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High End Luxury Cars

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  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Make sure you catch the automobile section of the NY Times this Sunday. Got mine today with the Saturday paper. They reviewed the 6 series. Very negative review with many of the things you have been saying. I started to wonder if you wrote it or influenced it.

    One thing that I remember and now understand better than ever was the quote about i-drive. They said "brilliant interface, but it has no business being in a car". I'd put in "when it works" after the brilliant interface line. The MMI I had in the Audi rebooted itself 15 times on a 100 mile trip - that is 15 times once I started to keep track of it. It did it at least 3 or 4 times before I started tracking it. It froze the radio and blew away the nav and when it rebooted put a foreign language station on. But the best of all was that on one reboot I had finally had enough. So I pulled off onto the shoulder of the road and shut the engine hoping that would cure its ailment. To my amazement the MMI wouldn't shut down. It kept working with the key out of the ignition. It was actually draining the battery! Then of course I had some trouble restarting the car but finally I did. After a minute I shut down the car and the MMI shut with it this time. Then I restarted and pulled back on the road, the MMi worked - for 5 minutes - then shut down and started the rebooting process all over again - many times. It obviously needs some kind of software fix. But my take on it is simple. It is needles, useless and downright stupid for this technology to be in a car - so I know firsthand what the NY Times reporter was saying. I fiddled with it for so long that it hit me how little I was paying attention to the road. Therein is the real danger and stupidity of these interfaces. They increase risk and deter you from the real driving experience - sometimes without you realizing it till after the fact. Plus they put you in a real bad mood. And that female voice on the nav system - well - I'm not going there. But she should be fired immediately. George Seinbrenner looks tame next to her.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Thanks for the heads up on the 6 in the NYT… will definitely hawk it.

    The following looks like an edited version of the S spy shots we saw a couple of months ago. It looks good but it's obviously photoshopped. I say hire the photoshop gurus as consultants… the car world would be a much prettier place.

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6776

    Hey, check out my latest mini review of the 2006 3-series in the "Good, Bad, or Ugly..." BMW thread. Would like to know what you think. There's an abundance of spy shots floating around that appear credible.

    designman "Good, Bad or Ugly - Current and Future styling trends of BMW" Aug 14, 2004 10:52am
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I thought someone wrote the 3 series held up well in the re-design. That thing is another wreck. BMW has lost its mind and its soul went with it.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Those side creases on all new BMW designs look as if all their cars were originally conceived as SUVs, and then get put through a press to lower their height and turn them into sportier cars. They look powerful but pudgy, like undisciplined athletes in the off-season. Somebody please save BMW design: the cars look Japanese at a time when the Japanese are starting to master the European design language...
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well said except for one thing. I'd like to know how the "Japanese are starting to master the European design language." Tell me you're kidding. Japanese styling is hit and miss, mostly miss. And there is no such thing as a European design language anymore. It's now a global cacophony, a Tower of Babel.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "They look powerful but pudgy"

    An LS 430 looks pudgy, not the new 3 series prototype.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Even the BMW diehard who reviewed the 6-series in the NY Times said the BMW's needed to go on diets. His take on what BMW stands for these days - "Bring The Weight".
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What is the cause for them turning away? Bad cars or personal reasons.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That journalist is entitled to his/her opinion, but there are others that disagree. I'm not sure I would weight the a NYT car review above Edmunds.

    I could find others that contradict that review as well, but why bother.

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/bmw/6series/100382975/review.html- ?tid=edmunds.n.reviewmmindex.content.num3.0.bmw*
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    the review you post a link to states "its shape fails to elicit universal enthusiasm". no one doubts the dynamic excellence, but even a friend of mine that owns one says he did not buy it for the looks.
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    I have been watching the spy pics evolve from the very beginning and I think that the newest ones (the long wheel base in white) is just stunning. I love the rear and the side profile is really beautiful. My only concern is the front. Overall design though, Mercedes has a winner IMO.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    pablo...that statement is so general that it is true. I don't know of anyone car that elicits universal enthusiam on every point. Even when you say Porsche...it is followed by spartan unless you want to spend big bucks.

    So that fact the 6 series fails to "elicit universal enthusiam" is a true statement because all people are not expected to like everything.
  • designodesigno Member Posts: 14
    Right. My problem with the design is the front. Somehow, it looks too similar to the current generation (maybe even cheaper looking), and really has a striking resemblance to the new Nissan's out there, part. the Altima.

    BTW: Has my post w/ the link been deleted?
  • designodesigno Member Posts: 14
    I don't know about the interior, though. Based on those one or two pics, they look WAY too similar to the 7-Series. It's almost like MB copied that. Why? I personally love the current S-Class interior. Hopefully, the interior and the front will change/look nicer in official MB photos.
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    Yea, I don't know what to think about that interior photo. I'm sure it will look similar, but better. I hope so anyway. But the overall shape and such will be BMW 7er, IMO.
  • designodesigno Member Posts: 14
    Have heard through several people regarding a new MB lease for the '05 S-Class. Apparently, it's a two-year lease for a S430, S500 and will bridge owners to the '07 S-Class. Does anyone here have any info about that?
  • lexus0622lexus0622 Member Posts: 27
    What's happening, Pat? Where is everyone?
  • designodesigno Member Posts: 14
    this place used to be packed!!!! What happened to merc1? this place looks dead to me. HELLLL-LOOOOOO?????? Anyone here??? I am amazed.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Maybe we're all busy buying new SUVs for our wives.. :-)
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    I guess no one has anything to say when we are not talking about silly comparisons or brand wars...
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I recently traded my RX330 on a SL55. If I have lots of problems, Merc1 is going to be in big trouble!! I haven't owned a Mercedes since 1993. I have only driven a couple hundred miles--no problems so far. I miss the Lexus navigation and backup camera. Obviously, the SL is more fun to drive. This is my first convertible since owning a 1989 Cadillac Allante. I will keep you posted regarding quality control.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    All you need to say is the 89 allante beats the 2004 SL55 and this place will light up like an electrical storm.

    Where is merc1 - I'm getting worried about him.

    Pablo - any decisions on the suv?
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Wife decided to keep hers. She wanted to get a new ML, and since hers still looks like new, we decided it wasn't worth it. She has her eyes set on totally swithcing in 2 years: she wants a Porsche Boxster S for her 40th. I support her choice whole-heartedly. :-)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Maybe Merc just started the car and pointed it toward Mexico.

    ;-)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    With or without Norton as the chaffeur?

    Heh, Heh Heh ya dirty old _______
  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    Cadillac beats BMW and Mercedes.
    http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan12e_20040812.htm
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Great thing about the internet, is that anybody can post anything and anyone can believe it. :)
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I can see why people would favor the Cady over the BMW 5 and Mercedes E.

    But at those prices it is no where near the LS430 that is loaded with both luxury and safety features and loaded up costs the same or less, and is, of course, far more dependable.
  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    Yeah I know. It's like Timex beating Rolex huh?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Maybe just like Rolex and not beaten by anyone, at least not in the area of dependability.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Reminds me of when Lincoln LS came out, and some overenthusiastic journalists said it outclassed 5 series! Without objective side-by-side testing, some people will make any claims they feel like, and some people will believe them.
  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    So sorry to have besmirched these hallowed halls of pomposity by the mere mention of GM.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    On the other hand, some people will dismiss other cars before they even see or drive them.

    Because God forbid, American cars should NEVER be touted over German cars...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    OTOH IT's all opinion anyway. It sacreligious to think that an American car that is not as well built as a German car, to be in second place.
  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    I presume that you are saying that the Cadillac is not as well built as a German car? Correct me if I am wrong. If I have presumed correctly, have you examined the Cadillac STS to see if it is indeed of inferior build quality compared to a German car?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually it's not for me to judge, but I have my opinion. Let's say BMW consistently ranks extremely high in the JD Powers IQ satisfaction surveys. So regardless of what you or I might debate, the survey perhaps conveys more impartiality than either of us.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    A reporter is interested in speaking with former BMW owners or enthusiasts who have found an alternative to BMW. If you would be interested in speaking with this reporter about why you now prefer a different vehicle, please forward your contact information to Pam Krebs, Edmunds.com PR, at pkrebs@edmunds.com. Please respond by end-of-day Friday, August 27. Thank you.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    Seeing as the Cadillac STS is a new model, there is no reliabilty or satisfaction information on it yet. However, it is a fact that certain German cars are wanting in the reliabilty stakes including BMW and Mercedes. Just take a visit to the Maintainance and Repair site of Edmunds. Also, Consumer Reports has not been so enchanted about the reliability of German cars either.

    Reliabilty and build quality go hand in hand. In fact, latest reports show that American cars are ahead of European cars when it comes to reliability.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Reliabilty and build quality go hand in hand. In fact, latest reports show that American cars are ahead of European cars when it comes to reliability."

    Initial quality and 5 year reliability are fairly far apart. Yes Buick beat BMW and Honda also, but Buick also beat Caddy. I don't remember but, I'm sure someone can look it up, the reliability Caddy is just on the north side of average. OTOH you could say BMW has started introducting a CADRE of new models also, so let's not play this game until the year 2010.

    The Americans still haven't gotten it right. We won't be happy until we pay $75 to fill up a Prius, let alone a gas guzzling hemi.
  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    From Consumer Reports - Audi A4, reliability has been disappointing - Audi A6, below average reliability - BMW 3-series, not recommended reliability has fallen below average - Mercedes C-Class, reliability has fallen below average - Mercedes SLK - below average reliabilty.

    Volkwagen Golf - worse than average reliabilty, Volkswagen Jetta - reliability has dropped below average, Volkswagen New Beetle - below average reliabilty.

    So pray, do tell, what must the Americans learn from the Germans????
  • poppi68poppi68 Member Posts: 3
    I test drove the 745 Saturday and the 430 yesterday. I'm looking to purchase one of these automobiles by years end may the best manufacturer win.

    Benefits of each: 745 fits my personality; the 430 is on top of everyone's list and the E320 CDI...phenomenal gas mileage.

    The 745 did not dissapoint: I smiled 4 times during the test drive. I absolutely love the car.

    I was disappointed by the Lexus. It is a technological marvel; however, while I was driving I thought to myself, "This car doesn't have a soul!" The nav system put my ML500's to shame. The lighting was fantastic. The back-up mirror was a nice idea but it takes some getting used to. Acceleration is fine if you floor it but handling was terrible. I remember thinking, "I may get this car in a decade or two." Oh yeah, I'm only 34 and I still love to "drive" so the Lexus is not for me at this time.

    I'll let you know how the E320 CDI does after I test it.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If you go to consumerreports.org and link over to recommended autos you will see the list. Note: the 3 series has a red-recommended check mark next to it, but Caddy ain't even on the list.

    So I'm not sure of what you are saying, except to say Caddy is starting to get into the game. With that I agree. However, it'll take more than one review to say Caddy has triumphed over all.
  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    I'm not pushing Cadillac but I do believe that German engineering is not what it used to be. Maybe like everybody else in the cut-throat auto manufacturing business they are cutting corners. Also, their driver interfaces as in the BMW iDrive are a joke. A great source of failure is in their electrical systems. Too complicated. Germans cannot tell the difference between a car and a computer anymore. They make wonderful engines but the wiring is crap and the ignition module fails just as you are merging on the highway.

    That being said, if I were in the market for a luxury car, my choice would be the Cadillac STS. It has looks and everything else I've always wanted in a car. Sure, it'll have problems but I'll know that GM will be nearby to fix it for me with less hassles than if it were a Mercedes.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Okay I understand, even agree with *SOME* of what your saying. I do think the generic statement Germans are unreliable doesn't hold water. My German vehicle has had one warranty repair in 2.5 years, loose weatherstripping. I just took in it for it's service, the prior service was May 2003.

    So I'm not really aboard the all Germans make unreliable vehicles wagon.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Better than Lexus, Infiniti & Acura, after 5 years of use.

    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0408/27/e03-254553.htm

    I think horror stories of German abysmal reliability record is overblown. Not many would pay so much for used BMW's!
  • 79377937 Member Posts: 390
    Not only GM is giving incentives. Take a look at this!

    http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/pf/autos/bc.autos.freecar.reut/in- dex.htm?cnn=yes
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That's old news. The only manufacturer that these days doesn't give incentives is Porsche.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I can think of a few others that don't give incentives: Aston-Martin, Ferrari, Lambo, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Panoz. I'm sure their are a few more, but i'm sure you meant mass market manufacturer's that don't offer incentives.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Mariner:

    There is a big difference between Forecast and Reality...Look back 5 years and get REAL results.

    NOTE: None of the ultra Luxury Models were in the Forecast ...NO S class...No 7 Series...No LS.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Correct - I was excluding the ultra-high-end manufacturers.
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