High End Luxury Cars

kdshapiro · August 2004

Also not that:

Aston-Martin, Ferrari, Lambo, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Panoz.

were not on the list.

ljflx · August 2004

That article is meaningless. It is saying future value retained not past history. In 2001 the S500 I was looking at was supposed to retain 67% of its value after 3 years and 36k miles. Know what? It retained 55%. The E-430 I briefly looked at did even worse. The LS430 was supposed to retain 62% and retained 64%. In reality most people base those future retention value forecasts on lease retention values and that means it's dependent on the conservatism and/or aggressiveness of the auto mfrs. High lease retention values is one way of subsidizing leases without discouting the MSRP. But - as the saying goes - "you can pay me now or you can pay me later". In the case of the 2001 S-class someone paid for that 12% miss. As for BMW with all the $299 3 series leases and $799 7 series leases I see its obvious they are betting heavily on high retention values. It won't happen and they, their bank or their insurance company or a combo of all three will pay the freight.

mariner7 · August 2004

Ferraris and such shouldn't be in the resale list, because they're often bought for investment & pleasure, not transportation. The resale market of an Enzo depends much more on the stock market than its inherent quality. It has more in common with the market for fine paintings.

mattox, how do you know S/7 were not in the survey? Did you read it anywhere? I didn't!

Perhaps they project future 5 year old BMW's will retain the most value, because current used BMW's retain more value than anything else. Lexus might or might not pass BMW in resale 5 years from now. But how come you think your guess is better than the professionals who're paid to project these things?

These are independent firms that estimate these things. They have access to a lot more data than anecdotal evidence of you & me. Anecdotal evidence can be very misleading, you can always find a Cavalier in mint condition that retains better value than a beat up LS430 of the same age! It's hard, but you can!

ljflx · August 2004

I'm going by averages not any individual car and from past investigation into auto industry data bases, on potential acquisitions, I know a thing or two about how the industry works. But I have never checked a 5 series resale value so maybe the past 5 years will show a high retention value. I honestly don't know. But if we put our faith in the hands of these guys who predict things the Dow should be around 15,000 now and the nasdaq around 7500. As for cars I know the 7 series drops like a rock in a lake with terrible depreciation. In general though I think BMW gives you some great values - far better and more reasonable than you get on MB's. The 3-series is a great car and very reasonably priced as is the 5-series. That's part of the reason why it's so hard to unseat either one from their perch.

michael_mattox · August 2004

Mariner:

There is a list of cars in various catagories over on the right side of the article you linked us to....Non of the Luxury cars we discuss on this board were mentioned as I said.

rgsw · August 2004

Hooray!!!!!!

rgsw · August 2004

The dealer filled up my 2004 Lexus LS430 empty gas tank with premium when he replaced the transmission and fuel pump last week.

kdshapiro · August 2004

Stopped at a light today, a black 6 series Ci with a tan interior pulled up next to me, with the top down. I had about two minutes to admire the car. It was drop-dead gorgeous. I purposely drove slow so the driver would pull around me and I could get a better look at the back.

There was not one line on the car I didn't love.

There have been some previous posts suggesting this car looks like a Sebring. To anyone who sees this car in person and thinks it's a Sebring take-off, my response is these people have been sniffing gas fumes when they fill up their cars.

kdshapiro · August 2004

I'm surprised nobody commented on announcement that Jaguar is cutting production due to slow US demand.

princeabubu · August 2004

I totally agree with you about the 6. Photos do not do this car justice. The convertible is totally gorgeous. I haven't seen the coupe in person, but I'd say it probably has equal presence.

Was th announcement for all Jag cars or just the XJ?

pablo_l · August 2004

One of my best friends owns a 645 in exactly the same colors you describe. I still do not like the car - drives smooth, but its design is incoherent and does not appeal to me. Personal taste, and the 6 series to me is an acquired taste even for some of its owners - my friend would be the first to say he did not buy it for looks.

kdshapiro · August 2004

"my friend would be the first to say he did not buy it for looks."

I fell instantly in love with looks. I would never get an $80K car I didn't love inside and out. Different strokes for different folds.

lovemyclk · August 2004

Some folks enjoy Degas, some Picasso. I remember when the 1st Audi 5000's hit the streets - I thought "bathtub on wheels"! Sure don't feel that way now. Different strokes...

The new BMW's have a certain "presence" on the road that so many others do not. IMO, their biggest challenge is with the driver/vehicle interface. I miss the cockpit feel I have in my e39.

As long as they are engineered with excellence and built with quality. I wish the only points of contention were the designs!

merc4ever88 · September 2004

Mercedes All the way. U people kept forgeting that mercedes always the first one that invent stuffs all other manufactures just copy them, for examples ABS, ESP and BAS.

sv7887 · September 2004

Hi All,
That post ought to get the juices flowing in the forum again..It's not about who brings it to market first, but who makes it work reliably. MB granted has been great with being first, but Lexus is doing smart business. It's probably why Toyota/Lexus is in the best shape financially. Why spend all that R/D money? Let someone else do it! What you consider "Best" is simply a subjective argument.

SV

warthog · September 2004

If so, it appears he failed. Where's Merc1?

houstonmerc · September 2004

I am considering getting a 2005 XJ8, and particularly like the idea of the L version. On Jaguar's web site, the L is listed as being 5 inches longer, but the dimensions are otherwise basically the same as the normal version, except for rear legroom being increased by 0.6 inches. This doesn't make sense.

For the BMW 7 and Audi A8 (both cars I like but can't afford) the L versions are 5 inches longer and that translates into 5 inches more rear seat legroom. Has anyone sat in a XJ8 L or have any ideas on this?

michael_mattox · September 2004

Mercedes is also the 1st. to have to go back to the drawing board to try and get that stuff to stop breaking down.

houstonmerc · September 2004

I am considering getting a 2005 XJ8, and particularly like the idea of the L version. On Jaguar's web site, the L is listed as being 5 inches longer, but the dimensions are otherwise basically the same as the normal version, except for rear legroom being increased by 0.6 inches. This doesn't make sense.

For the BMW 7 and Audi A8 (both cars I like but can't afford) the L versions are 5 inches longer and that translates into 5 inches more rear seat legroom. Has anyone sat in a XJ8 L or have any ideas on this?

anthonyp · September 2004

I hope Merc is o.k, and has not gotten in a wreck or anything like Pres. Clinton..

It has been pouring rain up here in Western N.C.The Lexus has not had a leak, but the road under it is in bad shape, and had to move it to the otherside of the river so it doesn`t get swept away. Miserable conditions the last few days Tony

lenscap · September 2004

Two bits of news from Mercedes this week:

1. They are eliminating free maintenance during the warranty period starting with 2005 models. The program was launched four years ago. Mercedes claims owners often got confused because normal wear and tear items still had to be paid for. Dealers will also start offering maintenance packages.

2. All-wheel drive is being offered at no charge on 2005 S430 and S500 models to help boost sales before the redesign comes in early 2006. Although it is normally a $2,900 option, the S430's price has gone up by $1,050 for 2005, and the S500 by $1,200.

ljflx · September 2004

Maybe he bought a Lexus!

Seriously - Let's hope he's OK. He's a young guy and the board's not the same without him.

Tony the bad news is that Ivan looks also to be destined to hit the gulf or even the west coast of Florida as a category 4 or 5 storm late this weekend and will also ride up the eastern seaboard. Most of the rain has missed me to the west, north (4-7" in the NYC area) and east as it has come in off the atlantic. Be glad there haven't been any tornados as Frances has caused around 100 of them.

syswei · September 2004

I miss merc1 too. I think his internet access was only at work...one possibility is that his MCI manager caught on to his extracurricular acivities and put a stop to them.

kdshapiro · September 2004

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/103035/articl- e.html?tid=edmunds.h..wkedmunds.firstdrive.1g

maxhonda99 · September 2004

According to Automotive News website, every Lexus sedan is going to redone by Fall 2006. The short bit I read goes on to say they are going after BMW loyalists.

designman · September 2004

Spent a week in the Hamptons recentlybeen many years since. I forgot how much dough is out there. We are considering a summer home but the prices there are ridiculous. And to think of how we were intimidated by price spikes in the early 80s. Would have, could have, should have the old battle cry of those who don't pull the trigger on judicious investment.

Anyway, I couldn't help but think of all the conversations around here about Mercedes hitting the skids. You'd never know it out there. BMW and Lexus sedans were hard-to-find. Most of my BMW sightings were previous-generation 7s. Lexus SUVs and X5s were abundant but I hardly saw any LSs. Lots of Ss, SLs, CLK cabs, 911s, gorgeous vintage SLs and more than enough Ferraris. I remember plenty of Jags from yesteryear but didn't see many this time.

Ljflx caught Frankie Valli in concert in Westhampton one night. The old goat doesn't have the enduring panache of Jagger but it was worth it nonetheless. He did most of the songs I was weaned on but to my dismay he didnt do "Marlena" br-r-r-r-r-oop dupe doobie doop, doop dee doobie doo. He was beckoning people to sing along but the crowd was littered with reserved types who seemed to be above that sort of thing. But this boy and his goyle (wife) who grew up in Dion country were right on it trying to hit his high notes, voices cracking like drunken sailors. It seems he even brought the songs down a few keys because they'd probably have to cart him away in an ambulance if he tried to hit those original high notes.

ljflx · September 2004

Dawn is still my favorite along with Rag doll. Did you happpen to see him on the Sopranos in his brief stints as a mobster? I actually was cleaning up my basement and found my old LP's with the golden greatest hits album last week as well as every Beatle and Stones LP. It made me go out and buy a turntable over the weekend.

Hey what's your read on the new 3 series and the new Lexus GS?

I don't buy Lexus going after BMW. Why mess with the great success they've had. They will tune-up the GS and IS handling and sportiness and definitely improve car sales a lot (probably at some expense to BMW) but I don't see an image change to chase down BMW. Dumb business and I think what their intent is was misunderstood. By the way I don't like the new 3 series at all and wonder how anyone sees it as a lower Bangle effect. To me it's a shrunken 5 series and the crease (that's what it looks like to me) on the side looks cheap. Bangle must hate smooth even flowing cars and he must love the disjointed look. I do know a few people though that hated the old 7 series style and think the new one gives it the massive look that a big lux car needs. But the funny anecdote to that is these same people hate that same bulgy look on the 5 series. Go figure. Personally I think the 7 is beautiful up to the front passenger door and then all hell breaks loose. But in the rear view mirror it looks great.

mbzlvr · September 2004

Yes--found out after I just leased a 2005 S430. I got used to the Maintenance program with my 2000 E320 and assumed the program continued. Just didn't make sense that MB would discontinue this program.

Also, the sales rep didn't mention about the 4matic no cost option. When I went back and asked him, he claimed that he didn't even know about this. I had to show him the MB USA website! Yeah, sure.
Ricky
Monrovia, California, USA

designman · September 2004

The GS is bulbous. I think the 3 styling is much better than the rest in the BMW line but is still deficient. If Lexus goes after BMW I hope it's with regard to ride, drive and handling. Heaven help us if they emulate styling. From the looks of the 06 GS I can see similarities to the 7 in girth. But I think it will be a marketing strategy more than anything else. I can understand people who like Lexus luxury not wanting association with BMW.

There aren't too many 4 Seasons songs I don't like. If forced to pick I'd have to go with Working My Way Back to You. Frankie's favorite was Your Just Too Good To Be True which was his first song when he went out on his own.

livinbmw · September 2004

2002's "automobile magazine's Man of the Year" ......He's changed the look of the car but not the character. The skin of the car can be another design element or simply pulled taut and stretched around the cars proportions. Sculpted skin..........several years ahead BMW will look dynamically progressive and cars like the 7 and Z4 will appear more mainstream.

ljflx · September 2004

If that happens and others follow suit I'll buy my car at lease end. Someone on that magazine staff, or mabe all of them need psychiatric help - pronto. But I doubt you are right and I doubt BMW will stay with this style on their next redesign. Did Bangle do anything with the 1 class? I'd guess not as that is a good looking car and more classic BMW.

designman - He does put a lot of emotion into that song and also "my eyes adored you" which is a great song and what I would have guessed was his favorite. I also would be hard pressed to find a Seasons song I didn't like. I also love Stay and even love the way Jackson Brown did it.

oac · September 2004

Like Merc1, I have been gone for quite a while (seemed I was not missed, which is cool....). Business trips have taken so much of my time. And to top it off, company now involved in a fresh M&A (our Bus-Dev guys are keeping us very busy and on our toes). Now will have even less time for indulging on Edmunds.

Have seen so many MBs here in San Diego especially the high-end ones. Lots of SLs, CLs and CLKs. Not to mention countless 3s and 5s everywhere. Lexus is holding its own pretty well here too. But luxury cars/luxury SUVs/high-end sport cars are huge around here. Way too many nouveau rich guys and gals living here. We are a city defined by what we drive rather than what drives us ! At least thats being my experience in my 6 years living in this city.

With so much talk of the 2006 S, has anyone sighted a 2006/2007 LS preview car anywhere ? Does anyone know when Lexus will start a roadshow for the new LS ?

In all, there's not being much change here, which is a good thing. From time to time, as work lessens over the next few months, I'll stop in here and put in a word or two. Hope you all keep things civil as usual... wink wink... And best to Merc1 wherever he may be.

livinbmw · September 2004

Looks like the XJ8 is going to be in the 60ish MSRP range. You say that you can't afford a 'bimmer or and Audi. Here's an idea. Project the total cost of ownership on the Jag and see what kind of value that it will be in an overall sense rather than just MSRP. Not knowing what attracts you to the Jaguar(style?) you may find that some other cars in the segment might offer you a lower cost of ownership, better quality, better performance, etc. In fact at www.intellichoice.com they rate the XJ8 as a "poor" overall value. The BMW 745Li is rated as "excellent" overall value.

Personally, I'd take a Lexus or a even a 545 over the Jag in a heartbeat.

designman · September 2004

Oac... Ah-h-h some warm and fuzzies from my man Rambo. Actually I did miss you. With you and Merc on hiatus I was going to start pulling out old Ali-Frazier videos ;-) Good luck with your work.

Livinbmw... Bangle as man of the year is dubious. I think Hitler was once Time magazine's man of the year, now he's in history's trash bin. If Bush got into body piercing and shaved his head he'd make man (person) of the year also. This is a bad, bad period in BMW history and I believe this will be reflected as such in the future.

Ljflx... Wow, I think the 1-series is another freak of nature. However, I always say the smaller the car, the freakier it can be so by that axiom it may have worked. It's the big luxury cruisers that should be buttoned-down conservative. Hey, remember Freedomland? Saw the Seasons there!

livinbmw · September 2004

Bangle and Hitler? Jesus...

Interesting note.......Bangle's father worked for an aircraft engine manufacturer in Wisconsin that supplied the engines for the P-51 Mustangs that US pilots flew against the BMW Luftwaffe engines that were used by Hitler's pilots in WWII.

Such a "bad period" in which they have surpassed Mercedes in world wide sales.... BMW sets the industry benchmark for both product development and marketing.

kdshapiro · September 2004

If I were to have advised BMW, the one piece of advice I would have given them would be to shorten the engine development cycles.

The rumored engines being released in the next few years, should have already been options.

livinbmw · September 2004

I assume that you mean for US production as other engine upgrades have surfaced elsewhere..... the V8 is new with revolutionary valvetronic technology that others must now try to mimic. That's the engine first introduced in the new 7 and now available in the 6, 5 and X5.

The 6 cylinders are probably where there could have been some more recent upgrades. Other makes have ntroduced engines that boast big HP's (in direct response to the segment dominant 3 sereies) but still nothing meets BMW's overall smoothness and performance in my book even if the HP doesn't appear on par with some others in the segment. The 3.0 is still the premier (ULTIMATE) inline 6 in the industry but an overdue upgrade would create a little buzz.

Of course, the Formula 1 inspired V10 is right around the corner.....HOLD ON!!!

kdshapiro · September 2004

Yep -- the description of it sounds awesome. But I would guess the price would be just as awesome.

ljflx · September 2004

I'll have to take a closer look at the 1-series but I didn't think it had that crazy BMW new look.

Freedomland! We must be the same age. I went there a few times when I was real young. Wasn't that near the Whitestone or Throgs Neck bridge?

livinbmw · September 2004

yes, it's "bangleized"

ljflx · September 2004

Are they going to change the name to Banglarian Motor Works. It may be appropriate.

livinbmw · September 2004

The branding theme will not change. It's never been and will not become a "car for the masses". It still does everything that it is supposed to do. Similar ideas about the product existed with the advent of the 2002 model in 1968. Millions and millions will miss out on what the brand delivers....the majority loses. It's not intended for everyone and more than any other car company, BMW leads.

oac · September 2004

It's never been and will not become a "car for the masses" by this I suppose you are refering to the 1-series, yes ? Cos BMW cars and trucks are designed for the masses.

Designman: Thanks for the warm, fuzzy welcome. I am no Rambo, I just play one on cyber space....

You can be anything you want to be on this faceless medium. As to work, it is such a pain these days. More M&A, more work and more stress for everyone. This is the 5th acquisition in 4 years. Ever gonna stop ? I guess not. If you cannot grow organically, then acquire. That's the American way !!! Sheesh... Makes talking/chatting/arguing about cars so much refreshing

:):)

ljflx · September 2004

OAC - been there and done that M&A work too much. I was in charge most of the time and you make the money when you get acquired not the other way around. Sure you do real well acquiring but its not the same and the pressure is tremendous. Got tired of it and am now in business with two other guys buying something my old company passed on. Now my old company wants to buy my business and I told them its 2-3 years too early. It's great to get free from corporate America. Hang in there and look for that opening out like I did.

BMW's not designed for the masses? Come-on now. 3-series leases are barely more than V6LE Camry leases and cheaper than some V6 XLE ones. That's mass territory. Make the BMW legend be whatever you want but its business is selling cars to as many people as possible. The "ultimate driving machine" niche they love to hype and people fall for is called marketing.

maxhonda99 · September 2004

20K to 25K units a month in just the US, and it's not a car for the masses? BMWs, Mercedes-Benz's, Audi's, Lexi, are all cars for the masses although to a lesser degree than Toyota's, Honda's, and such.

livinbmw · September 2004

BMW North America does those silly $299 ads. I believe that BMW AG(munich) would rather see the ads promote the product for it's performance and quality even though a 'bimmer can be surprisingly affordable compared to some inferior makes.

Certainly, there is a consciousness of volume but it is more of an outcome based on the vehicle's attributes than a contrived strategy to get more deals. BMW's branding is one that stands for balance, brakes, power-to-weight ratio and over-all road manners.

Branding is an interesting issue in the segment and I think that BMW is more brand conscious and has done more to protect and elevate it's brand image than any other car company in the world.

oac · September 2004

I think you love to throw us bones to get reactions from us... It's working, btw, if you havent't noticed

Here you go again: Branding is an interesting issue in the segment and I think that BMW is more brand conscious and has done more to protect and elevate it's brand image than any other car company in the world

IMO, the highest mass-market car brand today is MB. Followed by everyone else. BMW appeals to more younger folks, but monied people go for the marque brand - Mercedes. Period... If you need a lecture on this, just read back several of Merc1's diatribe on MB and why they rule the world... blah blah blah....

BTW, livingbmw, have you read the recent comments from Denny Clements, Lexus NA General Manager ? He claims Lexus is going after your market... If I were you, I'd be worried.

livinbmw · September 2004

BMW is the premier performance make. Lexus is the premier luxury make.

BMW people and Lexus people are totally different. If Toyota wanted to promote Lexus as a performance brand than they should have made Lexus as a Formula 1 competitor instead of Toyota. The IS300 is a great example of how toyota competes with BMW in the performance segment, total failure.

I'll be worried when I see the Lexus dealer with a bunch of used 540's, 330's,M5's and M3's on the lot.

footie · September 2004

Report in the Detroit New Autoinsider section.

Very low volume sales in the U.S. and high losses.

Maybe Jaguar should merge with U.S. Air.

livinbmw · September 2004

jaguar is laying off 1150 workers and pulling out of F1.

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