High End Luxury Cars

mvargo1 · February 2001

There is a performance in house tuner for Lexus that brands the cars as L-tuned. They have done a GS but have not done anything with the LS series.

Caddy will offer a full range of rear wheel drive models in the next few years.

arcoates · February 2001

Thanks mvargo1. I knew Toyota could not not have a plan for specially tuned cars. They are pretty market savvy.

As for the RWD caddies, the first I know to use the new sigma platform will be the 2002 CTS, formerly the Catera. I have a good feeling about my predictions- hopefully they will turn out to be valid.~ A.R.

wbwynn · February 2001

Now there's a success story....shameful!!

ljflx · February 2001

Ejerod - as long as you're going to buy the car you should spell it correctly. The Brits get very upset about this stuff.

pat · February 2001

.. you never know... maybe the infamous Spell Checker got the poster! :-)

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

merc1 · February 2001

Thank you. Well as far as the C looking like the S, it's always been that way. The previous C from 1994-2000 looked just like the S-Class from 1992-1999 (the infamous W140-Tanks) the 190E looked like the 420/560SEL's of the day. The previous C, especially at night was almost impossible to tell from the 1999 S-Class if the car was coming from behind you. Now granted the new C is an exact copy of the S, but it's just keeping it in the family. The E has always been the style leader, now I expect the next E (2003) to break away from the S and C look with something different. Actually there is spy/enhanced photo of the 2003 E in the E-Class topic. It looks similar to the S of course, but it's not exactly like it. I still way let Lexus make their "big move", Mercedes will always be Mercedes-Benz. They've been around too long to be toppled that easy, or at least not to see it coming. Believe it or not I really thought Lexus would make it, especially I saw the first dealership (Chicago area) around here. Then I looked at their main car (LS400) and who it was imitating. I thought here's a Japanese Benz, and that's basically what they are.

Naturally I like all Mercedes cars, but the E has always been the "best" one for me. It's the right size and price and it gives a good dose of the Benz experience. My favorite E were the 1986-1995 W124 models. I don't know if you remember those, but they defined what a "Mercedes-Benz" is. Pure.

Funny thing about all this is that in 5-7 years Hyundai will probably have a 45K car, and/or a luxury division.

M

merc1 · February 2001

You're right on some things, wrong on others. I don't know if you've been to the autoshows this season, but the new Q doesn't even attract any attention. HP is going to have to mean a lot, because to me this is sorry, pitiful car, I would rather have (gulp!) the LS430. Japanese have no design talent at all. If that is what the new Z is going to look like they can keep it. The previous car was good looking, but this new one isn't. Mercedes' parent company didn't buy Chrysler because of Lexus, I know you don't think that. If that was the case, Daimler-Benz would have done something in 1993, when they were at their lowest point of the previous decade. I guess what I keep hearing from you is that Toyota/Lexus changed the world so much and it just isn't so. GM will never have BMW. Never. Ever. What technology did Lexus have 2-3 years before Mercedes. I would really like to know that.

M

merc1 · February 2001

Cadillac has a chance of truly competing, but they are chasing a moving target that is already way ahead of them. GM's problem is that they don't sweat the details of luxury car construction like Mercedes, BMW and yes Lexus. Lexus is the just more of the same nightmare for GM. The Camry handles one end and the LS430 the other. The Europeans have the luxury car know-how to compete better with the Japanese. Cadillac's Northstar is one good engine, and a rwd will complement it, but if Cadillac doesn't do something more with the way they build their cars, the advantages of the engine/chassis combo will be lost. Mercedes, BMW and Lexus cars don't fall apart after 50K miles, like so many GM cars do. I'm so anxious to see what the 2004 Seville will be like, but by then a new E, GS, and 5-Series will be right there waiting. Then there is Audi, Jaguar, Infiniti and I think everyone is going to be surprised when Acura decides to seriously compete in the upper segments. I know they have the RL, but it get trounced by almost all of it's 6-cylinder competition.

M

ljflx · February 2001

Was the E the car in the "Four Seasons" that fell into the lake? DO I have the right movie - You know the one with Alan Alda? That was a classic car. I also don't like looks of the new Q - but have a feeling it will be hot. Let's see.

ljflx · February 2001

I didn't say Lexus had technology before MB. Only that it had a huge car base to pass it onto. In the business world that kind of leverage is a huge advantage. Their strategy could have backfired but it didn't. That's why MB had no choice. But Juergen has made colossal bad moves since the deal. You don't buy a company and then turn off their management team the way he did. Foolish German pride.

arcoates · February 2001

I agree merc1- that is the only problem with GM. I think it's because they have always been the worlds largest company, and sell their cars regardless of the interior pieces. It's almost as if they have the same workmanship standards from the Cavalier to the STS. If they want to compete, they are gonna have to wise up.

Acura better have something good with the new RL- because at the moment it is no competition to the rest. And the new Q is extremely ungainly in design- the front headlights, although revolutionary (they claim) are so huge they make the car look funny. The rest of it is so conservative, that I agree I would take the LS430 over it.

The next few years should be interesting in this market- with all the new money around, more car companys are going to try and join this market, and there is going to be some extremely good cars out there~ A.R.

coolmatt44 · February 2001

My mothers birthday, and my fathers retirement are coming up soon. I would like to purchase them both a car. I am planing on getting my mom an S430, and with the options I feel she would want it came out to $81,084. I am either getting my dad a CLK55 or a CL500. I am leaning to the CL500, because that seems to be a good mix of premium luxury and sports, although the price is a little outrageous. The dealer offered me 72k for the CLK55, and $90,022 for the CL500. I am going tommorow to make an order on two cars, any input before I decide on what to get them? Also do you think the S500 is worth the extra premium, that came out to $91,124, for my mom? Thanks for your help!

coolmatt44 · February 2001

I am not getting the CL or the S500, I think I'll put my order in for the S430, and the CLK55 AMG. Dealer brought the S430 down to 78.5k, and the CLK is set in stone at MSRP. Making the order tommorow, ignore most of the other post.

wbwynn · February 2001

If you love them....buy the LS430 for one of them, so you will be sure that one of them will still love you!! Take the savings and give them a trip around the world.....

It's a no-brainer....

merc1 · February 2001

I didn't see that movie. Try www.mercedesshop.com and go to the "featured cars" section and look at the 300E/E320, 400E/E420, and 500E/E500 cars. Thats the E I was speaking of. I went to the Detroit show last month and the Chicago show the other day and the new Q isn't even being looked at. I think after the first 6 months everyone that really wants one will have one, after that it'll be in the 99 cents bin like the current car. I not sure I understand your comments about Lexus' base that they passed the technology on to and that "Mercedes had no choice". I'm not clear on what you're trying say there. Now the merger/buy-out I agree with, it's a big mess. I don't see how anyone could have thought it was a merger of equals. I for one almost had to be hospitalized the day I heard of it. (ha ha...)

M

coolmatt44 · February 2001

Thats not a bad Idea! I have changed my mind again, and I think my dad mentioned wanting a convertible. If the AMG came in a Cabrio. I would most likely get that, but as it is I'm just going to get him a CLK430 Cabrio. And my mom...
Well she has never really liked Mercedes, so I think I am going to order her a BMW 540i sport, I'll just load it up real nice, and although it won't be an equivalent to the S, I just dont think its practical to go out and buy to 80k+ cars. Thank you for your help. I Am taking Tuesday off from work, so I'll go make the orders then.

ljflx · February 2001

What I meant was that once Lexus developed a new technology it kept it for itself - usually 2-3 years than passed it onto Toyota to use in their broad base of cars. The capitalized development cost of the technology asset could be spread over a longer period of time (improved income statement) and Toyota saved cash on development for the everyday cars. The new dvd based nav system for example is already in the Landcruiser and will work its way down the Toyota line in a few years. Don't be surprised if an Avalon is getting it at the same time as MB is upgrading to DVD. Toyotas already have dashboard cd players, MB's are still in the trunk. These are just a couple of the evident ones - there are so many engineering based ones as well like traction control etc. MB couldn't keep their prices competitive if they didn't have a platform to spread their technology to. BMW is in that position right now. Technology license deals will not solve the problem. BMW's fine for the next few years but beyond that they are in trouble. Their profit margins are way lower than Toyota already.

I know these brands are revered here but in truth if they don't make the right business moves they won't be able to engineer the cars we are used to in the future. Let's face it they don't have the luxury of raising prices the way they did in the pre-1990 era.

jarmstrong2 · February 2001

Does anyone know what the new 2002 Jag will look like? Is there major changes in appearance?
I am now dealing for a 98 VDP with 47K miles. Could anyone give me any insite on the non-dealer warranty? I talked to a Jag dealer and they told me to make sure that the warranty company paid directly to the dealer and not to me. This would mean if there was major problem, I would have to come out of pocket before I was reimbursed by the Warranty company. Any help anyone/

bwh · February 2001

Thats all very interesting. I however as a consumer will buy the car I like best. The companies financial statement means nothing to me. Buying a Lexus based on their bottom line seems beside the point, the car is not an investment.

mvargo1 · February 2001

I would strongly suggest that you get the Jaguar Select Edition Warrenty. Not only will the warrenty be from Jaguar, but you will also get 5.9% financing. Most aftermarket warrenty companies that provide jag warrenties are very expensive and do not offer nearly as much coverage as Jag's Select Edition coverage. Also non-Jaguar Warrenties will sometimes have considerable deductables and sometimes will allow use of non Jaguar parts. You are buying a car that finished sixth on the last JD powers long term reliability survay, but it is expensive to repair when something breaks.

jarmstrong2 · February 2001

Is there a JDPowers info site that I can look up the reliability of the 1998 JAG VDP? Any help would be appreciated.

bwh · February 2001

Just don't put a lot of stock into what that survey says. For instance, Jaguar used to be well know for being problematic. Still they have strong repeat business because of the type of market they cater to. So an owner of a shoddy 1990 VDP who trades into a nice new V8 VDP will be astonished by the improvement in quality. This will be reflected in the survey, lets just say they were a little jaded from previous experience. Now if a Lexus owner has any trouble, even the smallest item, it is likely to be reflected in the survey. What I am trying to illustrate is that the survey is not as reliable as one would hope due to auto brand loyalty. That said, I would not buy ANY of the cars listed without a service contract of some type, the factory backed ones being the best.

arcoates · February 2001

We are having a great discussion in the Seville STS- Two board about RWD vs. FWD, and what a true luxury car in this class should have. Because the STS is switching to RWD in the near future, some of the diehards prefer the FWD. Check it out, it's interesting.~A.R.

P.S. Webmaster, I hope this is okay to do, and not breaking the rules.

christchurch · February 2001

I am considering buying an XJ series Jag - say from 1995 to 1998.
(1) What advice can you give me ? XJ6 or XJ8 ?
Models to avoid ? What mileage range would be advisable ?
(2) What about the "unreliablility" of Jags - true or false for these model years ?
(3) What extended warrenty is best among those available ?
(4) Any other advice to someone "new to Jag" ?

Thanks !

merc1 · February 2001

Oh you mean within the Toyota empire, Lexus kept the technology for themselves. Yes that's true, luxury brand first. I'll be the first on to admit that Mercedes and all other German cars (Porsche is a disgrace) are way behind on in-car entertainment. Mercedes still doesn't offer an in-dash CD player standard, which quite frankly is silly and absurd for a 2001 model car. Remember I'm probably their 2nd biggest fan on all of Edmunds. Are you saying that Lexus has traction control first? I think it went like this, Lexus was first in the U.S. on the 1990 LS400, but the 500SL (also new for 1990) had it also, but in Europe only, it came to the U.S. on the 500SL for 1991. Cadillac *may have* had it in 1989 on the Allante. Not sure, but possible. You can't expect BMW's profit margins to be as high as Toyota's, look at the size of the 2 companies. As long as BMW does what they do best, build the best sporting luxury cars on earth they'll be ok, if not bursting at the seams with cash like you say Toyota is. You have to remember that Germans are very stubborn, they rarely if ever sell cars at a loss. And Mercedes' prices are only competitive at base, with options Mercedes' cars are still ususually thousands more than their nearest competitor, excluding BMW. Yes they have more standard equipment now, and they are cheaper than their direcet predessors, but they'll never cost less than a Japanese car. So far there hasn't been any technology from MB implemented on any Chrysler products, if that is what you meant by MB having another "platform" to spread costs too. Otherwise they've always spreaded techlogoy from the bigger cars to the smaller ones.

M

bwh · February 2001

Never intended to entertain you with anything other than race car moves. I never even listen to the CD player in my Porsche when its on the track where it belongs.

arcoates · February 2001

Personally, I would opt for the XJ6. There wasn't a huge improvement switching from the I6 to the V8. To compare, the I6 had 245 bhp, and 289 ft.lb. of torque. The V8 has 290 bhp, and 290 ft.lb. of torque. So, in day to day driving, where torque is more important, they are equal.

The body styles are nearly identical, the XJ6's will be cheaper, interiors almost the same (I prefer the XJ6 interior design to the XJ8 actually). The XJ8's will come with more standard equipment, but any Jag buyer would load it to the gills anyway.

We got our XJ6 used, as you will, and it had the "Select Jaguar Warranty" I think it's called. It's whatever Jaguar gives to it's used cars, that's the name. And it pretty much covers everything.

I would say go for a 1996-97 XJ6. It's always better not to buy the first year of a car. I would also say to go for the Vanden Plas, as the rear-seat room in the standard wheelbase is pitiful.

As for the reliability problems, Ford had owned Jaguar for a number of years when these models came out, and they worked out most of the bugs.

They are great cars to buy used. The mileage isn't really an issue, since the engines are engineered to high standards. I'd say somewhere in the 60,000m range.

I think you will be happy with either an XJ6 or an XJ8, but I would advise to go for the XJ6. Better fuel economy, and not much of a difference from the V8. Good luck.~ A.R>

denniswade · February 2001

You diss Lexus for their emphasis on ride and tranquillity and recommend the Jag? Come one now. The Jaguar has far less of the driving dynamic you say you love in the German makes. It's a soft, luxurious car in the British tradition -- and it's showing its age. Check out the latest comparison test in Auto World Weekly -- the Jag came out on the bottom for a whole host of reasons, including lack of power.

As for bwh's comment that "The companies financial statement means nothing to me. Buying a Lexus based on their bottom line seems beside the point, the car is not an investment," I believe he missed the point. What ljflx was saying is that by following a sound business plan, Lexus will always have the necessary capital to meet the market head-on, whereas Mercedes is already in trouble because of its disastrous handling of the D/C merger and Mitsu buy-out. D/C's stock went up following the rumor (some say floated by D/C executive staff) that Toyota was thinking about buying them out. What does that tell you?

arcoates · February 2001

I am sorry, but I would take the Jaguar over the Lexus anyday because the Jaguar has a sense of heritage. That plays an important role in my decision making as well. And the Jaguar is not soft- it is not as stiff as the German cars, but when called upon it performs admirably. There is definately a difference between a BMW and Jaguar, but it is still a luxury-sport sedan. I would say the Lexus is a pure luxury car. Jaguar goes to the effort to tune their cars, and give them R designation. XJR, XKR etc...

And also, the lady of the house is the primary driver of the Jaguar and she primarily wanted it for it's curb appeal. She's a women- you can't blame her. If she had asked for a Lexus, the answer would definately be no. The Jaguar still ranks higher than the Lexus.~ A.R.

ljflx · February 2001

Thanks. The moves of today will determine the cars (and prices)of tommorrow. Heritage is relevant in living things not cars. Both MB and BMW are in trouble right now. If MB mishandles Chrysler any further they will slide very fast. The car enthusiasts will notice the difference in quality in say 2004 or so. Toyota is in an unbelievably strong financial position and the fact that the LS430 is such a hit solidifies their market power all the more.

Merc1 - Regardless of who deploys new technology first the other guy usually is there within a year. So I hardly think it matters who gets there first. But if MB is not going to share platforms or technology then why the heck did it buy Chrysler? That deployment is what is making Toyota so solid right now. By the way the worst dream MB can have is to see luxury technology deployed in everyday Toyotas before they have it.

ljflx · February 2001

Your passion overcomes common sense. I admire it but would never trust your opinion. Have you ever driven a Lexus LS430? Do you have any clue how great a car it is??

arcoates · February 2001

No ljflx, I admit I have not. I will be totally up front and say that my knowledge about the LS is what I have read and surmised on my own.

I agree with you that I would never trust my opinion on Japanese cars because I have no first-hand knowledge of those cars, but you would be wrong not to trust me about European cars. My passion guarantees my informed opinion. You may not like it, but I am far from ignorant.

As for giving out my advice, you have no business second-guessing me about my Jaguar knowledge in particular because I acutally have one, and know what it is like to live with this car. I too purchased it used, like the person who is posing the questions. So I have even more insight into his line of questioning.

Some may say I am offensive, but you sir/ma'am are just plain rude and disrespectful. I may attack cars, but have never launched a personal assault against someone. There is a fine line between agressively discussing cars and then offending someone. You should investigate in getting some manners!~ A.R.

ljflx · February 2001

I never said a word about the Jaguar. So you must be imagining things. I wouldn't critique something that I haven't evaluated directly. But I do find it interesting that you can critique something you haven't ever experienced but get offended that someone else would pull the same thing on you -- even though in this case I didn't.

I've not ridden in a Jag but do admire their looks. But I will tell you my next door neighbor had a lot of problems with his and could'nt wait to get out of his lease.

If you're going to be really be serious about this why don't you take an LS430 out for a test drive? You'll be amazed if you're really honest with yourself.

I did say I admire your passion and enthusiasm. But I absolutely do not trust your opinion. Sorry if you are offended by that.

arcoates · February 2001

That's it- I'm out. I thought this would be a fun thing to do- sit around and chew the fat about the automobiles that I love. Discuss, disagree, learn- have a good time with knowledgeable people.

Instead, I have been shown up by some of the ultimate authorities on high-end luxury models. The most learned, brilliant people to ever walk this earth.

So I humbly bow out. Good luck all enquirers, because you are talking to the best of the best here. And I always thought America was the land of the free...~ A.R.

ljflx · February 2001

Went back and read my posts and don't see why your feelings are so hurt. But I missed something that you said. In your post 632 you say "she's a woman - you can't blame her". You make a comment like that and you have the nerve to tell me I'm disrespectful and have no manners. As someone posted earlier - you seem to be very unsure of your ground and your irrationality proves it.

georget3 · February 2001

Leonard, I understand that you're a Lexus fan, a die-hard LS430 defender. And you are not alone, there are many more like you out there. I almost traded in my 740IL for a LS430 a month ago. I like many things that you praise so well about it. I tested driving it seriously two different times. To me, the LS drive very good until I did some turning and cornering. Coming from being a 740IL driver, I felt very disappointed. I did not feel the excitement that I have while I tested MB S500. Guess what, I traded my BMW for a beautiful silver/charcoal S500. And I have loved every bit of it. I wonder if you've ever driven a BMW or S class? If you have, I'd love to hear your opinion. If not, I'd suggest that you try driving an S500 with various suspension settings. When you do, please drive it hard, turn it sharp, and see how you feel.

christchurch · February 2001

arcoates
I thank you.
Your comments, advice and suggestions concerning XJ-Jags were timely and most welcomed. Anything else you think of, let me know.
Thanks, again,
christchurch

44264 · February 2001

I have driven the LS430, A8, S500, S430, 750il and would rate LS430 last. I get car sick in the back of the LS430 and as a driver's car, the LS430 doesn't give the driver much confidence. Very disappointed with the brakes as well as the excessive roll in the LS430.

The only Lexus I like is the GS430, much better handling and performance over the rest of the line.

merc1 · February 2001

I meant just stereo wise only, you know there is nothing else disgraceful about a Porsche. But I couldn't believe the sound system in the Carrerra 4.

M

merc1 · February 2001

Toyota will never get any piece of Mercedes, nor is Mercedes itself in trouble. If push comes to shove DCX will become 2 seperate entities, Chrysler being let go that is.

M

shehzad · February 2001

I have a 1999 XJ8, and to be honest, I would disagree with the gentleman recommending the 6 cylinder over the 8 cylinder engine. First of all, b/c of the interior-I found the 6 cylinder interior to be kind of busy and difficult to follow, especially while driving, whereas the redesign in 1998 made the dash considerably more streamlined. Also, the recommended maintainence interval on the 8's is every 10,000 miles, and was 7500 miles on the xj6's. I usually keep my cars until they absolutely die, which is well past their warranty period, and as Jaguar's are expensive cars to service, one less trip to the service department for every 30,000 miles is easier on the wallet-especially after the warranty goes down. Next, in 1998, jag came out with side airbags, which I don't believe they had in the 6cylinders. I have no idea whether this should be a purchase consideration or not, as Jag's are pretty safe in the first place, but it's nice insurance. Finally, in comparing the XJ6, I can't really attest to their reliability, but I can say that I haven't had a single problem with my XJ8 and I average about 23mpg on mostly highway driving-and I'm pretty sure that the 6 cylinders isn't as good as mine, as one of the gentleman in my practice has a 1996 6 cylinder and was shocked with my fuel economy. If you can afford it, and I know there's a pretty big difference in price btween the 6's and 8's, I'd really go with the 8.

bwh · February 2001

I know what you meant, just poking at you a bit. I agree, even the upgraded systems in the new Porsches are a joke. They apply technology to other priorities like power and handling, Germanic priorities, that is why I have one!

I also have test driven all of these cars and then some. Our first foray into luxo cars was a '95 740iL, not without its problems, but gorgeous to look at and splendid to drive. I looked at the LS400 (used) and the new LS430. I drove both, in the same weekend I drove the 740,750,S430,S500 and A8. I am impressed by the Lexus for quality, smoothness and service reputation. It's no secret that I prefer the M-B and BMW. The one that surprised me was the A8, very well equipped and the nicest interior of the bunch. The reputation of questionable quality kept me away, along with the prospect of repairing a damaged aluminum bodied car. I also would challenge the Lexus fans to take out the M-B and BMW for aggressive drives, this will reveal with no uncertainty the advantages of the German designs. The Lexus may be quiet, well equipped, and reliable, but it simply does not drive like a BMW. Like before I think it comes down to prorities, I like a responsive, virile machine, if I want to relax I use the couch in my living room. I also think it is foolish to suggest that M-B and BMW are in trouble financially and may not be able to compete. That is awfully far fetched, and certainly premature. Niether is floundering or lacking direction, they are the leaders, the innovaters, I have no doubt they will survive and flourish.

blehrlich · February 2001

I (prematurely??) put on my spring/summer/fall 18" wheels and tires onto my MB S500. WOW! The car handles incredibly, without the slightly harsher ride of the 740iL sport (I have a bad back and am very sensitive to this). I have test driven an LS430 (with Eurotuned suspension and 17" wheels and tires), and there is no comparison (especially with the MB's adjustable suspension). I still hink that the LS is unparalled when it comes to interior "sumptuousness", but I guess it depends on what you are looking for.
The only other area where Lexus blew it and is way behind is in the integration of a digital and voice activated telephone system (don't even try to defend the Lexus/Sprint telephone which Lexus is actually offering to buy back from customers.
Unfortunately, in all this talk of Lexus technical superiority, Lexus owners fail to give any credit where it is due.

bwh · February 2001

You struck cord there. I find myself making concessions towards Lexus' for their accomplishments which are impressive. Yet the Lexus fans seem unwilling to acknowledge the stregnths of the German brands.

denniswade · February 2001

Toyota has no intention of acquiring ANY other car company, including D/C, GM or anybody else. However, they certainly have the financial means to do so -- they're the only ones who do -- and the information I included in my previous post came from the British newsletter I receive weekly; it's not something I made up just to irritate you (although it obviously does).

arcoates: On the off-chance that you may still be monitoring this topic, allow me to comment on one of your last posts. Re your comment that "I am sorry, but I would take the Jaguar over the Lexus anyday because the Jaguar has a sense of heritage," I respect your love and respect for the marque -- all of us here feel that cars are much more than just sheetmetal and plastic -- but the intangible you describe is totally personal and non-quantifiable. It is also unfortunate that you take such a strong position on a car you've never driven, such as the LS430 (or any Lexus, for that matter). If handling is your preference, you might want to try the GS400 -- an awesome car with startling performance and handling. If you like a svelte sense of style with your performance, may I recommend the new SC430 -- it has the lovely combination of style, luxury and performance normally personified by Jaguar.

ljflx · February 2001

I did not look at the BMW 740. Neither I nor my wife like its style and too many people we know had problems with their BMW's and told us to stay away from them. All of those people, like those on this board, raved about the engineering, but complained bitterly about the breakdowns.

We did however seriouly evaluate the A-8 quattro, the E-430 4matic - both because of the obvious all wheel drive - and the S430 and S500. We weren't all that impressed with the A-8 and the E-430 was just too small for us though looks wise this was our favorite.

We really wanted to move away from Lexus because we've had LS-400's in 1995 and again in 1998 - both of which were flawless - and wanted a change. We were very impressed with the S-500 but couln't stand the interior and found the stereo very disappointing. The handling was great but the ride and quietness was not in the Lexus league. The S-430 was'nt powerful enough. If we were goint to go MB it was going to be an S-500. When we finally went to test it against the LS430 we both looked at each other and knew it was still the car for us. But you will not here me knockdown the S-500 - it's a truly great and beautifully styled car. However where it edges out the LS430 is not important to us. We won't drive it the way you noted and prefer the quiet cabin, great ride and wonderful interior. We could'nt possibly take advantage of superior handling because most of the time we have 2 kids in the car including a 2 1/2 year old. I also don't see people on the road driving it the way you say you do. They take turns the same way I do - yes I see the brake lights go on - and I see many people driving 55mph in the right lane.

ljflx · February 2001

I find the brakes are excellent, the handling is more than I need and as yet no one has passed out in the backseat. The backseat passengers actually are very complimentary about the car. Your problem seems to be the exception, not the rule. I also have a hard time believing it.

44264 · February 2001

ljflx -

I suppose we have different standards, with mine being more on the performance side.

The problem with the LS brakes I find, is its lack of response when first applied, lack of brake feel- your brakes are either on or off, if you know what I mean. I would not enjoy pushing the LS to its limit unlike the GS, S-class, 7-series or A8.

As a true 'back seat' luxury car, I find the S-class (stretched version) and 7-series (L wheel base) much roomier, the LS is simply too tight.

I like the quietness in the LS, although as mentioned, the soft suspension causing the excessive roll was not pleasant at all in the back...

ljflx · February 2001

You must have a chaffeur at least some of the time. My boss feels that way about his A-8 which is always driven by his chaffeur. By the way I did not know The S-class had a stretched version.

Let me clarify one other thing. When I say that my wife & I couldn't stand the S-Class interior it wasn't intended to mean it was shoddy. We both felt that it could be made more luxurious -paticularly given the cars price - but what I meant was MB's functional layout left a lot to be desired - particularly vs. that of Lexus which is so well thought out.

It's nice to see your a gentleman.

Last thing - don't know where your from but if you come to New York and take a taxi you'll find out what real "body roll" is.

christchurch · February 2001

I appreciate your adding additional comments to our discussion of Jaguar motorcars.
I tend to agree with you that the XJ8 is probably an improvement over the "the old workhorse" engine of the XJ6, but may be more a matter of taste (dashboard configuration, etc., engine hp, etc.).

The safety issue is always one for me. I do think that the addition of side air bags increases ones protection in what is an otherwise quite safe vehicle.

Thanks for confirming the reliability of the Jag.
In the public mind this seems to be a caveat.

One further note, you say you drive them "till they collapse". Have you ever purchased an "extended warrenty" to cover what could be costly repairs? If so, what company have you found provided the best coverage and was the most reliable?

Any other purchase or ownership advice ?

Thanks, christchurch

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