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High End Luxury Cars

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  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm confused about which race we are talking about. The one I read about had a bunch of journalists as the "team". BMW won that. The one you're talking about has pros on the "team" and BMW won.

    Are we talking about the same race? I quickly glanced over the article in the BMW magazine where they talked about an issue with the suspension.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Doesn't matter - whoever claims the X3 would place anywhere near the front in a competition where ultimate brutal speed is required was dropped on their head, hard, as a baby. The X3 has not been designed to be the sharpest handler on the road, nor has it been engineered to be the ultimate offroad machine. It's a friggin' image SUV, designed for compromise. Very competent all around, but never designed for competition, which does not rank highly among the buying criteria of mid-size luxury SUV buyers. X3 in a real rallye - please.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    This was the post with the linke to the event:

    Per the poster "The Alcan 5000 is billed as the longest most grueling winter race in the world."

    http://europeancarweb.com/news/0408ec_aican/

    read about the smashing results of the X3. very impressive ......

    Maybe livnbwm got his wires crossed or just believed too much of the BMW marketing blarney he must have to put up with. This event was a tsd rally over 5000 miles of Canada. Race? NO! Grueling? Depends on how much beer and how late the teams stayed out.

    If the martinis where $18 a pop at night, the aspirin were probably $3 each in the morning.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    A midwestern newspaper would like to talk with someone who, in the past month, bought a luxury vehicle (other than a Lexus) for which no incentives were available. Please reply to jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, October 8, 2004 with your daytime contact info and a few words about your purchase decision. Thanks!

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  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    From today's New York Times. It captures many of the things discussed for years here but wouldn't or couldn't be accepted by the MB crowd. At least they now realize that they not only have a quality problem but that they also have a serious prestige problem.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/business/worldbusiness/06merced- - es.html?oref=login
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    A TSD rally... If your driver and navigator are better, you could win it with a '75 Chevy Blazer, assuming you don't have a mechanical failure...

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the type of rallying that Subaru and Mitsubishi have been cleaning up on for years..

    That isn't a knock on the X3. I think it is a great value, and with the 3.0 prices being dropped by $3K for the '05 models, it is even better.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    I just watched a review of the 2005 Acura RL on the PBS show MotorWeek. http://www.pbs.org/mpt/motorweek/carofthemonth.shtml

    Man the new RL is some car. According to John Davis…it has a new kind of all wheel drive system that Acura calls “Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive”, or SH-AWD. It has active headlights that steer light around corners and the hi-tech 3.5-liter V-6 five-speed automatic (with manual mode) puts out an even 300-horsepower, 75 more than before.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Bwia:

    They are great cars but UNTIL they throw a V8 in the thing they will never capture the high end lux market.

    It is sad but true...Even with the Horse Power I would not buy it...A highend LUX needs a V8 in my mind no matter how dumb that may be.

    Why don't they just throw a V-8 in the darn thing people have told them this for years.
  • princeabubuprinceabubu Member Posts: 45
    It seems that most Americans want V8's. I'm not sure what it is, because in my mind, a V6 is just fine... Bigger is better?
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Perhaps the RL has the E and the 5 as targets.

    The Acura line has an almost 20 year history of incredibly long life with owners getting cars to routinely go 200,000 miles, er uh the way Mercedes used to before they fell in the tank.

    Now they add to that one of the most high tech AWD systems on the planet (excuse us Mercedes, you didn't invent this one) and very, very nice styling.

    Why in the world would anyone drop 55K and up on a gimpy E320 or even more on an E500 when you could get something as stylish, great handling, high performance and long lived as the new RL.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Footie:

    No matter how stupid, or irrational it may be...It is not a true Luxury car (In the American mind) without a V-8 even if the 6 delivers as much HP.

    Why spend $60,000 plus and NOT get what We conceder a TRUE Luxury car....

    It is Acura that is even more crazy ...If they want to jump into the high end luxury market in America they need to throw an 8 into the darn thing.

    It is too bad they are so silly, it can't be that complicated to develop or buy a V-8 and engineer it into their car.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    Michael Mattox:

    I don't quite agree with your assessment that in order for the RL to be a true luxury sedan it MUST have a V-8 engine. To the contrary, the V-8 is a throw-back to when auto manufacturers’ answer to increase horsepower was through a bigger and brutish engine. They did this by putting two 4-cylinder engines together without regard to efficiency and weight balance.

    By far, the V-6 is a better designed engine, taking into consideration performance, efficiency and weight distribution. This new RL will generate 300 bhp and I believe do 0-60 in 6.5 seconds. Maybe it is time to look at the V-6 as a different kind of high performance engine, and in turn the RL, as a contemporary luxury sedan. Out with the old staid standard of luxury.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Other vehicle segments aren’t categorized according to number of cylinders. For instance, we have sports cars with 4 cylinders and others with 12. The Honda S2000 had what was considered an amazing 1.2 hp per liter which was considered an admirable feat, one which no other production car manufacturer came close to matching. One owner in these forums described it as a Ferrari for mortals.

    I fail to see why you are so hung up on V8s and luxury cars, especially when you admit your argument is irrational. If someone can produce more power out of a smaller engine, this is good engineering.

    Furthermore, Honda is considered one of the best engine manufacturers in the world. And the RL promises to offer, once again, more bang for the buck in the luxury segment. If you ask me, I think many people enjoy squandering money on badges and image in the luxury segment. Well, the RL is a luxury car for mortals. A better way of looking at it may be to say it is a luxury car for people who would rather put an extra 25 grand toward something else. And if you want to push it, you could call it a luxury car for the savvier buyer who doesn’t need a 3-pointed star or... drum roll please... big L on his trunk.

    Funny, I can't help but think now of that big L that Laverne (Penny Marshall) used to wear.

    ;-)
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Member Posts: 619
    I don't think a luxury car necessarily needs a V8. However, not every 6 cyl will do. I recently test drove an Acura MDX, and I was very impressed with the smoothness and quietness of its V6. However, I thought it could use more power. If the RL's V6 is as smooth and quiet as the MDX's, it should be a luxury contender.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    It's simple. If you put out a lot of money for the more powerful V-8's that MB, Lexus, BMW etc offer than that is simply a standard that must be matched for entrance into the higher lux space. The V8 gives you a smooth and powerful car with plenty of torque and torque is luxury. On top of that the gas mileage I get in the LS430 goes into the high 20's on pure highway and even 22-24 on city crowded highways. I'm always at 21+mpg no matter what type of driving I do. V6's in big cars don't do much better than that. Honda/Acura is the only major auto mfr without a V8 and should join the ranks if it wants to be a lux player rather than a near lux player.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    IMHO

    I think that the mainstream MB crowd woudl throw up to hear that the E320 isn't a 'true luxury' car. And the 530i? The one the Consumer Reports called the best car they'd ever tested? I guess it wasn't 'true luxury'.

    V8's aren't the sign of luxury any more, they are more likely the tools of the "leave rubber" crowd - 300 Hemi's and that bunch.

    Sophistication, the hallmark of luxury in automobiles, has moved on far beyond such simplistic demarcations as number of cylinders.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Depends on how you want to look at it. Clearly the E320 is a class removed from an S-class. Thus in the MB demographics it is a lower level luxury. I had an Acura Legend in the early 90's and while it had luxury touches it fell far short of the cars we discuss in this forum at comparative periods. As far as I'm concerned so does the E, be it a 6 or 8 cylinder. Hey you can walk into a 3000 foot house that is quite luxurious and be impressed. Then walk into a 5000 or 6000 foot luxury house and you'll see that you just switched classes. The difference here is Acura hasn't stepped up to the plate in the larger sizes. The other makes have and that connotes a brand differential. It's business and its the way consumers think.

    I'll never forget when I was shopping MB in 2001. I wanted to drive the E and the S. The salesmen looked at me and said you have to drive the E first. I asked why mainly because the E was out and the S was available to test drive. He said simply - "if you drive the S first you'll never be interested in the E". So I did as he requested. He was dead right and the E in question at that time was the E430 and not the E320.
  • rgswrgsw Member Posts: 333
    A similar thing happened with me on trying out the Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES 300 and the LS 430. I had test driven the Avalon and wanted to drive an ES 300 Lexus for comparison; but, it was the end of the year and none were in stock. So I drove the LS 430 and never went back to drive either the ES 300 or the Avalon again, my mind was made up.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    bwia:

    What you are saying makes a lot of sense...But...

    Human nature what it is in the US...Acura will never take that step up without an 8.

    I own a Luxury car and no matter how wonderful the Acura is It will never compete with the LS or S or 700 series...Without an 8....

    I'll never buy one and I promise you 95% of the super Lux owners wouldn't either.

    It is way past time that Acura realize that the Customer is ALWAYS right.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Luxury Car Sales Zoom
    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0410/11/a01-299659.htm

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  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    IMHO:

    It seems that most growth in the luxury business, has been in SUV's and 'crossover' vehicles.

    For example 2004 sales at BMW the 3, 5, 7, Z4, X5 are all substantially behind 2003. The new 6 has sold a few thousand cars. The new entry priced X3 is 23,000+ units YTD and the only reason why BMW is showing year over year growth.

    Lexus on the other hand shows strong growth in the ES and LS car lines, as well as the GX and hot RX.

    At Cadillac, the traditional Deville, Seville car lines fell sharply, while the newer CTS and Escalade/SRX's grew.

    At Mercedes sales have fallen in the C and S class cars AND G and M SUV's. The E is up 6% along with some of the niche specialty cars.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
     I've always said that performance is a luxury so the torque argument holds water. But torque (when combined with weight and gearing) translates into acceleration, and the RL's 6.5 sec 0-60 betters that of the S430's 6.9. One has six cylinders, the other eight, yet people put them in different leagues.

    Then again, performance is not the only luxury factor. If it was BMW would be king. If torque were the only factor, no one would come close to Mercedes. The fact is, luxury demands a balance of characteristics. I'm not saying the RL is threatening to own the holy grail of luxury, but when you look at the borders of these categories the lines are blurred and categorization is only a vague reference point.

    According to the V8 argument, cars such as the 545, E500, M45, CTS-V, STS, GS430, M5, E55 belong in this thread but I don't see their names on the masthead. Are these cars high-end luxury marques? In my book they are but something tells me people on the V8 end of the luxury debate will give them the boot for other reasons. In a nutshell they're not the portly, executive, Cuban-cigar cruisers. High-end luxury needs a little fat.

    We all know the RL is not going to go head-to-head against the big barges. Size alone precludes this. Cars like the 5 and GS are its competition. But I'll tell you one thing, there will be people who consider the big babies and walk away buying an RL saying it just doesn't make sense to spend a lot more to get a little more. Draw the lines as you would like, but remember, apples and oranges are both fruit and some people would rather pay 50 cents for an apple than a buck for an orange.

    Ljflx, can these high-end luxury cars core a apple?

    ;-)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Absolutely. They are all great cars. But high order luxury, from my viewpoint, is a roomy family sedan with plenty of trunk space, a spectacular and quiet ride, plenty of power, sufficient handling, great interiors and creature comforts, the right balance of techno gadgets (not the awful land BMW is trying to bring us to), a great stereo and reliability you can go to the bank on. Tell 3 adults crammed into the back seat of an E, GS, A6 or 5-series (all with or without a V8) that they should be so greatful that they are riding in a high quality lux car and see what kind of a look you get. Luxury includes space and space begets bigger engines. The E was ruled out the moment I drove it because it was too small. The ride was noticably inferior to an S-class or any car in this segment. That doesn't mean it wasn't a good riding car though but for $60K I want a lot better than that anyway.

    For the record I found the S430 to be underpowered when I drove it. The S500 was an entirely different story.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Didn't shoppers choose the LS400 over the German cars in 1990? Acura has a great car on its hands that will steal shoppers for sure from any make. I just think it falls short of the barges in this segment.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Just remember an important thing. In the real high end cars handkerchiefs are for showin, not blowin. And never get into accidents with traffic judges no matter what you are driving.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    IJFLX:

    Shoppers did choose the LS400 and it's guiet smooth V8..It had styling, obvious quality, size, the gadgets and safty features that are required in a high end luxury car....It also had a fantastic price. Over the years as the car burned it's way into the market people also came to realize it's supernatural reliability.

    If Acura wants to burn it's way into the high end Lux market...It first has to offer ALL the features a buyer would expect in a Lux car.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    My comment was toward a deleted post in which livinbmw doubted and questioned whether people would take the RL over a 5-series. Thus I threw out the old LS analogy. As designman stated, plenty will go the RL route and pocket the savings for the bank, fancy electronics, a grand vacation etc.

    Designman - those that go "over the limit" may end up sharing a Plasma TV with their upstairs neighbor. Come to think of it - 3D TV in the form of hi-def has arrived. Ralph Kramden's wait is over.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Luxury has little to do with room, else the S65 AMG would not be considered a luxury vehicle, due to limited room and lack of two seats.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Or they'll go for the 545 and live without the plasma tv, but have a phenomonal set of wheels.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    On the subject of room let’s not forget that the XJ is in this category. No barge here. It’s not even as roomy as some of the mid-level luxury cars. Score points for style and elegance. I wonder if we’ll ever see a car like this again short of the Quattroporte.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    For me and my family adequate space is part of the luxury equation in family sedans. That's why I referenced myself in the earlier post. We are all different. The bible here is one's preferences not what others say their preferences are.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    KDS

    Doesn't the s65 have lot of room up front in the seats it does have?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    He must be talking about the SL65 roadster. Mercedes, the Sultans of Torque, have this one at 738 lb-ft at a fat 2000-4000 RPM and it does a 4.2 sec 0-60. How's that for low-end torque? These guys are incredible. Actually, I would have figured it faster and it probably is since they measured the E55 faster than the Mercedes claim. The new M5 will be a high-speed track car but these Mercedes are point and shoot street monsters. Think of it, for an extra 100 grand you get a car that's 3 tenths of a second faster than the E55. Step on the pedal and you fly to the moon, bang zoom. No problem, where's my checkbook.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    designman:

    I was just looking at the SLR...Am I the only person here who thinks it is really ugly? both front and rear.

    I am pretty much a Lexus guy when it is sedans but I don't think I am biased when it comes to sports cars.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Yeah I kind of agree Michael. It has some things working for it but it’s overcooked art deco and I see a platypus when staring into the mug. And the interior is on the cheesy side. I think they definitely improved the SLK though.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Nah, platypus is not right, it's more like a baboon. That's not it either. I can picture the animal but just can't think of the name. Either way it looks beady-eyed and cross-eyed too. Did I say it has some things working for it?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Yes sir, I’m convinced the Proboscis Monkey was the motif for the SLR. Actually, it does have something going for it. Know why? Because it’s funky… f-f-f-f-funky lahk a monkey!!!

    ;-)

    image
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    By Jove, I believe you have it! But I bet the monkey out-corners the Benz.
  • scottphillipscottphillip Member Posts: 249
    I would rather clean up after the Benz!

    :-)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    For some reason, it looks better on the new SLK350... Is it less radical?

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  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    So how come the Benz costs so much more than the monkey?
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    'Luxury has little to do with room, else the S65 AMG would not be considered a luxury vehicle, due to limited room and lack of two seats.'

    Its all in peoples minds. Why would someone pay more for a Base ES 330 than they would for a fully loaded Camry and its the same car anyways.... or more for a Lexus LX 470 than a Loaded Land Cruiser?
    image
    image

    Its all in the mind, the letter L with a circle around it vs, the T with a circle around it....
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    LX470 is the Land Cruiser..

    GX470 is the 4-Runner..

    I agree with the point of the post, though.

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  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Thanks kyfdx GX 470 is a Land Cruiser II Prado, not the 4 Runner

    image
    image

    See, this is the 3rd world's super SUV.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    "See, this is the 3rd world's super SUV."

    Is the .50-cal. mount a factory option or after-market?
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    mbukukanyau - The ES 330 and Camry are not the same car, they are built on the same platform. There is a big difference. I have an ES and feel I got a lot more than a loaded Camry offered. Some reasons I liked the ES better: Nicer styling, HID lights, loaner cars, far better dealer service, better radio (ML), nicer gauges, real wood, gated shifter, rear sunshade, etc. I could go on, but that should give you a feel for why I bought the ES.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    This is a forum for "High End Luxury..." don't know what the Camry or the Prado II are doing here, but I digress...

    Ljflx: I have to agree with you on your criteria for "luxury" in a car or truck. Clearly, your analogy of a 3000-sf versus a 5/6,000-sf home drives home the point. Something doesn't add up wrt MBs. And here it is: Why is it that MBs have so many low end sherpa-like models (200, 220, 230, 240, 280, 300, 320, .... you get the point) littering all over Europe and they can be considered a pure luxury player in the N/A market ?? Hasn't any MB owner ever being to Europe to see their counterparts over the Atlantic ??? I was just in Munich and Frankfurt this past week, and the point continues to baffle me. I'll never consider MB a luxury car maker ever. They are simply a mass-market car producer, period. Lexus, Acura, Jaguar, and to a lesser extent, BMW, OTOH, are clearly luxury car/truck makers.

    BTW, why not add another variable to the definition of a "Luxury car" ? How about COST ? I cann't imagine a V6-powered car selling for $100K ? Whereas, a car at this price point can definitely be considered a luxury vehicle.... whatever that means...

    I'll continue my hibernation and pop in here-and-there when time, work and increased family responsibilities permits.

    Where the heck is Merc1 ????????????
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    > ... I'll never consider MB a luxury car maker
    > ever. They are simply a mass-market car
    > producer, period. Lexus, Acura, Jaguar, and to
    > a lesser extent, BMW, OTOH, are clearly luxury
    > car/truck makers.

    That doesn't make any sense, you are using a blatant double standard there. You obviously have not checked the other manufacturer's offerings in Europe. Offering smaller displacement engines is key in models such as MB's C, BMW's 3, Lexus I and Jaguar X series. They all have <2000cc fuel engines and diesel engines in the line-up. Correction: Lexus doesn't have a diesel engine (but they do supposedly sell the IS200 according to www.lexus.de, even though I've never seen one in Europe), and they admit that's their huge Achilles heel in Europe. They're partnering with some French manufacturer for diesel engine design, I think.

    In any case, didn't you see BMW's new 1 series driving around? Which competes against VW's Golff? And they're more legitimate than Mercedes? Makes no sense.

    As to Accura and Lexus, they're irrelevant in Europe. Their success is US based, so based in global perception I truly don't think they even remotely have the brand cachee that MB, BMW or Jaguar have. They do build phenomenal cars, though, and it is just a matter of time until they get their apporach to the European market as "rigt" as they did in the US. But they'll need small engines and diesel to be successful there, and also a premium small car that builds brand desirability with young buyers by being cooler than other cars in the small segment, and is priced a good $4k over the average small car. Makes them quite profitable ventures.

    MB is a luxury car makes, no doubt about that. Claiming otherwise is nonsensical. They do not build luxury cars exclusively, though. Nor do most other brands, exotics excluded.

    As to the 6 vs 8 pot discussion, I absolutely disagree with the perception that a true luxury car needs to have a 8 pot engine. First of all, inline 6s are engines with a better balance than a V8 from an engineering point of view, and can be made to run smoother. Jaguar's inline 6, for one, was smoother than the criticially acclaimed V8 that replaced it due to the needs of the US market. A V8 sounds more hoarse and less turbine-like than a I6 when revved hard. Second of all, unbeknownst to most US buyers the MB S class, the BMW 7 series and the Jag XJ are sold with 6 pots and diesel engines in Europe. Identical spec otherwise. Doesn't make them entry level cars at all.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    I test drove the RL last Saturday and if it is not a high-end luxury sedan then it certainly demands consideration.

    First, the price. At $50K MRSP it is knocking on the door of high priced luxury cars, (ie. LS430, E500, Q45).

    Second, interior look and feel. The driver and passenger seats, fit like a Hong Kong tailored suit. The leather is soft and supple, and the dash is well laid out. Everything is in the right place just like when my grandmother would set the table for a big dinner.

    Third, the handling is superb. On twisty roads the SH-AWD suspension system surpasses the hype. Go ahead push it around a sharp corner (even with your eyes closed) and the car remains composed. Ah....this is heaven. One down side though, the engine feels a little underpowered. But for the driving demographics for this car it has more power than most can handle. Reported 0-60 times is 6.5 seconds, but it felt more like 8 seconds.

    Outside impressions, very Accord derivative and overall length is three inches shorter than the 04 RL. But inside, the space and comfort has a big car feel, certainly not as tight as the XJR or A6.

    Value for the money? You decide. But at $50K I think it is overpriced, then again the car is in such great demand that many will pay that price without blinking an eye.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    bwia:

    The LS430 costs 5,000 more and you get a lot more car with a V-8...The only production car that satisifies California Emissions standards without modification.

    Give an LS a test drive and then let us know what you think
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