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High End Luxury Cars

18485878990463

Comments

  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      I think the GT has a refreshing look. It's definitely unique. That sort of underscores what is routinely discussed here. Each manufacturer needs to have it's own look. I am not terribly impressed with the latest offerings from MB, BMW, Lexus, and Jaguar. Here are my gripes:

    1) BMW= I think Bangle says it all..It looks like something out of a Taiwanese cartoon..The Z4 and 745 just look too bloated
    2) MB= For $90K You think they could design a rear end that doesn't look like it was stolen from a Honda. The low profile of the car, however, is great. The interior design is pretty good, but you'd think it would be more luxuorious for the $$$.
    3) Lexus= Competely insipid designs here. The RX330 gives me some hope for the future. I wish they'd made the LS430 with those new headlights from the beginning. It adds a bit of spice to an otherwise dull design. I wasn't going to trade in my '02 though for just that. The Interior is like a palace, but it isn't as sleek as the Original LS. The dash seems abit bulky to me.
    4) Jaguar=Ahh! Why did they mess with Perfection? The new XJ looks too much like the X type. The lines of the new car seem less well defined. The rear of the car is just disappointing. It lacks the flair of the previous model. At least it retains the 1st class interior.

    Any one want to agree/disagree with the above?

    SV
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I wasn't trying to be critical, just genuinely curious. BTW, I was an economics major myself.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    There's a good and easy to understand reference to hydrogen extraction at:

    http://www.alternatefuels.com/hydrogen.htm

    No discussion there about membranes.

    Proton exchange membranes are used in some fuel cell designs where hydrogen and oxygen are fed to a cell to produce electricity.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    S-class - It's my opinion that the rear of the S-class and the overall silhouette of the car took a lot of cues from the Ford Taurus. Merc1 disagrees entirely but put them side by side and decide for yourself. Particularly look at the lines on the side, its side profile, rear deck lid and rear lights. They didn't copy it - just lifted some styling cues and in my opinion perfected them into a gorgeous car. Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with lifting styling cues from another design - nor would it ever affect a purchase decision on my part - but some MB lovers need to think that the company does everything from scratch and leads in everything. It doesn't and it can't. No company can. Interior of S-class is nice but it leaves a lot to be desired given the cost of the car.

    7 series - 2-4 different car designs combined into one. Great front end though. Decent interior that is very mens clubbish.

    Jag - timeless to so many - just never appealed to me before or after re-design. Also too cramped inside for my needs but a stunning interior.

    LS430 - I think the new 2004 brings back some of the LS400 look. The latter was a timeless classic car as far as I'm concerned. Interior is stunning and a lot nicer than old model. But I liked that interior as well. It was more business like, this one is more homey.

    A8 - beautiful in and out - very original, probably the most, along with the 7 of any car here. But Audi got it right. I just don't like the ride of the car or its reliability record. But there are so few on the road and thats nice if you own or lease one.

    Phaeton - Have yet to see one but its a re-packaged A8 - just not as appealing.

    Q45 - Don't like anything about it.
  • dwongswongdwongswong Member Posts: 62
    This board seems to be only about Lexus and Mercedes. Does anyone here own an A8L? If I had about $80k to put down on any car, it would be an A8L--until the A8 SWB arrives. The exterior is gorgeous. The interior is beautiful. The ride is a little sporty for it's size (which I like--not too soft or too sporty). I like the roominess, because I'm always driving people around. I like the trunk space, because I'm usually carrying something. The only thing I wish it had was a better sound system and a quieter interior like the Lexus LS430. Other than that, this car is great.

    Hopefully, A8L owners will sing its praises too. I currently own a 2003 A6 and absolutely love it. Maybe when I come into some money soon, I will go and get one for myself.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    They need 2 years to sell what Lexus and Mercedes combined sell in 4 weeks. That's why the Audi gets lost here.
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    merc1,

    Thanks for the MB future engine update. I have been traveling for business and had to catch-up on the postings.

    I am still very interested in the current and future S600. I think that the current S-class are just beautiful automobiles especially after the recent slight exterior updating. Also, although I like the brief new S-Class pictures on Autospies, I am concerned about the potential looks of the future S-Class if it looks too much like the new E-Class. Basically, although the new E-Class looks good it is not wearing on me as well as I believed it would.

    One thing I love about the MB V-12 (versus the BMW and Audi) is the loads of torque - thanks to the dual supercharging. There has been a lot of post that are focusing only on HP but with typical USA drivers and overcrowded highways high torque is more practical.

    I spend much of my driving time in the US either driving on the eastern I-95 corridor (mostly around NYC or DC) and then in Texas. This is also with a few occasional cross country drives when my schedule permits during rare weeks. (Note: Even though I have one of my homes in Texas, I have to say that Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma must have the worst drivers in the US - many no doubt directly from Mexico).

    That being said, the US has to have the worst average drivers of most any industrial country in the world. It is a joy to drive in Europe or even in parts of California and Washington (other then clogged metro rush hours) where drivers move to the right lane and other wise display proper driving habits and training.

    A luxury car with lots of torque allows me to shot away, between and beyond these $@*%#& drivers. I guess this is much like the postings many of you were doing on luxury cars getting scratched.

    Jim
  • johncaliforniajohncalifornia Member Posts: 28
    I bought my 1998 XJ8 (anthracite/black) two months ago with 50K on the clock. It's going in this week for an oil change with 54K miles, and highly enjoyable ones, too.

    I'll be using an honest and competent Jag specialty shop -- like most enthusiast owners I avoid the dealer service departments whenever possible. They're exorbitantly expensive for routine operations like oil changes, and prone to swapping components rather than repairing them -- a costly approach when the warranty is expired. (I don’t bother with third-party warranties.)

    I bought my XJ8 privately from a VERY fussy original owner (I had to prove I’d take good care of his car!) and have all the car’s records, including the original bill of sale. Most of my test drive involved my watching how the owner drove the car. I'd consider buying an XJ from the used section of a Jag dealership, but would never buy a used Jag from a non-Jag used car lot -- they can provide no service history, which is essential in my opinion.

    My '98 already had its weak points attended to: the water pump and throttle body had been replaced under warranty. The 1998 - 2000s have Nikasil engines but I'm in California so don't have to worry about high-sulphur gas. If you're in a high-sulphur region you should consider getting a leak-down test to see if high-sulphur gas has damaged the cylinder bores. If the answer is no, your Nikasil engine should run for hundreds of thousands of miles – they virtually never wear out.

    The secondary cam chain tensioners are a weak point on this engine. They usually give warning when prematurely wearing -- rough running at start and clattering in the timing chain area. My engine runs like silk from fire-up but at 80K miles or so I'll spend $750 to replace the cam chain tensions purely as a precaution.

    Why did I buy the XJ? My previous car was a 1995 BMW 740i, an outstanding car in every way. I wanted something more intimate and was willing to trade some performance for luxury and ambiance.

    The Jaguar has proven to be a peerless cruiser. It makes my 75-mile daily commute in the Bay Area's chaotic traffic almost a pleasure. Unlike the BMW, where I'd boom along in the fast lane in a futile attempt to "make time," the Jag and I happily putter along at 65 in the middle lane while I enjoy music from my iPod through the excellent (optional) Harman Kardon sound system.

    As the old saying goes, you'll know within 10 minutes of driving one whether you're a Jaguar man. If you discover you are, be ready to get a lot of attention. Even in the affluent area I live in, XJs are, if not rare, not commonplace either, as are all the big German, American and Japanese luxury models. The XJ gets more admiring looks than any car I've been in since my 1970 XKE roadster. Unless you're big (over 6 feet tall, or obese), you'll find the interior a warm and relaxing environment. So much so that to my surprise, I don't stress about making time anymore -- I just sit back in that Connolly leather and, while making room for the tweaker from the adjacent lane to butt in ahead of me, make a mental note to replenish the Gray Poupon so we'll have something to go with the leftover roast leg of lamb.

    The ’98 XJ8 is functionally "all there." You won't miss anything if you're transitioning from a luxo-car of similar vintage. If I had my druthers (and the big dollars required) I'd look for a 2002 – 2003 Vander Plas Super V8 variant of the XJ. But they are extremely rare and their prices are staying well up in the stratosphere -- while at the same time you can get a well-kept '98 XJ like mine for well under $20K.

    Be careful of used XJRs: while good ones are to be had, a lot these supercharged models were leased, thrashed, not regularly maintained, returned to the Jag dealerships, and, failing to qualify for Jaguar’s stringent Select Edition standards, auctioned off to be sold by independent used car lots. My service shop says such cars will have far more powertrain issues than regular or VDP XJs.

    I like ALL cars and don’t see why so much time is wasted on this board in pointless debate about German vs. Japanese. At some other phase of my life I’d gladly have a big Lexus or Mercedes. I’ve already had a big BMW and loved it. My honeymoon with the XJ has been such a success, however, that I won’t find myself missing any of the others anytime soon. To carry on your analogy between women and cars, and bring back a George Harrison song at the same time, there’s just SOMETHING about way she moves. . . .
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It's just like I said before if you can't count all those taxi Mercedes, then you can't count all those so-called "Lexuses" running around in other countries as leathered up Toyotas. We disagree on what makes a "luxury" car obviously. Leather doesn't define it for me.

    I'm not trying to say you don't know what you're talking about here, but with the engine thing you really would benefit from doing some research first. Mercedes-Benz has used DOHC 4-Valve-per-cylinder technology in 1980s with the 190E 2.3-16V and again from 1989-1997 with all of their V8, inline 6 and 4-Cylinder engines during those years. The 3-Valve-per-cylinder SOHC engines were/are the "new" designs that Mercedes "implemented" not the DOHC 4valve setup. If you're going to say that Lexus was first with a V8 setup like this, you'd be wrong there also. Ferrari and other sports car makers did it back in the 50's and Mercedes also launched a DOHC 4v V8 in 1989 with the 500SL. I know you'd like to think otherwise, but Lexus is hardly "first" at anything.

    Mercedes, Ferrari, Maserati, Porsche, Alfa-Romeo, Audi (among others) used this technology before Lexus was even thought about. Toyota does not hold a patent on DOHC 4-valve technology so no other company has to consult Toyota about anything, much less a patent. Audi does a 5valve per cylinder layout as does Ferrari and Toyota wouldn't have to ask them anything if they wanted to design their own 5-valve per cylinder engine. BTW, Toyota had 4-valve per cylinder engines (I4 and V6s) before the 1990 LS400 also; I'm surprised you didn't know this. Aluminum, DOHC 4valve-per-cylinder, V8 engine construction all in one combination wasn't Toyota "first" either, Mercedes was there as was Ferrari and others before the mighty Toyota.

    syswei,

    I'm not sure what happened with that, but I too remember something about them at least "talking" with Toyota about their hybrid technology. I couldn't get a straight answer from any of the MB reps at Detroit about anything pertaining to drivetrain of the GST, so I'm not sure. Mercedes and the rest of the European makers are so heavily invested in diesels so their hybrid tech and plans are obviously years behind Toyota and Honda, so I'm not sure. All MB has said is that hybrid S-Class will be sold here, I'm guessing with the next generation.

    Toyota must feel pretty good. I mean really you have your competitors (Ford and Nissan) scrambling to buy your OLD technology, I'm impressed. (Rare moment, take note..lol)

    ljflx,

    Well as always my friend we are on opposite sides of the world when it comes to styling. You see "cues" from a Ford in an S-Class, but you can't see where the LS430 (especially 01-03) looks like a smoothed over Avalon. You say that every company can't be original or do anything from scratch, which is the reasoning any Toyota fan must come up with when looking at their various styling blunders and c____s I guess. European car makers as a whole are far more original than the Japanese, this isn't even debatable when you look at BMW, Jaguar, Audi, MB, Porsche, and others, their designs connect with the past without looking retro at that. Lexus has nothing to draw on here, but the car the consider to be the target. A Jaguar will never, ever look like an Audi.

    The difference between MB and Lexus is that MBs don't look like their competitors, like Lexus' premier car does. So what if the S-Class resembles a Taurus (in your opinion), they'll never be confused like the old S and LS could be by the casual observer, nor are they competitors. That everyone can't be original is just a grand excuse. All the rest of the cars in this class manage to do just that, from scratch and very original. I mean really, think about it, none of the cars we talk about this board look anything alike until you bring the LS into the fold then you're reminded of 12 year old Benz. Lexus with their LS is the one that can't seem to be original or do anything from scratch, not the rest.

    Anyway, past that S-Class/Taurus thing I pretty much agree with your summation on the other cars. I really want to drive the A8 or Phaeton to see what all the complaints about the ride are all about. Design wise I find the A8 to be the best car in this class now, just a hood ornament ahead of the S.

    sv7887,

    I was ready to "disagree" with your post #4601 Item #2, but then I read item #3 so..... I was going to say how in the world could anyone liking Toyota design say anything about anyone else "borrowing" anything from any one else when Toyota is the king of such practice???? However since I did read item #3 ignore the previous sentence.....

    jamesfletcher2,

    Well I'd say go for the current S600 if you're worried about the next generation styling changes. Plus the reliability of the current S (one of your concerns) is much improved since 2000 and you won't have to worry about the next generation car's newness in that area.

    M
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Merc1,

    I thought my question was a fair one. Toyota is not quite so absent of patents and useful original technology in this area as you might have incorrectly inferred in your response.

    As I have recommended before, it is really helpful to look at patent data before you excoriate other posters:

    Go to USPTO website and look up Mercedes and Overhead Cam (to inusre you cover single and double). Do the same for Toyota (and GM and Tecumseh).

    Score: Mercedes 8
    Score: Toyota 43

    Maserati had the oldest one that I could find that was a real DOHC V engine.

    Here's a few Toyota ones for you to enjoy: The first is for a DOHC V multivalve engine. The second for a variable valve timing (VVT) engine. The third for multivalves (intake) per cylinder and the fourth is for a really neat light alloy rocker arm that could be adjusted while the engine was running. The prior art on that one was a cast iron BMW rocker arm.

    The assignee on all of these ( 4 for the 43 ) was Toyota.

    United States Patent
     4,658,769

     Horio ,   et al.
    April 21, 1987
     V-type internal combustion engine with centrally located drive gears coupling double overhead camshafts

    United States Patent
     4,305,352

     Oshima ,   et al.
    December 15, 1981
     Internal combustion engine

    Abstract

    An internal combustion engine is so constructed that the timing of the intake and exhaust valves can be changed during operation of the engine making it possible to select the optimum timing for the valves in accordance with the operating conditions.

    United States Patent
     4,285,310

     Takizawa ,   et al.
    August 25, 1981
     Dual intake valve type internal combustion engine

    Abstract

    A dual intake valve type internal combustion engine comprises a main intake valve and an auxiliary intake valve. The main intake valve is so constructed that the combustible gas mixture introduced into the combustion chamber therethrough is caused to generate a swirl motion. A variable valve lift type of auxiliary intake valve is constructed, and the valve lift of the auxiliary intake valve is varied in accordance with the changes in the engine operating conditions.

    United States Patent
     4,147,074

     Noguchi ,   et al.
    April 3, 1979
     Aluminum alloy rocker-arm
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    A couple of posters have suggested that GM may have abandoned its hydrogen fuel cell development project recently. I can't find anything to corroborate this and would welcome more info or links.

    I did run across a very interesting article from the MIT Technology Review explaining hydrogen's problems...

    http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/wo_romm031704.asp

    registration is required but is free and easy
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The patents you list still don't disprove what I said earlier that Toyota wasn't first, Maserati or Ferrari were. Nor does MB have to even look in Toyota's direction for anything in the way of licensing or permission to do DOHC V8 because Toyota doesn't hold squat today on this type of engine design. A DOHC V8, Toyota FIRST did not offer 32Valve V8. Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and Mercedes all did it before (the first three) or at the same time (Mercedes) as Toyota did.

    Toyota wasn't first in the luxury area either, both MB and Toyota offered DOHC, multivalve V8s in the same year, 1989, for the 1990 model year.

    I don't need a list of patents to know this, hence the difference between you and I. You live for patents and stats about things like engines when they don't even tell the story, especially when it comes to who got the patent first vs. when the technology was actually on the street in the hands of actual buyers. I remember it when it was being done, not when a patent office told me so. You wouldn't even know any of this if it weren't for the patent office.

    Neither you nor I mentioned variable valve timing, so I'm not sure why you're listing that, it wasn't in question with me. Lets stay on track here.

    Didn't say Toyota doesn't have useful technology, I said that they are not first in most cases. They are the masters at improving technology that has already been laid down by others.

    Like I've said before you seem to always miss this, patents can be and are given for improvements to existing technology also. Toyota wasn't first to offer a DOHC multivalve V8, nor does Mercedes or anyone else have to consult them before offering their own design, which was my point. You tried to imply that Mercedes in 2004 would have to get some sort of permission or licensing from Toyota to "implement" DOHC multivalve technology and my answer to that is still that Toyota wasn't first to do a DOHC 32V V8, nor does MB have to seek their approval of anything and that MB has done this type of engine before. These points still stand, regardless of you finding patents about (irrelevant) VVT and rocker arm details, as these two details have nothing to do with what you said earlier.

    M
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    43 to 8 WOW
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    When did FIRST become more important then BEST?
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Merc1,

    If you don't think that the entire auto industry, just like high tech, food processing, pharmaceuticals and just about every manufacturing company that does business in this country doesn't 'look' at intellectual property held by others and try to insure that theirs is protected, then you have missed a key piece of how business works.

    Virtually all 'big' businesses also cross-license IP with each other. It's the smart thing to do, because you don't get caught with your shorts down. Their internal legal shops have IP lawyers and the companies sit down with each other every year at about this time to 'settle' on who's patents are in use and negotiate their relative value. You can bet that Toyota, Honda, DaimlerBenz, VW, BMW, GM, Ford, Nissan, etc. are all cross licensed.

    For example, Texas Instruments used to pay Bell Labs a significant net royalty on their patent portfolio because of Bell's fundamental transistor patents. However, when those expired and TI later gained key patents in the microchip area, the money flowed the other way.

    In general, all patents issued before 1987 have expired (the old 17 year rule). Starting with patents filed in 1995, 20 years is generally the life of the patent.

    Also, the larger and more current your intellectual property portfolio, the better your protection, the stronger your internal focus on developing and protecting innovation and the more likely the money flows your way.

    IBM was awarded 3,215 patents last year and has 23,000 they actively license. The generally are the largest recipient of patents each year in the world.

    Companies that develop proprietary technology and deploy it in production and sell it to others without patent protection, put the technology in the public domain. Anyone could use it.

    For example, if there was something unique and innovative about a 7-speed transmission then DCX would patent it, because selling it without protection would allow anyone to 'copy' it freely. DCX hasn't filed any patents on the 7 speed transmission because it's just incremental technology. DCX has filed a few CVT patents in 2001 - 2004, so maybe they've figured out that when the number of speeds in a transmission approaches infinity that it becomes continuous, sort of like a polygon with an infinite number of sides is called a circle.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Actually I'm quite familiar with patents as I've invested into one with a family members. Great idea (the patent), but wrong people to do business with (family), but that is a whole other story. Amazingly I don't really disagree with any of that, but maybe I should have just answered your original question in the first place.

    No, Mercedes doesn't have to get any licensing permission from Toyota for their upcomming DOHC engine designs, and no Toyota wasn't first at this, and yes Mercedes has done a many DOHC engines before.

    The fact that Toyota has so many patents for smaller details only goes back to highlight what I said before in answer to your implication that the LS400 was first with this engine design, Toyota only improves up existing tech, most of the time and they don't hold anything currently that MB would need to consult them on because A) Toyota wasn't first to begin with and B) the details that they had a patent on has expired, and MB or anyone else needs to consult them this particular engine design. Every automaker under the sun uses DOHC technology.

    Mike,

    If you can honestly tell me what was "best" about Toyota's 1989 DOHC V8 design compared to Mercedes' of the same year, then you'd have something to stand on here, otherwise you're just posting for the sake of doing so with nothing factual to bring to the table. Do you even know what those 43 patents are and what they mean or are you just arguing pointlessly again?

    M
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Merc1,

    It's fun to say stuff like that, and I am sure your feelings are heartfelt.

    I would guess that neither of us have any factual information regarding the patent details of the DOHC engine that MB is introducing.

    To say otherwise, you'd have to be member of their technical staff or IP law department.

    In fact, since I believe that since Toyota and virtually everybody else in the industry is cross-licensed, Mercedes would be crazy not to use what Toyota made available to them through licensing if it were more quickly available than internal development and the same would be true about Toyota using MB technology.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    But you're missing the point they've done DOHC engines before, back in 1989 the same time Toyota did, DOHC ENGINES ARE NOT NEW FOR MERCEDES-BENZ. There was also a DOHC engine 190E during the eighties. This is not new technology for MB!!!

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I think what Michael Mattox means is that doing something best is more important than doing it first, a sentiment I agree with. Some data on MY2004 engines:

    BMW 4.4 liter: 325 hp, 330 lb-ft

    Lexus 4.3: 290/320

    MB 4.3: 275/295

    So based on what is currently shipping, at least, BMW has done the "best" of the three with engines, MB "worst".
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    First I didn't argue anything...I just said WOW to another poster because I thought the sheer numbers were impressive.

    Argue, as you will, over the years the Lexus has proven to be more reliable then the Mercedes. Maybe all those patents had something to do with it and maybe not...I don't know, and frankly don't care because I believe BEST trumps FIRST.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ok the point has been officially lost here. I wasn't saying that MB was the "best" here because they were first, only that they used DOHC technology either before or at the same time as Lexus did, when talking about V8s. Nothing more. I never at any point said that MB was best, if I did please point this out to me because I don't see it written or remember posting it here. 2004 cars were not part of the discussion. Of course BMW's new V8 is superior in the here and now, look at the details on that thing. Naturally the details don't matter when they're lost on you, and it all reverts back to reliability.

    I have finally realized that on this board it is pointless to talk about anything else but reliability, it is the end-all of the automobile. Even a simply debate about engine design back in the day reverts to an updated reliability sermon.

    M
  • andy71andy71 Member Posts: 96
    Since we are talking about reliability, I am old enough to remember the Mercedes SEL which I believe was the predecessor of the S class. That car was built like a tank. In fact, I know someone who owns a 1987 560 SEL that he still drives regularly. I have been a passenger in that car quite a few times and it still drives like a new car (it has about 168K on the odometer). Don't know if it was SOHC or DOHC.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    andys,

    That 560SEL would be a 5.5L SOHC 2-valve/cylinder V8.

    And "built like a tank" doesn't necessarily mean it is/was reliable.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    that goes way back even in passenger cars. The Jaguar Mk I sedan (that debuted in 1955 had DOHC standard on both available motors). Not saying Jag was the first, just pointing out a bump on the timeline.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    that is correct.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I remember those days, Mercedes were concedered the best...

    1) Did they forget how to still make them that way?

    2) Or... do they still make them just as well but the standards have changed? What was good in those days is just AVG. today.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    1) IMHO, I think that they make them different on purpose as a consequence of the marketplace. Plus vehicle technology has changed a lot. The tanks of the past aren't really very modern any more, even though they feel solid. The current S is a lot more nimble than the barges of the 80's and early 90's. Plus MB may be focused on lower cost of production to support more spending on merchandising and marketing. It's a brand 1st, car 2nd for them to make it.

    2) MB improved, but their rate of improvement year to year was much lower than Lexus and Infiniti. Once companies like Lexus get on an improvement track faster than yours, you don't know you are in trouble until they blow by, then you realize that they are moving at a rate faster than you are and you can't figure out how to catch them. It happened in the TV business here in the U.S. Where's Zenith and RCA? Where's their little neighborhood shops that would sell you a set and come adjust it when it got out of whack (all TV sets have problems right?). Nope. The route to success as the technologies changed was to make things that didn't break. Out of the box, into the family room, turn it on and watch it for 10 years. The underlying technology closes any gaps in performance and consumers finally figure that out.

    As an aside, it will be interesting to see if DCX's acquisition of Chrysler is fatal to MB's chances of ever catching Lexus and Infiniti because the money required to invest heavily and change the way they do things at MB is being spent blowing air in the Chrysler life preserver.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Big objection on the US patent data - you are talking about international corporations. Look at the German-Euro patent office http://www.dpma.de/veroeffentlichungen/jahresbericht98/jb_de/seit- e7_2d.htmand the data is different: Daimler 106 - Toyota 87 for '98, and the trend supposedly has not changed much.
  • steven2steven2 Member Posts: 37
    My wife is looking for a used luxury sedan...here's what we've narrowed it down to:

    00' XJ8 w/snrf, 1 owner, 28K miles, $26,988
    00' 740i w/snrf, navi, 6cd, new tires, 56K miles, $28,750
    03' Volvo S80 comparably eqpd, crtfied, 16K miles, $25,600

    please help...the volvo has just as many options as the rest
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Wrong board to post this question. Why not ask the experts on the "Smart Shopper" board ? You can find it here:

    mikefm58 "Real-World Trade-In Values" Apr 5, 2004 11:36pm

    Ask for Terry or Mathias.... In any case, any of the regulars on that board will gladly help you out.

    Me, I'll say "BUY WHAT YOU LIKE". If the Volvo is what your heart aches for, go for it. So that you never had to constantly ask yourself: what if ?

    Good luck.
  • stevesteinstevestein Member Posts: 263
    Oac pointed you to the right board to see if the prices for each car are in the ballpark. As to choices between the cars, it seems like you're stuck between two apples and an orange - as the prices reflect. The BMW and XJ are in a different league as the Volvo.

    If you are happy with the Volvo, go for it. If you want a full size luxury sedan then the others fall into that category. I'd suggest going to the brand-specific sites for each make, and check for owners experiences with cars of that model year and mileage as to any maintenance problems or work to be expected in the near future. Also, you might want to run a carfax on whatever your choice is before inking the deal to make sure there is no bad history to the vehicle.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I happen to NOT dislike the new A6 interior, for the record.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    The link you gave didn't work.

    Anyway, if the patent isn't filed here, it doesn't count, irrespective of where else its filed. There's no reciprocity.

    Generally, major international corps file simultaneously in USPTO, EUPO, Japan and China (with more than a little trepidation).

    If they have more in Germany, then they don't have U.S. coverage for the addditional ones. Pretty dumb in my book unless they are truly unique to the EU marketplace.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    JohnCalifornia,
      Thank you for your great post. It's gives me an insight into what my experience with a modern Jaguar might be like. It really sounds like a great experience.

    For those with multiple cars...Do you all have room for them in your garages? I'm stuck with a two car garage, and I don't think leaving a Jaguar outside on the driveway in this NE weather is a great idea..I'm a car nut, and cannot possibly fathom selling my LS400 to put the Jaguar inside. LOL..My wife is going to kill me when she hears about this. (that's another question..How do you get the wives to play ball with car buying binges?)

    SV
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Hmmh, double negative. I guess you like the interior :).

    (So do I, btw.)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .was intentional. Rather than saying I like the new interior -- and I am pretty sure that I do -- I opted instead to say that I don't dislike it.

    This is not intended to be one of those "it all depends on what the definition of the word "is" is" [sic] kind of things. It is simply to state that I am not yet able to comment in the affirmative having only seen pictures.

    What I have seen, that is, does not make me think it is ugly, bad, worse than the BMW (quite the contrary after the Road & Track photos), etc.

    I like my 2003 allroad interior and see an evolution of the things I like.

    All this comparison to a Chevy truck doesn't quite convince me of anything.

    All of these new German cars have some similar styling cues.

    Frankly, I have to give Cadillac credit for the CTS, SVX and now STS -- they do seem "fresher" than many offerings from all over the world.

    Now, FRESHER doesn't exactly mean that I like it better. But since I am at it, it just means that I don't like it less -- if you get my drift.

    Frankly, after having seen some NY papers talking about the new STS (when I was in NYC last week), I would have to say I will test drive the STS AWD before I pull the trigger on a new A6.

    It will take some impressive engineering to sway me from the Audi, but the STS -- in print -- seems to be a contender.

    "Stella!!! Stella!!!"
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    To get the wives to tolerate your car buying binges, you have to utilize a variant of the "if you can't beat them, join them" attitude. Over the years, I've invited my wife to the car buying "experience" as it was a facet of our quality time together. The result is that she too has become hooked and tends to support me more than discourage me during those often seductive car buying moments.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Tough problem on your hand there.

    We have 3 cars in the family with only 2 drivers. So how did the wife agree to do this ? Cos I positioned it as a car that she will actually get to drive the most. In addition, it will also become our 'work-horse' car for that quick trip to the grocery store, video store, or somewhere we really need to downsize so as not to attract too much attention. I then left the decision as to what car satisfies these conditions. See, that way, just like carnaught said, she gets to be part of the process, and may even be the enabler of the overall decision-making process. Finally, I take the low-ball route of speculating what price point that car should be, and knowing my wife that she would rather have a good quality thing than a cheapo stuff, I know the final purchase price will be much higher than whatever I speculate. That way it looks like the wife made the purchase at the higher price point than I could want. See, that way we BOTH wins !

    Oh, BTW, we do have a 3-car garage yet parks the third car outside. No biggie for us. Looked to me you need a new house with more than 2-car garage.

    Good luck.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    I don't disagree with you. Further, I don't think you're not a lawyer. (It takes one to know one.)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . ., I may look like a lawyer but I'm not. My wife is -- and I have learned some things from her. . . . or not.

    I'm going to stop by my local Cadillac dealer (who happens to own the Audi dealer!) and see if they can give me a brochure on the new STS.

    I've been loyal to Audis for so long, I do have my doubts, but the STS, if it is priced right, may have merit.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Here's a car that no one really talks about in here, 2005 Q45:

    http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/infiniti2005/q45.shtml

    I doubt this refresh would help it sell well, but those seats do look very comfy.
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    Don't know if it'll be "priced right." This baby is gonna hit $66 large (at least the MSRP will). I think Cadillac and other "underdog" luxury brands are going to price their vehicles neck and neck with BMW/MB. I think some luxury car buyers are believers of a "you get what you pay for" mentality. In some cases that may be true. So if you offer a vehicle with more room, features, etc people might wonder what makes it cheaper. Caddy started with the SRX. Some publications complained about the price even though the vehicle is larger than just about every car in its class and offers the same list of features. STS will do the same. What remains to be seen is if it'll actually work. Lutz held the project back an entire year and hopefully buyers will appreciate the fruits of that labor. Reading the press for the car really impressed me. They used a number of special or new processes when building the car. I'll be in New York this weekend to see this baby in person, should be exciting.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    naw,probably an indication of the patent offices search engines - there is a reason why identifying patents in any reliable way involves payment if you want to be halfway professional about it
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Thanks for posting those photos of the Q45. The taillights now look similar to the Toyota Avalon. And Infiniti claimed the Q's headlights were so powerful there was no need for fog lights. I guess that thinking is now gone.
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I enjoyed driving the latest Q45, but I didn't buy one because of the resale. I purchased a LS430 at the time.

    I previously leased a 1994 Q45 for two years, and really enjoyed it. It's a shame that they aren't more popular.

    Is the 2005 available for sale?

    BTW, I am going to drive a new 545i today. I will file a report.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    When I was working with our patent lawyer last year, he showed me how very straightforward the quick search and advanced search features on the USPTO are. He uses it all the time.

    In the EU you generally have to pay to get full text and images of EU patents.

    However in the U.S. you can get that right there on the USPTO at no charge.
  • sysadbsysadb Member Posts: 83
    I don't see any radical changes - the grille and tail lights are changed, with the tail lights now having the inward tail like the M and the G. The interior has some trim changes and different seats (note the power buttons on the top right of the driver seat - like the G and the FX). I like the car, but if I were redesigning the interior I would redo the center dash area surrounding the NAV screen. To me it doesn't look upscale enough. But it's still a lot of car for the money..
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .now hold on a minute. A "current" A6 4.2 fully optioned -- every possible option, that is -- lists for $58,570. The new model, even with a "market will bear" single digit % price increase is unlikely to be too far north of $60K.

    Cadillac is going to be another 10% on top of that?!?

    All things being equal, which they never are, how can Cadillac go head to head with Audi, BMW and Mercedes at "price parity?"

    Wouldn't "many" buyers -- especially in year one and two of the new STS -- think, "well if I'm gonna layout $60K for a Bimmer or a Cadillac" go with the "tried and true" German?

    I would think, realistically, that Cadillac would want to "pull a Phaeton" and come in 6 - 12% BELOW the European competition.

    And, won't some Lexus folks scoff at a first year Cadillac STS -- especially one that is "all new?"

    I went to the Cadillac website and priced the CTS-V with the sunroof option -- which means virtually every possible thing -- and it came up to $51,195. Try pricing the BMW 545i -- with stick shift -- try $58K.

    Wouldn't this "equal content" for lower bucks theory hold true until the marquis got further into its Led Zep transformation?

    I have been arguing for a year that the Phaeton is a bargain (perhaps too strong a word), but the same argument would apply to the CTS-V and I would therefore extrapolate "ditto" to the upcoming STS.

    For $66K, I can go elsewhere.

    Sorry if I have responded too agressively, but I find it difficult to imagine that the new STS V8 will creep too far north of $55K -- at least for the first iteration.

    Else, he said, perhaps the MSRP will be high, but the deals will be great -- much like the SRX deals (at least here in River City).

    Of course, Audi could throw a curve and really crank up the price of the A6 -- but, with the new A8 short wheelbase just announced at $66K, it seems Cadillac will price itself out of the market until prospective buyers (such as me) become convinced that "it isn't my Grand Father's car company any longer. . . ."

    =====

    P.S. Went to the Cadillac website, again, created an "equivalent" SRX V8 Performance Luxury config w/

    Entertainment system, rear seat, includes DVD player, LCD display, wireless headphones and remote control &

    Suspension, Magnetic Ride Control

    No third row seat -- but all other goodies: $55,635.

    Seems to me an STS, which is sort of what the SRX is should be a bit less. . . .

    Let the debate continue.

    End of P.S.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- =20040408a

    Click on the pic to get more thumbnails, each of which can be enlarged.

    Personally, not sure what I think of the styling, will need to see it in person.
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