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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "I can't recall anyone ever claiming that any lexus has superior body rigidity or quietness compared to a BMW..... "

    Have you ever seen anyone claim a Lexus isn't sturdy?

    Look at the safety statistics, the long term durability of the body and associated hardware. Wow! the Lexus family sure seems sturdy from everything I have read.

    And the quietness part? Gimme a break. We all know who makes quieter cars.

    "True, the RX does not have a 3rd rear seat, but it's a chick car and a clumsy handler. It's like a fancy livingroom on wheels."

    Wow! It's amazing how many men I see driving a RX330! They must really be women putting on a costume while driving the RX.

    "Chick car". Did you forget something? Last time I rememeber the 3-series is a pretty big chick car.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    Oh, yeah. I've driven the LS. In fact, I spent quite a bit of my early career with Toyota and I appreciate what they do as a company, for sure. Reliability has nothing to do with sturdiness in the sense that I'm relating to. If that were the case than we'd rank the Corolla number one.

    Conceding the handling point is a HUGE concession. Then, you're saying better braking, steering, control, acceleration..........I'd contend that this is what driving is all about. Vehicles are for driving and if the BMW was that unreliable than they wouldn't compete at all much less be the top selling luxury make in the world.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The LS is an upscale Camry. The 7 is not an upscale 3 series. And things do go wrong and fall apart on these cars. Same as BMW. I'm not quite sure it matters, if the electric motor in the LS seats fail vs the electric motor in the sunroof on the 7. Same diff as far as I'm concerned. The wood for the base model LS is ugly. I find the front seats uncomfortable.

    They may have less defects and maybe a boring car is what people want at the $70K price point, but the 7 series will trounce the LS, if BMW addresses the issues. People I talk to, don't fault the 7 series mechanically, they fault the i-drive.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Reliability has nothing to do with sturdiness in the sense that I'm relating to. If that were the case than we'd rank the Corolla number one. "

    Then what are you relating to?

    -Body rigidity? Well, Lexus ranks right up there with Mercedes & BMW in safety ratings. Safety ratings are obviously a testement to body rigidity. Also, I have a uncle that owns both a ES300 with 130K miles and a 2000 LS400. The ES300 is still flex free and suspension soaks up bumps as well as day 1, not to mention steering & brakes operate flawlessly. Sure seems the body is still pretty tight to me after all these miles. The LS400, built like a tank, no flexing, even over the most potholed roads, can't hear any squeaks, rattles from anywhere. Is that sturdiness?
    How about how the hardware holdsup? 130K miles & all windows are original, all still work. In fact, everything in the car is still original and everything still works as good as when new.

    "Then, you're saying better braking, steering, control, acceleration.........."

    Check the stats buddy. The GS brakes better than the 5-series. the LS430 brakes better than the 7-series. The IS300 brakes better than the 3-series. Acceleration? Isn't the GS430 on par with a 540i? Or the LS430 quicker than the 745i/IL?

    "Vehicles are for driving". So than shouldn't everyone be driving a BMW? How is the RX330 squashing the X3&X5 combined? How is the ES330 outselling the 3-series sedan line-up? Or the LS430 outselling the 7-series by about a 2 to 1 margin? Huh...wait I can answer that. Not everyone has handling as their #1 priority!
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "but the 7 series will trounce the LS, if BMW addresses the issues."

    And what would happen if Lexus addresses the few issues that they do have?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Check the stats buddy. The GS brakes better than the 5-series. the LS430 brakes better than the 7-series. The IS300 brakes better than the 3-series. Acceleration? Isn't the GS430 on par with a 540i? Or the LS430 quicker than the 745i/IL?"

    No according to recent comparisions, the 7 series is the better handler, better accelerator, better braker and gets better gas mileage.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    The last comparo I read had the LS430 with slightly better braking and I think about the same acceleration time. Gas mileage? You know how accurate EPA figures are. Also, the BMW 745i is 18/26 vs. 18/25. wow! big difference. Thanks for the correction!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That's the thing about comparos they are all different, the last one I read, the 7 had a lead in the performance stats department. The reason the LS came out on top was because the testers felt the 7 series ride was too harsh and didn't like the i-drive and felt the LS interior is better (I don't think so).
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    ah yes, magazine comparos do vary based on many factors. The last C&D comparo of luxury cars was the last one I can remember. And the comparo did favor the other cars because the LS430 didn't have the sport suspension option, therefore the Ls430 only had the 17" wheels with H-rated tires, whereas the others had bigger and stickier tires.

    but of course, comparos also vary greatly based on weather, track conditions. And of course you could test the same cars on different days and get different measurements.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    My contention is not that Lexus has poor body rigidity or bad brakes. Only that the BMW is better. It's a better driving car. And, it leads the luxury segment in sales.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    "the seven series is superior inside and out to lexus"

    Hmmmmmmmm....

    Does it have superior Dependability?
    Superior Ride
    Superior comfort
    Superior Price (in terms of a lower price not higher)
    Superior sound system
    Superior Nav system
    Superior Emissions (in terms of Lower emissions)
    Superior safty systems
    Is it more quiet.
    Does it have a superior dealer and service network

    The above are all objective standards...More pleasing to the eye is a subjective standard....The 7 series does handle a little better if you like to drive very fast on twisty roads...
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    There's action in the BMW bullpen...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    My contention is not that Lexus has poor body rigidity or bad brakes. Only that the BMW is better. It's a better driving car. And, it leads the luxury segment in sales

    Talking of total hack job here. Livinbmw, you obviously need to re-check your facts on the 7 vs LS. Have you seen/heard/read of this comparo test back in Dec 2003 ?

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- _id=7359

    Guess who won ???

    How about sales YTD ? Guess who is wayyyyyy ahead of the 7-series in sales ??? Well, guess again !!!
     http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

    Now back to my rocking chair....
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Maybe you can explain why the 7 series sales are drying up in its second year of production. That says it all right there. They can't sell decently even with heavily subsidized leases right now. But your entitled to your theory and opinion.

    Designman - I always get a kick out of the big Camry label. The guy defeats his integrity before he leaves the starting gate. Sorry - this is just someone trying to stir things up and it's not worth it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Bases loaded, no outs and he has to face THESE two guys? Oac, I thought you were on the 2-week DL?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Trouble with the relief pitcher (ehm, Livinbmw) is that his curve ball doesn't curve as well, his fast ball is a little less fast, and his sinker pitch is not sinking and hence unable to keep the batters honest. Otherwise, he is a heck of a relief pitcher with three pitches, just not up to major league stuff (yet). Let's see how many outs he can record before the manager yanks him off the field and send him back to the minors.

    :)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    It's an exhibition game.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    That's what they call them here.... Where you sit outside on a covered porch and watch the sunset. Beautiful.... HAd the laptop going and thought I'd look in and see how things are doing on edmundsville. I'll check back in occassionally, just won't be able to read every post (simply skip to the end...)
  • sapparosapparo Member Posts: 68
    The 7 series is an electronic mess, typical poor german electrical systems design. This car is already tanking in resale compared to the other two big dogs. My cousin a master tech. who worked at Infiniti and Lexus for 10 years is leaving to go work for BMW. The japanese luxury brands were just routine maintenance, wear items and oil changes very few major issues.

    Much more lucrative to go work on the german brands which are well below japan in quality especially lousy electrical systems. All kinds of problems with their new models and recalls already. What's the X5 up to now 20? Don't look at surveys just go ask your nearest technician about reliability problems and you'll get all the data you need from the horses mouth.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Certainly we can debate the ideas and opinions presented without getting personal ... let's try that, okay?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “My cousin a master tech. who worked at Infiniti and Lexus for 10 years is leaving to go work for BMW… Much more lucrative to go work on the german brands…”
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What were you trying to post/attach the other day that was driving you crazy?

    You have to read that post better. He means lucrative in a negative way. So I think he struck the guy out.

    Now for fun - it should be interesting to see Clemens and Piazza tonight. I hope we get a conference on the mound.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    Funny, a best buddy of mine is a technician at Lexus, he just bought a Z4, and he makes a ton of loot. He's says that Lexus' are boring. But, I'm not talking about fixing a car. I'm talking about driving a car. Driving, you know, what a car is made for. BMW is coming off of its third consecutive record month of sales in the US. Meanwhile, lexus is selling more SUV's than cars. My main point here, regardless of what opinions are of the 7 series and I-drive, is that toyota makes good vehicles and BMW makes cars that are great to drive.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Ljflx... I was trying to post my favorite Porsche interior. Everybody is always knocking Porsche interiors but when you pay the ransom they actually are quite spectacular IMO... full leather, carbon fiber and aluminum tech touches. I don't like wood on P-cars though.

    "You have to read that post better. He means lucrative in a negative way. So I think he struck the guy out."

    No, I meant Sapparo was batting!!

    I think we’ll see the stoic Piazza as usual.

    Livinbmw... I have a BMW also so I know exactly where you’re coming from. What these Lexus guys may not understand is that some BMW lovers will do anything for the ride, even if it means sacrificing reliability. Doesn’t bother me though when someone says my cars suck because my purchases are well-calculated and my wife and I know exactly what we want. Can’t tell you how much sass I put up with… people in other forums who say Boxsters (another one of my cars) aren’t real Porsches etc. No matter. These forums are funny, fun and often informative. Enjoy your car, but as I said before, this Lexus crowd is tough to debate, but good guys.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    livinbmw,
      Perhaps you've ignored the SUV craze that has all manufacturers running to take advantage of..Even Porsche of all nameplates has a SUV..Lexus would have to be stupid not to capitalize on the market. I still own a 1992 LS400 and have experienced few issues with the car..
      As for calling the LS an overpriced Camry..The LS was designed specifically for the US market and released later in Japan..It took 6 yrs and $1 Billion to develop that car. (Did any other Lexus owner get that email?) That car singlehandedly changed the dynamics of the whole Luxury car industry.
      As for Handling, I'd agree the BMW turns better, but I haven't driven a new 18" LS..But the braking stats and acceleration stats are comparable if not better. I know Lexus cars offer a quieter and more comfortable ride. If Lexus cars are so boring, then why would anyone buy them? You ought to consider this before you make such blanket judgements.

    What exactly is a driving car? IMO an ideal driving car is one that caters to the consumer's need. A Lexus does that nearly perfectly..The majority of buyers aren't going to race them on the autobahn..For practical daily driving, it doesn't get better than Lexus.

    (Designman, it doesn't help the pitcher when they're facing guys like Manny Ramirez.Lol)

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The real funny part of all this is the labels people put on things. BMW can make a car every bit as quiet and great riding as an LS430 tomorrow if it chose to. It's not its mantra so it's not going to happen. Similarly Lexus can do the same thing the other way around if it wanted to. It will tweak cars like the LS430 to more handling in the future (and maybe even offer a true sport version) but it will always err on the side of quietness and spectacular ride. That's its mantra and that is what it's customers want. Lexus has toyed with handling so far with the IS and people I know who have that car say it outhandles a 3-series. But the 3-series is real adept anyway and a much better looking car. Lexus didn't get it right all the way around and made the interior too cheap. I am curious to see what they do with the next GS. Supposedly your favorite company - Porsche - defined its driving dynamics. If I were Lexus I would have aimed more at the E-class than the 5-series. But BMW is going to be quite vulnerable with that new 5-series design in the next few years and there are several Japanese cars gunning for them now.

    The Boxster is every bit a Porsche to me and a great looking car. If I was 20 years younger I'd buy it.

    SV7887 - perfectly stated.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You mean this one:

    https://usalexus.programhq.com/lxprn/main.asp

    I think the IS in that same e-mail looks real good.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually yes to all for the 7. Having spent oodles of time in both recently, the 7 leads in the subjective areas IMO of looks/interior, and the subjective areas of performance. Harsh ride for some is soft ride to others. The LS430 has been described as floaty, if that is what you like.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The driving dynamics of the 7 and LS are debatable, but if you honestly think iDrive is better for Navigation than the Lexus system, there is something terribly wrong with you. Lexus' system is the best in the industry, with Acura a close second. Lexus has been offering touch screen, DVD based Navigation systems since '98. What did BMW have in 98? Nothing. Livinbmw is obviously so blindly devoted to BMW as the do-no-wrong, greatest fluffy cloud pink bunnies and flowers company in the world that there is no real point in serious debate. I will admit Lexus is not strong in certain areas, but things like quality of materials, and electronics they crush BMW. If you think EVERY car and EVERY thing BMW does is faultless, your off in la la land.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Can a Mercedes "fanatic" say something here? For the record I like Mercedes, Audi and BMW in that order. BMW used to be my #2 car.

    I'm reading this debate and it is even more pointless than the Lexus vs. Mercedes debate. Why you ask? Because BMWs aren't about what Lexus are about and vice versa.

    A BMW person mentions sturdiness, which I define as solidity and the way the car feels driving down a bumpy road and/or lack of body/chassis flex when you pull out of the driveway that has the extreme slant or dip.....the Lexi respond with "a 1996 LS400 was found to be more reliable than a new 7-Series". Do you all not see where these two statments or points aren't even close to being related. A car can be "sturdy" or sturdily built physically, doesn't mean it is reliable. BMW and Lexus two polar opposites. No need for debate.

    Audis have a spectacular "build" but they are the least reliable of the German luxury brands.

    I read above the 7-Series sales are "drying up" in its second year of product. Wrong and mostly hype. The actual numbers:

    June 2004/YTD 2004/June 2003/YTD 2003 - 1628/8776/1577/9935

    While they are down 1159 units YTD 2004 compared to 2003, they did sell more in June of 2004 than they did in June 2003, I'd hardly call this "drying up" and the 7-Series is in its third year of product, not its second.

    Big difference between a "driving car" and a "driver's car", a Lexus can be whatever you want to call it like former, but the latter it isn't.

    M
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    First of all, personal attacks are not necessary.

    I don't give a hoot about the Nav, that has nothing to do with 0-60, braking, or road feel. I did say that with i-drive, perception seems to be reality, but I personally don't have a problem with it.

    I'm not sure what the point of your post is. To me the 7-series is the better vehicle in it's class. I like the looks better, I like the ride better, I like the interior better. Maybe the Ultra has more supple leather, but so what? The 7 sure isn't perfect, but neither is the LS. A number of different factors go into picking a car, but they are different for each of us. But I for one, don't want an Avalon on steriods, but I recognize some do.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    BMW owner says:

    "the seven series is superior inside and out to lexus"

    Lexus owner ask the following in their rebuttal regarding the 7-Series vs the LS430:

    Does it have superior Dependability?

    No the 7-Series doesn't, but I don't think anyone said it did. The comment about "inside and out" as most people would read it relates to design, not the always talked about reliability surveys.

    Superior Ride

    Nope. What about handling though? See how one group prioritizes the opposite quality in their luxury mount? BMW folk regard Lexi as riding like their not even touching the road with a corresponding lack of handling. Apples to Oranges.

    Superior comfort

    Highly debatable, and this depends on what the person looks at when judging comfort. Ride, quietness, seats etc. etc. all come into play here. For some the BMW will be a hard-riding noisy car, and the Lexus like riding in an Amana, Apples to Oranges here.

    Superior Price (in terms of a lower price not higher)
    Superior sound system
    Superior Nav system

    I'm yawning at these three sorry.

    Superior Emissions (in terms of Lower emissions)

    What? This is noticeable to a buyer in what way? Does anyone really care either way? Neither car is a smoger.

    Superior safety systems

    Nope, the Lexus has a Mercedes style Pre-Safe system so Lexus would appear to be more advanced here. Not sure if that makes the LS superior overall in safety though, haven't seen the crash stuff on either. There are a lot of other factors here.

    Is it more quiet.

    Nope the 7 isn't, but it isn't a noise box either like some Lexus fans would lead you to believe it is.

    Does it have a superior dealer and service network

    What the heck does this have to do with someone saying the 7-Series is superior inside and out. This is a classic Lexi response, only the charts, graphs and customer service stuff is truly important.

    My point is that a BMW and Lexus debate at the 7-Series/LS level is pointless because the two cars practically bracket the segment in philosophy.

    M
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    People I talk to, don't fault the 7 series mechanically, they fault the i-drive.

    It's not just that. i-drive has also contributed to making the 7 series interior an ergonomic mess, mainly because the shifter is right next to the window wiper shaft.

    Why is the shifter in such an awkward position? Because they had to make room for the i-drive.

    Aside from i-drive, weird interior ergonomics and the nasty Bangle butt, I prefer the 7-series to the LS.

    IMO the key to Lexus's success is that they do a few boring things really well (reliability, interior luxury and ergonomics) and don't screw anything up badly. The LS430 is the greatest boring car ever made, no doubt.

    Meanwhile, BMW makes what should be a superior car but then cripples it with odd engineering and design decisions.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes there is a similar situation going on now......but the biggest difference between Rolls and
    Mercedes and Mercedes and Lexus is that Mercedes isn't an outdated, poorly engineered car like
    Rollers were back then. Rollers lacked basic luxury car equipment like stability control, side airbags
    and HID lights...the list goes on. They didn't even get these things until 1998, when Mercedes had
    them at least 8-10 years prior. Mercedes might have a reliability problem, but they haven't
    compromised their other core strengths in the least, but you make a valid obeservation. The
    perception has changed in the minds of people who own Lexuses, but overall in this country and
    worldwide Mercedes is far from finished and they still have the prestige and clout to go with that
    position. Secondly, unlike Rolls-Royces up until 1998 or so, Mercedes still builds at lease some segment
    leading cars and no amount of reliability praise will overcome that when it comes to the SL, CL and
    upper S-Class models. Rolls didn't have anything but their rep, Mercedes still has the tech, engineering, and performance to back up the rep, only their reliability and early build on certain models faultered. Big difference from Rolls whose whole lineup was completely outdated.

    And nobody sighted would even think Lexus has even begun to overtake Mercedes in style, that is completely nuts. There isn't a truly stylish Lexus made, and just about everything Mercedes is dripping style, if nothing else in the typical Lexi's mind. Lexus has the dullest, most boringly styled group of cars in the industry!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    " If Lexus cars are so boring, then why would anyone buy them? "

    You are kidding right? Same reason why people buy every other boring car you see on the road. Reliability, comfort, practicality, room, etc. etc. the list goes on and on........none of this means that the car isn't boring or that it is particularly exciting. SUVs are the most non-fun things you can drive and people love them. Please don't try to imply that great sales mean that Lexi aren't boring.

    "BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived.

    Huh? You'll have to explain that one. FYI, the "7-Series" has been around since 1977.

    Please tell me when BMW as considered a 2nd tier brand, or not up to Lexus. The 5-Series alone put them, product/price/perception wise, higher than any of the Japanese brands until the LS430 went upmarket for 2001, only to meet the 7-Series which has been there for years.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "My contention is not that Lexus has poor body rigidity or bad brakes. Only that the BMW is better. It's a better driving car. And, it leads the luxury segment in sales."

    What does that have to do with durability, which you say is soo superior in a BMW?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    merc1,

    I think when sv7887 said "BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived." he meant when the redesigned 7-series came out in the late 80s. The 7-series before that was no competition to the S-class, which always had V8 offerings alongside 6-cylinders. The 7-series until the 90s only had a 6 and the 7-series of the early 80's was not playing in anywhere near the same ballpark as the Benz S-class.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    And about this ridiculous BMW vs. lexus thing. You know(and so does everyone else) that in terms of ride, handling, the S-class, 7-series, A8, Jag XJ8, LS430 are all very similar. I mean they all handle really well for their size and all stop well, and all ride well, and all are extremely quiet. The difference's are small, such as the LS430 handles a bit worse and rides a bit better and the 745i handles a bit better and rides a bit worse.

    As for livinbmw, I believe as someone else pointed out before, he is just simply here to light a fire! Maybe he's unemployed and has nothing better to do.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I'll go for that about the 7-Series vs the S-Class of that time period. BMW didn't really step up to the plate until 1988 when they introduced the V12 750iL.

    I have to disagree slightly with the notion that the differences aren't that much between these cars. On driving feel alone the BMW 7-Series is way different from the LS430. You're right, all the cars at this level do stop, go, ride and handle pretty well and some are better than others in certain areas here, but it is the way they go about doing these things combined with those slight differences in ride, handling etc. etc. that make a BMW a BMW and a Lexus a Lexus.

    In my personal experience with both, there are things I did while driving a 745i Sport I wouldn't dare attempt with a 2001-2003 LS430, not that the average buyer drives like I drove those cars on that particular day.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Being that I have a friend who works for Lexus' corporate office in NJ, he has invited me to a ride & drive event that dealers also go to in previous years, Actually once, in 2002. It was at Freehold raceway park in NJ where they set up handling courses, wet track to test the skid controls, slalom cones, drag strip for acceleration runs and so on. Here they have all sorts of cars besides Lexus'. Some cars I remember driving: 2001-2002 MB S430, prev. generation 745i, 2002 LS430(w/o 17"), Cadillac STS, BMW 540i, Lexus GS430, MB E430. Some observations after driving these cars was that all out, the 740i wasn't all that much a better handler than the LS430. IMO, steering feel was better and handling was slightly better. I was able to do the slalom run at about the same speed in both cars and on the other end of the spectrum on the "rough track" section the 740i drove just a tad bit rougher than the LS430. Either way, I found both, to be very similar cars, each just a little bit different from the other in certain areas. I largely feel car magazines blow things out of proportion when they talk about cars to sell more issues. Such as steering feel & handling.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That was my experience as well. It's also why I never buy into the comparos being honest. Too often subjective things determine outcomes which is a way of saying I'll make the car I want to win be the winner.

    Vcheng - that link is incredibly revealing. I know how serious JD Powers is in the industry because I once looked at acquiring it for my old company. It's results are the Bible to the auto mfrs. In fact many auto companies have bonus systems tied to improvement in CR and JDP survey results. It is very similar to bonus systems used in the Music industry with chart performance. When I looked at JDP I had a consulting firm interview auto execs. I know how seriously the data is taken and why it'snever refuted. That's why I laugh at the posts on this board that try to undermine the surveys.

    merc1 - couldn't agree with you more on the MB and Rolls analogy. MB is a reliability issue and that's all. They are still in the lead or very near the top in advancing the industry, whereas Rolls went into a rip van winkle sleepfest. In fact the latter - trying to maintain that #1 position in development - is part of the cause of their reliability problems. Another part may simply be systematic to all of europe. I have seen some consulting reports that simply state the current group of European workers (in all industries) are simply not up to snuff with the people they are replacing.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
      Sturdiness does evoke questions about the construction about the car..I suppose it depends on how you define it.

      "Boring" is a relative term. There are some of us who actually find our Lexi engaging. Just as some of you dismiss your car's technical issues as "Quirks" we do the same for the "boring" issue.
    In both cases the apparent issues aren't enough to stop our enjoyment of the car. I've stated many times that Lexus builds the most customer friendly car out there. I don't think anyone can refute that. Personally, the LS's superior durability, dealer support, and features are enough to keep me a Lexus customer.

    I suppose I could drone on about this and never convince a BMW/MB owner to try one..The opposite is probably true. We are all very passionate about or cars. Merc, I suppose you're right when you say buying a car isn't a totally rational decision.

    If we all wanted the same things in a Luxury car then the market would require only one nameplate. I take issue with those who try to claim their car is "better" than Lexus. Of course we Lexus owners will fire back with every single objective data we have. This data would indicate that the Lexus will offer you a better ownership experience. That's the only way to refute the claim, with hard evidence.

    The way I see it, the German MB/BMW owners cite subjective data. I haven't driven a BMW, but have driven S Class cars..The difference isn't as dramatic as the magazine may have you believe. If you prefer a more "engaging" driving experience, then by all means go buy a Mercedes or BMW. (Where does Jaguar fit in all of this?)

    But don't criticize our beloved Lexi, otherwise we'll drown you will years of JDP and CR data!

    SV
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    The sturdier, better performing BMW's have the highest resale Value among luxury brands according to Automotive Lease Guide and CEO John Blair (jblair@alg.com).
    I guess the reliability issues might be a bit overblown by toyota/lexus owners. By the way my 5 series managed to make it in to work today.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Livinbmw,

    I'm sure your 5 series made it to work today.
    None of us have attempted to categorize the BMW has a German Pinto. But the data says a Lexus will have fewer issues than anything else.

    Again you've claimed the BMW to be sturdier and better performing..Where is the data to back this up? The past few posts have cited data showing the LS at par with the competition.

    Yet you cry foul when we point out that a Lexus will more reliable, ride more comfortably and offer a better ownership experience. Is it our fault a 6 yr old LS400 is more reliable than a new 7 Series? Do we even care that the 7 Series handles marginally better? No. We will all be laughing all the way to the bank.

    As for residuals, it's been stated on this board in the past that the LS has a higher residual than the 7 Series. (And it would appear so based on my Non-Scientific look in the paper) Anyone know?

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    7-series residuals have always been horreendous. LS residuals are the best of the lux group right now by a good sized margin. Historically S-class residuals - up to the past 2 or 3 years have held the crown - in some cases by wide margins. The BMW that drives its residuals high as a brand is the 3 series - not a car that is this board's subject. The E-class residuals had also been very high at one time but have dropped dramatically in the past few years. I'm not measuring residuals in leases. I'm measuring what the car sells for today as a percent of its MSRP. In 2001 the S-class residual built into the lease quoptes I got was 67%. But the value after 3 years declined to 54%. Thus someone - probably an insurance company had a nice sized loss. The LS residualized at 62% in the lease and 63% in actuality. At the resale value a dealer would sell to a consumer it held at 73% of its MSRP.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    The term "german pinto" has not come up until now. I don't recall crying foul in any sense and simply contend that the 'bimmer is a superior driving car........not marginally mind you but superior. And, this observation is not exclusive to the 7 and LS as all of these posts seem to want to focus on but the entire product line.

    For instance, the RX330 is a sloppy handler with extreme overhangs, short wheelbase and intrusive stability control while the X3 is nimble, precise and a sports car-like handler for less money than the fancy camry wagon chick car.

     
    12.03.2003 - MSN

    Automotive Lease Guide's Residual Value Winners
    by the Editors of MSN Autos

    Honda and Toyota lead the way for vehicles with the best residual value at lease end.

    For the fifth year in a row, Honda Motor Co. is a leader among automakers, winning the Industry Brand Residual Value Award from Automotive Lease Guide (ALG). BMW also garnered top honors in the luxury segment, winning the Luxury Brand Residual Value Award. These awards are based on 2004 model-year vehicles.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Meaningless report. It's a summary of what residuals they are building into the leases. Winner in 2001 would have been MB easily with that 67% residual built into the lease. Real world residuals of the 2001 cars were far off that figure - by 12+%. You won't be able to tell the real residuals on 2004 cars until 2007. BMW will do whatever they need to in order to uphold its MSRP. One way to do it is with high lease residuals. Another way is with low interest rates. Still another way to do it is free maintenance. In the accounting reports the auditors undoubtedly will make them lower that revenue by the future maintenance costs or accrue future maintenance expenses against it. The first way is the right way but the second is acceptable. The free maintenance was and is a shrewd CFO's way of upholding revenue and it plays strategically well with marketing..
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    Meaningless? Lenders that do lease programs use this data now to write binding contracts.
     Meaningless? Go to any dealer in the country and ask them if the current residuals have any meaning.
     Meaningless? It's not meaningless to a consumer who is looking at lease payments when comparing different models.

    By the way........Mercedes is dropping Full Maintenance and BMW has added the option of Full Maintenance for up to 100,000 miles.

    Is that meaningless, too?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Do you not know what dealers look at when the evaluate trade-ins? They don't look at automotive lease guide. What they do look at is NADA guide, and auction prices. They look at auction prices to see what prices similar cars have sold for in the very recent past.

    To see that the LS430 for example has higher resale value than the 745i, simply take a look at dealer ads for used cars(a few years old) and then do the math. You'll find the LS430 holds more of it's value in the real world. And not just the LS430, but also the RX330, LX470, GX470. And the other models have resale at or near the top of their respective classes also.

    Keep inciting...
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