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Here I thought Merc1 only cared about the intrinsic quality of cars, not sales success (or lack of). By your logic regarding RL, does it mean that E class is equally not worthy because its sales volume trails ES by a wide margin?
Like I said before, please show another source to back up this claim for your opion doesn't jive with me or the luxury car market, which the E320 along with the E-Class leads in sales. Underpowered? Reviews please.
Do you need reviews to tell you how to open a box of cereal and how to pour milk? Go test drive one against its competitions yourself. Even if you are too lazy to do that, the numbers should tell you the difference:
E320 189.7" 3691lbs 221hp(0.0599hp/lb) 232ft-lbs(0.0629ft-lb/lb)
ES330 191.1" 3460lbs 225hp(0.0650hp/lb) 240ft-lbs(0.0694ft-lb/lb)
530i 190.6" 3472lbs 225hp(0.0648hp/lb) 214ft-lbs(0.0616ft-lb/lb)
TL 189.3" 3575lbs 270hp(0.0755hp/lb) 238ft-lbs(0.0666ft-lb/lb)
G35 186.5" 3336lbs 260hp(0.0779hp/lb) 260ft-lbs(0.0779ft-lb/lb)
Keep in mind that FWD tend to have less mechanical loss, and BMW tends to under-rate their engines.
Poof there goes that theory.
Proof of what? That MB can't make E class as sporty as GS or as cushy as ES, yet cost more than both?
As far as isolation goes, Mercedes never, ever made their way or sold themselves on "isolation".
Please don't tell me chauffered S class (and now Maybach) is about driving pleasure, what, from the rear seat behind the partition window there is a steering wheel??
I'm now sure how much S600 gene we can find in an A class (the best selling MB worldwide). Also, although not as luxurious as an LS430, the ES330 interior is still more luxurious than that of the average E320.
Duh, he also said it hasn't been updated in 9 years and is not competitive with any other car in its class.
Do you need reviews to tell you how to open a box of cereal and how to pour milk?
Sure, all of the reviewers are in the anti-Lexus conspiracy along with Wards Top 10 Engines.
Go test drive one against its competitions yourself.
Seeing as how you bashed GM's 4.2L I6, a Ward's Top 10 nominee without having driven it, I suggest you follow your own advice.
Even if you are too lazy to do that, the numbers should tell you the difference:
[Bunch of HP and torque figures showing that the MB E320 slightly less HP and torque than ES330 and BMW 530i]
You forgot to add 2 sets of numbers: gearing and rear axel ratio.
Keep in mind that FWD tend to have less mechanical loss, and BMW tends to under-rate their engines.
http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0310ec_techbmw/
BMW didn't under-rate the e39 M5 v8 according to this article. 394HP at the crank and typically 300 to 335HP at the wheels sounds more like overrating HP to me.
Proof of what? That MB can't make E class as sporty as GS or as cushy as ES, yet cost more than both?
I guess I always thought of the GS as a slightly sportier, even uglier, RWD version of the ES with the option of a nice v8. IMO, both are cushy and neither is sporty.
Please don't tell me chauffered S class (and now Maybach) is about driving pleasure, what, from the rear seat behind the partition window there is a steering wheel??
Never made much sense to me to compare chauffered cars to non-chauffered cars.
I really like both of these. I like most roadsters. This is the only segment that hasn't let me down with the exception of the Z4. The pickins' are good and that S2000 carries a real big bargain bat. But it's a done deal I've had the Boxster S for 6 months now had the good fortune to come across a one-of-a-kind deal that will probably never be seen again. With the exception of power, the Boxster S is everything the 911 is and more.
BTW, you see the passion all you Lexus guys have for your LSs. I always enjoy noticing this because it's exactly the way I feel about roadsters, particularly the P-car. It's a great feeling aye? Men and their cars. Boys will be boys. This is not to exclude the ladies. I've known quite a few who are just as passionate about cars. It's just that it doesn't seem like there are too many around here.
BMW isn't standing still either, with their rumored turbo option with 333 hp in the upcoming revamped 3-series.
I am pointing out that it is inappropriate for brightness04 to say
(a) test drive X cars and form your own judgment, instead of relying on reviewers
AND
(b) bash Ward's selection of GM's 4.2L I6 without test-driving any cars powered by that engine.
You forgot to add 2 sets of numbers: gearing and rear axel ratio.
I said the MB 3.2 3-valve is behind time and under-powered; that's a position you and Merc1 seem to dispute. What do gearing and rear axel ratio have anything to do with that? You can make gearing and rear axel ratio choices to optimize for 0-60 (which makes 0-60 a bad measure for true performance), but as a consequence you have to compromise somewhere else due to the lack of power.
BMW didn't under-rate the e39 M5 v8 according to this article. 394HP at the crank and typically 300 to 335HP at the wheels sounds more like overrating HP to me.
Are you suggesting the BMW 4.9/5.0 V8 is comparable to the MB 3.2? What exactly does your point have to do with anything here?
Never made much sense to me to compare chauffered cars to non-chauffered cars.
Merc1 was the one who brought up the S class, which actually does historically symbolized MB. S class is marketed as a chauffered car; just check out the emphasis on rear seat comfort that went into the design and marketting. So you are more or less agreeing with me that the MB pedigree is about riding large in the backseat; so much for the sportiness claim ;-)
"Do you need reviews to tell you how to open a box of cereal and how to pour milk? Go test drive one against its competitions yourself. Even if you are too lazy to do that, the numbers should tell you the difference:
You listing the stats for each car doesn't prove of say squat about how they drive, especially compared to a fwd tarted up Camry which you've foolishly tried to compare the E-Class with. You seem to be good at crunching numbers like other Lexi folk, but beyond that you seem lost. If don't care to understand the difference between fwd and rwd dynamics then that is your problem. Whats really amazing is that you'd give the hp/torque ratios for a car without a sporting weld in it's body, the ES330. The group that buys this car isn't concerned with even feeling the road much less actually drivin'.
BTW, I've driven every car you've list except the new 530i. Been there and done that.
If you think S-Classes are mainly chauffered then you're mistaken to say the least. The Maybach was just created and is meant for just that, and that has what to do with the 118 years beforehand when Mercedes was making their name? Mercedes are not about isolation now nor were they in the past. The S600 and Maybach are about the only Benz products you'll find Jeeves driving. The S55 AMG and regular S500/S430 surely aren't chaufrered.
"Do you need reviews to tell you how to open a box of cereal and how to pour milk?" (had to post this one twice)
Nope, but I need a credible review to back up your baseless theories about these cars. Even some within the Lexus camp don't buy this crap about the E320.
Also, I find your explanation about Lexus' GS to be the biggest, fattest, excuse made on this board in about a year. Low production, this and that, face it the car is old and tired and has never sold well past 1998. Excuses, excuses. You mean to tell me they're redesigning it for it sell at the same rate?!?!. Please.
Oh, and just because you think Mercedes' image was made by the S-Class doesn't make it so. Yes it is a very important car, their most important sedan as far as image/prestige/engineering goes, but the SL is also a Mercedes-Benz legend and a even bigger one than the S-Class. Poof there goes another one of your theories. Tell me the SL is about isolation. The E-Class dates back for a similar amount of time and has never been about "isolation" or the back seat.
Nobody is saying Mercedes is sporty like BMW, but traditionally a Mercedes was only second to them in this aspect, until the Japanese (not Lexus) made their run on BMW and surpassed Mercedes in the sport department. AMG has been around since 1967 and is also part of the MB legend.
A Mercedes was always a road-worthy car, and they never prided themselves on isolation like Cadillac, Linc and now Lexus.
You seemed to be confused about isolation and comfort. A Mercedes has always been a fine compromise between comfort and dynamics like a Jaguar, not a rolling isolations chamber like Caddy and Linc (used to be) and Lexus' 38K Camry. Why don't you read up on the Maybach and S600 then post. These cars are not about total isolation, but simply a blend of comfort and roadability. They most definitely are about "driving pleasure", with 493hp and active suspension is more fun than the current LS430 will ever be.
M
In the US, few S's are chaffeur driven. In Asia, many S's are chaffeur driven. So MB has to prioritize both driver comfort and rear passenger comfort.
In any case, I definitely agree that the E and the ES are not in the same class. The GS and the E are much more comparable, in terms of drivetrain, engine choices, features, and purpose.
GS sales were respectable until the past couple years. A solid 2000 to 2500 per month or so. Not as many as the E or the 5, but much better than the RL or M45 (well, M sales were doomed from the start, since it only offered a V8 and a design near the end of its cycle.)
Mercedes has just shown the CLS55 AMG.
I think I like this...........
What does the board think of the CLS? Designman, you especially.
M
BTW, the new SLK is a major improvement IMO. Could not STAND the original. Harm Lagaay, design director of Porsche just retired and was replaced by Michael Mauer, head designer of the original SLK. As a designer, I can tell you unequivocally that there is no artist who can produce junk-free work, even the best of them. Heck, even Lennon/McCartney and Picasso spit out dubious stuff. I'm hoping we've seen the worst of Mauer with the SLK Mike, be careful now, this is my brand you working on here. Don't go Bangle on me. Gotta believe Porsche is one place where this can't happen serious knock on wood.
Merc, think I've had somewhat of a catharsis with the 6-series and heaven knows I've hit it hard. Will explain at a later date. Have to think this through. No, this will not happen with 5 and Z4.
"I'M walkin' here!!!"
-Ratso Rizzo, from Midnight Cowboy
;-)
That Mercedes looks impressive..Very nice sleek design. If the new S Class looks anything like that I'll be sorely tempted to shell out the extra $$$ and get one..When will we see a picture?
I don't understand all this debate about the ES vs E Class..The Mercedes counterpart is the C-Class not the E.. Lexus presents this car as their entry model. There is nothing remotely exciting about that car. It does its job as an isolation chamber very well. .I think the Lexus counterpart to the E is the GS...I hope the upcoming GS is an substantial improvement over the last one..They had the right idea, but just need to make it more sporty.
A sidebar..Is there really any difference between Premium Gasoline and "V-Power" which was recently released by Shell? It claims to contain more cleaning agents than standard gasoline..How often do these engines need a fuel treatment? I normally use Chevron Techron once a year since my driving is mostly City...
SV
Thanks!
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
I guess you're not aware that the "lowly Chevy" engine on Ward's Top 10 is GM's 4.2L I6. You say you didn't bash the 4.2L I6, but read your own words, especially the bolded part.
I said the MB 3.2 3-valve is behind time and under-powered; that's a position you and Merc1 seem to dispute.
Don't take it up with me or Merc, complain to Ward's Top 10 Engines.
What do gearing and rear axel ratio have anything to do with that? You can make gearing and rear axel ratio choices to optimize for 0-60 (which makes 0-60 a bad measure for true performance), but as a consequence you have to compromise somewhere else due to the lack of power.
You seem to have answered your own question. Sometimes the car with faster 0-60 is due to shorter gearing. I don't know the gearing or rear axel ratios of the MB vs. Camry. I was wondering if possibly the Camry had shorter gearing to account for its faster times.
Are you suggesting the BMW 4.9/5.0 V8 is comparable to the MB 3.2? What exactly does your point have to do with anything here?
YOU claimed that BMW underrates its engines. I just showed you ONE example, the 5.0L BMW e39 M5 v8, where BMW is clearly NOT underrating its engines.
So you are more or less agreeing with me that the MB pedigree is about riding large in the backseat; so much for the sportiness claim ;-)
I agree with you on some points (the ones I don't mention in posts), but not on this one. Doesn't the S-class have an AMG version? That is not a chauffered car IMO.
Also, is there any point in comparing the Maybach to anything?
I'll be eagerly awaiting you to get back to me about the 6-Series. I got a chance to see one close up and personal over the holiday, I'm still no fan of that truck lid, but it is a looker otherwise.
M
Lexus has no plans to kill off the GS or IS at the moment. They are aware of the critics of the previous car, and it will hopefully turn up the sport factor a lot. Lexus is going to be offering more powertrains as well. The IS and GS will most likely share their next generation plants with the exception of hybrid power, which at the moment anyway the IS isnt supposed to get. Toyota will have two all new V6s, a 3.0L 242hp, and a 3.5L 280-300hp engine. The IS will most likely be offered as IS300 and IS350 in NA form, where as the GS is supposed to be the GS300 and GS350GT, where the 3.5L will get an electric boost to as much as 450-500hp.
Lexusguy,
Well you know what I think of this car:
Absolutely gorgeous, possibly the best looking Mercedes-Benz ever.
The only BMW 2-door that truly pegs the style meter is this one:
...the M3. They nailed it with this car. Classic BMW proportions.
M
Merc1 - I find the new S design sketches as shown disappointing and much prefer the current model - assuming the sketches are real. The line on the sides is too much like Honda and to a certain extent Jaguar. A car that big has to be seen in person though. Personally I still think that is nothing but a modified sketch of a C. What's your thoughts?
As to the 6 series, a good friend got the convertible, and all I could say is that I was sure it drove incredibly. A pretty car it most certainly isn't.
designman - I don't think you can blame this whole thing on Bangle. He's just the instrument. Someone above him ordered a revolutioary change in BMW design trying to pur artwork and even sculpture into their car designs. Everytime I see that trunk it reminds me of an architectual column sticking out beyond a wall in your home. In a home it looks beautiful but on a car it looks ridiculous. Similarly the eyebrows belong on an artist's portrait not on a car. Someone had the thought of a design departure, probably or at least partially because MB departed from their tried and true designs with the S-class re-design in 1999. MB pulled their move from classic to a more athletic/sport look off beautifully. BMW moved into the art world. It's a disaster. Someone should pull the plug real quick. But decisions like that come from the top as well as from the designer. Plus someone beyond Bangle signed off on the cars before they went into production. The i-drive was supposed to be the icing on the cake but just turned out to be part 2 of the mistake.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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But definitely, MB used to have a reputation for boring, albeit reliable cars in the mid-range. It's when BMW started to hurt them in their core markets with the 5 and 7 series that they started to counter with some more sporty flair, and also attack BMWs core segment more decisively. I do remember when the 190 came out (I was a kid) it was a hot topic of discussion among grown ups whether it'd kill the MB image.
Mind you, I think MB still holds itself quite well. They have a different value proposition, and their cars articulate it effectively - it's an all around compromise, never trying to be the most fashionable, the sportiest, the anything, but merely showing all around balance and... something MB-esque, I don't know. There's not a single car in the MB line up I would not at least consider at all if I was shopping in its segment. And that's quite good, even if I might in the end not go for it. And there are not many brands I'd say that about, especially not about BMW these days.
Haven't seen it so I can't judge, but the styling ain't bad. Better than the CTS, although they definitely share a common theme.
I don't like the 6 styling at all. Whether from the front, rear, or side, it just doesn't do it for me. Looks out-of-proportion and awkward.
The styling of the Z4 is definitely awkward as well. Usually, when I see a car, a word comes to my mind... such as "sleek", "has presence", "cute", "elegant", etc. For both the 6 and the Z4, it's "funky".
On the other hand, the 5 looks okay.
BMW can't mess up the 3. There is already some stiff competition from the G35 and TL. If Lexus gets the next IS right, it really has the potential to hurt 3 series sales. Lexus has a much more recognized brand name than Acura or Infiniti, to steal away those otherwise BMW buyers who prioritize car "prestige."
With 7 series sales lagging, and the 5 getting a lot of new competition in a few months (RL, GS, M, STS, A6), the next 3 MUST be a winner for BMW, as it always has.
Well to be completely honest, some of the other MB sites that I read have actual spy photos of the car being filled up at a German gas station and I must say I'm completely put off by the new S-Class' design. The spy photos on this board aren't even close. The actual car looks like a baby Maybach, but worse imo. I can't post the pics here because they are copyrighted. Check out the Canadian MB (MBCanada.com) site. All I can say is OMG, Mercedes is about to goof up one of their best looking designs. Audi and Mercedes seem to think BMW is the target because they have both gone or are going in that direction with the new A6 and S-Class.
pablo_l,
I find this:
"They have a different value proposition, and their cars articulate it effectively - it's an all around compromise, never trying to be the most fashionable, the sportiest, the anything, but merely showing all around balance and... something MB-esque, I don't know."
to be very much what Mercedes has always been, only to add to that they do strive to be the safest and used to do the same as far as durability was concerned. An engineer's car and that worked for years and years. Problem now is that others have caught up in most of those areas, so they need to go back to their roots and do what they used to best, quality, safety, durability, reliability and intelligent, but simple (very important point) engineering brilliance. Their door-mounted seat controls (just one example) set the industry standard for ease of use and simplicity, the rest of the car needs to be designed in the same manner.
M
There is one in the Aug issue of Car and Driver. The Mercedes CL600 beat that overweight and awful looking Bentley Continental GT and the gorgeous Aston-Martin DB9, but lost to the Ferrari 612 Scagletti.
A Mercedes coming in second to a Ferrari, but beating Aston and Bentley is the way it is supposed to be. The 612 costs double the price of the CL600. The CL600 outperformed the 2 British cars and stayed with a few ticks of the Ferrari. Mind you this was the regular 493hp CL600, not the CL that C&D tried to, but couldnt' get....the 604hp CL65 AMG.
This only shows what I've stated all along, Mercedes best cars are the CL, SL, and S-Class. The only S-Class that gets beat in a comparo is the S430, not the S500 and above. The S600 handled (beat) the BMW 760Li in their June 2003 issue with ease.
Mercedes' upper range cars rarely take second, and when they do it is almost always to the most expensive and exclusive cars in the world. Why I love Mercedes-Benz....this type of showing makes the image....none of the other "regular" luxury brands we discuss here...Lexus, BMW, Audi, Jaguar can contend with Ferrari, Aston-Martin or Bentley.
They may forever stay in BMW's shadow at the 3-Series/C-Class level and the E-Class, though it outsells the 5-Series in every country worldwide, won't unseat the 5-Series when it comes to pure enthusiasts.
[EnD RaNt]
M
but the rear:
is gawd-awful. Imo, this could have been a beautiful car if it were not for that stupid trunklid.
There is something elegant about a luxury car in White:
Though not necessarily in this case. Gulp(!) I still find the 6 to be an "interesting" car. The convertible more than the coupe.
Lexusguy,
I'm not sure if BMW intended for the 6-Series to compete with the Mercedes CL. There is a bit of a price/size difference there. BMW took the safe route and place the 6-Series between the CLK and CL in both price and size. Time will tell if this was smart. Mercedes kinda did the samething with the CLK, somewhat competeing with the 3-Series on the low end (like in size) and cars like the SC430 and XK8 on the high end (engines, features). Only the CLK offers a V6 and a V8, with everyone else it is either a 6 or an V8, but not both. I think this is why the CLK has been so successful in what has been a very tough market for coupes. Nobody else seems to be able to keep their coupes selling past those first two years and the previous CLK was an in-demand car for all 5 model years, especially the Cabriolet versions.
Luxury/sport GT Coupes don't always fit into the strictly defined categories like sedans usually do I've noticed. Actually the CL was facelifted pretty extensively for 2003, mainly interior upgrades, which were needed.
M
By the way - you are hard on Lexus - I think you know that - but I've always found you pretty honest and frank on MB despite your favoritism there.
BMW sales up 17% in June - bad designs and all. But somehow I think a true model by model comparative to prior year would not bear that out. The X3 though should be combined with regular 3 series sales because I'm sure it has taken some 3 series sales away.