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Comments
Compare the S-class spy pics here:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7250&sid=17- 8&n=158
versus Lexus' LFS concepts here:
http://www.carenthusiast.com/tokyo2003.html?article=169
http://www.lexus.com/about/concept/lf-s_gallery_exterior_photos.h- tml
And you see the difference !!!
OAC - I was out to a big local charity event this weekend and talked cars with a bunch of people. There were a few people in the crowd who are senior managers or GM's of local car dealerships including Caddy, Ford and Acura. I was really surprised at the tone about MB. They have fallen a lot further than I realized within the car dealer trade. No one wants used MB's and there is a lot more desperation at Benz than I think most of us realize based on the people I talked to. The consensus from my discussions was that Lexus is now viewed as the car to beat and the car that runs forever and the envy of the industry. I'm not talking enthusiasts here - I'm talking build quality, reliability, resale value and the integrity the brand now has to people. When they add in some more spice in the next few years they will take the torch from MB here in the US in the media's eyes as well. BMW is the most exciting car, still built wth excellent quality and great engines but overly engineered electronically (and its hurting them) and MB is living off a name and a quality past. The people I talked to said the 7-series is a bust (and its sales are heavily subsidized) but the 5-series is pretty much accepted - its just not a run away success. Audi has yet to recover from the old acceleration problems and may never do so and VW is hopelessly lost. Caddy intends to model itself on BMW excitement and Lexus excellence. Good luck with that one but nevertheless there is a lot of excitement at Caddilac these days. Lastly Acura is in the position to do what Caddilac wishes to do but they'll never get there without a big engine. The Acura guy was besides himself that they still lack a V8 and dealerships across the US have petitioned Honda to do something about this. Lastly they are all upset about the NSX as well despite its low sales volume as it could have and should have been a halo car matched with a true V8 flagship sedan to compete with Lexus, Infiniti and the Germans. They need the V8 to portray themselves as heavyweights.
lexusguy,
Yep, you may have seen too many, but then again the S600 (except for the wheels) looks just like the S430.
ljflx,
Yikes a bunch of dealership people from Acura and Ford say that MB is finished, they of course know what they're talking about wouldn't be biased at all. Acura especially. Mercedes is finished in their eyes yet Acura still doesn't measure up past one car. Makes sense to me.
The group you spoke with should be disqualified immediately from talking about cars if they're still thinking about Audi's unfounded unintended acceleration episode back in what..the 1980s. Dude they're clueless. Audi was found to be not at fault! You're saying this groups sees Lexus as the standard in quality and reliability. Gasp! Nobody disputed that and its been harped on every spring for the last 10 years when the surveys are released. You're right this group aren't enthusiasts, but I'm glad you recognize this. They think Mercedes is living off their past yet their stuck in the past when thinking about Audi. The 7-Series has excellent quality? Yet this is the car that this crowd's bible (Consumer Reports) said was more troublesome than a 1996 LS400 is today in 2004! What a knowledgeable bunch.
M
http://www.autobild.de/projektor/projektor.php?artikel_id=5334&am- p;pos=1
The new S class looks very good to me, easily the best looking car in its class (again).
...pablo
I like the exterior of the Mercedes better then the Lexus, but the lexus has the edge in interior design . The Mercedes has awd, which will come in handy in the wisconsin winters. I've test driven them both, and found both to be very capable and comfortable...although the Lexus gets my nod for quietness and ride quality.
I keep going back and forth between these two..I could see myself owning either one, for different reasons. The big weight on the Lexus side of the scale is reliability and durabilty.
Anyone else have any thoughts comparing these two?
I have not been disappointed at all with my LS. Just did a short road trip to Madison and it was wonderful. I will put winter tires on mine this fall, like I have with my other RWD cars, and don't expect any concerns with mobility this winter.
merc1 - If you read again you'll see that I posted they thought the 7-series was a bust but that BMW's - in general- were still well made cars. I didn't say that MB was dead or headed for disaster. Falling from the number 1 spot doesn't mean you are going out of business. I was just surprised that the "Trade" opinion of MB is a lot worse than I thought it would be and pretty much in-line with Consumer Reports indexes.
http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/business/10877346- 48278220.xml?banew
I am not a big fan of several of Mercsa new designs: the Maybach is a disaster, a vulgar car design. The new SLK looks slightly Pontiac Aztec-ish. The rest of the line-up, howver, while not imaginative is not a bad looking set of cars, arguably in average Mercedes might stil have the better designs out there now that Jaguar has fattened the XJ and Audi has felt compelled to put that horrible new grill into their cars.
As for Lexus, I would not get too excited because they get two showcars out. The SC430 has not aged well at all, it looks very 3 years ago. They will not dare to make the same mistake with their most important cars.
I'm not impressed with the new S class. It looks as generic as ever. I'm quite disappointed considering how good the CL and SL look. I think the current gen S Class is much better than the new design. But I'll withold judgement until I see what the new LS430 looks like. If it looks like the current gen S Class, I'll never buy another Lexus again reliabilty be damned.
I really don't think anyone is building a nice looking Lux car these days. What do you all think?
SV
Yes sir. However, the sports car is the last bastion of hope, for no other reason than they have to be made lean, unlike every other class which can be Rubenesque. 350Z, Boxster, 911, S2000, Vette, NSX, T-Bird, MR2, Miata these are all beautiful or at least decent looking cars. Of course BMW and MB are doing their best to screw that up too.
After extensive test drives in each I have come to the following conclusions:
Ride- MB gets nod- it is the best riding car I've ever been in. Lexus is super smooth but not quite as tight as I'm used to.
Seats- I give edge to MB. The European seats which are a bit more firm are more to my taste.
Handling- MB
Value- Lexus- many more goodies included for less $
Styling- I prefer the classic Benz.
Reliability- I am sure Lexus will win out.
But a key component may be the option to get all wheel drive on the Benz. I live in the NE and it would be very helpful here.
The price difference is about 10K as MB is aggressively moving out S Class with a 3K factory kicker to the dealer. I don't particularly care which company wins or loses in the volume game so I don't get caught up in some of the posts I see here where it reminds me of debating which baseball team is better. I only care about which is good for me and which car I will be happy with because either way it's a lot of $.
I know that MB has taken a hit in the quality rankings but I also know many people who love their MB's. I can handle a few extra trips to the service department but I did own an ML that stranded me once. That was unacceptable.
Any objective data would be helpful.
The LS vs S discussion tends to dominate this board, with passionate membership on both sides. Two great cars, built to favor different aspects. The "better" car is the one that fits you best. It seems from your prior post that you would be happier with a MB. I had to make the same choice, and although I had two MB's previously I took the LS. Unless something drastic happens I can't see ever going back, but that's because Lexus' target is a bullseye to my personal preferences. Others wouldn't be caught dead in what they see as a boring design that isolates the driver from the road.
The BMW 7 series just didn't do it for me. It's neither fish nor fowl. Not luxurious and not sporty. The Jag XJ is very nice but I'm not sure if it's in the same league. I may take for an extended drive. The A8L was very impressive but the back is so long that it really is a limo. Also, first year model from Audi scares me off a bit. No doubt that LS430 is best bang for buck and a no hassle experience, yet it didn't wow me yet.
Just trying to justify 70K for the MB vs 60 for LS and have a little nagging thought about reliability of the Benz based on Consumers Reports.
OAC - In person the HPX looks nothing like the Infiniti. It's truly an AWD minivan or tall station wagon and not SUV-like at all. Its a softer and more beautiful vehichle than the F45 but nevertheless I like the F45 as well. In pix it does have some feature resemblance to the latter but that disappears quickly when you see it in person. They are clearly two different vehichle types and the F45 has that bulge on the side that the HPX lacks. Someone once described it like stepping on a bug and having the sides bulge out.
designman - looks like the new LS and new S are both 2006 cars with the S having a 6-8 month lead time. I find it interesting that the S will have engines ranging from a 6cyl (probably not here) to a 600HP V8 plus a V12. Obviously they are paying close attenion to Lexus announcements these days.
My trip to Japan was disappointing in terms of learning more about the Lexus plans sans 2005. Seemed like many people are resigned to having re-badged Toyotas as Lexi in Japan in 2005. At least to the ones I talked to, they seemed ambivalent about buying rebadged Toyota's as Lexi when Lexus becomes an official brand. They also say that Lexus will be a huge success in Japan when it becomes official. For sure, the only car anyone can certify will be new design in 2005 is the 2006 GS. Else, some feel that the LS, IS and RX will be carry-over Toyota models as they are in 2004. I do not believe this tho', so I have requested for more detective work and a friend has promised to dig more and get the stuff to me shortly, so I am waiting !
A 600HP MB ? Not anything new these days ? Its all about HP with MB. New design looks like destined to the dogs, electronics that we know won't work as advertised, and a brand over-promising and under-delivering will finally get what its due sooner rather than later. Its only a matter of time now !!!
The LF-X is not even remotely close to the FX, I agree with you completely. If Lexus ever makes that car, they'll sell every one made, I'd wager.
Designman: Yeah, the stakes for Lexus to deliver the LF-S and LF-C are high indeed ! Everyone is waiting and watching. If they ever do, the US lux car playing field as we currently know it would be forever changed AGAIN
lexusguy: Yeah, great moniker. Fits quite well these days. I'd rather be a lexusguy than an MB, BMW, Audi or VW-guy !!! These manufacturers seemed to not have a clue where they are heading... Just MHO, of course....
I agree on the ML stereo as the best. The Bose on the MB was excellent though. As far as the styling, I think the S Class is classic and will stay that way for a long time. There are trade offs here on both models. One has all wheel drive, the other offers back up camera and blue tooth. The MB has standard air suspension, auto door closers and pre safe, the Lexus has those as options on the Ultra only.
And most importantly in my book is the ride. I am going to test the LS again on a longer ride to see if I'd be happy. It would be great if I preferred it since it's less $ and probably more reliable.
The segment does have some interesting choices. The A8 was very sporty but as I mentioned, I feel a bit silly driving it alone without a paying customer in the rear. Audi told me that they are getting the short wheel base in soon. I didn't think it was being imported to the U.S. but I guess now it is.
The new A6 due this fall could be interesting with the large 8 from the S4. It sounds like it will be a mini A8 and with all bells and whistles will probably be in the low 50K range. It could be a car and I like the new bold grill.
ljflx,
"I find it interesting that the S will have engines ranging from a 6cyl (probably not here) to
a 600HP V8 plus a V12. Obviously they are paying close attenion to Lexus announcements these days."
What? You've got to stay current. Lexus is the one increasing their engine lineup to match the market and Mercedes' not the other way around. The S-Class is available now with V6s, V8s and a V12 from 245hp to 604hp. You seem to forget which one of these companies has been following the other since 1990 when it comes to things like engine choices and model.
I'm sorry but whoever you were talking to doesn't have a clue. They're smart enough not to be under the false impression of Mercedes' superiority, but they think Audi is still suffering from something that happened nearly 20 years ago, something that wasn't even their fault. That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. These people are supposed to be in the "know"?
I have yet to see a LS430 Euro outhandle a S430/S500 Sport. Why you insist on comparing cars that are not evenly spec'd I'll never know. Gee the S55 will outrun the LS430.
Lexusguy,
"Those pointless brakes are a definite sore point with me, its been proven that they do NOT outperform standard mechanical brakes..."
That simply is not true in every case. Look at the numbers for the E320 in Road and Track's last comparo. Ditto for the SL500 in Car and Driver's last comparo.
M
That post was kind of hostile merc, are you worried that Japan will finally step up to the plate and crush the Europeans once and for all? It is inevitable. Resistance is futile.
I find it totally laughable that anyone who thinks a Lexus is a good looking car could criticize anything else on the road.
M
Oh, btw, the first generation Lexus SC coupe was pretty much universally praised as a gorgeous car for its time, and its styling beat the pants off the ugly, big and blocky first gen CL coupe, that was basically a 2-door S.
You're right about the previous generation Lexus SC400/300, it was good looking for a Japanese car, but Lexus neglected the car in the marketplace. My how things change because the CL of today beats the pants off the SC430 as does the SL. One good looking car in 14 years of existence is pretty dismal.
M
I have never seen a 600HP V8 from Benz available on their base cars. Thus my other remark.
Audi only sells 80K cars a year here. I actually think the comments are quite valid. People will hesitate to make Audi a big seller here until they prove to be very reliable and the acceleration problem (which I never bought as a real problem anyway) was the first manifestation of an unreliable car - at least in public perceptions. As for the folks i talked to - they are all $250K+ players and two have equity ownership positions in their dealerships. I think they know their industry a lot better than you or I know it. It's also a close knit industry.
But first they will need to come up with a nice V8 and then an attractive design both in and out...
Acura however is the only one who I think could crack into the market...The Germans are just not competitive enough.
Been meaning to respond to this. NSX is an awesome car. However, I think it is living proof that when it comes to Japanese cars, the world is not yet ready to pay “more for more” in the ilk of German cars. As expensive as Porsches are, NSX is one non-European car that Porsche wallops on price. And at one time not too long ago, it was almost twice as expensive as the extremely popular Corvette. Low sales of NSX tend to show us what the world expects from Japan, and that is “more for less”.
The distinction of being able to do “more for more” still belongs to the Germans. When this changes, the Japanese will truly have arrived as prestigious brands. Mind you, I am not saying the Japanese don’t make superior products in many cases, it’s just that they haven’t proven they can get the price that the Germans command. Discounting is a crack in the German armor, but there is still quite a way to go. The interesting thing is that I think we are right in the middle of witnessing that tranformation.
By 2006, the competition at the upper echelon of the lux market will truly heat up. If the 2006 LS is the LF-S design, and if by MY 2007, Lexus comes out with the LWB version, with the 600HP hybrid-ized engine, then MB will truly face its stiffest competition yet. No amount of gnashing of the teeth, or the wringing of hands will wish away the poor reliability and quality of MBs going forward. Truly, their marqueness is slowly eroding, and the evidence is overwhelming. Like most historical things, it may take a while for its full effect to manifest.
Time, always, is the enemy (or friend) here.
ps: Merc1, you need to tone down your lambasting of Lexus-fans at the obvious ugliness of the new and improved 2006 S-class spy pics. There is no need to focus on Lexus-ophiles, rather you need to direct your anger at MB for their poor judgement in coming up with such a disastrous design for their top brand. Are they that scared of Lexus to rush through such poor design???? Hehehehe.....
When the image goes what will Mercedes have left to sell?
"I have never seen a 600HP V8 from Benz available on their base cars. Thus my other remark."
I'm not sure what you mean here?? No car in this class is going to have a 600hp V8 or any other cylinder configuraton as the "base" engine, with that much hp. Please explain what you're talking about here. You think the next LS is going to have a 600hp V8 as the "base" engine?
"Audi only sells 80K cars a year here. I actually think the comments are quite valid. People will hesitate to make Audi a big seller here until they prove to be very reliable and the acceleration problem (which I never bought as a real problem anyway) was the first manifestation of an unreliable car - at least in public perceptions. As for the folks i talked to - they are all $250K+ players and two have equity ownership positions in their dealerships. I think they know their industry a lot better than you or I know it. It's also a close knit industry."
I agree that Audi has a problem, but it isn't unintended acceleration. Anyone who thinks that Audi is still suffering from something back in 1985 is just lost imo. If these people are truly in the industry then they should know the facts surrounding that whole episode about Audi. Audi's biggest problem is reliability.........and it had nothing to with that acceleration mess. I'm wondering if you even know what the true problem was with Audi back in 1985?
lexusguy,
I just can't get worried about Acura. They're not even willing to make a rwd or V8 car. There is only so much you can do for under 50K with fwd/awd and V6s. To take on Mercedes and BMW at the top of their game and brush aside their image and market power you have to build a true upper-class car that plays their game. So far Lexus is the only one openely talking about a 100K V8 or V12 luxury car or who competes with the Germany's best cars (sedans at least) right now. Neither Acura or Infiniti can give away their most expensive cars. Bold prediction: I expect Cadillac to place above Acura in the next few years because they're willing to push boundaries that Acura simply won't.
M
Infiniti also wont do any real damage because Infiniti and Lexus are pretty much polar opposites. The cars that Infiniti has tried to position against Lexus, I and Q, have both been huge flops. You'll notice that the I did not get a redesign with its Maxima cousin. I think it will not get one. Same goes for Q. As OAC said, I think they are content to let Lexus gun for M-B, and generally avoid them. Theres fresh meat on BMW and Audi, and thats where Acura and Infiniti can get stronger.
As for the Germans themselves, they are at an interesting cross roads at the moment. They want to preserve their luxury prestige here, but at the same time, they want to offer increasingly lower and lower priced models. Europeans might not even blink at the idea of a C230 taxi cab, but I think that would definitely give American C-class owners some pause. Because they have no "regular" Toyota or Honda or Nissan type badge, they must offer the C230 coupe, Audi A3, and upcoming 1 series with the same badge as their $100K machines. I'm not sure in this market that is a good idea. The global auto market at this point is probably the most brutal it has been in history. If you take away your own badge prestige by offering $20K cars with the blue and white prop, 4 rings, or 3-pointed star, how do you continue to justify your asking prices as the Japanese (and Koreans) get stronger and stronger?
The one I'm the most worried about overall is BMW. This styling is going to catch up with them at some point. So far they have stood by their design department's (Chris Bangle didn't even personally draw the 6-Series or X3 people, only the 7-Series was truly "his") new styling direction. The real test will be the 2006 3-Series. Will they destroy the most critically acclaimed car in the 30-40K bracket just for the sake of change? We'll find out in Sept of 2005. The 2005 Frankfurt autoshow will also reveal the next S-Class, which certain people are desperately hoping turns out to be an ugly car.
You're right about Acura. They're limited not by talent, but by Honda's smaller is better thinking and smaller budget compared to Nissan and Toyota. A shame really because a big rwd Acura with a Vtec V8 sounds really nice. In theory they could do to Lexus what Lexus did to Mercedes, but to execute this will require a fundamental shift in Honda thinking, that isn't going to happen.
I think the brands to watch with varying degrees are Audi, Cadillac, Infiniti, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz. BMW has a new 3-Series coming, but after that things will cool down for them somewhat.
Audi will introduce a new model every year from now until 2008! A new TT, A6, A6-based Coupe (think Novoluari Concept), S8, RS6, updated 2005.5 A4, RS4, and a production version of the LeMans Quattro. All Audi needs to do is improve reliability because unlike BMW their designs make all Japanese and some European cars look like toasters and refrigerators.
Cadillac is working on a 100K+ car to compete with the S600s of the world. They'll have performance variants of the CTS, STS, XLR, and possibly the SRX. There is a new smaller Cadillac on the drawing board for Europe. Naturally the car I'm most interested in seeing is this 100K car they keep talking about. Unfortunately I don't see Cadillac becoming the "Standard of the World" again though. The XLR and CTS just aren't the worldbeaters they promised. Cadillac will gain a lot of attention with all the new product, but unless it is executed right....
Lexus has a new LS, GS, HPX (don't think for one moment this crossover won't be built), and most importantly a new IS. I think the next IS is the most important upcoming product launch for them, not the LS, GS or the hybrids. Why? Because this is type of car that BMW sells over 100K of each year. Lexus currently stands at 12-15K a year. They want to desperately crank up those numbers. A new IS Coupe, Sedan, Convertible and Wagon are very critical to Lexus' 350K a year sales goal.
After Lexus, Cadillac and Audi...there is Infiniti on the watch list. The new M35/45 should do better than the current car. How could it not? Infiniti's biggest problem is Lexus. When people go looking for a truly upscale Japanese car, Lexus' LS is the one on their list, not the Q45. How does Infiniti turn that around? The next generation Skyline is coming here in 2007 as a Infiniti. If Infiniti is smart they'll do a G35 convertible and a hi-po version....a G45 Sedan with the 4.5L V8 tweaked for at least 350hp to take on the M3/S4/C55 etc.
On a different note I predict the Koreans will introduce a luxury division complete with a real rwd V8 luxury car in about 10 years at the rate they're going.
M
I think the 3 is as good as destroyed. I read somewhere that iDrive will be applied only for nav. I think this is a sign that they perceive iDrive to be the problem with their sales, not style. Me, I'll take a thousand iDrives with great styling.
On the other hand, I am desperately hoping all Mercedes turn out to be gorgeous. I root for all cars to be lookers makes the pickins better. Unfortunately, I think the S we see in those spy pics is basically the one we are getting. It looks bloated and homely. The spy pics of test horses have been pretty accurate except for minor trim details. No?
Do you think this is a fair price?
They are also offering a 39 month residual of 53% and a money factor of .00255 on a lease. I think both of these may also be factory subsidized as well.
Better to lease or buy on this deal?
As posted earlier I am down to S Class vs LS and think both are great cars but the drive of the S and the 4 matic give an edge to the MB in my opinion. I am assuming that a well equipped LS can be had for around 65K that makes it "only" about a 5k difference.
Any thoughts on the price of the MB? Can I do better?
Funny thing - the hybids were hardly mentioned anywhere a year ago. Now they are popping up in stories everywhere as the "hot" item. They will be badly needed to sustain the SUV bull market. Newsweek or Time had a story on this just this week. I read a few days ago that the Google owners drive Prius'. Believe me - hybrids will be the rage. The momemtum is alraedy too far gone to stop it. Diesels may end up dominating in Europe but they have no chance here. This is a lot more predictable then the bust we knew the idrive was going to be on the 7-series and that one was pretty easy to see.
Maybe I missed it but what's your take on those S-class photos. The ones Pablo posted look good to me though the back-end looks more like what you'd expect on a C-class. The other ones are a big drop-off in looks from the current car - if they are the real thing.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7247&sid=17- 8&n=158
The British auto industry's problem was it was all too high end for its own good. You cant survive in the modern age without being a volume player. What happened to Jag, Aston, etc, would've happened to Porsche without the Cayenne. It would be like if M-B was a company that just sold SL500s and SLRs. They'd get killed in seconds. The Germans arent invincible though. If sales trends just keep going down and down as they are now, they wont dissappear completely, but they may go the route of Alfa Romeo, Peugot, and Renault and leave the American market. Not that Im saying that is going to happen any time soon.
The IS is definitely going to be a very interesting car for Lexus. The Altezza rebadge that we have now is absolutely nothing like the new car is going to be, but it will face competition from G35 and TSX\TL, which most of the rest of their line up does not. What would be nice is if the IS convinces Acura to fill out its line up some more.
The new ML still doesnt do anything for me styling wise. I think its rather bland generic-asia in the front, while trying to retain some styling cues from the old car around the back. What makes it a M-B? It could have a KIA badge on it.
Well the last time I looked Porsche only has three model platforms plus the supercar Carrera GT. Theyre not dead yet. Cayenne is a prostitute it’s about staying alive. No one has survival instincts like Porsche. They’ve been on the brink quite often. Tells you something about passion, the mission and not selling the soul. They are the only production manufacturer with a truly artistic personality.
Porsche. There is no substitute.
(I think their internal corporate slogan is “Business Shmizness.” I don't think they would have even considered Cayenne if a couple of accountants didn't sit them down and give them a lecture.)
:-)