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330i performance pk, 330Ci sport, M3, oh my god look at those 760i wheels!!!, 4.4 sport wheels, 4.8is and the Z4 3.0 standard as opposed to the sport elipsoid wheel,,,,,,,,,
check these out designman. Maybe, you can reconsider.
And note I utterly share the sentiment about melting pot - strict ideology is soemthing I have always viewed as a copout by the intellectually lazy. I feel utterly comfortable freely borrowing whatever I think works best for the particular social and economical issues we face.
And cite one single study that links German unions or lack or workers' will to work hard with MB's quality problems. There aren't any. Again, lack of investment a la Toyota in making sure you're implementing best of the best practices is what is missing, because it was not prioritized. If you could read German, there are several articles in www.diezeit.de that have gone into that, especially when it comes to MB's recent history of management mistakes. The fact that you assume the guys that bought Chrysler are guys that set the right process priorities internally, and that it was merely lazy workers that didn't do their part is downright entertaining.
However, I bought an Audi after owning a BMW328, and a Merc E320. I love this car, as most europians do. That is what made me fight to get a position with the company.
I am not trying to push this product, but I would like to get things straight.
1: Lexus is an "Entry" Lux car. It uses styrofoam for sound damping, and sounds like a tin can hitting a wall whenever you close a door or hood. It is a nicely refined toyota, good value for the money, but nowhere close to the Germans for performance, road handling, or Lux Passenger Environment.
2: BMW is a solid car. And it actually handles great in a straight line when compared to Merc or Audi. And they even have a windows (YEP) base computer system. (Bet you wondered why all the problems...) P.S. The name cost you an extra $5k - $15k.
3: Merc just had a press release claiming that over 600 features where being removed due to "not be needed," and "not being profitable to make work correctly." This came after a historic rise in customer complaints in recent years. P.S. Greatly underpowered compaired to is rivals.
4: If I had to be involved in a major accident, I would only choose to be in a "german" car. Go to one of the dealerships for these cars and drive one if you don't understand.
5: This being said, once you drive and Audi you will understand why it Rules Europe. There is nothing even close in performance, fit and finish, SAFETY, and Material Quality. I dare you to actually drive these before you challenge me. (I will admit, there were some really crappy older models....I refer to 1998 and up when Audi rebuilt themselves.)
Gee, is Limbaugh in charge of manufacturing? I didn't know that!!!
Life is better at the beach!
Just asking.
I'd like to be educated. What, pray tell, are the best aspects of Socialism?
Thanks.
Give me a break!
Really? That is extremely interesting insight. There is only one problem, Audi is far from ruling the rest of the world. In fact, I even doubt it "rules" Europe. I thought, out of luxury cars, Mercedes ruled.
The rest of your post is quite funny also!
"BMW is a solid car. And it actually handles great in a straight line when compared to Merc or Audi. And they even have a windows (YEP) base computer system."
Funny, last time I checked it even handled better in turns!
"3: Merc just had a press release claiming that over 600 features where being removed due to "not be needed," and "not being profitable to make work correctly." This came after a historic rise in customer complaints in recent years. P.S. Greatly underpowered compaired to is rivals."
Yet it seems similar Benz cars in Audi's lineup are slower.
I must admit those 911 reviews are tempting me though. I can afford plenty of Porsche now. But my wife would kill me. She doesn't drive stick. She wants an SL or an SC as a toy car in about a year. In the meantime I've got too much going on in my business between now and the inflection point of a toy car. But at that realm - it's a play thing - so if MB reliability is still sub-par it won't concern me as much.
By the way - a good friend had a 911 and we got pulled over on the Garden State pkwy one night (this was before the kids and responsibility) going well over 100mph. He saw the cops headlights pull off from the side of the road in the far distance and knew we were in trouble. Luckily it turned out to be a good trooper and he ticketed my buddy at only 71mph which was just below the trigger to much more serious fines. But we did spend 5-10 minutes talking about the Porsche with him. Indeed Porsche does carry that kind of weight and mystique.
lastly - the European labor situation is a problem as far as I'm concerned. I worked 15 years for a European business and everyone knew it. The cast system there also hinders people from speaking up against the decisions higher up. The MB CFO that spoke heavily against continuing the Mitsubishi investment rarely happens there. In general my experience is that workers totally disagree with certain business strategies, production or approach but simply do not speak out despite the fact that they have so much severance protection. That is telling.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=colum- nist_levin&sid=ayabRNuoohoA
Merc1: No need to comment on everything, especially since all you have to say are same old same old shtufff. Gotta move on... Suggest you do too. Oh, forgot to mention. MB rules !!!
"It uses styrofoam for sound damping, and sounds like a tin can hitting a wall whenever you close a door or hood. It is a nicely refined toyota, good value for the money, but nowhere close to the Germans for performance, road handling, or Lux Passenger Environment." Where did you get this information? Or did you just make it up? Audi rules nowhere, not Europe, and certainly not the North American market. Here Audi comes in last place, behind the "entry" Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes.
"P.S. Greatly underpowered compaired to is rivals." Your statement was in reference to M-B, but Audi is most guilty of that. Audi\VW's 3.0L V6 is pathetic, it is the smallest displacement, lowest power engine compared to any of Audi's German or Japanese rivals. The Toureg V6 is stuck with that wheesebox, and it has an 11 second 0-60 thanks to it.
Whis is exactly the same thing I stated, what I saw. I was out with a friend during that time frame, looking at cars and yes we did check all the area dealers, not for hail damaged, but because he was buying a car. The Mercedes and VW dealers are the only ones that didn't have damage to their outside inventories.
You told what you saw and so did I and in your opinion was that of MB not having thicker sheetmetal and without the facts you're asking me for you're making just that, a "generalization" based on what you saw.
M
Lexusguy,
Sorry, but the ES330 could be made out of the best materials on earth, wouldn't matter to me, it is about the ugliest car in that price range by far, and the drive is totally off-putting to say the least. Fit and finish isn't everything.
ljflx,
I swear if you buy a 911 or SL I swear I won't know what to do here anymore. You know you can get a 911 with an automatic, sacrilegious as that may be.
M
That said, and as ljflx re-stated, no one disputed German labor laws are *costly*. What *is* disputable is that they negatively influence product quality directly. All of the German car companies have had more than enough time to terminate every German workers and move their entire manufacturing capacity to Eastern Europe. They haven't. And they make a point to produce their highest end models -and inceidentally highest quality ones- in Germany with parts sourced from German suppliers. Not that it helps them achieve Toyota standards, but that's the best they can currently do quality wise.
Again, the business challenge in Germany is labor *cost*. Labor *quality* is actually great. It is just up to management to utilize that quality at premium cost so that it supports business goals.
""First with the most" Actually I think to say Lexus is "second with the best" is accurate. Being First is a negative in many ways when a company rushes innovations into production just for the sake of saying they were first.
Back on that again I see. I've been waiting for over a year for you to list what Lexus came up after Mercedes did that Lexus perfected. I'm also still trying to find a Cadillac Alante that has a "shoulder harness" too.
"I say again...Mercedes once the greatest car in the World has slipped because they have favored in recent years Form over Function. They have favored "Get it first" rather then "Get it best"
And saying it 100 times doesn't make it true. I'm still waiting on you to give me an example of this Mike. If you think they didn't at the very least set out to make the best then there is no point in even talking about this. They "favored" something not working right. That is such bs. In what functional way are Mercedes' cars compromised because they are are too busy with styling? Are Mercedes' rear seats cramped due to swoopy styling, are they less-safe because of styling considerations? I'm seriously willing to listen to something factual about Mercedes being compromised or not functional because of their styling or some other frivilous approach they now have towards car design. I suspect this is yet another in a long line if unprovable ramblings from you on Mercedes. Innovations now styling is compromising the functionality of their cars? Ok, I'm reading.
M
The CTS-V while delivering the numbers hasn't proved to be the equal of the Germans in build or refinement. Axle hop problems in a 2004 performance car?
The STS I'm actually sort of impressed with. It seems, so far to be a very well thought out car, if a little pricey. Cadillac isn't using a cheaper price combined with an inferior car to lure customers anymore. They think they have a truly equal product and their pricing shows this. It will be interesting how many people pay 60K+ for a STS.
I personally don't care much for the new look as the old Cadillacs didn't have a styling problem to me, especially the 1998-2004 Seville. I think part of the reason the XLR hasn't sold well is because very few people want the jet fighter look when buying a 76k luxury-sport roadster. They seem to want the sensous and curvy look like the XK, or the formal and elegant look of the SL. The CTS' proportions are very correct, but all the harsh lines and sharp angles keep it from being "good looking" in my book. The STS looks much better at least in pics, I haven't seen it in person yet.
The STS-V and XLR-V with a projected 425hp will only get beat in the mags against the M5/E55 and SL55 AMG. As trivial as it may be, winning some of these comparos would go a long way towards renewing Cadillac's luster. The SRX is the only one that has really won anything so far. The CTS and XLR have been merely compeitive.
M
Go and drive an Audi then compare. I deal with Lexus on a daily basis. If they were in the same league, they would be priced comparably...unless you just happen to think they are the only company that does not want to charge the most the market will take?? Maybe we should put them incharge of national heathcare....
However, the frond end is dead-nuts PERFECT. Look how the subtle bumper cuts and grille blend easily into the understated vertical crease which is the focal point. Nothing overpowers on the front... all elements work in perfect harmony to strike a noble chord. Notice how the features are finessed in comparison to the CTS. And it sure does review nicely against the 545 with performance.
Jeez, this car is so close with styling. I hope Cadillac sticks around with sport sedans. They really need to nail the recipe, perhaps a tall order for a car with a pure luxury following.
1: You have not driven all the cars you speak about.
2: You do not understand the effect of the numbers you read about in the magazines you use for information.
There are some things that magazines do not comment on such as power transfer, horsepower lose through the drivetrain, and "Power at Wheel", "Torque at Wheel", etc.
A 3.0 or a 1.8t with a $500 APR chip will lay waste to an E320 or V6 Lexus.
Apparently some people feel they are educated by reading some books...
Maybe we need to only speak about cars we have actually driven and PUSHED TO THEIR LIMITS.
How do you communicate with a person that does not want to believe, will not look, and will not consider anything outside their experience?
Oh, by the way, my girlfriend's father is a car fanatic. He has owned just about every kind of car there is. A few years ago he bought an Audi S8...and kept it for a total of four months. He said it was the worst car he ever owned for a number of reasons (mostly mechanical). He has also owned a Mercedes SL600 and S-Class and currently drives a BMW 7 Series (all bought new) and says the Audi isn't even close to those two German brands.
I don't care what league the A8 is in, the fact is they can barely give them away compared to the S/7/LS.
"Windows" by microsoft is an execellent basis for the 7's computer, no buggs right????
And the last S8 is an older model you are compairing to everyones newer stuff....fair enough. I would love to compair them side by side.
However, take a look at the current A8L, Let alone the new S8 with the Lambo/Audi v10 and then talk....
Sure you do!! You just keep saying that to yourself and maybe it will come true!
Tell us when you purchase your first lux car and when you are actually speaking from experience, not a magazine.
Please, if you don't own a Lux car, don't act like you understand them (including those of you who have friends, or family that "Tell you things"). If you want to simply repeat what a magazine has printed, just place the website and refrain from commenting.
Thank you in advance.
PS, Find a LEXUS. Open the front door. In the rear space where the door meets the front fender, tell us what you see....BLACK STYROFOAM!!!!!!!
Do you really think I am anti-German. I am very pro Lexus because I think many German car fans don't have a clue as to the great cars Lexus makes - on balance. I do believe you and some others agree on the quality build but some can't seem to handle it. They also built cars for the US market not the German market and that fails to register with many people. It's like criticizing a garment maker because clothes made for American tastes and introduced very successfully don't hit the European sweetspot. But the fact that they can make a car that handles like the IS (with most saying it outhandles a 3-series on its first try) makes it quite clear that the European sweetspot will be hit and that they will be much more focused on it this next go round. Remember that Porsche was outsourced for help with the next GS.
As for the Germans - I am and always will be an MB or Porsche person if I go there (though I doubt I'd have any interest in a Porsche family sedan as I separate sport from luxury). MB costs more than it should but I understand quite well that its cost structure is high and there is a price to be paid for historic branding - and they are one of the world's foremost brands. But that price premium isn't worth it, nor is it one I will swallow when quality declines - at least not for the cars I use day in and day out. To be quite honest with you I'm disappointed about MB's decline. I think they will stop it but I don't think they will ever get back to their lofty position. BMW doesn't do much for me (save the 330cci) and the only VW/Audi cars I like are the A8 and the Tourag. I actually think the Phaeton is a great buy right now and may be garnering an even lower percentage of MSRP than the Q. I don't see the car surviving much longer though.
Every bit of the technology used by Audi on the R8's finds it's way into their production cars....
(Example: The roof of an Audi will take over 11000 pound of weight without crumpling more that 1 inch total volumn.)
Go to the following website to see a british clip of the Audi S4 -vs- BMW M3. This is a british version of Motortrend TV.
http://www.audilife.com/features/images/vids/TopgearM3_S4.wmv
Give us some more wonderful insight onto AudiUSA's rigorous training for salespeople. Inquiring minds want to know!
Audi has been in the process of changing dealership owners for several years now. Going away are the days where Audi dealers pigback with VW Lots...
Here in Texas there have been many changes. I wish you had a better experience. We pamper our customers here.
I have been in Management for several Dealers over the years, and truly feel the direction Audi is moving in is the best one both from a customer and employee stand point.
So much, I have stepped down the the sales force just to come on with them. I love it!!
If anyone wants to contact me directly by email, I will share product info and provide email contacts for several of our customers.
Obviously I am not soliciting for customers... why would you come here?? I would however like to educate on the product. I am very passionate about it.
Thank you for moving on and keeping it civil.
Phaeton is a great buy? What's it going to go for in 4 or 5 years?
Interesting thoughts.
XLR V could smash the AMG’s and Ms of the world. Given its Racer heritage, that thing could be a ‘Blackbird’ in sheep's clothing. As for the Northstar Supercharged/twin turbo they are working on, it could be anywhere Btw 425 and 500 from reports I have seen. Now that the M5 is 500 HP. I doubt Cadillac being American and obsessed with horse will go for anything less than over BMW. But I do not speak for them. But Just as they were out to outdo the M3 with the CTS V, I bet they are going for an M Kill with the STS V.
Now when you start talking about the CL65 and SL65, that’s a place where ‘no Cadillac has boldly gone before’. Until they launch the NorthStar V12 with the next Gen Escalade, rumored to have a Twin Turbo V variant, which is sloted to trickle down to a AWD DTS in the future, Then MB might take note of Cadillac.
But Le General is very serious and should not be taken lightly anymore.
The Phaeton will be the biggest mistake VW has made in the US.
While I like the styling, it can not stand up to others in its class, and will lose value rapidly....forget 4-5 yrs, more like 2-3 yrs to reach half value.
I really have no clue as to how good the quality of the car is because there are so few that have been sold. I agree with you completely that the resale will be horrible but if you hold the car for a long time the resale value is not important at all.
The Passat W8 in my opinion was already way out of VW’s league
That IS is like a fancy Corolla and it's not really much a presence in the segment at all. This 3 series has been out since '99 and is still the leader. It's re-sale value is exceptional.
Hey, BOB, how much money do you guys normally put in all those 7's that you're trading for?
Agreed, though, that the 3-series is the king. It's the best sports sedan you can buy for $30K to $40K on the market, with the G35 a close second.