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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    No offense BUT...I prefer to believe you do not respond to me because my simple logic leaves you unable to respond.

    Your game is to always provide a moving target rarely give straight answers, jump from price to features, from S class to c class, provide long drawn out responses to hide your non-answers to specific questions.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    Can you not see how your logic is completely flawed?

    Basically your logic is Lexus sells more cars than Mercedes because they have a cheaper overall line-up. Meaning cheaper average sales price.

    If that were true, how do you explain Mercedes sales being higher than Lexus sales 10 years ago for example? There was even a bigger price gap between the 2 makes back then and I didn't see Lexus outselling Mercedes.

    See there are many variables that effect sales figures, and Lexus/Mercedes sales/price data over time just doesn't prove out your theory at all.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Some of you need to drop the personal comments and stick to talking about the cars ...
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Me, "ignore" price at every turn? Au contraire, as a reading of my past posts should show. I pointed out that the median (as far as we know) LS sells for 13K less than the median S430. What you seem to "ignore" is the offset to the 13K that Lexus can't do much about...namely MB's higher prestige.

    Why do you think the LX has outsold the TLC by 45% in units YTD (per autosite.com)? Do you really think that the LX has $10K worth of physical improvements over the TLC, as viewed by real buyers? I think not. I think the physical differences are worth something, but not $10K or more. (As an LX owner, I think I should know something on the subject). Let's say for the sake of arguement that the average buyer sees $3K of physical improvements. It then follows that the prestige of the LX is worth MORE than $7K (otherwise the LX wouldn't outsell the TLC). Prestige is worth something, and IF priced appropriately, a higher price, higher prestige vehicle need not sell fewer units than the competition, as I have tried to communicate before. As shown by the LX/TLC example, the higher prestige, higher price vehicle can actually sell in GREATER units.

    Is MB pricing prestige appropriately? I don't know. But I do know that you can't simply explain away MB's sales performance by looking at price, without ALSO considering that prestige is HELPING MB's sales performance.
  • jamesfletcher2jamesfletcher2 Member Posts: 127
    Here is a link for an interesting article on the recently released automotive owner survey titled "Total Quality Index" by the research firm Strategic Vision where Mercedes-Benz and Infiniti tied for first place - http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-05-24-carquality_x.htm

    Unlike the more widely published survey by J.D. Powers their methodology differs significantly from the Powers survey that primarily focuses on "only the things gone wrong in the first 90 days (of ownership)". BMW, Lexus and Jaguar also finished near the top with only five points separating the top six finishers.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    That link didn't work for me, but I found the press release: http://www.vision-inc.com/svi_04_tqa_release.pdf
  • dogface5dogface5 Member Posts: 87
    MB's problem is not prestige or pricing, it is reliability. If benzes were half as reliable as lexi, they would sell twice as many. Unfortunately they are not.
  • viskhaviskha Member Posts: 35
    The July '04 issue of Car & Driver has an article on Lexus setting up an in-house performance shop like BMW's M division - the first 3 models will be next generation IS350, GS350 and LS500.

    The LS500GT will have a hybrid system with total output at 600HP!!!!! This 2006 model is expected to top $100,000! Lexus is moving into 6 digits!!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    That survey is strange, basically the entire car industry performs within a 10% range.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Mike you constantly mention things that have no logic. We're talking about price and sales and how they relate, you mention that "America has chosen with their wallets". You're right that is simple and takes no thought to reach that conclusion. Until you bring a logical point to the table why would I bother. Simplistic is right.

    "Your game is to always provide a moving target rarely give straight answers, jump from price to features, from S class to c class, provide long drawn out responses to hide your non-answers to specific questions.

    This from one who hasn't been able to answer anything in years of posting here. You mentioned that Lexus takes Mercedes' innovations and perfects them about a year ago, yet when asked what those innovations are, NO ANSWER. You mentioned that Mercedes' safety innovations have electronic problems and that they don't work. I asked for specific examples of this, yet again nothing, nada, no answer.

    A discussion about engine design, features or anything will get the same response from you, either sales numbers or reliability surveys. Tell me why would I bother to keep responding to something so irrelevant? You rarely if ever bring anything factual to the table. Others (see below) at least bring the facts along for the ride, and we have a genuine "discussion" (most of the time) as opposed to an argument that will happen if (I can't) I took most of your posts seriously.

    You make statements with no facts so please don't fool yourself by thinking that I can't respond. For the sake of the board I won't respond to your posts, most of the time.

    maxhonda99,

    "Basically your logic is Lexus sells more cars than Mercedes because they have a cheaper overall line-up. Meaning cheaper average sales price."

    Are you saying that this isn't true?!?!?? Because it most certainly is true about the average sales price of a Benz compared to a Lexus, but like I've said before that this is only one factor in sales, not the end all Max. You keep missing that part. I didn't say that price was the sole reason.

    "If that were true, how do you explain Mercedes sales being higher than Lexus sales 10 years ago for example? There was even a bigger price gap between the 2 makes back then and I didn't see Lexus outselling Mercedes."

    I think you know that in 1994 Lexus wasn't what it is today. There were 4 years old and hadn't hit their stride yet, and 1994 was way before the SUV boom, which happens to be %50 of what makes their sales press releases so hot. I think you know this because then you state: "See there are many variables that effect sales figures...." Which is what I was saying all along, with price being one of those factors that favors Lexus.

    syswei,

    "Is MB pricing prestige appropriately? I don't know. But I do know that you can't simply explain away MB's sales performance by looking at price, without ALSO considering that prestige is HELPING MB's sales performance.

    I never disagreed with the notion of prestige helping Mercedes' sales, but tell me what does prestige matter when there is a potential 13-20K price difference that some buyers can't make? I see your point about prestige, but I don't think you see where price is the end-all if you don't have the money to step to the more prestigious car.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "I don't think you see where price is the end-all if you don't have the money to step to the more prestigious car"

    Has price kept the LX470 from outselling the TLC by 45% in unit terms? Surely there are some buyers that just can't afford the 10K premium for the LX...so yes, price is the "end-all" for those buyers. But the greater prestige of the LX seems to be the "end-all" for MORE buyers, as long as prestige is priced appropriately. Hence the higher priced, higher prestige vehicle sells 45% MORE units, at least in this case.
  • tracer999tracer999 Member Posts: 5
    Information has been slim on what is going on in the Rolls-Royce and Maybach showrooms and how the lucky new owners across the land are enjoying their new luxo-barges. Is there really a decent market in the U.S. for sedans that sell for over 300 large? How do these cars satisfy their owners after the initial blush wears off?

    My sense of things is that 1) demand has been disappointing for both marques, and 2) Maybach dealers in particular are disappointed as they each made a big financial commitment to facilities to get the franchise and the current sales rate will not provide a decent return on this investment. Rolls set up about half the number of dealers as did Maybach with a much smaller investment required, so I would guess they are happier. Maybachs were all supposed to be custom-ordered. Do all of the Maybach dealers now have demonstrator/show units, or are prospects looking at pictures and video screens? Rolls has a more conventional sale strategy, with dealers putting cars into inventory and selling from stock.

    I have driven both cars and must admit they are impressive. But in the case of the Maybach, is it worth roughly three times the price of an S600? I think the problem is most qualified prospects think not.

    Now, IMHO, the Roller is a different kettle of fish. Where the Maybach stylings looks to me like the world's finest Toyota Avalon, the RR is the most impressive looking mega-luxury car since the gorgeous Rolls-Royce James Young Phantom limos were discontinued some forty years ago. And therein may lie the problem. This car just screams: "Look at me! I am stinky rich (and you are not)!" Hollywood celebrity types like this, but not your typical successful small-town factory owner. Or maybe even a New York City orthopedic surgeon.

    In any case, Automotive News sales estimates show both the RR and the Maybach delivering about 30 cars a month nationally, a bit off the goal I think.

    Any board participants have any more hard news or comments on these two ultimate high end luxury marques?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well we tried again and got very close to an agreement, but no luck.

    Those two trucks are a good example because they are virtually identical and the big L is the only major difference for some. I see that.

    What you don't see is that no matter how highly one might place the S-Class over the LS in terms of prestige, if they don't have the money to step up to the S430(slightly 13-17K more) or S500 (much more 15-25K) prestige isnt' going to make a difference.

    Overall there other other factors in sales of the S vs the LS, my point was the price favors the LS. Prestige means nothing if you don't the money to buy into it. How many base LS intenders (56-63K) can just say oh the S500 is more prestigious and pay 85K for one? Far greater price difference there than between two identical trucks from Toyota/Lexus.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Karl Blade, as in Karl Blade Chevrolet?

    Have you considered Bentley? I remember someone on this board buying one, maybe a Continental GT, but can't remember who it was or how much he liked it. I have seen one Maybach around, it was parked with the chauffer sitting in it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "But in the case of the Maybach, is it worth roughly three times the price of an S600?"

    Yep, seems crazy. People with the savvy to aquire wealth may enjoy spending but not squandering, rather, choosing other ways to enjoy/flaunt wealth and retain equity—art, real estate, jewelry. The image of wealth is one thing but the worth of these cars both emotional and financial is another.

    Not only that but the styling is dubious. The old Rolls were stately and elegant. The new ones are just Texas-big and look like rough-hewn plastic IMO. The finer subtle details are gone— heavy-handed.
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Member Posts: 27
    I think a couple of folks here are on the list for a Bentley GT, and may have already placed orders. But, I don't believe anyone has actually received one yet.

    shoes is a poster to this board but also posts on the Bentley GT board. He's traveling in Europe now and recently posted his experiences sitting in one while over there:

    #87 of 90 I spent time in one by shoes May 30, 2004 (1:36 am)
    I am traveling in Europe now, in fact, I picked up an AMG car at the factory and am driving very quickly through Europe. However, while in Stuttgart, I saw a dealer with a Bentley Continental and he was nice enough to let me sit in it a while. He said he had driven it at 330 KPH on the autobahn, which I thought must be an exaggeration. Anyway, the interior of the Bentley was extremely nice- much higher levels of luxury than the Phaeton (whew) although the gauges were familiar. Even the headliner was leather. However, it feels very tight, even headroom (maybe it was the black leather headliner that exacerbated that impression) and there is shockingly little room in the back. I will be driving this car in the US in two weeks and will post after that.

    #89 of 90 Sexy Car by shoes Jun 01, 2004 (10:59 am)
    I am posting this from Geneva, Swisserland. I spied a Bentley Continental on the street here and asked my wife to take my picture with it. She asked me to get out of the way so she could just photograph the car. I guess I know where I stand.
    The interior still looks pretty tight- maybe those basketball guys are used to tight quarters. I think the black headliner in the car I sat in may have made it seemed worse than it is, but I am only 5 feet 5 inches and find everything roomy.

    It's pretty quite on that board, so I suspect those of us who are interested are just waiting.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc.

    I will leave your ramblings for others to judge...I have been posting on this board for less then a year.

    The Japanese take almost EVERY innovation and work with it and make it better. It is why their machines specifically cars are so much better/dependable then the industry as a whole.

    Finally...the answer to your question is "Yes" it is not true that Lexus sells more Luxury cars then the Germans because they are cheaper. They sell more Luxury cars because they are BETTER.
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Member Posts: 27
    I think a couple of folks here are on the list for a Bentley GT, and may have already placed orders. But, I don't believe anyone has actually received one yet.

    shoes is a poster to this board but also posts on the Bentley GT board. He's traveling in Europe now and recently posted his experiences sitting in one while over there:

    #87 of 90 I spent time in one by shoes May 30, 2004 (1:36 am)
    I am traveling in Europe now, in fact, I picked up an AMG car at the factory and am driving very quickly through Europe. However, while in Stuttgart, I saw a dealer with a Bentley Continental and he was nice enough to let me sit in it a while. He said he had driven it at 330 KPH on the autobahn, which I thought must be an exaggeration. Anyway, the interior of the Bentley was extremely nice- much higher levels of luxury than the Phaeton (whew) although the gauges were familiar. Even the headliner was leather. However, it feels very tight, even headroom (maybe it was the black leather headliner that exacerbated that impression) and there is shockingly little room in the back. I will be driving this car in the US in two weeks and will post after that.

    #89 of 90 Sexy Car by shoes Jun 01, 2004 (10:59 am)
    I am posting this from Geneva, Swisserland. I spied a Bentley Continental on the street here and asked my wife to take my picture with it. She asked me to get out of the way so she could just photograph the car. I guess I know where I stand.
    The interior still looks pretty tight- maybe those basketball guys are used to tight quarters. I think the black headliner in the car I sat in may have made it seemed worse than it is, but I am only 5 feet 5 inches and find everything roomy.

    It's pretty quite on that board, so I suspect those of us who are interested are just waiting.
  • tracer999tracer999 Member Posts: 5
    Chevrolet? Yes, and BMW too. But that's an echo from an increasingly distant past. It has been over 20 years since I turned the dealership over to other members of the family (who still operate it) and moved on to the custom motor coach manufacturing business. Yes, I saw a Bentley Continental GT at Desert European Motors in Rancho Mirage in February. Didn't do much for me and I don't know why. But the Aston Martin Vanquish V12--that's a car to aspire to.
  • prattsterprattster Member Posts: 59
    From Top Gear, June 2004 issue

    "Our new design was wrong." - BMW Boss's Shock Admission

    You knew it, we knew it, anyone with any taste new it - BMW's 7-series is horrible. Now it seems BMW knows it too.

    BMW has finally admitted what everyone in the car world has long known: the current 7-series is a disaster. In an interview with American business magazine Fortune, Helmut Panke, BMW's chairman, said: "I admit the intensity of the public debate over our new design (which began with the 7-series) did suprise me. There are still too many articles focusing on 'I wish this car looked different blah, blah, blah.' The 7-series was a combination of completely new technology with new design direction. The key point is that we should never make big steps in strategic directions without preparing our customers."

    Panke is the first BMW executive to publicly acknowlege what many Munich insiders have privately been saying about the 7-series - that BMW made a big mistake in launching Chris Bangle's new design direction and the complex i-Drive system at the same time in the most conservative sector of the market with no explanation.

    Panke's comments have been greeted with relief in Munich. "It's a weight off everyone's shoulders," one insider said. "Panke has finally said what we all knew but could not say - that we tried to do too much, too soon with the 7-series and we did it in the wrong market. We were too far ahead of the audience and lost a lot of goodwill. It was a real own goal that has overshadowed the launch of the very good cars that have followed the 7-Series."

    This only further supports that the "Battle of the Best" will be between the future '06 LS and S class models. This new 7 goose is cooked and we have live with this design for years. A premature all new skin redesign is a signal of failure and BMW will never do this. Given the dismal reliability reports and below average resale the 7 series historically had it's gonna be a long hard slog as Rumey would say..
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    You must ask yourself how ego was allowed to override typical German reasoning. Guess the mgt team slipped over to the Dark Side in full without thinking about the law of unintended consequences.

    Most people who can afford the new 7 are a bit older and quite successful, yet putting it in gear, adjusting your seats and figuring out how to cool the cabin is beyond most of them. My Mother wouldn't know how to start one up and back it out of her driveway... and she is a BMW driver!

    iDrive should have been pioneered in a low-volume car to guage feedback (maybe the Alpina/Z8 or even the 645), not in your premium sedan. Then there is the rear 3/4 design... another matter altogether. I will say that the 7 has presence on the road, but it doesn't have the combination of timeless elegance and market leading performance BMW should own as part of their branded image. Question is... now what?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Actually, the 7-series is getting a pretty big reskin for 2005. The proportions will be the same, the greenhouse will be the same, but the rear humpback look, the front eyebrows will be toned down. Basically it will be more conservative. And supposedly it will be getting alot more BHP.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    I still think you are wrapped around the wrong axle. You said ...

    "Overall there other other factors in sales of the S vs the LS, my point was the price favors the LS. Prestige means nothing if you don't the money to buy into it. How many base LS intenders (56-63K) can just say oh the S500 is more prestigious and pay 85K for one? Far greater price difference there than between two identical trucks from Toyota/Lexus."

    Price favors the LS as does it being a better, more reliable vehicle.

    You keep asking the question "How many base LS intenders (56-63K) can just say oh the S500 is more prestigious and pay 85K for one?"

    Well, answer it, Merc. How many?

    By asking the question the way you do, you imply that there is some significant number of 'base LS intenders' who think the S500 is more prestigious but can't afford it. I say your question is retorical and designed to misinform.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Just like before, you say:

    "The Japanese take almost EVERY innovation and work with it and make it better. It is why their machines specifically cars are so much better/dependable then the industry as a whole."

    And I'm asking what have they taken and made better. Specifically what Mercedes-Benz innovation has Lexus taken and made "better". Still no answer. Why? Because you don't have one. The rest of your post only proves what I said in my earlier post, irrelevent to the discussion.

    footie,

    Only in your world does price not matter. You're lost if you think 56 to 83K doesn't make a difference to anyone. I say everything you post is designed to misinform and confuse because you simply have no knowledge of anything past JDP and CR reports. BTW, I didn't bring up prestige, someone else did. Tell them that. But you're right price means everything to someone buying a 49K car. Makes sense.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It seems these days that Lexus and Acura and Infiniti are doing all the innovating, and the Germans are trying to catch up. Lexus had DVD navigation back in 98. Germany stuck with CDs, and Audi didnt even get actual screens, for years and years. The Toureg STILL uses CDs. Lexus and Acura were first with voice command, blue tooth connectivity, and swiveling headlights. Infiniti came up with the first rear mounted camera, and recently pioneered their lane departure warning sytem. What has M-B done lately, other than make COMAND less of a pain in the [non-permissible content removed]? And dont say electro-hydralic brakes, Im talking about useful features.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well the days of sheer mechanical innovation are probably over and this will favor the Japanese as the switch is to ever increasingly sophisticated electronics. The recent features you listed are proof of this.

    For me personally I find nav systems and rear view camera (in a car) to be useless. There is no way I'd pay 2K extra on a Acura for one. A rear view camera must have taken all of 10 mins to go from the drawing board to production considering it uses all existing technology.

    Mercedes introduced Pre-Safe the only such system of its kind until this year. Lexus got it for 2004. Brake assist is also another recent Mercedes first, which Lexus later got.

    SBC is useful reguardless of what you think of it. The braking distances for the E320 and SL500 have proven this in comparos.

    Mercedes' ABC suspension works wonders in the upper S-Class, CL and SL models. Not the first, but they are the only one to do it successfully. Infiniti surely couldn't and that French car isn't sold here, and they gave up on the idea also.

    Keyless go is another MB first (2000) that Lexus just got for 2004.

    All the big mechanical innovations, car layout, and safety innovations were taken care of Mercedes-Benz, Cadillac, Volvo, Saab and others over the years so the focus now is on electronic innovation, which the Japanese will lead in. No doubt.

    What I've been dying to hear about (not from you) is how the most basic things were made so much greater by Toyota. What improvments did Toyota make to ABS, airbags, traction control, stability systems etc. etc. that were so great to the point that original concept was rendered obsolete. Every automaker under the sun has done little things with each of these to advance the technology, so I'm very interested in hearing what Toyota has done differently from everyone else. The basic principles, layout and functions still remain the same.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    lexusguy,

    The original NAV systems that debuted here in 98 on the GS and LS were hard-drive based navigation systems. Nonetheless, NAV systems have been in use in Japan for years before they came here. I believe Toyota had NAVs in their cars in the early 90s.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    M-B might've been first with brake assist, but the GS consistently beats the E500 in the 60 to zero test. With regular plain ole brakes, the GS only needs 115 feet, where as the E needs 125.
  • twinsdad99twinsdad99 Member Posts: 9
    the reality is we are in a period of transition-the prestige base from which mercedes has relied on for so many years (from innovation and even reliability) is being eroded by the ASCENDANCY of the Japanese (Toyota) manufacturing supremacy (ie build quality,cost efficiency) coupled with pricing efficiency due to its large volume production (economy of scale).to top it all, merc and the rest of the german marquee names are in an innovation race (ie increased volatility of product quality,esp in early volumes due to vendor quality control/design flaws/etc.) which further erodes their base.
    i drive an 04LS, one of these days when the quality of the E or the S moves up to its price, then i expect to buy one.not just now.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Isn't this what led to the recall of 140k E and S class cars? OK, everyone has recalls, but it sounds like MB is backing away from the whole concept and won't be putting it in any future designs:

    WSJ May 26: "Mercedes officials themselves aren't so bullish about the system's future. Although the company plans to keep it in the models that currently feature it -- including the E-Class, the SL-Class, Maybach and SLR McLaren -- Mr. Reifenrath, the company spokesman, says the system is "very costly" and that conventional braking technology has improved to the point that "we can look at other systems.""
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Great, now BMW just needs to start having second thoughts about "active steering."
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    Pick any electrical system OR Pick enviormental systems...JUST FOR STARTERS.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Lexusguy, BMW needs to have second thoughts about everything. I like this "error-free" mantra that MB is trumpeting. It's seems like they have a clue. I'm not so sure that BMW has really gotten the message yet. Arrogant comments from Panke like "We were too far ahead of the audience..." don't sit well with me. We all play computers like pianos and they still think iDrive is advanced technology?

    They'll get the total message though—the worst is yet to come with their sales. I think the majority of people still aren't aware of their mess. Just wait for BMW bashing to take full root in the press, when the negative bandwagon pops up in every small-town gazette. This story has yet to reach the 4th inning.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    mERC:

    I will agree with you that when an LS and S class are compared and the LS is found to be of equal or better quality...and is less expensive, the price difference is a huge factor.

    If however the Mercedes were of better quality or even equal quality it's Prestige factor would offset the price difference.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Man, you sure are down on BMW !

    Was returning from lunch and the car n front of me had a bumper sticker which read: "Ugly is in". I immediately thought of BMW. How sad ! Despite this though, I still hope to someday buy either a coupe version of either the IS4xx or the 330ci. Timeline ? When the kids leave the stable and head off to College, in a matter of like 8 years from now... Got a couple of friends who owns the 330 and they love it, and I do like it too. I must say that the picture of the front end of the 2005 3-series is a likeable, clean-looking, but somewhat demur compared to its feline kins in the 5- or 7-, whereas the rump sucks big time, imo.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    I asked you a question and you always play dodge ball ... twisty words. I think you must really work for Fox TV.

    TO HOW MANY BUYERS DOES PRICE MATTER OVER 50K? You know as in % or numbers or my gosh actual data on income and why $300 / month makes a big diff to someone leasing a car that already is costing them$1100 / month? Duh?

    Where's your facts, man? Are you just tooting?
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Merc,
      I think you've made a valid point about price...I read some years back (Like 1997) that an avg LS owner was in their mid fifties and earned $125K a year...Now, a 30K price difference between a 57K LS and a 80K S500 is probably going to be significant. I'm unsure of the MB demographics, but I wouldn't be surprised if the avg income of a S class owner was higher than a Lexus owner.

    Footie you're right in saying some luxury car buyer are wealthy enough to buy either car. But it's fair to say the average LS owner may find a S500 out of their reach. It was certainly the case for some LS owners that I personally know. I think a LS/S430 is probably a better comparison. I don't think Mercedes would have offered the S430 if they didn't think there was a market for it.

    The question is how much $$$ do we put on prestige? It varies according to the person. I for one, couldn't care less. It's all about the car: Styling, Reliability, and Ride..Of course, we all know others who've bought the car simply for the name..It's all perspective here.

    SV
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    I just went to the Herb Chambers web site in Boston and the site showed me an $1150 monthly payment on a n S430 and a $1062 monthly payment on a LS 430. Can't you just see the dentist and his wife making the tortured decision to move up to S430 and having drop down to a three star hotel in Nice for two weeks instead of a 4 star. "but honey, it's a thousand dollars a year!"

    Plus, there's no money on prestige for an MB in my book. They are just a marketing scam now. Buy one and you get a free chrome dunce cap in the mail after delivery. You paid more, got less, doesn't work as good, requires more service ... Like a GE refrigerator instead of Samsung.

    Their marketing people must have to pinch themselves in the morning. "People still by this product for more than something else that is better?"

    They must have gotten their "Like no other" from the same cookbook as "mission accomplished".
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Here's the problem which you so clearly illustrate in your posts. You have made this bogus claim over and over that Lexus has taken Mercedes' innovations and improved upon them. When I ask you to tell me what they are you come back with this bs: "Pick any electrical system OR Pick enviormental systems...JUST FOR STARTERS"

    This basically means that you have nothing otherwise you'd be eager to point out the things that support your most bogus of claims.

    I'm not the one has to prove anything, you're the one that made the claim and you've yet (in over a year) to back it up with anything. Period.

    Again since you've made the claim please tell me what these Mercedes-created, Toyota-perfected "innovations" are.

    Lexusguy,

    I didn't know the E500 and GS430 had been compared.

    footie,

    As usual.... Price doesn't matter footie. You're right. Nearly everyeone else seems to see that it does except you. Right everyone leases these cars! Got it. Nobody finances or pays cash for these cars, never. Nobody on the S, LS, A8, XJ or 7-Series boards ever discuss price because it makes no difference. You're lost if you truly believe this. Do you even read the posts on these boards before you post?

    You're right a 50K+ car makes no difference, but one that costs 49K or less price makes a world of difference. Duh.

    M
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Gosh, Merc

    What part of provide some facts don't you get?

    Your turn to actually ANSWER a question instead of play riochet.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What part of anything didn't you get? I initially said that not every LS buyer can afford a LS, I didn't claim to know how many could or couldn't.

    What part of not everyone leases didn't you understand?

    There are buyers/owners on these boards that pay cash and/or finance and you're going to say that price doesn't make a difference in those cases. You're only fooling yourself if you think that. Common sense should tell you this, but I guess not.

    M
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    The question in #5291 was very simple:

    How many LS buyers find the price of the S class 'too high'.

    Where's that beef Mr. Murky.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yet another pointless exchange, whats the point, is there ever a point? Keep thinking that price has nothing do with luxury car buyer's decisions.

    Everyone leases so a few hundred a month this way or that way won't make a difference.

    Every single LS buyer looked at the S-Class and found the price "too high" so they bought the LS.

    We know factually that every single LS430 buyer can afford a S500. Even though some LS owners who know other LS owners say it isn't so.

    All of this makes so much sense now!

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Problem with the pros- and cons- to this argument are the unknown variables that play major role - earning power of LS vs S-class buyer, what $ value is associated to the *prestige factor*, the proportion of owners who lease vs purchase, etc. Unless there are definitive knowledge to these factors, then I submit the argument on price-matters is for naught.

    Every single LS buyer looked at the S-Class and found the price "too high" so they bought the LS

    Factually incorrect, Merc1 !!! Way too general, so I will assume you will back off this statement.

    As a lux car buyer/owner, my personal viewpoint is that a $20-30K price difference b/w the S500 and the LS is not justified, based on the feature contents of both cars. I honestly do not see the justification for why an S500 should cost $90K while a fully-loaded LS430 UL should cost about $20K less ! What specific features makes the S that much higher-priced over the LS? To me NONE. Hence, the price difference can only be associated to what MB and the MB buyer will associate to a prestige-factor whatever that is !

    Oh, btw, I never even considered the S in my lux car purchase choice(s).
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Thanks, oac, you said what we've been trying to get Murky to admit:

    1) No facts or data re earning power of folks shopping for cars over 50K - so the price argument is constantly recycled hot air

    2) Most likely reason that LS outsells S 2 to 1 is that the S is a lousy value

    I think the price difference that exists between MB and Lexus is there because the difference in Toyota and DCX/MB P&L statements suggest that

    * it costs MB more to make the S because their manufacturing processes aren't as efficient as Toyota.
    * their service costs are higher because of higher defect repairs they have to eat during warranty
    * they spend more on advertising than Lexus because the 'prestige' thing is a marketing scam
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well I for one, am an LS owner, and I dont have a hundred grand to shell out on a loaded S500. $25,000 does make a difference to people like myself.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    People making statements about their own buying considerations on this board do represent a very valid source of data.

    I know when I spend 70-something on my XJR, the key consideration was to get the right car for me. But I also know would have not spend more than 79.9k - it was a mental block, even though it's not like it would have broken me at all. If you *can* spend 70k cash, in the majority of cases it means that you have a multiplier in that in cash, and that you *could* spend more but chose not to. And a very valid reason for that is that there are very compelling choices that right there -like the Lexus-, and you think hard about the true value-add of spending more - not because you can't spend more, but rather because you do try to make a buying decision that is not based on 100% emotion and impulse and leaves you feeling potentially disappointed afterwards. But it may be a perfectly valid reason to spend more to come to the conclusion that you truly wanted the star on the hood very bad.

    But it does vary from person to person, and I am not sure even car vendors have reliable data on that. For all the silly questionnaires I have received after buying new cars, none of them included questions like "how much liquid cash reserves do you have?" and even "what is you total net worth?" - which private banking institutions do the whole time, without asking you what car you have. perhaps there's a business to be made combining such data... :-)

    I do think that $10-15k do matter when you're spending 70k. It may however be very much of a rational block, of a target the buyer puts in his/her head saying "I am not spending more than that" - I truly think that once you cross that price barrier, spending more is something most people can wing, but they simply freely chose to not inflict themselves a bigger whole in the wallet.

    And it's been also repeatedly and correctly stated that for those leasing the difference truly is rather modest - but again, there may be an emotional inner barrier there.

    And the inner barrier may have been built by the availability of a truly great product at a leading price: the Lexus. I am not saying it is the better car, that is for everybody to decide for themselves, but unquestionable the Lexus is a great car on its very own merits irrespective of price, and happens to be a price-leader (but it ain't no bargain, let's make that clear) - that is a powerful proposition in any market, because it means buyers take note and use it as a reference point for what they should expect in many respects.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I would assume you probably *could*, but that it'd be more painful than you'd care for. If we were like young kids our whole life, where we're willing to scratch up every cent we own for a car or motorcycle, I'd assume quite a few of the people posting to this board could potentially wing whatever they set their minds to - but afterwards they'd kick themselves for the utterly wasteful idiocy. But I do remember instances when I wiped out everything that was at my disposal to score what I thought was the deal of the century that would get me the motoring experience of a lifetime... just to feel like I had to do the same all over again a year later. Thank heavens my buying behaviors have matured somewhat... :-)
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Merc:

    I looked at the Mercedes S class before buying my Lexus...I found the quality too LOW and bought the better car for LESS money.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I do agree with a lot of what you posted. There can be a mental block buying something at close to $100K price point, regardless of what it is. Anecdotally, my wife and I are in the process of buying a third home. The price tag is $429K and since it is an investment property, the bank wants us to put down 25%. That is $107K out of our pocket. Adding closing costs and other costs, we'll put down close to $115K. The house is currently in escrow and should close later this month. Now I say this just to make the point that buying a $100K S500 should not have been a problem for me, but I'd rather put that amount of money on a house which will appreciate rather than to make a point of a social status that may be associated with owning a marque MB superstar car. Having said this, I am in the market for a $75K LS4xx by 2006 ! Would I consider an S-class in my purchase choice ? NOPE ! And it ain't because of its price either.
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