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High End Luxury Cars

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  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Right now, based on pictures, the M45 is the pick.
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    I found the following TCO info from Edmunds - 5 year projected ownership costs.

    audi A8 $85,447
    lexus LS $70,200
    bmw 745i $79,470
    merc s430 $84,300
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I found the following information on used car values from Autotrader on actual selling prices for 2001 model year A6 4.2 vs. 2001 LS430.

    2001 LS430
    1)44K miles selling for $37K
    2)49K miles selling for $36K

    2001 A6 4.2 Quattro
    40K miles selling for $29K.

    So, I have come to 2 conclusions:
    1) Audi's do not sell for anywhere near sticker, except for maybe the A8, and specialty products such as the S8, S4, S6.
    2) Used car values for LS430's are higher than A6 4.2s.
  • il_62231il_62231 Member Posts: 2
    Why not just compare the A6 and GS cost to own and resale?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    A6 4.2Q 49K MSRP

    Edmunds TMV is $47K(I'm shocked, they are to be discounted)

    Total 5yr. cost of ownership: $61K

    BMW 530i
    MSRP 51K, TMV is $49.5K
    Total 5yr. cost of ownership: $55K.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Another thing, 2000 LS400s with about 20K to 30K more miles are selling for $1K more than 2000 A6 4.2 Quattros. And remember a 2000 LS400 was cheaper than the average 2001 LS430.

    So yes, the A6's resale value is not the best, in fact the BMW 5-series holds it's value better, so does the E-class, and so does the LS.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    I know, but every time I see the MB / Taurus in traffic, I notice the similarity right away. Except for a few details, the newest E isn't remotely like its predecessors.

    To me, the primary things that MB did to differentiate the E from the Taurus was to change the window lines a bit, move the rear door line back to meet the window line, have a straighter, more aggressive window line from the rear to front and of course, add two strips of clear plastic to the tail lights. The gas cap is square and there are some trim differences.

    The nose is more different because it had to accomodate the bubble lights and MB grill.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Here's another example showing the unparalleled resale value of Audi's:

    2000 A6 2.8Qs
    $26K for one with 40K miles

    $22K for one with 38K miles
    Both are certified at Audi dealers.

    2000 GS300
    $27K for one with 38K miles

    $25K for one with 31K miles

    And let's not forget the 2 probably had similar MSRPs when new. And the GS is considered the lame-o car in the Lexus line-up.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    footie,

    YOu know, I really doubt Mercedes-Benz used the Taurus as inspiration for the E-class. If it does look similar, it is probably coincidental.

    Besides, there are soo many styling cues on soo many different cars that are similar. Basically every mass market car has one line or a couple that look to similar to another cars.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    The updated S-class gets my vote, which surprises even me. I simply think it flows very well in that pic, but tellingly I can't quite recall what the car looks like from the back, I just have a recollection it is far more anonymous like that.

    The Infiniti looks great, too. It'd be very surprising to find it on my list of final candidates should I be on the market for a car right now, but I ought to point out my Infiniti ownership experience in 96 was rather forgettable.

    The Audi looks good except for that damn dark blob of a grille further accentuated by that chrome frame. Very heavy handed stuff, and if I bought one I'd ask a body shop to lose the chrome and paint the lower portion of the grille in body color.

    The Merc is too conservative for my taste, but that's always been what Mercs have been about in the end with the occasional exception of their upper rate coupes and convertibles.

    I find the new BMW designs utterly unattractive, BMW does not need such desperate attention-getting gimmicks - their cars ought to be more subtle and I think the extrovert design language is not going to benefit them mid-term. The angry insect look is downright infantile, I think. And, as stated before, I think it odd that people tore those light to pieces when they showed up in the Aztec, yet with BMW it's visionary and it'll eventually grow on us. Keep dreaming, Bangle, it's way too busy to age well.

    The Caddillac, as stated by others, is way to angular. It's in the BMW school of desperate attention getters that strive too hard to be different, and wind up looking like a middle-aged guy in Dolce&Gabbana teen-wear (if I ever try to pull that off please somebody shoot me).

    The Lex and the Acure are way too anonymous middle sized sedans. They're the Banana Republic white shirt blue tie and khakis equivalent.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Cadillac sort of needs distinctive styling attention to get back in the game. So the styling is appropriate, they need to get away from the Towncar/newyorker/deville luxury among ruins, land yacht, retired senior, Detroit iron, luxo boat, Rental limo, Vegas stretch limo, hearse, Senator Bob Dole, US ambassador to the UN, cold war America look to the mainstream international styling
  • audibobaudibob Member Posts: 33
    "
    Here's another example showing the unparalleled resale value of Audi's:

    2000 A6 2.8Qs
    $26K for one with 40K miles

    $22K for one with 38K miles
    Both are certified at Audi dealers.

    2000 GS300
    $27K for one with 38K miles

    $25K for one with 31K miles"

    Where do yo get these?
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    I must say that the reason Toyota is experiencing such terrific performance is the evolution of the Toyota Production and Toyota Management Systems based upon Lean.

    It is as much cultural/socio-economic as technical... even moreso cultural. These concepts have been fine tuned over the past few decades and are now part of Toyota's DNA.

    For the German's to achieve the level of dominance in quality they desire, there will need to be a culture shift in their Automotive sector. They have brilliant automotive engineers encumbered by management practices that have allowed the JDP, etc. rankings to hurt them.

    You can argue design all day long, but quality is quality. People want to own the finest for their hard-earned dollars/euros. "Finest" can be measured as pure luxury, performance, engineering for the dollar, platform solidity or whatever measure you wish. Nothing is worse than the buyer remorse that accompanies buying into a branded image of your favorite mfgr only to be let down by constant quality glitches (MB!).

    When you take a look at the effect of maintenance costs on the bottom lines of the German marques, it will become apparent that they have much room to improve. A serious cultural transformation will be required before the German marques realize the "ultimate" benefits of their engineering and design prowess.

    Toyota/Lexus has simply perfected this model to suit their corporate mission... note their recent profitability news for FY2003. If only Toyota could align their retail channel experience with the quality of their vehicles as Lexus has accomplished.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Man this place is HOT today! Yeah! Burn that mother down!!!!!!!!!
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Actually, the Taurus is the design inspiration for the new Buick LaCrosse! Check it out...
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Try autotrader or any used car website.

    BTW, if you're such a good salesperson you should know that Audi's go thru Auctions for less than it's competition. Isn't that one of the tools you use to appraise trade-ins(ie. auction guides)?

    Are Audi's still selling at MSRP today?
  • audibobaudibob Member Posts: 33
    "Message #6259 by maxhonda99 Jul 21, 2004 (4:24 pm)
    Here's another example showing the unparalleled resale value of Audi's: 2000 A6 2.8Qs $26K for ...
     
     Message #6257 Used car value by maxhonda99 Jul 21, 2004 (4:13 pm)
    Another thing, 2000 LS400s with about 20K to 30K more miles are selling for $1K more than 2000 A6 ..."

    "Try autotrader or any used car website.

    BTW, if you're such a good salesperson you should know that Audi's go thru Auctions for less than it's competition. Isn't that one of the tools you use to appraise trade-ins(ie. auction guides)?

    Are Audi's still selling at MSRP today? "

    Once more...you have stated numbers I can't verifiy. Where did you get those numbers???? Those specifically.
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  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    You must not have read many of the posts. The Lexus point of view is that the car's reliability, ride, comfort and appointments qualify it for the category. Seems to me they're right. The real fuss, ad nauseum, is whether it's better to have handling and performance (BMW) or style/status (MB) or the Lexus qualities. To date, no minds have been changed.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Warthog:

    Well..... the audi guy is starting to convince me....
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    "Well..... the audi guy is starting to convince me.... "

    ROFL
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    No the Buick La Crosse is a century with 2002 MB E class lights at the front and Pontiac G6 rear lights.
    Now you want a unique design? I will show you an excellent design theme Pal!
    http://www.supercars.net/PicFetch?pic=2004_buick_velite_concept-1- .jpg

    Now if only Le General would use the promised 2 Billion on this design theme
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Once more...you have stated numbers I can't verifiy. Where did you get those numbers???? Those specifically."

    Go to autotrader.com. DIdn't I say that in the post?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I don't know, for some reason some of these newcomers feel threathened by Lexus, so they feel they must bash and make up facts.

    Infiniti really doesn't have anything in the high end market which is competitive. I think the next Q45 will change that greatly.

    Acura doesn't have anything to compete against cars like the A8, 7-series, S-class, LS430, XJ8. Neither does Volvo. That's why you don't see them discussed in this forum.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    If you were really talking high end, there is Maserati Quadraporte, Bently, Maybach, S Class, Phantom, and probably nothing else out there.

    So, I think Infiniti is in the game with the G35. A8 is still not the Creme de la creme of Sedans
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Whats your point? Lexus interior materials are industry best. You think thats fake wood in the LS? Just because it doesnt offer a V-12 doesnt make it any less highend than 7, S, or A8.

    Audibob, $26K for an A6 2.8 is a big fat rip off. I've seen those cars for 17-19K. Also, how is the resale of the previous A8 compared to LS? You can get a '00 A8 for chump change. Those cars tank even faster than the A6 does.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Wow,
      Lots of posting going on today..I'm not even going to dignify the anti Lexus posts with a response. You must be living in a cave to not know Lexus is a high end player. They entered the market with a High end car (LS400) in 1990.
      
     I have yet to see cars that sell for sticker price. Even Mercedes is starting to discount their prices these days. (This comes from my experience with Herb Chambers MB Dealers).

    mbukukanyau,
      Nice posts on the Cadillac end of things. It's about time GM got their act together. I find the exterior designs too "loud" for my tastes, but those interior pictures I've seen are quite nice. I think it would be a big mistake to ignore them. That CTS offers a big punch for the money. I'd love for GM to build the Velite. What a nice looking car.

      That Lexus GS picture looked terrible. I hope that car looks better in person. I certainly hope it is not a harbinger of things to come. What is it with Lexus? Why can't they build a nice looking sedan? I'd say the E Class is the looker of the lot. Even with their current issues, the MB sedans are really nice looking.

    Well as always things are interesting here.

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Relative to before. Audibob must have finished work for the day. Between the posts he must have sold a lot of cars at sticker. Heck if it wasn't so late in the model year he would probably have commanded a premium of 10% over sticker.

    Wait till merc1 sees all these posts. He's not going to know where to start.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Merc1 will appriciate those who praised MB. I for one respect MB very much. But I support the oppressed underdog, that is Cadillac
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Definitely making some good moves. The Germans shouldn't undersetimate them. When will they learn? Glad to see Toyota not falling into that trap.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    Today's manheim auction report says that July avg. auction value for a 2004 A6 quattro is 32,150...........base price new looks like about 41 grand. That's not good.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Hi Audiobob

    You can get an idea of real world Audi values on eBay. There's a gorgeous (at least on the outside) 2001 Audi A6 2.8 on ebaymotors in your backyard in Texas.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1- &item=2484513273&category=6004

    26 hours to go, Buy It Now for $17,850!!!! Current bid is under $6K.

    There's another 01 in Ohio for $16.9 with more active bidding at $14K with 50K on it!

    Maybe you can pick these up and turn them for a quick profit!

    Good luck shopping!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Hahah. The fact that CR lists the A6 as a "risk" in its list of worst used cars, and its on a lot of lemon law "repeat offender" lists, doesnt help it in the used car market. Even though BMW and Mercedes reliability is not as good as Lexus, their prestige helps them command strong resale (though that is slipping lately). Audi doesnt have any prestige to fall back on, hence their cars tank like Jaguar and Volvo.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I feel all the luxury makes that were bit players are starting to make a run at the successful luxury brands-BMW, Mercedes & Lexus.
    Jaguar is coming on strong with the XJ8. Acura looks like it may actually make a legit competitor with the RL to the E-class, 5-series, GS-series. And Infiniti is definately moving on up with products like the G35 and, IMO, the next M45 is going to serve Infiniti well.

    Personally, one of the few mainstream luxury brands that are falling behind are Audi, Saab, and Volvo. Audi's sales in recent years have been floating around the same level while BMW, Benz, Infiniti and Lexus keep ticking up. Due to stagnant sales, they are going to dump the cheap-o A3 on our shores. Volvo seriously needs to replace the aging S80, ASAP. And Saab has/is losing alot of it's uniqueness with products like the Trailblazer rebadge the 9-7x, and 9-2.

    I also think the new STS is extremely competitive on the luxury side and the performance side. If only they could fix the CTS's interior.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I am not sure whether the message is to counter something I said or to show consensus, but I agree with everything you say whole-heartedly.

    Toyota's focus on quality means that they emphasize "process" as a company. Those of us who work in high tech know that process is critical to quality. Toyota is known to have elevated process research, improvement and adherence to a religion. Those of us that work in high tech also know that sticking to optimized process in everything a company does is expensive, and requires investment. Toyota never shies away from that. They put their money where their priorities are.

    Several German companies thought they had the process part down pat, thus pay lip service to it, but have not invested into it as a priority. Design engineers can be as brilliant as you want - without disciplined, process oriented and constantly optimized manufacturing in the back end all the design expertise will not result in quality. Known management fact. And German companies have clearly emphasized product and branding over process, in the end.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Your last sentence speaks volumes about MB and BMW. They prioritized process first and marketing second in the past. But in the last 5-10 years they have reversed. MB really pushes status - witness their commercials with stars standing by the cars they bought. That is really childish when you think about it. It almost insults your intelligence. Buy our car because look who else is buying it. I grew out of being influenced by stuff like that when I ended my teen years. Well maybe a few years later.

    By the way - with 100-200 posts today - your "beautiful women" post takes top prize. Loved it and so perfectly true.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting points, though I question how long the XJ8 will be able to survive in a more long term field. It already cant match Germany and Lexus on features, and its a brand new car. Jaguar has not shown that they've got what it takes to keep up with the heavyweights, which means 6-7 years max model runs these days. I dont think we'll see a completely redesigned XJ8 six years from now. If history is any indication, they'll let it sit on the market for 7-8 years, and then refresh it while the rest of the industry passes it by. Jag also cant survive with one competitive model. XK needed a redesign, (and a new platform its THIRTY years old!!) not an air intake. The X-type and S-type need redesigns also.

    Acura's got a shot, but it depends on how much they are willing to capitolize on their current momentum, and how much Honda is willing to take risks in this market, which they traditionally shy away from. If Acura wants to stay in it, the MDX needs a redesign asap, and the RL is going to need either a hybrid or V8 model.

    Infiniti and Cadillac are coming out swinging, and the establishment had better pay attention. Past successes doesnt mean they cant get crushed if they rest on their laurels.

    The A4 is a great car, but one that desperately needs more horsepower. If given the A6's new V6, it could be a much more competitive player. That will still only leave Audi with essentially 2 cars that can actually sell in volume, and the general public's reception to the new A6 is unknown at this point.

    I honestly dont count Saab and Volvo in the same leagues as the above mentioned. The 9-3 is a luxed up Chevy Malibu, the 9-2X is a luxed up Subie WRX, and the 9-7X will be YET ANOTHER Trailblazer rebadge. Apparently Chevy\GMC\Buick just werent enough versions of the same truck. If the General plans to doom Saab to the same fate as Buick and Oldsmobile, they're sure doing a fantastic job.

    Ford has thankfully kept more of a hands off approach to Volvo, but they desperately need new product also. The S80 isnt even the worst offender. The C70 is. That car dates all the way back to '97, two years earlier than the S80, and the C70s front end and interior components come from the S70, and even older car, which itself was derived from a still yet even older Volvo. The S40 is a good start, now they need to scrap and redo the rest of the line as well.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Yesterday I received the latest AutoWeek, and they have a new comparison section. This week they tested an S500 vs. a Phaeton. Interesting to note that the Benz had its instruments go dead (with a message saying "Drive to Workshop"), although later they came back on, and that it had a blast of steam shoot from the engine, resulting in the car being shut off and taken away on a flatbed.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    If true, its a new low for MB. Merc1 is not going to like that.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    In my opinion the cars used in magazine tests are pushed to much higher limits than cars in everyday use and would be more apt to have things go wrong.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    That the 1970’s & 1980’s Detroit excuse. That well, you did not use the car as the average family user would. Well, you know the rest of the story. Only now is Detroit seeing the light.
    And Germans are headed that route. You cannot explain stalling in a 100 K plus car. There are no excuses for that sort of conduct. The thing smoked water
  • quemfalaquemfala Member Posts: 107
    Cadillac for me! Reason -- American! and -- sexy, too!
    and, Life would definitely be better at the beach
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Probably retired on his full boat commissions.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm still waiting for those pictures of Lexus styrofoam insulation.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Probably lost his commissions due to quality issues on some Audis that Customers returned. Those things are usually at the bottom of quality surveys, below VW the mothership sometimes

    Doe it matter if it’s Styrofoam, or does it matter that Lexus is the industry standard in quietness? Only Cadillac and Buick come close
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Nah, I think he has a flood of customers today that are buying cars at full sticker!! The customers are knocking the doors down to buy them Audi's!!

    And just to keep the record straight, I don't even hate Audi's.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Trade in the 02 ES300 and get a car that moves you emotionally.

    Try a BMW 330i or a Infiniti G35. They are 2 very nice rides.

    The ES300 is basically a luxury sedan. Like most luxury sedan, it isolates you from the outside world, and therefore doesn't "move you".
    You should have been able to tell that on the test drive before you bought it.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    On behalf of the suddenly absent audibob ...... Hey, you know what the guy probably has the day off and doesn't have a computer at home or just got done watching the Cubs game and is snot hanging drunk. He's in the car business. He gets a day off and is entitled to it.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Member Posts: 120
    Maybe, you should go and see audibob about an emotionally moving Audi product ....... great resale, too. After all he was the one that clued you in on the foam thing.

    But, I think he's off today.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Love it! Will definitely add that to my street vernacular.

    LMAO
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