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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    Yes perhaps the artistic rendition is wrong but all the reports are the interior photos are accurate and they will build a Nokia designed iDrive like system. I think the shot of the covered car is probably right on. It will have a smaller Maybach "look" to it
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I think the Mayback is a lot prittier inside and out.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    These are some fugly pics..... If these pictures TRULY represent the best of what MB has to offer in competition against the likes of the 2006 LS, then I must say, MB is definitely on the WRONG course. I'll remain skeptical for now since these are spy pics and *may not* turn out to be the final versions.

    Compare the S-class spy pics here:

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7250&sid=17- 8&n=158

    versus Lexus' LFS concepts here:

    http://www.carenthusiast.com/tokyo2003.html?article=169
    http://www.lexus.com/about/concept/lf-s_gallery_exterior_photos.h- tml

    And you see the difference !!!
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The sign in the back on the car connection photo - which looks like an A&P but probably isn't - has a name just to its left and the last 4 letters match the name of the designer who's mission seems to be the destruction of BMW. Very interesting co-incidence. If that is the next S-class than that is one dis-appointing interior. I normally wouldn't take the autospies pix all that seriously but they match reasonably well to the actual photograph.

    OAC - I was out to a big local charity event this weekend and talked cars with a bunch of people. There were a few people in the crowd who are senior managers or GM's of local car dealerships including Caddy, Ford and Acura. I was really surprised at the tone about MB. They have fallen a lot further than I realized within the car dealer trade. No one wants used MB's and there is a lot more desperation at Benz than I think most of us realize based on the people I talked to. The consensus from my discussions was that Lexus is now viewed as the car to beat and the car that runs forever and the envy of the industry. I'm not talking enthusiasts here - I'm talking build quality, reliability, resale value and the integrity the brand now has to people. When they add in some more spice in the next few years they will take the torch from MB here in the US in the media's eyes as well. BMW is the most exciting car, still built wth excellent quality and great engines but overly engineered electronically (and its hurting them) and MB is living off a name and a quality past. The people I talked to said the 7-series is a bust (and its sales are heavily subsidized) but the 5-series is pretty much accepted - its just not a run away success. Audi has yet to recover from the old acceleration problems and may never do so and VW is hopelessly lost. Caddy intends to model itself on BMW excitement and Lexus excellence. Good luck with that one but nevertheless there is a lot of excitement at Caddilac these days. Lastly Acura is in the position to do what Caddilac wishes to do but they'll never get there without a big engine. The Acura guy was besides himself that they still lack a V8 and dealerships across the US have petitioned Honda to do something about this. Lastly they are all upset about the NSX as well despite its low sales volume as it could have and should have been a halo car matched with a true V8 flagship sedan to compete with Lexus, Infiniti and the Germans. They need the V8 to portray themselves as heavyweights.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I guess all this gloom and doom is expected on this board, even before the S-Class is officially shown. The car has a terrible interior and exterior, though it is all mucked up for development work. Yep I too can see what the final car will look like through that mess.

    lexusguy,

    Yep, you may have seen too many, but then again the S600 (except for the wheels) looks just like the S430.

    ljflx,

    Yikes a bunch of dealership people from Acura and Ford say that MB is finished, they of course know what they're talking about wouldn't be biased at all. Acura especially. Mercedes is finished in their eyes yet Acura still doesn't measure up past one car. Makes sense to me.

    The group you spoke with should be disqualified immediately from talking about cars if they're still thinking about Audi's unfounded unintended acceleration episode back in what..the 1980s. Dude they're clueless. Audi was found to be not at fault! You're saying this groups sees Lexus as the standard in quality and reliability. Gasp! Nobody disputed that and its been harped on every spring for the last 10 years when the surveys are released. You're right this group aren't enthusiasts, but I'm glad you recognize this. They think Mercedes is living off their past yet their stuck in the past when thinking about Audi. The 7-Series has excellent quality? Yet this is the car that this crowd's bible (Consumer Reports) said was more troublesome than a 1996 LS400 is today in 2004! What a knowledgeable bunch.

    M
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Those pics are terrible. Look at these, and they usually get them right:

    http://www.autobild.de/projektor/projektor.php?artikel_id=5334&am- p;pos=1

    The new S class looks very good to me, easily the best looking car in its class (again).

    ...pablo
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It certainly is a good time to be the "lexusguy". Personally I couldnt be happier to see Lexus finally shrug off the "lets make it look like a '9x S420" approach and let their OWN designers show what they can really do. LF-S and LF-C, gorgeous. The LF-X is nice, but it seems like there are A LOT of FX45 cues in it.
  • scott1scott1 Member Posts: 50
    I think I've narrowed my choices down to these two. Both would sticker at about 58,000 or so as I would want them configured.

      I like the exterior of the Mercedes better then the Lexus, but the lexus has the edge in interior design . The Mercedes has awd, which will come in handy in the wisconsin winters. I've test driven them both, and found both to be very capable and comfortable...although the Lexus gets my nod for quietness and ride quality.

      I keep going back and forth between these two..I could see myself owning either one, for different reasons. The big weight on the Lexus side of the scale is reliability and durabilty.

      Anyone else have any thoughts comparing these two?
  • aggie76aggie76 Member Posts: 266
    I did this comparison and for the room and reliability decided to go with the LS430 just a month ago. I still like the styling on the E but couldn't get over the reliability concerns and living over an hour from the closest Mercedes dealer I did not want to get to know the service folks and spend time over there. Having experienced Lexus service and quality with my '98 GS I just could not find a reason to switch from it.

    I have not been disappointed at all with my LS. Just did a short road trip to Madison and it was wonderful. I will put winter tires on mine this fall, like I have with my other RWD cars, and don't expect any concerns with mobility this winter.
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    The front would be nice if that is a true rendition but it is an artist's wish. The actual spy photos show an awful interior and an exterior rear and profile that mimicks the Maybach. MB's stylists are making generic looking cars lately. ie, the 2006 ML looks like a Acura MDX, the CLK is a Honda Accord Coupe. The only good looking MB is an E-Class model and the AMG version of the CL. Otherwise all style is gone from Mercedes.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What's your opinion of the SL?

    merc1 - If you read again you'll see that I posted they thought the 7-series was a bust but that BMW's - in general- were still well made cars. I didn't say that MB was dead or headed for disaster. Falling from the number 1 spot doesn't mean you are going out of business. I was just surprised that the "Trade" opinion of MB is a lot worse than I thought it would be and pretty much in-line with Consumer Reports indexes.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I found this link posted by usbseawolf2000 on another Edmunds board. Though it is about a comparison of the Prius and Jetta diesel, it is interesting reading and a taste of what's to come at the high end:
    http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/business/10877346- 48278220.xml?banew
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Beauty is mostly gone from car design, period. And big conservative sedans have seldom been the car designs to set the imagination flying anyhow. We'll have to wait and see how the new S really looks, until then we're both only speculating, but I certainly do not expect the new S to be the worst looking car in its class, nor do I think Lexus will go as stylish as people here wish for with their most critcal models: they'll probably go for innovative designs with niche models, but the LS will stay a good ole brick design.

    I am not a big fan of several of Mercsa new designs: the Maybach is a disaster, a vulgar car design. The new SLK looks slightly Pontiac Aztec-ish. The rest of the line-up, howver, while not imaginative is not a bad looking set of cars, arguably in average Mercedes might stil have the better designs out there now that Jaguar has fattened the XJ and Audi has felt compelled to put that horrible new grill into their cars.

    As for Lexus, I would not get too excited because they get two showcars out. The SC430 has not aged well at all, it looks very 3 years ago. They will not dare to make the same mistake with their most important cars.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I dont like the E. (And Im not just saying this as an LS owner). Those pointless brakes are a definite sore point with me, its been proven that they do NOT outperform standard mechanical brakes, and something like my car's ability to stop is not something Im going to trust to german electronics. Plus, $58K for a 215hp V6? Are you kidding me? M-Bs prices are out of control. If you feel you need AWD, wait for the new RL, M35 AWD, and GS300 AWD. All three will outperform and outfeature the E, and undercut it by at least $10 grand.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
     I'm not impressed with the new S class. It looks as generic as ever. I'm quite disappointed considering how good the CL and SL look. I think the current gen S Class is much better than the new design. But I'll withold judgement until I see what the new LS430 looks like. If it looks like the current gen S Class, I'll never buy another Lexus again reliabilty be damned.

     I really don't think anyone is building a nice looking Lux car these days. What do you all think?

    SV
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “Beauty is mostly gone from car design, period.”

    Yes sir. However, the sports car is the last bastion of hope, for no other reason than they have to be made lean, unlike every other class which can be Rubenesque. 350Z, Boxster, 911, S2000, Vette, NSX, T-Bird, MR2, Miata… these are all beautiful or at least decent looking cars. Of course BMW and MB are doing their best to screw that up too.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    …big Sedans down 3-0, three men on, Lexus LS up at the plate. You Lexus apostles better be right about the next one. If it’s a dog I’ll never talk to you again. ;-)
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I am currently considering both of these cars.
    After extensive test drives in each I have come to the following conclusions:

    Ride- MB gets nod- it is the best riding car I've ever been in. Lexus is super smooth but not quite as tight as I'm used to.

    Seats- I give edge to MB. The European seats which are a bit more firm are more to my taste.

    Handling- MB

    Value- Lexus- many more goodies included for less $

    Styling- I prefer the classic Benz.

    Reliability- I am sure Lexus will win out.

    But a key component may be the option to get all wheel drive on the Benz. I live in the NE and it would be very helpful here.

    The price difference is about 10K as MB is aggressively moving out S Class with a 3K factory kicker to the dealer. I don't particularly care which company wins or loses in the volume game so I don't get caught up in some of the posts I see here where it reminds me of debating which baseball team is better. I only care about which is good for me and which car I will be happy with because either way it's a lot of $.

    I know that MB has taken a hit in the quality rankings but I also know many people who love their MB's. I can handle a few extra trips to the service department but I did own an ML that stranded me once. That was unacceptable.

    Any objective data would be helpful.
  • stevesteinstevestein Member Posts: 263
    you can get from this site by comparing specifications. These boards give subjective data such as "I prefer the classic styling" or "more firm (seats) are more to my taste".
    The LS vs S discussion tends to dominate this board, with passionate membership on both sides. Two great cars, built to favor different aspects. The "better" car is the one that fits you best. It seems from your prior post that you would be happier with a MB. I had to make the same choice, and although I had two MB's previously I took the LS. Unless something drastic happens I can't see ever going back, but that's because Lexus' target is a bullseye to my personal preferences. Others wouldn't be caught dead in what they see as a boring design that isolates the driver from the road.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Sounds like the S 4-matic is for you. Since you really like it better you could be having too many second thoughts if you go with the LS. I always say you don't want to buy a car only to keep ogling the one you didn't get. And if service headaches wear you out, well, you're not stuck with it forever. Also, AWD is an enormous plus, especially if you depend on the car in the winter. Finally, don't forget, the Lexus service experience is considered by far the best.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    To me, MB was always the top of the top (being close to 50 years old). I did own the first GS300 and while it was incredibly smooth and reliable, I became bored with it quickly. I am currently driving a BMW 330i which is a blast and has been problem free and a great machine. Now that I am interested in getting back into the luxury category I am having fun testing many cars.
    The BMW 7 series just didn't do it for me. It's neither fish nor fowl. Not luxurious and not sporty. The Jag XJ is very nice but I'm not sure if it's in the same league. I may take for an extended drive. The A8L was very impressive but the back is so long that it really is a limo. Also, first year model from Audi scares me off a bit. No doubt that LS430 is best bang for buck and a no hassle experience, yet it didn't wow me yet.

    Just trying to justify 70K for the MB vs 60 for LS and have a little nagging thought about reliability of the Benz based on Consumers Reports.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I don't like that new S-class interior one bit but the exterior pix that Pablo linked is a good looking evolutionary car to me. Supposedly the car is being lengthened but in all these pix it looks the same size or shorter. The car connection and autospies views do indeed make it look like some combo of the current car, a bloated Accord and a 7-series and it loses its beauty in those views. But somehow I doubt that MB would tweak the current car so radically given its looks are so well accepted today.

    OAC - In person the HPX looks nothing like the Infiniti. It's truly an AWD minivan or tall station wagon and not SUV-like at all. Its a softer and more beautiful vehichle than the F45 but nevertheless I like the F45 as well. In pix it does have some feature resemblance to the latter but that disappears quickly when you see it in person. They are clearly two different vehichle types and the F45 has that bulge on the side that the HPX lacks. Someone once described it like stepping on a bug and having the sides bulge out.

    designman - looks like the new LS and new S are both 2006 cars with the S having a 6-8 month lead time. I find it interesting that the S will have engines ranging from a 6cyl (probably not here) to a 600HP V8 plus a V12. Obviously they are paying close attenion to Lexus announcements these days.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    MB losing their marbles ? Geez... Who would have thunk dat ??? :)

    My trip to Japan was disappointing in terms of learning more about the Lexus plans sans 2005. Seemed like many people are resigned to having re-badged Toyotas as Lexi in Japan in 2005. At least to the ones I talked to, they seemed ambivalent about buying rebadged Toyota's as Lexi when Lexus becomes an official brand. They also say that Lexus will be a huge success in Japan when it becomes official. For sure, the only car anyone can certify will be new design in 2005 is the 2006 GS. Else, some feel that the LS, IS and RX will be carry-over Toyota models as they are in 2004. I do not believe this tho', so I have requested for more detective work and a friend has promised to dig more and get the stuff to me shortly, so I am waiting !

    A 600HP MB ? Not anything new these days ? Its all about HP with MB. New design looks like destined to the dogs, electronics that we know won't work as advertised, and a brand over-promising and under-delivering will finally get what its due sooner rather than later. Its only a matter of time now !!!

    The LF-X is not even remotely close to the FX, I agree with you completely. If Lexus ever makes that car, they'll sell every one made, I'd wager.

    Designman: Yeah, the stakes for Lexus to deliver the LF-S and LF-C are high indeed ! Everyone is waiting and watching. If they ever do, the US lux car playing field as we currently know it would be forever changed AGAIN

    lexusguy: Yeah, great moniker. Fits quite well these days. I'd rather be a lexusguy than an MB, BMW, Audi or VW-guy !!! These manufacturers seemed to not have a clue where they are heading... Just MHO, of course....
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If you think the S430 handles better, try an LS430 with the euro sport suspension and 18" wheels. If you dont dont like it, then theres probably nothing I can say to make you change your mind. The 2004 S does get their new 7-cog auto, which is nice as I found the previous five speed to be a bit on the sluggish side. If it were me though, I just couldnt see dishing out all that cash on a car that is the oldest, most dated car in the segment. Plus I think the styling is tired, and I've never liked M-Bs HVAC and clumsy nav controls. There's no Mark Levinson system either.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The euro LS easily outhandles an S430. But they aren't easy to find - at least not here in the northeast.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Just saw the new VW Phaeton article in the main page. Has anyone seen a live one driving around yet? Does anyone know someone who owns one, or is even considering one? The Initial fizzle and curiosity factor sure died of quick!
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    The 4 Matic versions only get the 5 speeds. The Lexus dealers all but laughed at me when I asked them to call me when/if they get a Euro sport model. Sounds like no chance.

    I agree on the ML stereo as the best. The Bose on the MB was excellent though. As far as the styling, I think the S Class is classic and will stay that way for a long time. There are trade offs here on both models. One has all wheel drive, the other offers back up camera and blue tooth. The MB has standard air suspension, auto door closers and pre safe, the Lexus has those as options on the Ultra only.

    And most importantly in my book is the ride. I am going to test the LS again on a longer ride to see if I'd be happy. It would be great if I preferred it since it's less $ and probably more reliable.

    The segment does have some interesting choices. The A8 was very sporty but as I mentioned, I feel a bit silly driving it alone without a paying customer in the rear. Audi told me that they are getting the short wheel base in soon. I didn't think it was being imported to the U.S. but I guess now it is.

    The new A6 due this fall could be interesting with the large 8 from the S4. It sounds like it will be a mini A8 and with all bells and whistles will probably be in the low 50K range. It could be a car and I like the new bold grill.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    What in the world is all this talk about the S-Class about? The car hasn't even been shown officially and already the Lexus folks don't like this and don't like that. What a concept, Lexus fans criticizing styling of other brands. Supporters of the brand with the blandest bunch of nothing-looking cars in the world talking about how ugly a car is in spy photographs and drawings. This is obvious wishing that the next S doesn't crush the next LS in styling, again.

    ljflx,

    "I find it interesting that the S will have engines ranging from a 6cyl (probably not here) to
    a 600HP V8 plus a V12. Obviously they are paying close attenion to Lexus announcements these days."


    What? You've got to stay current. Lexus is the one increasing their engine lineup to match the market and Mercedes' not the other way around. The S-Class is available now with V6s, V8s and a V12 from 245hp to 604hp. You seem to forget which one of these companies has been following the other since 1990 when it comes to things like engine choices and model.

    I'm sorry but whoever you were talking to doesn't have a clue. They're smart enough not to be under the false impression of Mercedes' superiority, but they think Audi is still suffering from something that happened nearly 20 years ago, something that wasn't even their fault. That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. These people are supposed to be in the "know"?

    I have yet to see a LS430 Euro outhandle a S430/S500 Sport. Why you insist on comparing cars that are not evenly spec'd I'll never know. Gee the S55 will outrun the LS430.

    Lexusguy,

    "Those pointless brakes are a definite sore point with me, its been proven that they do NOT outperform standard mechanical brakes..."

    That simply is not true in every case. Look at the numbers for the E320 in Road and Track's last comparo. Ditto for the SL500 in Car and Driver's last comparo.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    From what I've seen, the E needs 120+ feet to stop from 60. The GS can do it in 115 or under. Lexus is not the pedal feel king, but at least the brakes in the GS feels like brakes. Mercedes has a computer simulation of what brakes supposedly should feel like. How does the Matrix know what Tasty Wheat tasted like? What if they got it wrong?

    That post was kind of hostile merc, are you worried that Japan will finally step up to the plate and crush the Europeans once and for all? It is inevitable. Resistance is futile.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well then you haven't seen all the tests in which Mercedes' were tested, like the two I mentioned. No hostility...just some of the hype on this board is so ridiculous at times. The Japanese will never crush the Europeans. There, you read it here first.

    I find it totally laughable that anyone who thinks a Lexus is a good looking car could criticize anything else on the road.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Oh I dont know about that. German prices keep skyrocketing, and their quality continues to stagnate. Infiniti has only become a player since the G35 came on the scene, which is just a few years. How long have BMWs been on sale here? Given until the end of the decade to fill out its product line, BMW will have much to fear from Nissan. Acura has come out of its slumber as well. Both should put even more of a dent in the European's already eroding sales and market share.

    Oh, btw, the first generation Lexus SC coupe was pretty much universally praised as a gorgeous car for its time, and its styling beat the pants off the ugly, big and blocky first gen CL coupe, that was basically a 2-door S.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    We'll just have to see what happens. For Infiniti or Acura to do anything to Mercedes or BMW they'll have to become global brands and in Acura's case they'll have to build a real luxury car. This means no Accord based fwd/awd V6 powered vehicles. They'll have to do an S-Class/LS/7-Series type car and it will need to be badged an Acura all over the world. As far as I know they aren't going global with the Acura name. I'm not even concerned with Acura past 35K. Infiniti is going global, but it won't be complete until 2008 or so. Infiniti will pose the biggest threat to BMW, but the Germans aren't going to stand still until then either.

    You're right about the previous generation Lexus SC400/300, it was good looking for a Japanese car, but Lexus neglected the car in the marketplace. My how things change because the CL of today beats the pants off the SC430 as does the SL. One good looking car in 14 years of existence is pretty dismal.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Go back and read. The person inquiring asked about an LS euro vs a base S430. It's not a mag contest and I don't insist on comparing the two at all. The euro costs the same as the regular edition mod lux car in the Lexus line-up which is why the comparison to a base S-class is valid anyway. Can you even get an S430 sport? I thought it was limited to an S500 in sport edition.

    I have never seen a 600HP V8 from Benz available on their base cars. Thus my other remark.

    Audi only sells 80K cars a year here. I actually think the comments are quite valid. People will hesitate to make Audi a big seller here until they prove to be very reliable and the acceleration problem (which I never bought as a real problem anyway) was the first manifestation of an unreliable car - at least in public perceptions. As for the folks i talked to - they are all $250K+ players and two have equity ownership positions in their dealerships. I think they know their industry a lot better than you or I know it. It's also a close knit industry.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I was refering more to the North American market, where Infiniti and Acura are already established. BMWs sales here dont come from the 7 series, the come from 3 series and X5. If the G35 and FX45 are faster and better values than comparable BMWs (which they are) it spells big trouble for BMW. For Acura to jump into the tiny volume full size lux market (which there already was not enough room for a VW) would be pointless. What they need to do is, just like Infiniti, beat BMW (and M-B) where it hurts, with a hopefully AWD TL, and an eventually redesigned MDX.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I think Acura could do to Lexus what Lexus did to Mercedes...Especally when they started up....Come in with big luxury package price the car at $50,000 with a package similar to the Ultra.

    But first they will need to come up with a nice V8 and then an attractive design both in and out...

    Acura however is the only one who I think could crack into the market...The Germans are just not competitive enough.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “Lastly they are all upset about the NSX as well despite its low sales volume as it could have and should have been a halo car matched with a true V8 flagship sedan to compete with Lexus, Infiniti and the Germans.”

    Been meaning to respond to this. NSX is an awesome car. However, I think it is living proof that when it comes to Japanese cars, the world is not yet ready to pay “more for more” in the ilk of German cars. As expensive as Porsches are, NSX is one non-European car that Porsche wallops on price. And at one time not too long ago, it was almost twice as expensive as the extremely popular Corvette. Low sales of NSX tend to show us what the world expects from Japan, and that is “more for less”.

    The distinction of being able to do “more for more” still belongs to the Germans. When this changes, the Japanese will truly have arrived as prestigious brands. Mind you, I am not saying the Japanese don’t make superior products in many cases, it’s just that they haven’t proven they can get the price that the Germans command. Discounting is a crack in the German armor, but there is still quite a way to go. The interesting thing is that I think we are right in the middle of witnessing that tranformation.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I agree with you sbout Acura and Infiniti. I have no doubt that Lexus can command over $100K pretty easily for a V12 equivalent car and will probably introduce a $150K car in the next few years. Lexus has separated themselves from the rest of the Japanese. I think the high German prices are already running into plenty of resistance and won't hold. The resale values are far too low in percentage terms to hold the high prices for the new cars in place. It's already pretty obvious but you'll never know it from the Edmunds TMV. But a $77K MB S is less than $150 different in lease price than a $62K LS430 now and the 745LI at $76K was barely more than my $64K custom LS a few months back. On top of that its the LS that holds 60-62% of its value after 3 years. The others are in the low 50's. Without that resale foundation the upfront price just won't hold unless its heavily subsidized and disguised which is what is happening already.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Lexus truly have separated themselves from the rest of the Japanese. It is now up to Infiniti and Acura to duke it out as the next up-and-comer brand in the US lux market. That's whay these two companies are taking on BMW knowing Lexus pretty much sowed up the MB level competition.

    By 2006, the competition at the upper echelon of the lux market will truly heat up. If the 2006 LS is the LF-S design, and if by MY 2007, Lexus comes out with the LWB version, with the 600HP hybrid-ized engine, then MB will truly face its stiffest competition yet. No amount of gnashing of the teeth, or the wringing of hands will wish away the poor reliability and quality of MBs going forward. Truly, their marqueness is slowly eroding, and the evidence is overwhelming. Like most historical things, it may take a while for its full effect to manifest.

    Time, always, is the enemy (or friend) here.

    ps: Merc1, you need to tone down your lambasting of Lexus-fans at the obvious ugliness of the new and improved 2006 S-class spy pics. There is no need to focus on Lexus-ophiles, rather you need to direct your anger at MB for their poor judgement in coming up with such a disastrous design for their top brand. Are they that scared of Lexus to rush through such poor design???? Hehehehe.....
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I think Mercedes is also hurting it's image with it's cheap line of cars. They look like Mercedes but an inspection reveals that they are really cheap..

    When the image goes what will Mercedes have left to sell?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes you can get a S430 Sport. The Sport package is an option on the S430, S500 and S600. My point had nothing to do with what someone was comparing this time around, you've always stated the same thing that a Euro LS will outhandle a base S-Class.......that shouldn't be a shock. My point is that when you evenly spec the cars you can't say such a thing about the LS. You always state as such like a better handling S-Class can't be had.

    "I have never seen a 600HP V8 from Benz available on their base cars. Thus my other remark."

    I'm not sure what you mean here?? No car in this class is going to have a 600hp V8 or any other cylinder configuraton as the "base" engine, with that much hp. Please explain what you're talking about here. You think the next LS is going to have a 600hp V8 as the "base" engine?

    "Audi only sells 80K cars a year here. I actually think the comments are quite valid. People will hesitate to make Audi a big seller here until they prove to be very reliable and the acceleration problem (which I never bought as a real problem anyway) was the first manifestation of an unreliable car - at least in public perceptions. As for the folks i talked to - they are all $250K+ players and two have equity ownership positions in their dealerships. I think they know their industry a lot better than you or I know it. It's also a close knit industry."

    I agree that Audi has a problem, but it isn't unintended acceleration. Anyone who thinks that Audi is still suffering from something back in 1985 is just lost imo. If these people are truly in the industry then they should know the facts surrounding that whole episode about Audi. Audi's biggest problem is reliability.........and it had nothing to with that acceleration mess. I'm wondering if you even know what the true problem was with Audi back in 1985?

    lexusguy,

    I just can't get worried about Acura. They're not even willing to make a rwd or V8 car. There is only so much you can do for under 50K with fwd/awd and V6s. To take on Mercedes and BMW at the top of their game and brush aside their image and market power you have to build a true upper-class car that plays their game. So far Lexus is the only one openely talking about a 100K V8 or V12 luxury car or who competes with the Germany's best cars (sedans at least) right now. Neither Acura or Infiniti can give away their most expensive cars. Bold prediction: I expect Cadillac to place above Acura in the next few years because they're willing to push boundaries that Acura simply won't.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I really dont see Acura doing much damage to Lexus. The two brands are just too differently focused. Lexus' strength, at least right now, comes from ES, RX, and LS. Acura cant do a car like the ES. The MDX cant sell for $43K+ so they will not be able to offer the level of refinement and materials quality that RX has. Acura has no LS fighter whatsoever.

    Infiniti also wont do any real damage because Infiniti and Lexus are pretty much polar opposites. The cars that Infiniti has tried to position against Lexus, I and Q, have both been huge flops. You'll notice that the I did not get a redesign with its Maxima cousin. I think it will not get one. Same goes for Q. As OAC said, I think they are content to let Lexus gun for M-B, and generally avoid them. Theres fresh meat on BMW and Audi, and thats where Acura and Infiniti can get stronger.

    As for the Germans themselves, they are at an interesting cross roads at the moment. They want to preserve their luxury prestige here, but at the same time, they want to offer increasingly lower and lower priced models. Europeans might not even blink at the idea of a C230 taxi cab, but I think that would definitely give American C-class owners some pause. Because they have no "regular" Toyota or Honda or Nissan type badge, they must offer the C230 coupe, Audi A3, and upcoming 1 series with the same badge as their $100K machines. I'm not sure in this market that is a good idea. The global auto market at this point is probably the most brutal it has been in history. If you take away your own badge prestige by offering $20K cars with the blue and white prop, 4 rings, or 3-pointed star, how do you continue to justify your asking prices as the Japanese (and Koreans) get stronger and stronger?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Good points. This Japanese onslaught happened 20+ years ago with regular cars and Detroit survived, barely. The British as a whole had their entire automotive industry collaspe and wind up in German (VW, BMW) or American (Ford) hands. Think about it, Jaguar, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, and Aston-Martin....some of the most prestigious names in the history of the automobile are no longer British owned. The difference is that Germany is the driving automotive force in Europe and they aren't going to just roll over, they'll at some point re-invent themselves to deal with all these new challenges.

    The one I'm the most worried about overall is BMW. This styling is going to catch up with them at some point. So far they have stood by their design department's (Chris Bangle didn't even personally draw the 6-Series or X3 people, only the 7-Series was truly "his") new styling direction. The real test will be the 2006 3-Series. Will they destroy the most critically acclaimed car in the 30-40K bracket just for the sake of change? We'll find out in Sept of 2005. The 2005 Frankfurt autoshow will also reveal the next S-Class, which certain people are desperately hoping turns out to be an ugly car.

    You're right about Acura. They're limited not by talent, but by Honda's smaller is better thinking and smaller budget compared to Nissan and Toyota. A shame really because a big rwd Acura with a Vtec V8 sounds really nice. In theory they could do to Lexus what Lexus did to Mercedes, but to execute this will require a fundamental shift in Honda thinking, that isn't going to happen.

    I think the brands to watch with varying degrees are Audi, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz. BMW has a new 3-Series coming, but after that things will cool down for them somewhat.

    Audi will introduce a new model every year from now until 2008! A new TT, A6, A6-based Coupe (think Novoluari Concept), S8, RS6, updated 2005.5 A4, RS4, and a production version of the LeMans Quattro. All Audi needs to do is improve reliability because unlike BMW their designs make all Japanese and some European cars look like toasters and refrigerators.

    Cadillac is working on a 100K+ car to compete with the S600s of the world. They'll have performance variants of the CTS, STS, XLR, and possibly the SRX. There is a new smaller Cadillac on the drawing board for Europe. Naturally the car I'm most interested in seeing is this 100K car they keep talking about. Unfortunately I don't see Cadillac becoming the "Standard of the World" again though. The XLR and CTS just aren't the worldbeaters they promised. Cadillac will gain a lot of attention with all the new product, but unless it is executed right....

    Lexus has a new LS, GS, HPX (don't think for one moment this crossover won't be built), and most importantly a new IS. I think the next IS is the most important upcoming product launch for them, not the LS, GS or the hybrids. Why? Because this is type of car that BMW sells over 100K of each year. Lexus currently stands at 12-15K a year. They want to desperately crank up those numbers. A new IS Coupe, Sedan, Convertible and Wagon are very critical to Lexus' 350K a year sales goal.

    After Lexus, Cadillac and Audi...there is Infiniti on the watch list. The new M35/45 should do better than the current car. How could it not? Infiniti's biggest problem is Lexus. When people go looking for a truly upscale Japanese car, Lexus' LS is the one on their list, not the Q45. How does Infiniti turn that around? The next generation Skyline is coming here in 2007 as a Infiniti. If Infiniti is smart they'll do a G35 convertible and a hi-po version....a G45 Sedan with the 4.5L V8 tweaked for at least 350hp to take on the M3/S4/C55 etc.

    On a different note I predict the Koreans will introduce a luxury division complete with a real rwd V8 luxury car in about 10 years at the rate they're going.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "The real test will be the 2006 3-Series. Will they destroy the most critically acclaimed car in the 30-40K bracket just for the sake of change? We'll find out in Sept of 2005. The 2005 Frankfurt autoshow will also reveal the next S-Class, which certain people are desperately hoping turns out to be an ugly car."

    I think the 3 is as good as destroyed. I read somewhere that iDrive will be applied only for nav. I think this is a sign that they perceive iDrive to be the problem with their sales, not style. Me, I'll take a thousand iDrives with great styling.

    On the other hand, I am desperately hoping all Mercedes turn out to be gorgeous. I root for all cars to be lookers… makes the pickins better. Unfortunately, I think the S we see in those spy pics is basically the one we are getting. It looks bloated and homely. The spy pics of test horses have been pretty accurate except for minor trim details. No?
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Without much negotiation, I have been quoted about 1K under invoice on an S430 4 Matic. I realize that there is 3K coming back to the dealer from the company so they will still net 1K.

    Do you think this is a fair price?

    They are also offering a 39 month residual of 53% and a money factor of .00255 on a lease. I think both of these may also be factory subsidized as well.

    Better to lease or buy on this deal?

    As posted earlier I am down to S Class vs LS and think both are great cars but the drive of the S and the 4 matic give an edge to the MB in my opinion. I am assuming that a well equipped LS can be had for around 65K that makes it "only" about a 5k difference.

    Any thoughts on the price of the MB? Can I do better?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The write-up with one of the S-class spy shots photo said they would have a 600hp V8 as well as a V12. I don't understand the logic or see any need for both (unless they push the V12 up to 700hp) but that is what was stated. My "paying attention" point was simple - Lexus says they are coming with a 600hp V8 hybrid and right afterward you hear MB mentioned as coming with a 600hp V8. How they bring that in - base car availability or special order AMG is not noted. I'm sure the Lexus 600hp will be a special order car (though they probably will ship a bunch un-ordered that will probably be snapped right up the way the ultra was in 2001 - its the way they do things). But that mid level hybrid - which will probably be their $75K bread and butter car will likely be in the mid 4's on hp. What I'm wondering is what happens to the base 290hp gas engine. I think you see three trims - the gas engine probably moving up to 340-360hp and a $65-$70k car, the mid-level hybrid ($75 - $85K range) and the high-end hybrid ($100-$110k range). This probably carries through to whatever the SC becomes and to the big engine GS as well but without the 600hp option. When it is new lease time for me there will be no hesitation on my part to taking the $75K-$85k car. Its just going to be weird getting better mileage in the city than on the highway.

    Funny thing - the hybids were hardly mentioned anywhere a year ago. Now they are popping up in stories everywhere as the "hot" item. They will be badly needed to sustain the SUV bull market. Newsweek or Time had a story on this just this week. I read a few days ago that the Google owners drive Prius'. Believe me - hybrids will be the rage. The momemtum is alraedy too far gone to stop it. Diesels may end up dominating in Europe but they have no chance here. This is a lot more predictable then the bust we knew the idrive was going to be on the 7-series and that one was pretty easy to see.

    Maybe I missed it but what's your take on those S-class photos. The ones Pablo posted look good to me though the back-end looks more like what you'd expect on a C-class. The other ones are a big drop-off in looks from the current car - if they are the real thing.
  • jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    Take a look at the uncovered shot of the new '06 ML testing in Alabama. It looks very Acura MDX like. I think MB is loosing its ability to make cars "lookers." Perhaps this for tells the S class.

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7247&sid=17- 8&n=158
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I think it's a big improvement. I like the front, looks like a Mercedes. They should put those lights on the sedans. A little too much topography on the flares around the wheel wells but it sure beats the midriff bulge on the X5. I see Nissan influence. Would like to see the back though. I wouldn't be surprised if that part of it looks like an elephant that raided the pizza store. Getting both ends to complement each other is rare these days. And I think all SUVs could use slimmer C columns. However this one has a nice shape.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The 3 series is definitely going to be a VERY important car. BMW has held on to its "better than all your cars" image with basically that car (and some help from the 5 of course.) But the new 5 is not that great. If the 3 is also not that great, G35 will jump on it like a wolf on a frightened bunny, with TL stepping in to mop up the left overs.

    The British auto industry's problem was it was all too high end for its own good. You cant survive in the modern age without being a volume player. What happened to Jag, Aston, etc, would've happened to Porsche without the Cayenne. It would be like if M-B was a company that just sold SL500s and SLRs. They'd get killed in seconds. The Germans arent invincible though. If sales trends just keep going down and down as they are now, they wont dissappear completely, but they may go the route of Alfa Romeo, Peugot, and Renault and leave the American market. Not that Im saying that is going to happen any time soon.

    The IS is definitely going to be a very interesting car for Lexus. The Altezza rebadge that we have now is absolutely nothing like the new car is going to be, but it will face competition from G35 and TSX\TL, which most of the rest of their line up does not. What would be nice is if the IS convinces Acura to fill out its line up some more.

    The new ML still doesnt do anything for me styling wise. I think its rather bland generic-asia in the front, while trying to retain some styling cues from the old car around the back. What makes it a M-B? It could have a KIA badge on it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “What happened to Jag, Aston, etc, would've happened to Porsche without the Cayenne. It would be like if M-B was a company that just sold SL500s and SLRs. They'd get killed in seconds.”

    Well the last time I looked Porsche only has three model platforms plus the supercar Carrera GT. Theyre not dead yet. Cayenne is a prostitute… it’s about staying alive. No one has survival instincts like Porsche. They’ve been on the brink quite often. Tells you something about passion, the mission and not selling the soul. They are the only production manufacturer with a truly artistic personality.

    Porsche. There is no substitute.

    (I think their internal corporate slogan is “Business Shmizness.” I don't think they would have even considered Cayenne if a couple of accountants didn't sit them down and give them a lecture.)

    :-)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You and lexusguy had some excellent posts about 8 or 10 posts back. His points about cheaper MB's and BMW's for the american market are so right on and you've always said MB would be nuts to go any cheaper. So enter business 101 logic. Why not introduce the cheaper MB's as Chryslers. Solves every possible American problem but maybe opens up a can of worms in Europe. If that's the case just re-work the grill or something on the front-end for the American versions. Just like I don't want to see a Lexus "corolla", no MB S500 or higher buyer will want to see an $18K car with the three pointed star on it. But business logic says why cut-off the whole American market because of prestige. Just re-badge those cars. Plus look at the box it puts BMW in. Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, MB, Jaguar and Audi all have outlets for cheaper cars. BMW is stuck without one. What am I missing?
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