Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
jstyle,
It will be interesting to see what happens. By this time next year we should know more.
M
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/ae_news_story.php?da=1&id=4- 5233&akwd=mazda_banner
Rx400h pricing hasn't been announced. I think I've read that hybrid adds about 4k of cost to a Prius, but this is bound to fall over time, and Toyota priced aggressively to encourage adoption.
Also, to have a fair comparison to Lexus and Toyota badged versions, we need to find a way to deduct all of the MB's that are sold in Europe that aren't really 'luxury' cars and wouldn't be thought of as luxury cars here or Japan. They include cloth interiors, lower grade accessories and some very small engines. The three lines are the Classic (it comes with steel wheels), Elegance (still has cloth) and Avant Garde (cloth too).
How do we figure those?
I picked up the 2004 today - It's absolutely fabulous.
Edspider1 - you are gonna love it. Ride is great, handling is improved (this is very far removed from an old body 2000 LS400), there's more road feel but its quieter than 2001 and the new rims give the car an athletic look. The improvements are subtle to the non-owner but you'll notice and appreciate them alot. By the way I love the radar cruise and the swivel headlights. As for build quality - the glove box sounds like a bank vault when you close it.
Footie - right on the money re how do you really keep track of true lux sales.
But . . . at my local car wash the manager made me an offer I couldn't refuse and within a couple of hours I had a near-showroom car. No more dings.
That was a couple of weeks ago, and so far so good. But I realize it's only a matter of time.
My underground parking at home is secure, and so is parking at work. I rarely park on the street and don’t go to bars late at night -- late-night street parking near bars is where 90% of vandalism happens I suspect.
My biggest worry is shopping center parking lots. Since the day I saw some idiot use her Explorer's door to tag the fender of a Rolls Corniche and walk away without even a glance backward, I've realized there is a more sinister force than vandalism out there -- stupidity.
The problem is, where do you park? Another poster pointed out that parking in empty areas makes your car more conspicuous. Too true! Another drawback of parking in an empty area is that your car is exposed on both sides. I've actually seen a beater driver park within a foot of my car in a huge near-empty truck stop parking lot. He took care not to strike my door when he got out, but I can't help but wonder what prompts this behavior of having to park next to another car -- some kind of primordial herding instinct perhaps.
Anyway, somebody on one of these boards gave a piece of parking-lot advice that has stood me in good stead: Park beside another nice car. Your exposure is reduced 50% from the get-go, and chances are, the owner of the other car will be considerate. (I always try to park beside the driver's door rather than the passenger's.)
Having a ding-free car is a short-term condition for anybody in today's world. (Same goes for windshields -- I got mine replaced last week and will actually be relieved when it gets its first chip.) Being ding-free is like virginity: of dubious real value, temporary by nature if not design, and gone before you know what happened.
A 600bhp (V8) LS sedan with 50mpg ??
A 400bhp (V6) GS sedan with 60mpg ??
Smelling blood ? That is an understatement ! These cars will truly revolutionize the industry as we know it today. And they are scheduled to be out within the next 24 months. That is even more astounding !!!
Not too long ago, GM was touting its plans for Hydrogen gas-powered cars as the way forward. They challenged and ridiculed Toyota's gas-electric hybrid plans. To top it off, GM even speculated they could have a production version of Hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010. No one in the industry believed the latter timeline. Well, it didn't take long for GM to do an about-face and they have now abandoned this ludicrous idea and agreed that Toyota's PZEV gas-electric hybrid was the correct business model (similar to Intel's 64-bit Itanium chip design vs AMD's Opteron 32-bit/64-bit chip design approach - guess which model won out ? AMD's. Now Intel is forced to go the same route as AMD ... and poof goes the ~$2B already spent on their 64-bit plans. Ouch !!!).
With the US consumption of fossil fuel-based gasoline increasing, and very questionable world oil reserves, Toyota should make a killing on these hybrid cars. Ljflx is absolutely right. The list of buyers for the LS and GS will be long indeed !!! In some cities, many potential Prius owners are waiting up to 9 months, others have been told they should just wait until next year for the 2005 version. That is a sign of things to come for the RX400h, GS350 GT and LS500 GT. Anyone wants a GS better get in line right now.
He says he doubts Hydrogen Fuel cells will be practical in the next 10 to 20 years it is just too expensive to seperate it from whatever it is attached to (Hydrogen does not appear in nature by itself it is always in something like H2O for example.)
Toyota looks like a very good investment right now.
Hydrogen fuel cell - Didn't GM just say they were abandoning it?
BTW the EPA tests are outdated...the typical Prius owner gets about 44mpg in mixed driving. I understand that the EPA won't let Toyota show anything other than the EPA numbers, though.
I don't think the process causes pollution.
Again All my comments are from memory of talks with my brother-in-law who lives on the East coast while I am on the West coast, The last time I saw him was about 7 months ago.
As for Lexus - they will also target the performance market for the first time and they will probably do it first class and near perfect - like the origonal LS400. It will be hard for anyone to resist their cars or make the accusations seen on this board in the past. Most importantly - for me - I will have 100% confidence that Lexus will make the hybrid as near perfect as the gas engined cars. I will have no such faith in MB, BMW or Audi doing the same when they counter. Jaguar - maybe because I thought I read they did a deal with Toyota. But I'm not an XJ fan.
Lastly - Toyota has patented virtually everything they've done in the hybrid space. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out on the business side. By the way I've been in the showroom 3 times in 10 days and the foot traffic is the most I've ever seen. They are quite busy even during the week. Saturdays are a circus. That's why I picked up the car last night. It's still not easy to get a GX - they are pre-sold well into May and the LS is pre-sold for all of April. The sales charts are indicative of what I see in my dealers showroom.
ljflx is right. I've only had it a few hours, but I noticed lots of improvements throughout over the 2001. Bluetooth works just great. The rear camera is fun. The ride is indeed even smoother and quieter. I love smart access, too. The flint mica is beautiful and the antique walnut much nicer than the purple stuff my 01 had.
This is a perfect car to tide me over until that hybrid comes out! I hope they make an LS430h as I don't really want 600HP.
M
Lexus is going to make a 400 or 500hp LS model to sell to people who already think 290hp is enough and don't even care about hp, or at least when someone else does it. All that talk about how dangerous hp is I guess doesn't apply to a 500hp LS because it will somehow be safer with its 4 sec 0-60 times and 155mph+ capablilies, as will its driver. Only people who own E55s and M5s drive wreckless.
MB, BMW and Audi better abandon all their high-hp cars because the everyone will want a hybrid. Nonsense.
There will be room on the market for both concepts. Not everyone will want to deal with the complexity of a 400hp Hybrid, or a diesel. Neither concept is going to replace the regular S500 or LS430. Nor will these concepts replace cars like a M or AMG series.
M
Oh my ! Just imagine MB copying Lexus ????
I know this looks like a Lexus-fest, with us Lexophiles excited about our prefered auto manufacturer's future. BUT, there is plenty to be excited about Toyota/Lexus' future prospects in the auto industry.
BTW, on a different note, I have always wondered why MB canibalizes their own trim lines with so many clones. For example:
CLK vs CL - why ? Both are 2-door coupes, but differ greatly in price (engine hp difference ?)
SLK vs SL - why ? Both are 2-door roadsters, but hugely different price-wise (engine hp difference ?)
Where is Merc1 when you need answers to MB questions ?
The SLK and SL. Come on now, you don't see the reason or difference here? The SL is the luxury roadster and the SLK is more of the sports car, or at least wants to be. We'll have to see what the new one does.
Why does Lexus have the LS430 and GS430 when then are so close in base price? What is it 48k vs 56K(?) for two cars with the same engine? Same reason why Mercedes has the CLK/CL and SL/SLK, sure some of them share engines, but their missions are different. I can't believe you don't see that? The LS is the luxury car first, the GS is sportier, ditto SL and SLK, same for the CLK and CL.
Both the SL and SLK are so far apart in price and mission to the point of almost never being cross shopped. How many Lexus fans would consider the SL? Quite a few according to these boards, but I've never seen any of them mention the SLK. Same goes for the CL and CLK, their prices are waaay apart, and they both sell as well or outsell anything else in their price range. The CL in particular makes it market segment, as the only true competitors might be the Aston-Martin DB7, Jaguar XK8/R Coupe and certain Ferraris, which are way more $$$$$$. There is no canibalization going within MB in the least. None.
Don't believe in having more models? Lexus does. You can bet there will be a new IS Coupe, Convertible and Sedan, just the like the 3-Series and V8 performance variant. Why have the SC430 and a IS??? Convertible? Different cars thats why. If anything Lexus (if they do all these variants of the next LS) will be using the S-Class/7-Series rulebook about variety in that class.
For the record the only companies that canabalize their own sales are the Japanese. The LS430 has rendered the GS430 obsolete when Lexus buyers go looking for a upscale sedan, they barely move 150 GS430s a month. Look at obvious annihilation of Acura's RL with the TL. Look at the spec sheet for either the previous TL Type S or the new 2004 TL and I bet you couldn't come up with one valid reason to buy a RL. It's hopelessly outdone by its cheaper sibling, has been since 2002. Look the Q45 vs the M45 at the Infiniti house. Same interior, engine and everything, only difference is styling, room and price, and even worse one was a sales dud (Q45) before the other (M45) arrived. If anything the Japanese need to learn how not to canibalize their own cars. No non-AMG/M model Mercedes-Benz or BMW show up their higher priced siblings like this or interfere with their sales. If there is one thing Mercedes and BMW know how to do is place their model lineup correctly. Now the CLS will test this theory.
I guess it is every Lexus fan's dream to have MB or any other Euro maker copy Lexus since just the opposite has being happening since 1990.
M
Our likes, dislikes and needs are different in some ways.
In addition...We are far more objective in evaluating these cars then the Europeans who make the Merc's and BMWs and Audi's...or...the Japanese who make the Lexus.
Based on N. American sales figures the LS is a better high end car for US then the Merc. or Audi or BMW
If the europeans play the diesel game in N.A... and succeed. You can bet Toyota will not be far behind with thier Common rail turbo diesel in perhaps a GS ES ????? But for now Hybrids ICE/Electric seems to offfer for advantages over ICE diesels.
http://www.dieselnet.com/news/0310toyota.html
"When equipped with the D-CAT, the Toyota Avensis will be the cleanest diesel car in the world in regards to both NOx and PM emissions. With PM at 0.002 g/km and NOx at 0.12 g/km—90% and 50%, respectively, below the Euro 4 standard—the Avensis beats any other diesel car on the market, including those fitted with particulate filters, according to Toyota."
As for super powerful cars - those powerful engines will be a fraction of the real sales. What do you expect - Lexus to enter the performance sector with 275HP engines?? They want the headlines and they are going to set the goals and the bar very high. The mainstream car will be a 350-400HP equivalent but it will also be a hybrid availability and it will get super mileage. It will also get a lot of buyers and a long wait list as well.
Oh yes definetly, no argument there, but some of what I'm reading is a little too precious. I'm sure hybrids will catch on big time in the luxury class, as they have with the masses no doubt, but to say MB, BMW and Audi should give up big hp and sporty models is absurd. I mean really how does anyone here know that diesels won't catch on again here? I mean aren't luxury car buyers astute enough to know or at least learn (research) that diesel technology is not the same as it was during the admittedly crummy 1980s?
I disagree totally that sales figures determine which car is better for the U.S. market, you're ignoring price which is a facter here. Even still the LS only outsold the next two cars by about 5K units thats hardly resounding proof of anything especially when you look at what the entry level S-Class and 7-Series costs.
M
If the europeans play the diesel game in N.A... and succeed. You can bet Toyota will not be far behind with thier Common rail turbo diesel in perhaps a GS ES ????? But for now Hybrids ICE/Electric seems to offfer for advantages over ICE diesels.
http://www.dieselnet.com/news/0310toyota.html
"When equipped with the D-CAT, the Toyota Avensis will be the cleanest diesel car in the world in regards to both NOx and PM emissions. With PM at 0.002 g/km and NOx at 0.12 g/km—90% and 50%, respectively, below the Euro 4 standard—the Avensis beats any other diesel car on the market, including those fitted with particulate filters, according to Toyota."
I don't know how you can even mention the LS430/GS430 in the same vein as the SL/SLK or CL/CLK combos. Seemed to me too much of a stretch to make your point, isn't it ?
I will agree with you about the examples of Infiniti and Acura canibalizing their vehicles. Need to include Audi and VW in your examples too.
I'm curious as to why you would you get excited about a 400hp LS, when such hp is useless per all the talk done in here? Great gas mileage for a 400hp car that most Lexus owner will never push??? Doesn't make any sense. BTW, 400hp won't cut it anymore 500 is becoming the standard for performance biased cars.
M
Have you noticed the quickness of this car both at 0-60 and in torque. I'm dying to just floor it but I can already see the flashing lights in my rear view mirrow. I can't believe its the same engine as before. Plus the engine is even quieter - if that's possible.
I'll take the hybrid version in 2007.
Enjoy.
merc1 - I said 350-400 for the mainstream car. I'm also talking annual sales not accumulated sales in diesels. Besides Toyota will have no problem bringing a diesel to market if they want to. But the diesel just won't work here. I don't know anything for a fact. Just know my business intuition and its usually right. By the way I couldn't care less who copies who. Just give me a great reliable car.
You're right about VW and Audi, they're insanely planning for Audi and VW to go model for model at the upper reaches, while it will produce some interesting cars, it doesn't make sense.
M
The appeal will be if Lexus does these hp numbers with better gas mileage, which I don't doubt they will, but that will probably be the only advantage of buying one, 400hp is still 400hp.
I know you were talking about annual sales, my point is that many a Benz diesel owner have been waiting so they shouldn't have a problem moving diesels here again, there is a pent-up demand. There is no way for either of us to know whether or not they'll be successful, its all speculation at this point.
M
What I absolutely hate to see is people - usually kids - weaving in and out of traffic endangering people to show off. Four kids just got killed on a winding stretch of the Northern state pkwy in Long Island - where I've seen that type of driving often. They were going so fast the car got split in two by a large tree. Too much power - in the wrong hands - borders on irresponsibility. Remember the speed posts of a few weeks ago - it was in that area of Long Island. But ultimately its the driver that needs to control themself.
I say find the "correct" road and circumstance and floor that thing, safely.
M
Why? Because IMHO it isn't a luxury car. It's just a Mercedes, like the taxi's all over Europe. They aren't Luxury Taxi's. They are just taxis.
I wasn't trying to make the Lexus/Toyota luxury number as great as the Mercedes numbers, which are still larger. But you can't compare the Toyota/Lexus number to all of MB's sales, because they definitely are not all luxury cars in the same class as the Toyota/Luxury cars (or anyone elses for that matter).
OK, host, let me have it.
Not saying that all Paris taxis are like that, but this one was great.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Like all the Lexus owners here, I'm quite excited about the upcoming hybrids. Here's a few reasons why I think the Hybrid will be more popular
1) It makes use of existing Gas stations, no one has to go searching for diesel
2) It's cleaner than a comparable gas or diesel alternative.
3) The performance of a hybrid is significantly enhanced and it gives higher gas mileage to boot.
4) It's a revolutionary technology, not an evolutionary one as the newer diesels are. These sort of things generate a buzz, as the Prius has for the past few years.
It's a safe bet that the industry will be moving toward this technology given the pros. Toyota has already licensed it to Ford, and I feel it's only a matter of time before the others adopt it. Toyota will be at a signficant advantage given that they own most of the patents.
Provided the new LS looks as good as the original, I'll be trading my '02 LS in 2007. All this revolutionary technology is nice, but I won't bother buying the car if it's yet another S Class clone. Let's see whether Lexus is really dedicated towards carving their own identity design wise.
SV
Question about your XJ8..How has it been treating you so far? I've been seriously thinking about getting a 98-03 XJ. The new one just looks too much like an X type to me. When I saw it, I mistook it for the smaller car.
I've read a great deal about the XJ reliability. From what I hear, the days of rusting gas tanks and other horrendous repairs are past..For the most part, owners comment on minor repairs here and there. I've been spoiled by my LS cars, but the XJ8 is quite pretty so I'm willing to tolerate the quirks. (Much like a high maintenance woman!) What is Jaguar service and overall ownership experience like?
Much thanks for your input,
SV
Personally I don't see hybrid as being the death-knell of MB or anything so dramatic. However I do think it a very important technology, and Toyota (and to some extent Honda) are clearly ahead of others. As long as the technology is still on a path of significant improvements, Lexus may stay a step or two ahead, and this will enable it to either gain some market share or improve profitability or a bit of both. Witness that despite licensing from Toyota, Ford's first hybrid vehicle will use technology based on the FIRST-generation Prius, yet be introduced a year AFTER the SECOND-generation Prius.
Just kidding, I know it won't happen...but maybe a fair amount of money will change hands instead.
I read these LS 430 posts and am impressed by the joy it brings to the owners. But, the two times in the past 6 months that I have dragged myself to a dealer and looked at the car I still couldn't do it. "Have a seat inside, Sir" the salesman would offer. "No thanks. I have no question about the inside or the ride. That's not my problem" I would reply. Seriously -- two times.
And it really has been "my problem" since Lexus didn't seem to have any misgivings and buyers aren't staying away. So, my longing for the low running, gently curvacious, subtle lines of my '92 LS400 would stay unfulfilled.
Sounds a bit romantic, doesn't it? Well, I thought since we already have a lot of discussion on reliability, ride, speed, electronics, owner's manual, Consumer Reports, and the like, why not just plain old romance? We all know that it is a factor most of the time, so let it come out!
All you have to say is, "I love my car! With all of what it has and doesn't have, it was my choice."
Now we all feel better! OK, back to normal now.
Does anyone know if they licensed this technology from Toyota that had it for the aluminum DOHC 4 valve per cyclinder V8 they introduced in the 1989 Lexus 400 about 15 years ago?
I couldn't agree with you more on the Romantic aspect of buying a car. It is what made me buy my 92. One look was all it took in 1990, as I watched one drive by me. For two years I snuck up to LS400's in the parking lot and peered inside. I finally got sick and tired of looking and bought one.
I nearly traded it in for a '98 three years back. The next morning I ran back to the dealer to pull it out of the deal. There is just something about that car, perhaps it's the flair of the design. Maybe it's just the feel the car has to it, like it was built to last forever. I liked the 1998, but it was rather bland in design. The '02 has plenty of electronic toys, but doesn't do much for me in terms of styling. I only buy these cars as I'd like my primary car to be under warranty.
This whole Romance idea is what has drawn me to the XJ8 (98-03) Sure, it's not the most advanced car out there, but it is unique. There is nothing that spells elegance more than a XJ. From the sleek exterior to the amazing gentleman's club interior it's really something. Durability issues aside, I think the 98-03 car is one of the best looking of the whole lot.
I have to say, we really haven't considered the whole Romance factor in the purchase decision. Perhaps this is one of the intangibles others have refered to on this board.
SV
You now know what I threw a lot of disclaimers into my comments.
I know the membrain plays a critical role in the process (at least I think I know that)