it was a 5-Speed manual. My last American car that had any failures at all (four American cars ago) had only two failures, the fuel pump, made in Japan, and the alternator, also made in Japan. Go figure.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that on the whole, the Japanese build generally more reliable products that do the Americans or the Europeans. Of course, then I look over to the next two houses on my street where a Honda Odyssey and two Accords live. One of the Accords is a 4-Banger with a 5-Speed manual transmission, and other than a bad cat (something like $1,200 to replace), it has been quite reliable. The Odyssey and the other Accord have required three transmissions between them. Hmmm, then again, maybe it's all hype.

Best Regards,
Shipo

michael_mattox · March 2004

We are not compairing Mazda's to MBs and Lexus and BMW..Please.

Shipo someday take a lease on one of the top 3 and see if your attitude changes. Just test drive an MB or a Lexus or a BMW, it is a totally different experience then driving an old Accord or 626.

shipo · March 2004

Sorry guy, I've owned four Audi's and I am now on my second BMW, a 530i this time that I had the pleasure of picking up in Munich and running it through its paces on the Autobahn. If that's not enough, I spent several years in the mid 1990s working for MB-USA in Montvale and Stuttgart, and I drove everything they had as well as all of their competitors that they would buy and MAKE us drive for a week at a time, just to get the feel of them. As such, I think I am very well versed in what the various cars have to offer.

That said, I stand by my statements, Japanese engineering is, IMHO, overrated. They're good, but there nowhere near as good as the hype would have folks believe. The opposite is true for the American and European manufacturers; they are not as bad as the rhetoric from the Japanese loving public would have us believe.

Oh, and FWIW, the Odyssey and the two Accords are not very old, maybe four years for the oldest. The 626 on the other hand was a 1993 model.

Best Regards,
Shipo

pat · March 2004

This "argument" about reliability never gets us anywhere but in trouble.

Anecdotal evidence is just that - there are those of us who want to rely on it, and those of us who don't. Whatever - we're all entitled to our own points of view.

Why don't we just talk about what we like about these vehicles and where we think the manufacturers can improve instead of getting into yet another "my car/opinion is better than yours" debate?

It's not worth it. There are really great cars in this category, and there is no reason for any of us to pursue these turf wars. All of the cars that fit the topic here have characteristics that many appreciate, and yet they all seem to have some minuses - can't we talk about these things without the territorial ground-pawing and snorting that seems to come with defensiveness about personal choices?

And we do need to remember our subject ... we're getting into vehicles that none of us believe belong here.

sv7887 · March 2004

Hi All,
Back to the topic I posed...Should the auto manufacturers continue to cram all these electronics into cars? I somehow don't see my LS430 holding up as wel as my original LS400 has over 12 years..There are simply too many electronic gimmicks in the car. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems like these cars are not being designed to be trouble free as the old MB's and original LS cars.

You're all going to call me crazy, but Lexus owners, sit in an original LS and then in a new one..You'll notice the switches are lesser quality, and the car doesn't exude the solidness that the original did. The numbers even tell the tale. In 1990, it was estimated the car cost around $42-45K to manufacture. (Leading MB to charge Toyota was dumping the vehicles in the US market) Two years back when I bought my 430 the invoice price was around 50K. Maybe this is why I probably won't keep the car beyond it's warranty which expires next September.
I firmly believe what some have posted here: Automakers should offer simpler versions of their cars. What do you all think?

SV

merc1 · March 2004

I remember the concept clearly...the Cadillac Cien. I agree on the styling, it was a gorgeous and edgy excercise. It carried Cadillac's new styling theme better than anything since, especially the CTS and XLR, both of which could use some softening, imo.

shipo,

Be careful with that view expressed in your post #4376 particularly that second paragraph, as the surveys and CR rule this board, nothing else matters, including knowledge about the cars themselves, CR/JDP history or anything else. A Buick is a better car than anything German.

M

designman · March 2004

shipo... I agree with the overrated/underrated extremes that car buyers go to as you suggest. As a note, my father bought a Hyundai around the time they first came out. Geez was it tinny and couldnt get out of its own way, but it just kept running to my surprise and delight.

sv7887... If I could have one wish granted with cars, it would probably be to reduce the electronics and gimmickry. I agree it is out of hand and getting worse. There are more heating zones in luxury cars than there are in most homes. My wife brought our 03 BMW 530 in for a simple oil change yesterday and it comes back with the computer reset. The on/off characteristics of the lights are now in a manual mode. So now I have to make another trip back to get it reset to our preferences. Wouldnt mind if you could do it yourself, like resetting the radio stations, but you become dealer-dependent. The proprietary aspect also handcuffs us.

merc1... gear up sir. What with the latest CR deal I think German cars are going to be taking a beating around these threads whether it is deserved or not. It wouldnt trouble me though. Living in the shadow of big brother 911 and less expensive stars like the S2000 and 350Z, my Boxster often takes a pounding. But I know exactly what I want and am very comfortable with where my passions lie. In the end, however, I think the fierce competition is very healthy for all brands. And as much as I disagree with many of the posters, I am thoroughly entertained by their takes and the candor we couldn't possibly find in a cocktail conversation. You have to admit, this place is a gas.

:-)

merc1 · March 2004

Oh no, I'm done with the reliability debate, especially on this board. There really is nothing to debate, German cars are junk and the Japanese ones never, ever have a problem. Never. Me? I'm going to get a Buick. Nice and simple obsolete technology can't be beat for reliability...lol.

M

ljflx · March 2004

Don't know what you see in your car but I've had the 95, 98 and 2001 LS430's and they just keeping getting better and better. I'm about to take a 2004 LS430 and gave some serious thought to buying out my 2001 because it is so good. Interior is better than ever and I don't see any departure from the excellent switch gear that has been in the car in the past. I don't think they've ever changed it nor do they need to. I'll tell you what is best of all. My lease on the 2004 - which if I get the car I want - will have a $62k sticker (but I may opt for the full ultra lux model) and will price out at $10 a month less than the 1995 I had which had a $56.5k sticker. The 2004 is naturally a safer car and has far more equipment included. I realize some of that is interest rate reduction but some of it is also because the LS430 now has one of the highest residual values in the industry.

merc1 - you'd look great behind the wheel of a Buick. All kidding aside - the NY news media and evening reports had a field day with BMW and Mercedes yesterday. I hope the German execs were paying attention because it's reports like those - which are widespread and can't be missed or forgotten - that make reality overtake perception. You don't think Buick will play up that tidbit as future marketing hype?

edspider1 · March 2004

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare old model reliability with new models. The market demands technology. The market for 2004 MY cars with 1990 technology is tiny.

When I moved to Lexus from MB in 2001 it wasn't because of quality, it was because of features. Only in the last year or so did I connect the absence of LS problems compared to my 98 E Class experience. The MB was out of pocket for 40 days while they replaced the engine. The parking lights would burn out every 60 days until a recall finally fixed the problem.

Lucky for me I still see Lexus has having the highest techology and I get the quality build as a bonus! They don't have all the gadgets though. Lexus botched XM radio. Their NAV lacks the 3D birdeye view. They still haven't made radar pre-crash available. There is no display showing what audio system is playing.

scottphillip · March 2004

As a Lexus owner, I ran out and bought the new CR. I drive a Best Pick!! Maybe I can buy a decal for my RX330 announcing how smart I am...

sv7887...Sometimes I do wish that the autos were simpler. I really liked my 1992 Q45 because of its uncluttered dash and relative simplicity. I don't recall having any problems during my 24 month lease. On the other hand, I enjoyed all the gadgets on my LS430 and RX330 and haven't experienced any problems with them.

merc1...Wouldn't you really rather drive a Buick?

johncalifornia · March 2004

The Consumer Reports staff know their cars, but it's the readers who determine the reliability ratings by sending in their votes, right?

If so, these ratings are statistically bogus from the get-go. If report submission is voluntary, and if it's from a non-representative sector (Consumer Reports readers do not represent MY interests or preferences!), then the data is flawed and the results are worthless.

For example, I'd wager that Jaguar owners who subscribe to CR are an anomaly within the Jag-buying demographic. (Whereas Buick-owning CR subscribers are probably represntative for the fuddy-duddy Buick-owning demographic.) My guess is that Jag-owning CR readers are made up substantially of traditional American-car buyers who have decided to "take a flyer." They ecountered more service issues than they expected, and thus Jag models get low ratings.

NO volunary owner surveys are going to generate good statistics. You need to research actual shop records and manufacturer data for the brand. All the rest is highly suspect, and I think tends to favor the status quo.

Why is JD Power so highly regarded? Because the manufacturers quote it all the time in their advertising. Circular reasoning aside, it's a somewhat too-cozy relationship for my comfort.

While I'm not completely dismissing these surveys, I think they should be regarded with skepticism and not the sole determinant of a person's choice of auotmobile.

mariner7 · March 2004

But isn't JD Power giving pretty much the same picture as CR? And that survey by the biggest drivers association in Germany, it said the same thing, didn't it?

One interesting thing is how the Swedes are doing so much better than the Germans. Aren't two Saabs (their entire lineup) and three Volvos on CR recommended list? The Germans place two or three on it. Weren't the Swedes in quality trouble just a couple of years ago?

If the Germans studied how the Swedes turned it around, their problem will be forgotten in a few years. And I expect them to.

sv7887 · March 2004

Hi All,
In comparing the quality of an early 1990's Lexus to those of today I was attempting to make a statement of Absolute Quality. I've had a 92,98,and currently a '02 LS430. I paid $42.5K in 1992, $59K in 1998 and $64K in 2002. I buy cash and not lease, b/c I like to hold on to them if possible. I do realize that the trend has moved toward leasing..I guess I am one of the old timers.

My statement simply concerned the solidness that the old car possessed. Feel the switches and controls in the new cars, they don't have the solid feel that a W126 MB or original LS does. The chrome on the radiators are thinner, and the switches have this tinny feel to them. Call me crazy, but I thought I'd put it out there.

My previous post questioned the validity of the Technology craze in today's cars. I believe that Absolute quality has fallen as a result. Does anyone think these cars are built to last 20 years like a W126 MB or 90 LS? Keep in mind I'm talking about Long Term ownership here (>5 yrs) I point to my statement from my last post: The more complicated the design, the more issues you'll have. What do you all think?

SV

vcheng · March 2004

Loss of Business due to Durability of Product.

If these cars (ie the high end of the market) last as long as 20 years, it'll drive down the market within a few years, and the manufacturers surely do not want that.

scott1256 · March 2004

I agree with others here that the perception of the public is not always accurate.

But - seeing big headlines in the major papers highlighting the 'unreliablity' of German cars will help form the perception of the public.
Most consumers are not real car junkies and will just skim a small part of the information that is available.

Merc/BMW/Audi management is well advised to take the quality/reliability issue very seriously.
At 47, I am old enough to remember how Cadillac management and fans dismissed negative feedback 25-30 years ago. It is much less costly in the long run to maintain brand image than to try to restore it once it is lost.

Scott.

6sn7s · March 2004

Are CR and JDP accurate? It depends!

Car surveys are like TV surveys.... we know it is inaccurate from year to year but that is fine because you cannot possibly control for all anomalies!

However in the lager scheme of things the data is vaild because the effects are cumulative in nature - they take samples every year - such that after a number of years the picture gets more accurate and increases in accuracy the longer a trend can be traced.

For example, Lexus has won so many awards for so many years in JDP and CR that you really would be hard pressed fault the data. That is assuming of course the test itself is 'valid' - testing what it suppose to.

On the other hand, if you get a car model that seems to be good for only one year, it may just be an anomaly.

Moral: So when quoting such data, like all things in life, context is critical... think trends not individual years!

ljflx · March 2004

Scott and Vcheng - great points.

vcheng - I do think some of these cars will go 15-20 years but there are so few buyers who want to hold them more than 5 years anyway. The market has moved on due to acceleration of auto improvements and stronger than ever competition.

Scott - I remember the Cadillac denial also and the MB/BMW version is a mirror image of it. But you know what - it happens in business all the time - in every industry - and it could happen to Lexus and the Japanese in the future as well.

CR - not statistically weighted but always on the leading edge and well respected and believed in. Witness all the press coverage it got yesterday. As well getting a statistically weighted car sample is not the same as getting a statistically weighted TV viewership behavior sample ala Nielsen's TV ratings. CR won't publish the data if there is not enough volume from its members hence the NA's on the newest cars. Where it has the volume - and it has plenty for cars like the LS430 and S-class - it publishes its survey results.

6sn7s · March 2004

I understand what you're saying.

My comments have more to do with addressing the general comments and issues that the data these companies produced is invalid.

Issues like audience sampling size, where they got the samples from, or whether the buyers of certain brands have unique characteristics that may slant the ratings.

These are all good points but people also need to realize that given a long enough testing period and a large enough data base these anomalies will work themselves out.

The question then becomes, how big is big enough and how long is long enough? Again, it would depend on a variety of factors too numerous and too boring to discuss here.

Suffice to say that these testing methods are probably - I don't have all the details on their methods - as good as it gets, in stats nothing is absolute, just a best guess.... a really good guess though : D

vcheng · March 2004

There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there's statistics!

scott1256 · March 2004

You are right, ljflx - the Merc/BMW/Audi denials and arguments on quality issues are eerily like those of Cadillac supporters in the 1970s.

History may not repeat but sometimes rhymes.

Probably the Japanese brands will face their challenge some day too.

I also think that people with financial means will tire of cars after 4-6 years of ownership no matter how reliable the vehicle has been.

Scott.

ljflx · March 2004

I'm in the media and marketing information business so I know exactly what you mean about surveys and weighting sample pools. Nielsen puts out national TV ratings that drives $50bln+ of TV ads with a sample of 5,000 people. Meager as that may be as a representation of the US population - it is well modelled and statistically weighted - it is still the best measurement out there. I wonder how many people knew their sample is that small. Just think of all the auto advertising that is based on that small sample. I can tell you that JD Powers has phenomenal quality as I was part of a team that looked at acquiring them for my former company in the past. We passed for different strategic reasons.

twinsdad99 · March 2004

On More technological complexity in newer cars:
-All car companies need an edge to differentiate themselves from the pack.It can be styling, gadgetry, safety devices, pricing, buid quality etc. On the area of electronics-digital gadgets are permeating almost all facets of the car and have definite advantages that can be used to descriminate on performance (e.g.faster braking; less weight by using non-mechanical parts etc.) and cost of production. It's a calculated bet that automakers make every year on what gadgets or functionalities to introduce. I just think that some companies get hurried up by marketing deadlines and product intros that they screw up a lot.Toyota makes mistakes too, but I notice that they stabilize their production line quality first before they introduce widespread changes and will delay introduction of new functions/gadgets for the sake of perceived quality,even for 1-2 years behind.

On JDP, CR, NHTSA, edmunds, etc.-believe or not?:
Caveat emptor-but it sure feels great when what you choose seems to be confirmed by a majority of entities that are viewed by many as reliable or by entities that require credibility to continue to function.

syswei · March 2004

Some people here like to take something others say and take it to the extreme to make it look wrong. "A Buick is a better car than anything German." Did anyone here ever write this, or even intimate it? No. The only discussion was of Buick RELAIBILITY vs MB, not that Buick is overall "better" than a particular German make.

"Japanese ones never, ever have a problem." Has anyone here ever written that any particular Japanese model or carline "never, ever has a problem"? I don't think so. And if one bothers to look at the JDP or CR or other data, one sees that even the best of the Japanese DO indeed have problems...but they have fewer problems than some European makes.

pat · March 2004

I think that message was written tongue in cheek?

This isn't directed at you syswei, but to everyone - could we try to avoid yet another squabble and just lighten up a bit?

Everyone is always welcome to create or join specific comparison discussions if going at a comparison toe to toe is what you need to do. Can't we let this one be a place where we don't have to have these face-offs; a place where we can have some thoughtful conversation about the positives and negatives of the upper end choices available? Conversation, as I tried to say earlier, that does not have to be overtaken with defensive and territorial arguments with each other?

:-)

andy71 · March 2004

When you are comparing this car vs. that car things always get a bit heated. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't degenerate into petty insults and name calling

pat · March 2004

My point is that this is not a specific comparison discussion, and yeppers, trust me, you don't have to tell ME about things getting heated in a comparo. :-)

The intent of this discussion has always been to appreciate and constructively criticize the upper end market. There are other places more appropriate for head to head knock-down drag-outs, otherwise known as the comparos.

That's all I'm trying to say.

syswei · March 2004

Your overall point that surveys aren't perfect is a fair one. However I disagree with your conclusion that the data is flawed and the results are worthless. Yes the responses are voluntary, but that doesnt totally invalidate them. When Gallup does a political poll or any other poll, the responses are also voluntary. And the results are, while not perfect, still generally in the ballpark. If one candidate leads another by 2:1 on election eve, you dont typically see the actual result come out 1:2.

You need to research actual shop records and manufacturer data for the brand. This is a good idea, but I have another that requires less work, maybe you or someone else would like to pursue it: Take two equally-priced cars from different manufacturers, and call up third-party extended warranty companies to get quotes on extended warranty coverage. My guess is that the results would generally track the CR/JDP and other surveys (I am guessing so because I believe the survey data are actually pretty good, but I welcome you to prove me wrong using actual research).

Survey work tends to favor the status quo. A supposition and Ill counter with my own supposition. If someone buys say a Lexus believing that it is more reliable than others, but ends up having problems, isnt he MORE likely to want to complain about it as compared to an MB buyer who was already aware of a poor quality reputation?

Surveys should not the sole determinant of a person's choice of automobile. Agreed, because reliability isnt the only factor in choosing an auto.

ljflx · March 2004

I'm not sure you can ever take the reliability issues out because it is part of the buying equation. The importance may vary to some but it is an inevitable expectation no matter what. Many of those who fight over reliability are fans of the brands they defend and not buyers of them. Part of the luxuty/high end expectation of these cars is feeling/knowing you are getting a car that will work better than anything out there. Why else would you spend $60k+ or make a $30k-$40k lease committment. Hence it is as hard to remove from the discussion as ride quality and handling quality. It will always come back. Besides it is what MB built their rerputation on and what Lexus is building theirs on.

pat · March 2004

No issue with what you say -- I just think we should aim to "discuss" rather than to fight. I'm sorry to keep saying the same thing, but some of us get too territorial about brands and don't even try to be objective.

My point is that there are places in which that line of posting is appropriate and places where it isn't. Given the basis and name of this discussion, I think this is one where that territorial, defensive approach doesn't belong.

Now, I'm going back into lurk mode, 'kay?

:-)

carnaught · March 2004

I'm not sure that our participants are "fighting", rather than having a spirited debate. I nevertheless appreciate your intervening to stifle the same old worn-out debates we hear ad infinitum.

(Lately, I'm being in the lurk mode, as well, but am enjoying this forum.)

shipo · March 2004

Hey Pat, it's good to hear from you that often in a situation where you are not breaking up an all-out feud. ;-)

Regarding reliability and how much of an impact it makes on prospective buyers. In my case I look for functionality first, reliability second. I just assume that most new cars will have few teething problems out of the gate, that's what warranties are for. Prior to leasing "The best car CR ever tested", I bought or leased a whole string of cars that were poorly thought of by CR. Why? Simply because I liked the car and how it drove. Would I have gotten the 530i if it hadn't gotten such a glowing review from CR? You betcha.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ljflx · March 2004

Let's go back to your issue about overkill on technology. It's the same principle that applies to everything as far as I'm concerned. That being that too much of something is just as bad - maybe worse - than too little of something.

The money spent on technology should be sub-divided into what is good for the enviroment(hybrid technology, increasing gas mileage, keeping the air cleaner etc), what is bad, downright stupid and wasteful (I-drive, cars that park themselves, electronics created for bragging rights), what is desired (technology that improves handling, ride quality, stability etc) and technology that improves safety, driver comfort/fatigue etc - among others.

The spending on electronics should be focused on need not bragging. I-drive is a disaster. Toyota's car that park themselves are disaters in the making. Such a car would would probably need about a 12 hour time frame to complete the job in midtown Manhattan the way taxis and people would interefere with its laser detection equipment. The thing would look like a pin ball bouncing around an energetic pin ball machine. I thought of my Lexus with dual front climate controls (some MB's have 4-zone climate control) - for a space of what - 15 to 30 feet with no boundaries! I have a 750 sq. ft family room and if my builder used the logic of high end auto mfrs. I'd need about 10 different air conditioners and heating units for it. Heck - i might be able to create my own interior cold fronts if he did that. Overkill on certain things - for sure.

I'm curious as to what people think can be improved, added to and taken away from cars to make them better than they are today.

ljflx · March 2004

Things looking pretty bleak at VW. CR's quality is an issue as is a lack of currency hedging on the Euro and as well what looks like a terrible decision to build the Phaeton. It's also not easy for European companies to get lean and mean given employment rules on the continent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/business/worldbusiness/10volk.h- - - tml

ksurg · March 2004

Wow you guys are over confident, narrow minded and seem to be able to convince yourselves of anything. I-drive may be a marketing disaster but you know what, the '04 addition is easy to use. I can get anywhere with minimal effort without leaning forward and without having to locate a button or screen half way down the dash. It is undoubtedly a better system than offered in most cars today. Too bad many of you made judgments based on limited experience and naively accepted reviews written by people who spent minimal time driving the car. As for the rest of the new BMW 7 series it has an award winning engine and superlative handling. It really doesn't matter to me what others on this page think. I just believe it's too bad that anything that doesn't carry a Lexus or MB badge is dismissed without genuine consideration.
As for new technology give all of us a break. It would be absolutely ridiculous not to push ahead. Does anyone actually think that cars will not evolve in many areas... some good and some wasteful. For that matter is there a single vehicle on this thread that isn't wasteful. I get the sense that most of the people on this page are very set in their ways and expectations. What is going on in car market isn't meant for the over 50 crowd. What are the demographics of this thread anyway?
The single best tangent I've seen was the discussion of upcoming hybrid technology. Maybe we could branch off on some other such issues.

merc1 · March 2004

It's equally amazing that now the Germans are denying quality problems on the same scale as the Americans did back in the 1970's, yet Mercedes-Benz in particular has stated that they intend to get the brand back to the top of the surveys in the next two years. VW has clearly stated that they have a problem and that they are also working on it, yet for this board and the survey clutchers only the articles about the denials a while back matter. Sounds like MB couldn't care less about quality to me. Why else would they say they're doing something about a problem they don't think they have.

Drove a Buick Park Avenue Ultra today, I swear it drove better than a S600 or 760Li, it was the Harley Earl edition. It started on the first try, unlike those cars.

M

scott1256 · March 2004

Merc/BMW/Audi are saying the right things about this quality question. They well may well take steps to correct the problem.

Remember, though, that this deteriorating quality issue is of at least 5-6 years standing and has not thus far been effectively dealt with.

I am at the stage of life that I am a potential Merc/Audi customer - but the current offerings have none of the pull of the MB uber-sedans of the 1980s. Those cars had me thinking every day that I couldn't wait to own one.

Scott.

syswei · March 2004

Glad to see you liked the Park Ave Ultra.

Maybe Buick's marketing tagline should be:

"Rides like a Lexus, and more reliable than a Mercedes"

Of course, the latter isn't exactly something to brag about these days. Let's see if MB lives up to its promises re improving reliability. I'm sure you know better than me...did MB start talking about improving reliability something like 5 years ago, after the ML's problems?

merc1 · March 2004

Don't forget that a Buick is more technically advanced and has controls that are much easier to operate than all of that German junk. Buicks rule.

M

syswei · March 2004

I got an email, and Lexus is saying only 270hp (vs 230 for the RX330). I presume that they are tuning more for torque and mpg in the RX400h, as compared to the Italdesign sportscar shown at Geneva. They do talk about "4-cylinder family sedan fuel consumption figures combined with ultra low CO2 emissions for a SUV".

Lastly, they say it is CVT, which is news to me. I thought it was technically difficult to do CVT with a heavy vehicle and more than a 2 liter or so engine, so this seems impressive.

shipo · March 2004

Audi has been doing CVT for several years in heavier cars with larger engines.

Best Regards
Shipo

syswei · March 2004

Thanks, I guess my info was very dated!

lexus0622 · March 2004

OK, let's help out the uninformed a bit. What does CVT mean?

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