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Comments
The screen looks like a warp core, and the steering comes straight from a Chevy silvarado. Its no where near the cadillac.
I bet you in quality it will be no where close to the STS.
Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Series Dashboard
2005 Audi A6 Interior; European Model Shown
Gm is catching up to the best in interior design, quality and execution
1. New STS ushers out the old Seville, period. STS will be the "only" offering (at this time) no "detuned" less sporty version like the old SLS?
2. New '05 Audi interior reminds "us" of a Chevy interior and current Audi interiors are boring?
Note: OK, I guess I see some similarities in the picures presented above -- what does the STS interior look like -- for comparison?
Note2: Boring is a subjective term, the editors of such Car Guy (male or female "guy") publications as Car and Driver, Automobile and Road and Track seem to use the Audi interiors as "the standard that they hold others up to for comparison" -- often resorting to "this is an almost Audi-like interior, it is so good" or "the Audi interiors are "jewel like" with industry leading fit and finish.
Note3: Please observe this says nothing for or against Cadillac especially the new STS. The write ups about the new BMW interiors are pretty much all over the board, some like them, some don't, some editors calling them "stark."
3. The new Cadillac will be "better" than the German cars? In what way?
Am I correct that the new STS will indeed have a 116" wheelbase? Wouldn't that contribute to a "less dynamic" chassis? Wouldn't that contribute to a more comfortable, smooth, touring car, but, less to some of the dynamics that Audi and BMW (at least) are often praised for having?
The fact that the brand new Audi dealer is next to one of the "best" Cadillac dealers in Cincinnati, will compel me to look at the STS, especially if it is priced between $45 and $55K (which is where I assume the new Audi A6 will come to).
I would only consider the STS with Magnaride and AWD and if a "sport package" is on the check sheet, I guess I would also be compelled to test the Caddy and the Audi back to back with similar sporting intentions.
Perhaps this is unfair, as it seems like the new STS should be put up against the Phaeton V8 or the Audi A8L (or perhaps even the A8) -- then the Cadillac will most certainly win the MSRP race, to say nothing of a GMAC incentive here and there.
Since there seems to be some real passion (pro) for the Cadillac here on this forum, I am keen to find out more. And, since the Audi and the Caddy are, as yet, not on sale, the debate will be, by necessity, based on the pre-release info and preview tests (if any).
Over.
". The new Cadillac will be "better" than the German cars? In what way?"
In overall quality.
You asked " what does the STS interior look like -- for comparison?"
http://www.bomengen.com/gm/sts/STS_6_web.jpg
You asked "Am I correct that the new STS will indeed have a 116" wheelbase? Wouldn't that contribute to a "less dynamic" chassis? Wouldn't that contribute to a more comfortable, smooth, touring car, but, less to some of the dynamics that Audi and BMW (at least) are often praised for having?"
Not necesarily
you said
"Perhaps this is unfair, as it seems like the new STS should be put up against the Phaeton V8 or the Audi A8L (or perhaps even the A8) -- then the Cadillac will most certainly win the MSRP race, to say nothing of a GMAC incentive here and there."
No, remember STS is american. So its Amerisized. That is the american character. You get more sheetmetal for your buck in America
In theory a larger wheelbase will make turn-in less crisp, but this isn't a narrow focused automobile. BMW favors sporting intentions over passenger comfort. Most other luxury brands try to give the best of both worlds. Would good is world class handling if you can't even fit decent sized adults in the back?
It just seems that the STS, past tense, I grant you, was much larger than the 5 series BMW or the A6.
What would appear to be the case, is that the STS would attract buyers looking for either larger cars or within the price range (BTW what is the price range of the new STS) of the new STS.
I have a current model allroad (an A6 by another name) and I can't seem to find its wheelbase, but I assume it is less than 116.4".
My point has nothing to do with challenging the "quality" assumption -- for I cannot presume to know what the quality of either the 2005 STS or 2005 A6 will be.
I am rooting for Cadillac, don't get me wrong -- but I have been a long time Audi driver and have test driven multiple STS's (obviously NOT the new one), and they were very nice and the Northstar engine was potent -- but the sporting capabilities of these current gen STS cars was, er, "muted" (especially when compared with the Germans).
I looked at the edmunds preview and 255 x 45 x 18" tires are encouraging for a sea change from the old STS to this new one.
Like I said, this is getting interesting.
I don't particularly have a beef with current Audi interiors. I'm sure they are very high quality, I just don't find the design as inviting as say certain Lexus models or the old STS. Maybe because they seemed darker and more business like.
M
Let's talk about our subject cars, and let's do so in a civil, respectful and non-confrontational manner.
The 2004 is fabulous. The ride is phenomenal and the road feel is tighter than before. The custom lux and ultra lux are even quieter than the other LS editions because of the glass. Hope it doesn't interfere with EZPass. My ex-boss has a problem with his A8 because the windshield glass prevents the readers from picking up EZpass. If you can swing it I'd lease it for 3 years. The 2007 LS will be much hotter than the 2001 was - IMO - so it will be a MSRP or above priced car for a prolonged period. By spring and summer of 2007 the prices will subside. A three year lease starting in April or May positions you well. Lease prices are great right now because LS residuals are higher than just about any car in this segment and interest rates are low. I'm actually paying $138 a month less than 2001 for a lot more car.
By the way - we are obviously car Luxuriasts. I loved that phrase you coined.
OAC - just do it. Take a 36 month lease and enjoy 3 great car driving years and then you're primed for the 2007.
Anyway for 2004, I got the black with antique walnut. I know I'll like it better than the black I have now. I'm hoping it will look richer and warmer. I stuck with the ultra because that's what I had before. I was afraid to find out what loosing the air suspension would do to the ride. (probably nothing). But also my friends have come to know me as the one whose car has all the buttons in the back. No one cries "shotgun" in an Ultra.
Here is my problem.
When the 2004 LS came out, I went to take a long hard look at the first one to arrive at my dealer showroom floor. I was impressed visually, but felt the changes were too subtle, especially compared to the LF-S concept. So I decided to take a pass and wait for the complete re-design in MY 2007. Reading, seeing and hearing all the great things about the 2004 (esp the 6-speed) made me go back to take another look. Yes, I still like it, but just not that much to pull the trigger right now. Maybe my hesitation has to do with the fact that I like my 2nd gen exterior design more than the 3rd gen '01 - '04. And hence would much prefer the redesign especially if it has close resemblance to the LF-S concept. That would really give me a lot of joy to own such a car.
So I am prepared to wait a couple of years. My current '99 has given me nothing but pleasant ownership experience. No complaints whatsoever. Now with 80K miles, it continues to perform flawlessly, making the choice of buying a new one right now that much more difficult. But I am happy to note that my dealer was not sand-bagging me with his lack of info on release date.
The interior of the A6 looks horrible, the interior of the 5 series is better, but still stark and business like. As far as I'm concerned Lexus has been doing the best interiors for years and cadillac seems to be headed more int he lexus direction, while the Germans are doing God knows what. The STS interior is a definite improvement over the CTS and we all know the interior was the biggest source of criticism for the CTS. Assuming the CTS' interior upgrade in '05 makes it looks like the STS the CTS could definitely become one of the class leaders.
By the way a neighbor who took a euro-sport LS in October paid full sticker as did two other town friends I know who bought in December. Lastly if you go to Ray's motor car web-site (not his Lexus site but his overall site) don't pay attention to the new car availability list. It's way out of date - at least for Lexus and probably every other brand he sells.
Business Week Online has an article all about Lexus. In it they mention "Project Mount Everest," a supercoupe that Lexus claims will hold its own against the $141,800 Aston Martin DB7 Vantage and $113,250 Mercedes SL55 AMG. The car is said to have a V10 engine and Lexus says it may be introduced as soon as the Tokyo Motor Show this fall. If that's true then it would make sense to have a concept version out at this time. Oh, by the way, the expected price is $150,000.
Against All Odds - The Story of the Toyota Motor Corporation and the Family that Created It. by Togo and Wartman (1993)
The trials and tribulations section of how the company started and barely survived WWII that makes up most of the book is bracketed by an introduction to the terror they went through deciding to risk doing Lexus and the final chapter where they reaped their rewards.
The last chapter talks about their market research that helped them define the Lexus cars. It also energized their committment to create an incredible customer service organization that they also made very low-key.
It might help clear away alot of the cobwebs and speculation that develops here about Toyota's intentions and Lexus' genesis.
This fall the new SLK 350 will be the first model to debut with the next generation engine, a 268hp V6. This engine of course will make its way over to the E320 giving us the E350, next C-Class, ML and it will be present in the SL350 (Europe only) and the CLS350 (next Feb). It will also power the upcoming GST (rumored R-Class).
CAR and Autoweek are both reporting that as per usual practice there will be two new V8s. One is a 4.6L with 355hp and the other is a 5.5L with 405hp. These will no doubt power the next generation S-Class (S450 I'm guessing because S460 doesn't sound quite right) and S550. Of course the SL500 will become the SL550 and the next base CL will be the CL550. You can knock off about 4 hp on each for U.S. figures. With the right pricing there could be 6-cylinder S-Class in the U.S. again.
The next generation AMG V8 cars will get a high-revving 6.3L V8 with over 500hp. Autoweek is reporting that Mercedes has already registered the name CLS63 among others. The two V12s stay the same for now.
The bad news is that it is also being reported that Mercedes is going forward with an idrive like system for the next S and CL, only. The British press says that they don't intend to implement this system on the lower level cars.
Also, the new CLS that just debuted at Geneva in production form that would normally come here this fall won't be released here until Feb 2005, to ensure launch quality is right for the U.S. market. The new SLK's interior looks to be of much higher quality than the previous car, even Edmunds said so, a big deal as they're one of the biggest complainers about some Mercedes' recent model's decline in interior quality. Hopefully this new emphasis on interior quality and reliability will be carried over to the next S-Class because the engine lineup looks like it will be class leading. It seems that someone in Germany is finally seeing that there is a problem and actually doing something about it.
M
This is my only gift to myself in 40 years, and I bought the car, so it pains me to see things like this. I think that is the intention by people who do things like this.
Sometimes I'm afraid to park too far away from other cars as it invites attention. And then there are those buffoons who double park. That's asking for a scratch.
Recently, someone dented my father-in laws 2000 LS400, probably with the use of a elbow bashed in the driver side rear quarter panel. The dent ran almost the full height of the rear fender from top to bottom. Good thing paintless dent removal got most of it out.
You know that's what sucks about owning a luxury car. People get jealous of what you have and go around vandalizing it.
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=07456387
But I disagree with the article. Toyota will want Supra to compete with 350Z, so 100K+ is out of the question. Now there might be a very pricey Lexus variant off the platform to compete with Infiniti GTR, but that's a different story.
We are living in the best of times (car wise), more cars than ever to choose from in this category and they all just keep getting better!
I am in Japan on a business trip right now for 10 days, and watching the car landscape here is interesting. The Toyota's seem to own the high end market for the most part, in several days I have only spotted 2 Mercs and 3 Beemers here, while I have seen the Toyota LS4xx equivalent relatively often. And if you see Japanese roads, you see why the cars handle differently than Autobahn stormers - lots of very slow speed extremely low radius turns, lots of wheel turning that needs a lot of assistance in a heavier car. What's odd is how "right" cars feel in their native environment: I got carted around in an older LS400, and it was great, a 3 hour drive passed by quickly. On the other hand, a one hour drive in a 3 series made me very glad when it was over. Similalry, when I lived in Germany a 3 series was the tool of choice for high speed highway business drives for several hours, it just felt marvelously planted.
Wards engine awards are trumpeted by ever automaker that gets 'em and you're some guy on the net.
Whose opinion has more credibility?
That must be why the the 3.2 liter MB consumes more fule than the 3.3 liter Toyota and not meeting ULEV standards whereas the Toyota does.
Um, OK, I wonder if gearing, aerodynamics or weight might have an effect on fuel efficiency IN ADDITION to the engine?
Was Toyota's 3.0L v6 ULEV compliant when it was introduced? I don't know. I thought the 3.3L v6 from Toyota was updated last year. You'd expect some improvement in an updated engine.
That must be why MB is finally replacing the 3-valv/2-spark engines with 4-valve engines in the upcoming lineup.
I think the more likely reason is that unwarranted criticism from buyers who insist on DOHC and 4 valves in the luxury market.
You do realize DOHC engines come with tradeoffs, don't you? The extra cams take up more space and limit displacement, which is what's needed to provide low end torque and up max. torque.
Mercedes is able to offer a 5.0L SOHC v8 which has more torque and power than their competitors', all of whom are offering 4.3 to 4.6L DOHC v8s.
I'm not criticizing DOHCs with continuous VVT on intake and exhaust. I'm just saying there are other ways to get things done. And technology ain't gonna move forward if companies aren't allowed to explore alternative solutions b/c of market demand for DOHC.
Being 90 degree unit is a cost-saving meassure because the block is a chop-off of a V8. In other words, it's hardly a point worth bragging.
It's both cost-saving and a bragging point. I have never driven a 90 degree v6 as smooth as MB's. I would never be able to tell that it's not a 60 degree v6. That's impressive, b/c it's usually not too difficult to tell when you're driving a 90 degree v6.
Honda uses the SOHC on family sedans for the low-cost markets like the Accord V6 for North America (the Euro Accord is sold here as Acura TSX, costing more than the North America V6 Accord even having only a DOHC I4). Honda puts a DOHC V6 in the NSX. That goes to show you where SOHC engines belong nowadays (cost savings); it's a damn shame that MB still puts those (and have one less valve than even the Accord V6) in a car that costs twice as much as an Accord V6 (E series, where the most frequent useage of 3.2 V6 is found)
I guess I'm less concerned with cost savings and more concerned with performance than you are.
If the SOHC v6 performs just as well as a DOHC v6, why do you care that the manufacturer is saving $? Is it your goal to extract every ounce of value out of the manufacturer?
Besides, the SOHC v6s are in Honda's luxury line. Acura TL and MDX are going to have SOHC v6s. No one yet knows what engine the RL will have other than that it's a 3.5L v6, but it will probably be a SOHC v6 as well.
Did they win on name brand, or low-cost? The MB 90degree 3-valve twin-spark V6 certainly is not a smooth running engine, compared to either the Toyota VVTi V6's or even the Honda SOHC V6's, and make significantly less power than either Japanese competition. No wonder MB is finally moving to 4-valve designs in the near future.
Hmmm . . . if all this is true, how come MB's 90 degree v6 is on Ward's 10 Best and Toyota's 3.3L v6 isn't? I'm not knocking Toyota here, their old 3.0L v6 was also one of Ward's 10 Best but I've never found the MB to be a thrashy engine.
As for NVH, every Lexus typically has better NVH than the comparable MB. It's something that Toyota focuses on, I don't know that it's due to the engines.
As for its power, the MB v6 was powerful when it was introduced. I'm sure MB could update the technology to produce more power, but they've chosen to go with the standard DOHC game. It's clear that's what the luxury markets demand, and MB has to comply.
It's native environment is the U.S.
The fact that it works in the tight turns of Japan shows how well the design worked when taken back to Japan.
Footie - The original LS400 design - as I remember - was bred to be a US car but I am sure Toyota had the Japanese and Asian markets in their radar scopes. They didn't count on Europe since they weren't going to build the cars there and knew that would take a long time to penetrate. Anyone who goes to Europe often enough knows that you need to build your products in Europe to win over the market unless you are a monopoly. That's why its funny to read all the dissing comments on the board about Lexus from European car lovers. If Lexus was invented from an enthusiast standpoint it would have been out of business in 2 years or less. Business usually rules over emotion. There are exceptions though - witness VW these days.
1. The V8 is meant to signify the new IS will be even more sporting than the current IS and is an acknowledgement of America's love of cubic inches.
2. As a coupe it helps reposition the IS as a sportier car (although there will be a sedan).
The article also says the current IS buyer's average age is 30, the youngest for any Toyota/Lexus. Also, Toyota is dramatically rethinking the next IS because of its poor sales.
All reports to date speculate that there was going to be 3 variants of the next gen IS - coupe, sedan and conv. Does the Forbes article confirm this ? Does the article say anything about a hybrid engine (V6 or V8) for the IS ? How many trims/engines will the next IS have ? And will it have the I6 or a new V6 (like in the 2006 GS300 ?
Pablo: I do travel to Japan a lot and can confirm some of your cursory observations. Last December on a business trip to Tokyo, I was toted around in my company VP's black/black 2002 S500. That drive was the most pleasant and soothing I had ever had in 5+ years of trips to Japan. It was superb. Loved it. Graceful, smooth, comfortable and rode like walking on air (must have the air suspension). I had only rode in a Celsior while in Japan, an older model (2nd gen), which also drove quite well, but I must admit, the MB rode better. Granted it was an older Celsior (LS in the US/Europe and Australia). I'll be going back to Korea and Japan in June and hope to do more car-toting around (altho' right hand steering is downright dangerous if you are not used to it)
Maybe in their long term thinking the LS might have a place in Japan or in Europe.
But I think they were very, very focused on the U.S. because that was the market they wanted to crack, and crack it they they did.
Did you see the Lexus sales figures for 1Q04. Best ever March and Q1. 65,394 vehicles!
It's interesting that the LS was up 98% for the month and 73% for the quarter, despite the 2004 facelift being, imho, relatively minor. Wonder how they'll do when the all-new car is introduced in CY06.