High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · July 2004

"The RX330 also had adaptive headlights first, and BMW and Audi copied that. Does M-B even offer that feature yet? I dont think that they do."

This is incorrect my friend. For MY 2004 both Lexus (RX330) and BMW (3 and 5-Series) both offer/ed these lights. Mercedes offers them also for the 2004 MY on the E-Class.

Now if you mean that Lexus was actually the first one to have this feature to go on sale (last summer) then you'd be right because the 2004 3, 5 and E didn't go on sale until a few months later.

In either case BMW had the feature on sale in Europe either before or at the same time Lexus did over here.

M

jrock65 · July 2004

The Japanese probably get all the cool stuff before we get them here in the states. I bet the Celsiors in Japan get the gizmos before we get them here in the LS. Happens with all the electronics... the latest plasmas, fanciest DVD players, etc.

------
They don't need to build a 500hp/50mpg car. I don't think they've even said that's possible. If they can build a 400hp/30mpg car, they'll be on to something. That's still twice the gas mileage of any other 300-400 hp car out there.

Makes sense in Asia/Europe, where gas is $6 to $8 per gallon.

merc1 · July 2004

My point about a 400hp Lexus is that here whenever high-performance is mentinoned in the same breath with BMW or Mercedes it is seen as a meaningless waste and on this board it has even been called "dangerous" because of the performance attainable, yet if Lexus does it it will be seen as the second coming of the automobile and because of the MPG gains more useful. This new found fuel economy doesn't negate the first criticism. Four-hundred hp is still four-hundred hp and if it a BMW M5 is pointless then a 400hp Lexus is too, because the Lexi-based theory teaches that neither would be usable in the real world of driving on real roads. Far too much power than anyone needs and is far to dangerous.

M

brightness · July 2004

The real innovators are actually the parts/sub-system guys. I doubt there's any paid engineer at MB or Lexus that worked on inventing either keyless entry or laser/radar cruise. It's the sub-system/auto-parts companies that come up with new ideas and new products and try to convince carmakers to integrate them. Even system as major as Vehicle Dynamic Control was invented/refined by Continental-Teves, Delphi and etc.; BMW happened to be the first one to integrate it into their cars.

It should therefore not be surprising that MB may proceed Lexus in integrating certain new systems both because they are more willing to pay the price-premium to be the early adopter (there could be an exclusive deal for 12 months, for example), and because Lexus is more likely to wait and make sure the system works before adopting it (e.g. BMW's adoption of i-Drive, which is a Microsoft "innovation"). MB fans used to proudly proclaim that Germans were reluctant to integrate new gagetry because they wanted to wait till it can be sure that the gadgets work; those were the days when MB was known for quality automobiles. Somehow nowadays in the eyes of the MB fans, Lexus's use of proven electronics are called gadgetry-happy, while MB and BMW's adoption of non-performing or subpar new technology are called innovative. Go figure.

brightness · July 2004

MB may actually have been the first one to announce the turning head lights; however, it was the last to bring actual car to the market. All three of them just integrate some third party turning headlights. MB's long delay between announcement to actual car on the lot is indicative its problems. In most industries, the nonperformers are most likely to show off vaporwares for months ahead of actual product launch, simply as a stop-gap measure to slow down customers going to rivals in droves.

brightness · July 2004

When people buy a Mercedes-Benz they expect perfection and only that, thus when a Benz has a problem (however minor or slight) it gets dinged on these surveys.

That is not the reason why they get bad results in those surveys. The JDP survey is based on the count of number of problems per thousand vehicles, not silly questions like "are you happy with your new car?" both JDP and CR give out detailed questionaires in categories as to where the problems are. It's not about whether their leather has a blotch or panel gap size or any such subjective measures; a transmission/engine/electronics problem is a problem regardless what car they are dealing with, unless of course if you think a new MB is for looking pretty sitting in front of the house or the dealer's mechanical shop.

lsc · July 2004

Neither BMW, Lexus nor MB invented the idea. The idea was invented by Tucker, an American decades ago.

MB has always been the leader in safety technology.

Lexus is the leader in ergonomics.

The Germans was content with high prices and austere interior with stiff leather seats until Lexus came around.

merc1 · July 2004

". All three of them just integrate some third party turning headlights. MB's long delay between announcement to actual car on the lot is indicative its problems."

What delay are you talking about? All three companies brought this tech out for the 2004 MY.

"The JDP survey is based on the count of number of problems per thousand vehicles, not silly questions like "are you happy with your new car?" both JDP and CR give out detailed questionaires in categories as to where the problems are. It's not about whether their leather has a blotch or panel gap size or any such subjective measures; a transmission/engine/electronics problem is a problem regardless what car they are dealing with...."

I believe that is what I stated. I wasn't speaking about the Mini - cupholders and Hummer - gas mileage stuff. The dependability survey is where the real meat is.

It is true that nowadays most of the electrical innovation comes from suppliers, but when Mercedes did the really basic innovating they became famous for they did most of it them themselves, like in the area of safety. Mercedes and Bosch today usually work 50/50 on things, both sending some of their engineers to each other's companies to work on an idea so it isn't all supplier based in the least. Not sure what Toyota does.

M

jrock65 · July 2004

"When people buy a Mercedes-Benz they expect perfection and only that, thus when a Benz has a problem (however minor or slight) it gets dinged on these surveys."

I really don't agree with this either, that somehow MB owners are more sensitive to problems.

In fact, if there were a bias (which I really don't think there is), it would be AGAINST Lexus. Sure, MB is still king of the hill, but when it comes to reliability, Lexus is the generally known king. And it is becoming more generally known that MB's have reliability problems. Many people buy Lexus's because of their reputation as trouble-free cars. Hence, a Lexus owner may be even more prone to reporting something minor as a "problem". In any case, I don't think this bias is enough to make a statistical difference.

"Far too much power than anyone needs and is far to dangerous."

Well, I don't know about anyone else in this board, but nothing about luxury cars has anything to do with "need." Why draw the line at 400hp? Why not 250hp? Are our lives so much better because we can go 0 to 60 in 5.5 seconds, rather than 6.5 seconds? I have no problems with MB and BMW making 400hp cars, and I got no problems with Lexus making them either.

I remember the first LS400 had 250hp. Now, 250hp is what many midsize family sedans have. If 400hp is going to be the norm among ultra lux cars, then by all means...

jrock65 · July 2004

400hp seems paltry compared to the 612hp/738 torque S65. I can't even imagine what the power delivery feels like in that beast. Not that I'll ever get to drive one.

merc1 · July 2004

Totally disagree with that. On price alone certain Benz's owners would expect perfection and surely Mercedes has been seen as the top brand longer than anyone else. Mercedes sells more 50K+ cars than anyone else and some of those buyers expectations are probably higher than a person that just worked their way up to an ES330. I also think Lexus' service practices alone would make a Lexus owner less apt to report a problem that a dealership snubbed in a timely fashion with very little if any inconvience to the owner. All types of things weigh in when people fill out these things. I'd guess we'd have to conduct another live survey to see which theory is right??

That said, a bias againt Lexus on a reliability survey? That is far to surreal to me to even entertain that thought. They're they survey king and have by far (on these boards) the most survey chasers of any brand ever devised. This group lives to fill out surveys.

M

jrock65 · July 2004

Your notions sound more surreal to me.

Yes, I believe that someone who buys an ES330 has more expectations when it comes to RELIABILITY, than someone who buys a C-class or E-class (which make up the bulk of MB sales), BECAUSE of Lexus's greater reputation for reliability than MB.

merc1 · July 2004

I say the same thing so we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is no way I'll buy any bias against Lexus on a survey when the majority of these buyers live for surveys. If the bulk of MB buyers survey responses came from C and E Class buyers then the S and SL wouldn't be mentioned, but they are, especially the S. I think these buyers expectations are higher than the RX and ES buyers, and are on par with the LS.

M

jrock65 · July 2004

Same with someone buying an LS or an S class. I'd guess that someone buying an LS is more discriminating about reliability than someone buying an S class. Even though the S costs more, the LS has a higher reputation, and hence higher expectations, when it comes to reliability.

merc1 · July 2004

Even if that were completely true in every case of each buyer, where does the service factor come in? I mean isn't a Lexus buyer used to fast and convient service more apt to overlook a minor problem than a Benz buyer with the same minor problem who's dealer ticked him off by not handling it properly the first time or in a timely manner? This type of scenario doesn't make a difference? I think it does.

M

jrock65 · July 2004

"There is no way I'll buy any bias against Lexus on a survey when the majority of these buyers live for surveys."

Ahh... I can picture them now. All those Lexus owners waiting by their mailboxes to see when the the JDpower or CR survey would come.

Yep, we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I said, I don't think any such bias will be statistically significant anyway.

merc1 · July 2004

I can indeed picture some of the survey worshipers on Edmunds awaiting them for real.

M

jrock65 · July 2004

"Even if that were completely true in every case of each buyer, where does the service factor come in? I mean isn't a Lexus buyer used to fast and convient service more apt to overlook a minor problem than a Benz buyer with the same minor problem who's dealer ticked him off by not handling it properly the first time or in a timely manner? This type of scenario doesn't make a difference? I think it does."

Well, hard to say how much of an effect this has. Are MB dealers that bad?

merc1 · July 2004

"Well, hard to say how much of an effect this has."

That is my point.

"Are MB dealers that bad?"

Of course all of them aren't (just making a point in contrast to Lexus') and most are pretty good at customer relations, but I still see where a few vary greatly according to MB owners. The problem with Mercedes is that some of their dealers here go back 40 years plus and they are used to doing things "their" way. Lexus on the other hand has far greater control over their dealers since they all had to agree to certain things to get the franchise. Advantage: Lexus. Don't get me wrong this isn't Lexus' fault or problem its BMWs, VWs and Mercedes.

M

designman · July 2004

"But following what a leader introduces successfully is everyday business as far as I am concerned."

Excellent point. It actually transcends "everyday business", it's the manifest destiny of technology. Innovation cannot be held hostage. If the whole world doesn't hitchhike onto "innovation", then it's not innovative. The world would be nowhere if Henry Ford's accomplishments were somehow held hostage by FMC. As the players in the auto industry sometimes grope to stay on the leading edge of technology, the Japanese are great at separating the wheat from the chaff.

lexusguy · July 2004

I've always been curious about something, why cant the Germans manage to put in-dash CD changers in their cars? That is something that Nissan and Honda were doing 10 years ago, and yet just recently Audi managed to actually put one in a few of its cars, and cars that just came out like the Taureg still have it shoved in the trunk. Whats up with that?

BTW, Lexus has added a radar guided cruise control along with its "pre-collision" system this year to the LS.

ljflx · July 2004

Can you imagine a world like this board where everyone criticized the guy who follows suit. There would never be improvement and there would never be any change at the top. There'd be stagnation as there was in the luxury segment until Lexus came along and caused everyone to scramble. The hardcore German enthusiasts have a real hard time with that last sentence. But the real buyers are so glad there is so much choice now.

merc1 - you read so much into the power issues. The comments always were that with cars that go 0-60 in 6 seconds on 290-320HP and with great torque - why is there a "real" need for anything more. We are talking main stream cars here not exotic specialty cars. We also were saying pour the investment money into things that produce a better and safer car rather than even more excess power. Need should have a higher priority than excess. In the big cities wherte 90% of these cars are sold you can't use that power very often anyway. What percent of MB's or BMW's sold do you think have 400-600HP. Maybe 5% and that is a real stretch. So to portray that power as brand representation is one heck of a statistical flaw.

Lexus reliability - Now it's amazing to me to hear that the majority of Lexus buyers are people who can't wait for a survey to come in the mail and answer them. Merc1, my friend that's a comment that I'd wish I could take back if I were you. The Lexus stellar reliability level is what it is - the envy of the industry. Just accept it and move on rather than trying to defeat it with silly comments that make you look bad. Today if I were an MB buyer I would fully expect reliability to be a problem no matter what car I bought. On the other hand I'd be a lot harder on Lexus than I would be on MB because I'd be expecting perfection or near perfection. I expected it in 1995 and got it with my first LS (which had over 250k miles on it when I last checked with my buddy who bought the car at lease end). I expected it in 1998 with 2 vehicles and got it, in 2001 with 3 and got it and I expect it now and have gotten it so far. Most - as in 90+% of Lexus buyers expect the same and thus will naturallly be more prone. not less, to report anything wrong. Common sense rules here.

Brightness - great points.

Lexusguy - The RX was a major Lexus success and continues to be the class definer and leader. I tend to take it for granted and forget how it led the development of a whole new segment.

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc:

Lexus does have a radar based cruse as well as Laser based, I have the laser based system and it works great.

You really should go drive a new LS430 ultra

lexusguy · July 2004

I really dont understand such cars as the S65. There was a review of the Mazda 3, it may have even been on this site, where the writer was talking about racing a CL600 through some back roads, and the CL would roar past on the straights only to be beaten repeatedly by the Mazda at every corner. That much horsepower in a 2.5 ton car is just dangerous and stupid.

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc:

I don't recall anyone saying 400hp is far to dangerous or far too much?...

If Lexus does it, the hybrid will make it as economical to run as an underpowered cheap Mercedes.

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc:

I can only speak for myself..But..If I had done my research and purchased an S Class Sedan, I would know I should expect electrical problems my expectations would be relatively low....

On the other hand I bought an LS and expect the car to be completely trouble free and expect to get GREAT SERVICE in the unlikely event anything does happen to it...MY EXPECTATIONS ARE VERY HIGH...I would whine like crazy on every survay I would find if my LS EVER left me stranded anywhere.

lexusguy · July 2004

I can see your point. To a certian extent I'm willing to put up with my XKRs frequent problems because its a Jag and thats to be expected. Week long service department stays are also tbe because parts have to be imported from England frequently. If my LS ever needed to sit in the service department for a week or more, I wouldnt be to happy about it. Then again, I dont depend on my XK as a daily driver, so its not as much of a hassle when it has issues.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

As I remember it, Toyota displayed SmartKey technology in 2000 when the LS430 debuted, it just didn't make it to the US production version. I do remember reading somewhere that the Japanese Celsior has had it since then, anyone know this for sure? Either way, despite what some people say, I would hardly call Lexus introducing SmartKey technology 3 years after Benz as "copying" much like I wouldn't call adaptive headlights that BMW, Benz now use as "copying".

Most of the times different companies are innovating similar products simultaneously. This is a point soo many of you miss on a regular basis.

michael_mattox · July 2004

That is exactly my point...You bought your Jag with certain expectations. It is tough to complain about it when you knew what to expect.

Having given further thought to Mercedes, I think I should amend my comments about people not having large expectations. There are probably many, if not most of It's new owners who buy it based on it's image of quality, they are surprised when they have problems and do rate it harshly in the survays...However that would also be true of all LS owners.

lexusguy · July 2004

I still report the problems Ive had with my XKs in the CR survey though.

footie · July 2004

Since we aren't privy to the raw data in the surveys, or the folks that are sending them in, or the professionals that are actually capable of interpreting them realistically and statistically for their paying customers (the car companies), almost any kind of commentary attempting to justify the results is pure guesswork.

For example, in an earlier post it was said:

"I mean isn't a Lexus buyer used to fast and convient service more apt to overlook a minor problem than a Benz buyer with the same minor problem who's dealer ticked him off by not handling it properly the first time or in a timely manner? This type of scenario doesn't make a difference? I think it does."

The implication is that this poster's scenario was possible and wasn't accounted for in the survey. And, that revealing of this insight should make everyone wonder if the surveys weren't somehow misleading us all.

The insight is speculative and unsupported by real information.

I haven't seen any survey data to indicate that Lexus service is fast or convenient in general, or faster and more convenient than other brands. If that's true that might be why they get kudos. But there is data that says that Lexus customes are more satisfied with their dealer experieces than Benz.

There's no data that I am aware of that says that makes the Lexus owners more or less likely to overlook a problem.

More importantly there's no data that I am aware of that says that Lexus and Benz have the same problems.

There is data that says Benz owners report between 2 and 3 times more problems. With the Poisson distribution that tends to apply to these kinds of defects, the probablities that Benz owners will see their dealers for problems many times during ownership is MUCH higher than Lexus owners.

With 2 to 3 times more problems, I would be surprised to find that these are the same kinds of problems as the Lexus owners experience, but happening at 2 or 3 times the frequency.

merc1 · July 2004

"I've always been curious about something, why cant the Germans manage to put in-dash CD changers in their cars? That is something that Nissan and Honda were doing 10 years ago, and yet just recently Audi managed to actually put one in a few of its cars, and cars that just came out like the Taureg still have it shoved in the trunk. Whats up with that?"

I'm going to surprise you and the board here, but Lenn probably remembers my positon on this from a few years back.........its pure arrogance and dissmissive behavior and/or the U.S. arms of the German luxury makers not having their parent's full attention in Germany. I've said for years they need to start tailoring their cars more to the US market when it comes to details like that.

Mercedes-Benz has one available in the 2003+ E-Class, but not on any other product. For years Mercedes-Benzes didn't have any in-dash CD players in any of their cars. The 2003 S-Class, CL and SL were the first ones to offer this along with the 2003 E-Class that has a single+ 6CD changer. Amazingly, astonshingly, help me out here...the 2004 C-Class, CLK and SLK still don't have an in-dash CD player of any type. The 2005 C-Class now has a single in-dash CD player. The 2005 CLK gets one as does the new 2005 SLK so Mercedes has managed to still come up behind the Japanese cars in this regard. Go figure.

Most BMWs have a single slot CD player now with a changer either in the glovebox or somewhere else, I honestly forget.

The most perplexing case is Audi. For 2004 all of their cars had a standard in-dash 6-disc CD player, but for 2005 they are going back in the glovebox! They did this is the name of style in the A8 I think and simply because the new A6's interior is so cluttered, a complete reversal of the 1998-2004 A6's interior.

The CL600 - "That much horsepower in a 2.5 ton car is just dangerous and stupid."

So when Lexus does it with the oh-so-often-hyped-upcoming LS500GT (Car and Driver says 500hp at least) it will be just as stupid and dangerous right? Where do we draw the line, 400, 500 or 600?? I guess wherever Lexus tops out at will be repectable and prudent. Please don't let me down by saying yes to that.

ljflx,

"merc1 - you read so much into the power issues. The comments always were that with cars that go 0-60 in 6 seconds on 290-320HP and with great torque - why is there a "real" need for anything more. We are talking main stream cars here not exotic specialty cars. We also were saying pour the investment money into things that produce a better and safer car rather than even more excess power. Need should have a higher priority than excess. In the big cities wherte 90% of these cars are sold you can't use that power very often anyway. What percent of MB's or BMW's sold do you think have 400-600HP. Maybe 5% and that is a real stretch. So to portray that power as brand representation is one heck of a statistical flaw."

Ok I'm trying to follow all of that double talk. First off, nobody said or portrayed that 400-600hp models represent anything even close to a majority of BMWs or Mercedes sold, where you got that from I don't know. Basically what you're saying otherwise is that 400+ hp is pretty much useless right? If so why is a rumored 500hp Lexus LS500 (a sedan not a specialty car) hyped like the second coming of the automobile? BTW, it doesn't take much money to develop more power in most cases. It is hardly a big resource drain.

" Now it's amazing to me to hear that the majority of Lexus buyers are people who can't wait for a survey to come in the mail and answer them."

Stay with me here, I meant on this board sir. Please lets not get into comments we wish we could take back from other posters. Where did anyone try to defeat or dispute Lexus' reliability? What one is allowed speculate in favor of Lexus and others aren't when it comes to how people fill out surveys? Come on now.

michael_mattox,

You mean to tell me they have both a radar-based and a laser-based cruise control system on offer at the same time? Didn't know that. Doesn't make much sense either if that is true, I don't know. I do know that a radar-based system is superior. You'll love this...on some Sundays I check out the lots here and the Lexus dealer here is moving to a new location (read bigger) and he has not a single LS430 or any type on his lot, not a one. Plenty of SC430s and GX470s but no LS430s. Business is good in luxurycarland.

M

merc1 · July 2004

You mentioned the S65 AMG earlier, I'm not sure if that model is coming to the U.S. However the SL65 AMG has just been released. Price you ask.....$179,720. HP: 604, Torque: 738 lb-ft, gas guzzler tax: 3K. Pure, glorious excess.

You other Lexus guys will love this. The 2005 SL joins the 2003 S, CL, and E with a DVD-based Nav system. The 2005 C, SLK and CLK also get DVD navs. Gee whiz they're trying to get there.

M

brightness04 · July 2004

On price alone certain Benz's owners would expect perfection and surely Mercedes has been seen as the top brand longer than anyone else.

Wrong on both counts. People pay big bucks and expect perfection in return for their money are buying Lexus. Over the past decade, Benz has become synonymous with big expensive liability (not reliability ;-) While buyers of an ES330 might be an upward mobile young professional who have to have the car for commute, the buyer of the top of the line S600 more often than not don't even drive the car themselves; some buy them just to have them sit in the garage.

BTw, Benz has hardly ever been the top brand. Rolls Royce command the top of the snob-appeal toten pole; that's why Benz has to revive the Maybach brand after half of century of hiatus.

merc1 · July 2004

I'm done with the who buys what expecting this and that discussion. There is no way to know what every buyer expects etc. etc. That bit about the S600 is complete and utter nonsense. How in the world would know what most S600 owners do with their cars? I don't recall seeing anyone but the driver behind the wheel whenever I've seen a S600.

Secondly Mercedes-Benz was indeed the top car as far as reality goes. Rolls-Royce might have been the top "brand" name, but their cars were 20 years behind the average Mercedes up until Vickers finally developed a modern car in 1998 - the new Arnage and Silver Spur and even those cars would get their hood ornaments handed to them by a Mercedes S600 of the day. Back even further in the day the Mercedes 600 Pulman was also consider the best car in the world, over Rolls-Royce. I see nothing from Rolls that even competed with the legendary SL and SLRs of the 50's either.

Mercedes-Benz put everyone else on shelf for years as a mass manufacturer of quality cars until Toyota got stronger using their TPS system. This is common knowledge, look it up if you don't believe me. In mass market luxury cars MB was the undisputed leader. Period.

Only rich people who wouldn't even consider another brand of car thought a Rolls was a superior car to a Mercedes, everyone else knew better. Lexus folk knock Mercedes for riding on a past reputation and Rolls-Royce was more guilty of that than Mercedes has ever been. A superior car in a Rolls, I think not......it surely wasn't in the 70s, 80s or 90s. An 70s Rolls was a nicely leathered and wooded antique of a car and a complete mess, ditto for the 80s and 90s until 1998.

Mercedes reviving Maybach doesn't have anything to do with who lead in the past. Maybach is part of Mercedes' heritage anyway.

M

livinbmw · July 2004

The ES300 is at such an extreme low of the luxury segment and the RX330 represents such a large portion of Lexus' sales that I can't totally relate to toyotas high-line brand as a top tier luxury make.

they're a tweener

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc:

Good Post..If I read it right you are pointing out how Rolls survived on it's reputation for quality for 20 years or more then the torch was passed to Mercedes who had actually had built better quality cars for years and it just took the public years to catch up...

Now the torch (the public perception of quality and style and prestige) is passing from Mercedes to Lexus...

lexusguy · July 2004

Lets try not to double post, mk? Are you saying that the C230 coupe isnt down market? Or how about the 325i, A4 1.8T, X-type 2.5? The ES prices above the Mercedes, and about the same as the Audi, BMW, and Jaguar. If you want to complain about where the ES comes from (and less than 25% of parts are shared) then Jaguar is just as guilty, if not more so. As for the RX, I dont see what the problem is there, either. Is the X3 going to ruin BMW as a top tier player? Lexus is a 15 year old company, and when you compare them to companies that have been around more than 100 years, I think they are doing pretty well for themselves. They've certainly shown Honda and Nissan how its done, and even die hard German buyers have to admit that Lexus has had a significant impact on how the Germans do business and design their cars. This SL will not have another 14 year cycle as the last one did. When Lexus fully establishes itself as a world market brand, their position should only go up.

Merc, I think 500hp is too much for a Lexus too. If there Germans werent in this all out war with each other to have their quad turbo V-12 be more powerful than the other guys quad turbo V-12, then Lexus wouldnt be building this car. I think Lexus is doing it because they have to offer something along the lines of the M, AMG, and S\RS cars to be taken seriously by enthusiasts.

pat · July 2004

is easy to do because the software here is particularly, err ... *quirky* (to be polite!).

Hitting Refresh after posting means your message reposts and it's very easy to never notice it since the last post you saw was yours, and the last post you still see is yours although it is there again.

This is something that has bitten almost all of us at one time or another, and if it hasn't happened yet, it probably will eventually.

Rather than fuss at someone for double-posting, why not explain that the thing to do is to use the "Recent Msgs" link on the page bar to redisplay a page after making a post. And the other thing to do is to use the Delete button to remove any duplicates.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

You do realize over 50% of BMW sales are made by their lowest product range-the 3-series? How do you see them as a top-tier brand?

livinbmw · July 2004

Certainly, these entry level type models don't carry the same cache' as the "big dogs", but the lexus just doesn't seem to have the sturdiness or nimble driving performance as say a 3 series. Price is not the determining factor in my mind. And, true, the Jaguar is at least as guilty but probably more so. The RX330 carries a certain stigma to me because it is, in a way, a tall, fancy camry wagon. To have that vehicle as the anchor of their sales volume could mean that the brand is not having the over-all appeal that one might associate with a luxury buyer. Maybe, it's more of a market driven by Moms who don't want to look like moms in a minivan.

livinbmw · July 2004

How do I see BMW as a top-tier brand?
They have the finest model selection of sport sedans in the industry. And they don't have a problem building entry level vehicles that are clear cut leaders in the industry.

quemfala · July 2004

"Who came up with Navi systems? I'm not sure, but Japanese Navi systems are for the most part superior to Euro Navi systems."

I know that you're referring to "Nav" systems for cars, but give a little credit to the US Military and their suppliers. I think that's where the development of these systems began. And, we may as well give a little credit to the US taxpayer for funding the satellite systems supporting all of these Nav systems -- and, it's free to use. What a country!!
Life is Better at the Beach

lenscap · July 2004

I disagree with you on many counts. A Lexus is not as "sturdy" as a BMW? The 740iL in my family is nowhere near as sturdy as the GS300 and ES300 also in the family, despite costing a lot more.

Of course the Lexus will not have the same "nimble" performance as the BMW. It's not made to. But it does have superior quality, a nicer interior (IMO), superior navigation, better dealership experience, etc.

And the RX330 driven by moms who don't want a minivan stigma? A minivan can seat 7-8, the RX only 5. Lexus purposely did not add a third row because the vehicle is not aimed at moms. Moms use minivans to haul around kids for carpool and go out with the grandparents, something the RX wasn't designed to do and can't do.

Maybe your mind about the RX330 being a tall Camry will change in a few years when all Lexus models will be independent of Toyotas.

designman · July 2004

Uh oh, I sense the Germans have some fresh pitching here in Livinbmw. Hope you Lexus guys can get around on his pitches... seems like he's throwing some heat. It's about time, I think Merc needs a day off. Let's see if he can go at least five innings. Livinbmw, go right at them with the high hard one. These guys are tenacious!

;-)

kdshapiro · July 2004

Lexus makes nice all-around middle of the road vehicles. I can see why someone spending $70K on a vehicle would chose a Lexus LS430. But it is still boring and ugly.

The 7 series is a superior vehicle inside and out. BMW has to address the criticism of the i-drive, because with $70K perception is reality.

livinbmw · July 2004

Boy, I'd like to drive your two lexus' that are more sturdy than a 7. That's the only thing that would make me a believer. I've been in a lot of these models in question. In fact, I can't recall anyone ever claiming that any lexus has superior body rigidity or quietness compared to a BMW..... that's sturdiness to me. Let's get some other opinions here, please.

Furthermore, I must disagree that Lexus does not have an intention to provide competitve performance. Why the IS300 or GS? BMW is the segment leader in sport sedans and Lexus has certainly attempted to bridge the performance gap.

True, the RX does not have a 3rd rear seat, but it's a chick car and a clumsy handler. It's like a fancy livingroom on wheels.

sv7887 · July 2004

Quemfala,
You're quite right about the Military's GPS systems..It was built in the old Cold War days. The Soviets had a similiar system and the Europeans are planning one as well. This is probably the one innovation I can appreciate.

linvinbmw,
BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived. This has been discussed only a few posts ago..You've simply ignored the Success of the LS series in your discussion..This car consistently beats its' competition in every objective survey. Sturdiness? Please..A SIX year old LS400 was proven to be more reliable than a NEW 7 Series..When I bought my LS in 1992 it was ranked as the quietest car in the world. (I believe it was later supplanted by the A8..Not sure what the current ranking is..) Which leads me to ask..Have you ever driven a LS?

There are a library full of statistics to prove Lexus builds the most reliable car out there. I'll concede the handling point, as Lexus doesn't cater to that segement.

The RX series has established the smaller Luxury SUV..It was really the first SUV to drive more like a car..It's a best seller b/c of it's practicality. Lexus has done a good job of catering to the practical consumer needs. I think the release of the RX400H is a clear indicator of how Toyota spends it's R&D money rather than some overcomplicated iDrive system.

Toyota is currently one of the most profitable automakers out there..If BMW was so "upmarket" please explain the presence of a 1 Series and X3?

SV

maxhonda99 · July 2004

well, as I pointed out before the cheapest rung BMW the 3-series brings in over 50% of BMW sales. That must mean "To have that vehicle as the anchor of their sales volume could mean that the brand is not having the over-all appeal that one might associate with a luxury buyer."

maxhonda99 · July 2004

Also, have you noticed how the LS430 outsells the entire 7-series range?

High End Luxury Cars

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles