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Comments
"Every single criticism you worked up against RL applies to MB of the mid-90's too. Mainstream MB cars were always "heavy tanks"; even the S class of that era faired poorly in latter crash tests (contemporaries were not as obsessed with barrier crash tests as we are now)."
What? You're kidding right? Absolutely not true at all. Mercedes-Benz was crash testing their cars against barriers when the others weren't doing much of anything. Who in the world do you think pioneered the whole offset crash barrier process and came up with the crumple zone concept that every single carmaker today uses??? Please show me the data in which the 1992-1999 S-Class failed any crash test. I'll be eagerly awaiting your results.
You're the only one that thinks the E320 is outdated, which I find to be ridiculous and not based on anything factual. The engine in the E320 does the job and does it well. No? See the last C&D comparo of the E320, GS300, 530i, A6 2.7t, S-Type 3.0 and M45.
"Do you realize that RL is getting an upgrade even before 2006?
Do you realize that it is about darn time? The car has been the same for 9 model years! Talk about not being competitive.
"When Lexus put out the new SC430, it didn't even bother making an SC300 version. Lexus has the meat of the entry-mid luxury market taken care of with the ES300/330 and RX300/330. MB's offerings in that segment, the E320, E320 wagon and ML320/350 have been losing sales to Lexus in dramatic fashion."
You're confused on market segments. The E320 doesn't have a chance at 48K of outselling the ES330/TL nor does it compete with it them 33K. It is beyond ridiculous to even suggest such a thing. I'll give you the the ML isn't even close to being competitive with the RX, no argument there.
The GS300 ain't gonna do squat against what will be the 260+ hp E350 by early next year.
M
If everyone leased then you'd have a point. Secondly the S430 and S500 sell *about* equally.
The 7-Series and S-Class are still more expensive, especially when someone isn't leasing.
M
Of course they don't reccomend the S at the moment due to reliability factors but do report that fit and finish is excellent and rate on a par with the Lexus.
I've always said that 2003+ S-Classes are much better built, but most of (probably all) of the S-Class' critics here haven't looked at an S since 2001.
M
As you, I would rather own the hand crated non electronic watch than the cheaper more accurate, maintanince free one. Products like these (watches, cars etc) are personal expressions. Similar, I guess to people who own exotic cars that require great care. They love them with a passion that you won't see communicated by someone who owns a Honda Accord for instance. I think that reliability for a car is a great attribute but one that is more respected and appreciated rather then arousing the passion of "sex appeal" and performance.
I think Acura with the old NSX, Honda with S2000 and Mazda with Miata have been the leaders in showing that bullet proof reliability and emotional thrills don't have to be mutually exclusive. Hopefully more will follow.
The cars you listed are good examples, but they arent the only ones. There's also the RSX TypeR, Mazda RX-8, Subie WRX STi, Mitsu Lancer EVO, Nissan 350Z, and of course the Legendary GT-R.
NSX and S2000 are the gems to come out of Honda/Acura. Amazing how they are at extreme ends of the price spectrum. NSX is an awesome car that beats the 911 in speed and handling but just can't compete on price. It just never figured into the Japanese "more for less" MO, hence pathetic sales. Yet the S2000 blows away the Boxster on Price. Wonder how the LS would sell if it was say 10 grand more than an S430. NSX is something like $16K more than a base 911. That's the prestige of German cars for you in a nutshell. Will be interesting to see how and if this changes.
Merc
"I'm through with the RL."
Sounds like you might have had some affection for it at one time. Care to explain? RL suffers some heavy losses on paper a serious snubmobile around these threads. I still think it's that good cheap bottle of wine.
Lexusguy
Breitling and Lexus? Interesting association. How's this
Breitling—Porsche
Rolex—BMW
Patek Philippe—Benz
Breguet—Rolls
Movado—Lexus
Rado—Acura
Tag Heuer—Infiniti
Uh oh, hope this doesn't start something ;-)
Ljflx
Checked in with Mrs. Designman on the kitchen appliances. We have an old house and had a new kitchen put in recently but I avoid getting involved in this area like a dog avoids a bath. Yes, our Sub-Zero has the same humidity problem. We have a Bosch and although it has been working well she says Bosch is the worst manufacturer she has ever dealt with. She had some up-front contact with them. What I find to be funny is our Wolf oven that many seem to be ga ga over these days. They look like they belong in an Army mess-hall kitchen. I think the SUV mentality has come to the kitchen.
Saugatak
I struggle to understand the value of high-priced wine. I think I could make more sense out of a pyromaniac's pleasure in burning two hundred-dollar bills. But I used to go for decent cigars go figure. Now it's extremely hard to find good ones. I think there may be people out there making more profit with counterfeit cigars than with drugs. And the tobacco farms are stressed with demand. I blame this all on the ingress of Cigar Aficionado magazine which created the incredible demand back in the early 90s. Before that, the pickins were incredible when Cubans were REAL Cubans. I've heard they even sell counterfeit Cubans in Cuba these days! Seems like the demand has eased up though. I attribute this to the passing fad and men having to go home to the ladies all stanked up wearing cigar cologne—not exactly an aphrodisiac. Although when I was single I did go out with a woman who thought the smell of garlic on a man was sexy. Yeah, whip up some pesto!
Hey, a couple of weeks ago a guy in a top-down Maserati Spyder pulled up next to me in the Boxster on the highway smoking what looked like a stickball bat with a perfect half-inch ash. He just HAD to make a statement hammered down and took off. It was good to see though. That thing has an incredible growl.
Oac
Always enjoy your posts. Man, you take no prisoners!
;-)
I'd say
MB- Rolex - the two most widely known prestige names. Lot's of units produced and sold but still somehow have kept their prestige cache
Lexus- Omega- well known, excellent quality but not rare enough for "real luxury"
Porsche- Brietling- Sport as main theme but not mainstream like TAG
Bentley- Patek- both rare and really not known by everyday people
Rado- Hummer or Jeep- push the utilitarian aspect.
TAG- Acura
Movado-Nissan
There you go, you started something. G-D help us now!
;-)
merc1 - both the S and the 7 are being discounted like never before. In my area an LS430 ultra will price out about the same or slightly cheaper than a $77K S or 7 after the discounts are taken into consideration and be more expensive on lease. The more traditional $62-65K LS430's will still be noticably less in purchase price but are very close on lease due to the combo of subsidized interest rates and higher residuals on the LS. However you want to look at it the "real' prices being paid are the narrowest ever and the LS430 sales are nearly double of the S or 7.
As a watch collector, I do not think that watches and cars have much in common when it comes to buying motivation, but they do provide another example of luxury brand management and the "stickiness" of something in the public's mind. To wit: most watches listed above have near identical mechanical movements, all outsourced to ETA (www.eta.ch). Only a very few brands make their own movements, and often you'll regret it -beautiful as they are- because they are quite unreliable and require $1k+ services every couple of years. In the list in #5594, only Rolex and Patek do their own in-house movements, everybody else goes ETA for mechanical. So the mechanical movement or its accuracy is not really the differentiator, it's how much you like the brand and its marketing. Then, just like in cars, large umbrella corporations own a large number of watch brands, and market them to different audiences. I think between 4 or 5 luxury good corporations they own about 95% of all watch brands. Take a look at http://www.swatchgroup.com/brands/brands.php or http://www.richemont.com/brands/brands_watches.php, so it's about economies of scale there as well.
But the key there is that in watches, like in cars, there is no rational buying decision based on an absolute and accurate "best". It's about best for someone at some specific time. All of the products competing for buyers' are capable of delivering 100% customer satisfaction, otherwise they would no longer be in business.
You can go to thecarconnection.com, auto.com, or probably the auto section of detnews.com and find a link to the article. The article I found doesn't have the full list, but I'm sure it will come out in the coming days or is already on JD Powers website.
"I tend to trust the European studies somewhat more since they are based on the all-over inspections mandated by law that detect build issues very consistently - *every* car on the road is inspected at regular intervals. While Japanese barands consistently score high in there, they seldom score the highest."
How is every car inspected for reliability and quality problems? That looks to me like it would be very very expensive for the government to do which would give no benefit to the governments.
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=861&CatI- - D=1
Make sure to scroll to the bottom of the page for the full results. If you go one level down on that link, you'll find survey results for previous years as well.
In other words, S320 and S280 combined made up for the overwhelming majority of S-class sold worldwide during that time period. The RL sold during that period had much better power to weight ratio than either model. The RL owners indeed got their S-class wannabe for half the price!
Furthermore the S320 was but one S-Class model you still had the option of getting a S420, S500 or S600 during the W1240 S-Class' production run. With Acura you had no choice.
That is a great MB marketting line. How many S-class vehicles was the S320 owner buying any way? Once the S320 was brought home and sitting in the garage, what other engine option did he have? I suppose every aspiring [non-permissible content removed] should be an A-class or C-class because with MB, you have the option of buying an S600 or even Maybach! What a joke.
Do you realize that it is about darn time? The car has been the same for 9 model years! Talk about not being competitive.
Thank you for agreeing with me. The RL, while not obsolete when introduced in 1996, is quite obsolete today, just like the 3.2 MB engine, not necessarily obsolete in the mid-90's, but quite obsolete today.
You're confused on market segments. The E320 doesn't have a chance at 48K of outselling the ES330/TL nor does it compete with it them 33K. It is beyond ridiculous to even suggest such a thing
There are two ways of segmenting market: by size and general vehicle characteristics/utility purpose, and by price alone. E320 is in the same segment as ES330 and TL in terms of vehicle utility purpose and amenity, namely, mid-size sedan with luxury interior appointment. The price difference just goes to show how non-competitive MB has become even as it cheapens the interior material.
I'll give you the the ML isn't even close to being competitive with the RX, no argument there.
The utter failure of the ML class, in the fastest growing market segment of the last half decade, is indicative of how critical MB's market position has become.
The most reliable new car in Germany according to them for now is the Audi A2.
"The Vehicle Dependability Study measures problem symptoms of 3-year-old vehicles, primarily in categories representing malfunctions; noise, vibration and harshness; driveability; dependability; and safety. The VDS is one of three J.D. Power and Associates quality metrics, along with the Initial Quality Study (IQS), which measures quality after 90 days of ownership, and the Automotive, Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) Study, which measures customer perceptions on the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles. The 2004 IQS was released in April, and the 2004 APEAL Study is scheduled to be released in late September.
"The metrics measured in VDS, IQS and APEAL represent a kind of ‘triple crown’ of vehicle performance, which are all essential in providing a complete picture of the ownership experience," said Ivers. "Maintaining very high levels of quality off the assembly line as well as three years later, while also appealing to consumers in terms of design, is no small feat. Among the 2001 model-year vehicles included in the rankings for the 2004 VDS, 2001 IQS and 2001 APEAL studies, only the Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES 300 and Lexus LS 430 have ranked highest in their segments across all three studies."
No MB's. Nada. Glitter, gaudy styling and advertising have run their race.
if you are inspecting a car every 2 years or year how is that going to get you to how reliable a car is? Or how many problems it may have had in between the 2 ends of the inspection times?
If a car is inspected today and is repaired 10 times before the next inspection in 2 years lets say, how does it show up in the inspection?
The methodology of JD with asking what they perceive to be a statistically relevant number of customers is known to be an approach that may contain significant inaccuracies. You know what they say about statistics.
Best thing to do to redisplay the page after posting is to use the "Recent Msgs" link on the page bar.
Of course you can always delete your repost if it happens.
Hope this helps.
To my eye it seems that the new Maxima which has been around for a few years doesn't really get the credit for being on the cutting edge of the new wave of designs that I now see showing up in 5 series, CLS, new GS. I think if that car had a premium badge I would look very differently at it. At least from a design point of view.
maxhonda99,
I agree totally with the latest survey. The Dependability survey is where Mercedes-Benz won't show any improvement for quite a while. This year's study is looking at 2001 models so I expected for Mercedes to do worse because of the S-Class and C-Class of those years. Mercedes won't improve in the Dependability study until at least 2007-8 when the 2004-2005 models will be examined. They might do better in 2006 when the 2003 models are looked at but I wouldn't bet on it.
brightness04,
I no longer find your argument credible. Statements like this:
"hat is a great MB marketting line. How many S-class vehicles was the S320 owner buying any way? Once the S320 was brought home and sitting in the garage, what other engine option did he have? I suppose every aspiring [non-permissible content removed] should be an A-class or C-class because with MB, you have the option of buying an S600 or even Maybach! What a joke"
...throw common sense out the window. I think you know what I meant by what I said earlier. The person who didn't want a S320 had the option of buying a S420, S500 or S600. I can't believe what you just stated. By this samd ridiculous logic, tell me what engine option did an RL buyer have in 1996 or now? Nothing. Zip. Same old 225hp V6 is the sole RL engine choice. RL buyers had no choice. Period.
FYI, the S320 made up to 40 percent (during some years not over the entire model run) of S-Class sales in this country. The S280 was not sold here.
"Thank you for agreeing with me. The RL, while not obsolete when introduced in 1996, is quite obsolete today, just like the 3.2 MB engine, not necessarily obsolete in the mid-90's, but quite obsolete today.
Please tell me how in the real world driving is the E320's engine obsolete. Forget the technical aspects (which most buyers don't know squat about) and tell me why the E320's engine is so out of date. Due tell. Please site credible reviews in which such is stated, not your biased reports.
"here are two ways of segmenting market: by size and general vehicle characteristics/utility purpose, and by price alone. E320 is in the same segment as ES330 and TL in terms of vehicle utility purpose and amenity, namely, mid-size sedan with luxury interior appointment. The price difference just goes to show how non-competitive MB has become even as it cheapens the interior material."
I'm sorry but I find this to be a totally foolish statement. I wouldn't care what size the car is with a price difference that is in play between the E320 and ES330, they are not direct compeititors. The ES330 is cheaper because unlike Mercedes, the Lexus is at heart a heavily modified Camry underneath and that allows Toyota to spread the cost out more, and it is fwd, a much cheaper more pesdestrian layout. To ignore such fundamental differences shows where the logic is coming from.
ljflx,
Don't know about the 7, but the S is still more expensive than the average LS, discount or not. Everyone isn't going to get the deal folks (i.e. informed buyers) get on Edmunds.
M
The price difference between S320 and S600 is more than double the difference between ES330 and E320. By your own logic, the "choice" is simply not there for the particular buyer who ends up buying S320. RL was a very good value proposition for the would-be buyer of S280 and S320. RL didn't have to compete with the S600 (or any other V8 S class); as by extension of your own logic, S320 and S600 were not even in the same market segment with each other anyway.
Please tell me how in the real world driving is the E320's engine obsolete. Forget the technical aspects (which most buyers don't know squat about) and tell me why the E320's engine is so out of date
The engine is underpowered for its displacement; loud and lacking in smoothness compared to its primary competitors: Lexus/Toyota 3.0/3.3, Acura/Honda 3.0/3.2 and BMW 3.0. Take a test drive of the vehicles in question and you will notice that right away. That's why MB is updating the engine.
The ES330 is cheaper because unlike Mercedes, the Lexus is at heart a heavily modified Camry underneath and that allows Toyota to spread the cost out more
What you are neglecting is that the E class _is_ Mercedes' Camry. There are plenty E class taxicabs in Europe that have interiors that are positively plebian compared to fully loaded Camries.
and it is fwd, a much cheaper more pesdestrian layout. To ignore such fundamental differences shows where the logic is coming from.
Like you said earlier in the post, "forget the technical aspects (which most buyers don't know squat about)." Most buyers just want a mid-sized sedan with luxury interior appointment. ES330 delivers that in spades. As for driving dynamics, do we need to recall that MB used to pride itself in driver isolation? It's only after Lexus out-Mercedes'ed Mercedes that MB suddenly decided to talk about driving fun among its sedan offerings.
The RL has flopped in the marketplace so I'm done with it. Keep thinking it was compeitive with an S-Class or anthing else for that matter. The car has been a complete dud.
"The engine is underpowered for its displacement; loud and lacking in smoothness compared to its primary competitors: Lexus/Toyota 3.0/3.3, Acura/Honda 3.0/3.2 and BMW 3.0. Take a test drive of the vehicles in question and you will notice that right away. That's why MB is updating the engine.
Like I said before, please show another source to back up this claim for your opion doesn't jive with me or the luxury car market, which the E320 along with the E-Class leads in sales. Underpowered? Reviews please.
"What you are neglecting is that the E class _is_ Mercedes' Camry. There are plenty E class taxicabs in Europe that have interiors that are positively plebian compared to fully loaded Camries.
And this has what to do with the US market E-Class? Not a darn thing. Those taxis are not fwd and they have the same saftey equimpent as any other E-Class, leather and what not does not define a Benz.
" As for driving dynamics, do we need to recall that MB used to pride itself in driver
isolation? It's only after Lexus out-Mercedes'ed Mercedes that MB suddenly decided to talk about driving fun among its sedan offerings.
This is what is called an excuse for the ES330 not offering any "driving dynamics". A Mercedes was always a road-worthy car. Lexus is the one chasing BMW in two segments only to come up short. One drive in the brand new E-Class will show you that they were not trying to create a 5-Series like Lexus can't seem to do with their GS. They had since 1997 to do so, but haven't. Poof there goes that theory.
Mercedes was and still is about luxury first, then sport. BMW is the opposite. Both have moved in closer proximity to each other, but the basic and traditional rule is still in place.
As far as isolation goes, Mercedes never, ever made their way or sold themselves on "isolation". Never. It was about technical innovation, quality, durability and safety and then performance. Mercedes talks about high-speed stability and control and all in the same sentence as isolation. That would be stupid. Traditionally isolation was focus of Cadillac, Lincoln and now Lexus. Now Lexus and Lincoln are the only ones that even mention such things, everyone else has move on to more exciting things.
M
Hey brightness what is the point of the GS then if the ES is such the mid-size luxury sedan????
Excuse to follow.
M
Brightness04
I'm not sure about those spades. A colleague of mine recently got an ES. Looks and feels very Toyota to me, not even close to suggesting the genes of the LS. It doesn't seem to have the brand carryover that the Germans have in their lower end cars. Of course, I wished him luck and told him what a great car it was. His response? Ah-h-h it's a friggin' Toyota. Didn't feel like asking him why he spent the extra money. One thing about Lexus though. The service/reliability seems to be raising the bar with the other marques. I don't see how it can't. No doubt, the Japanese figure large in keeping the Germans in line. Who would have known what the Japanese would turn into after WWII. I remember distinctly the days when "Made in Japan" was synonymous with rank cheap. Man has this changed.
"The RL has flopped in the marketplace so I'm done with it. Keep thinking it was compeitive with an S-Class or anthing else for that matter. The car has been a complete dud."
Merc
I feel funny about harping on the RL, but I'll do it anyway. I think it flopped because too many people thought the price was too good to be true for the lux segment. I fail to see how the TL was so popular but the RL with so much more big-cruiser comfort wasn't, especially at a price difference which isn't nearly as extreme as jumping classes with the other marques. On HP it competes with the 5 and it has a pretty flat torque curve which means an ample supply on the low end. True, it could never compete with the 5 on handling, or the E or S with image. As far as the 4-speed AT, I'd like to know which buyers in the lux segment know the difference. That transmission just doesn't come into play for lux use, it's strictly a paper comparison. Bottom line: it just fell into a market-perception rut from which it couldn't escape "Gee, nobody's buying it, must be something wrong, I'm not taking that chance."
Now I have a confession. When I bought my 530, I lobbied heavily for the TL. My wife liked it also except for the size, so I then pushed the RL and I thought I had a sale. We both like Acuras and the discounts/bargaining opportunities were unbeatable. She drove just about everything out there and the decision looked close. Then she points out, we just have BMW left to test. I was trying to avoid this but couldn't since she is an avid CR reader. Just before she started up the 530 I told her, we might as well write the check now, this is the one you will love, this is the ride with which there is no equal, this is the one that will make you forget about our Volvos forever. Why the confession? It's quite simple. TL or RL would have meant extra cash for the self-indulged designman sports car fund. I had designs on a 911 settled on the Boxster S. Of course I wasn't sneaky about it would have been too ridden with guilt. But her terse pragmatic response to my reasoning was take a hike. Thus, RL never had a chance. But to this armchair critic it is probably the best lux bargain around. Too bad not too many know it. Funny thing about real bargains though, the reason they usually ARE bargains is because only a few know it.
:-)
I caught something on radio about Lexus 04 sales doubling 03 sales.
That doesn't seem possible for the whole line may be possible for the LS only.
I only caught the tail end of the comment...Did anyone else see anything?
Regarding your earlier post on watches, you are very correct about only a few real manufacturers remaining. You may recall that Zenith used to make the movement for Rolex's Daytona watches (Zenith El Primero Chronograph, which is considered to be the gold standard for high end chronograph movements.) Now Rolex, Zenith, Patek and just a handful of others are the last remaining companies who manufacture their own movements for all of their watches.
I guess the auto companies have been using other's parts for a long time. Is there any auto company who makes all engine parts in house?
LOL. That's exactly why I've held off telling the wife about the moo-moos.
I'll tell her after I've spent our money on the Saugatak sports car fund.