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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • 4426444264 Member Posts: 67
    Thanks for your kind words. Car selection is a very personal thing, there's no right and wrong. I wish the GS will have more room and the A8 would depreciate less..

    When I mentioned the S-class stretched version, I meant the long wheel base. I have been in the short wheel base S-class and it doesn't offer much room in the back (rather tight similar to the LS) much less when compared to the 7-series iL or the A8.

    I have experienced the NYC taxi ride and have been quite impressed. Actually, think the soft ride works very well with the road condition as well as the driver's aggressive style.. I have great respect for the drivers giving the passenger the biggest bang for the buck getting you from A to B in the shortest time.
  • jarmstrong2jarmstrong2 Member Posts: 38
    Hello ChristChurch,Shezhad,arcoates,
    I just bough a 1998 VandenPlas with 47k miles on in for 32. It is immaculate. Had it checked out and seems to be nothing wrong with car. I will have it checked out by a Jag dealer in my area. I bought a extended warranty from a co. called Herritage. It sounded good for me. Anyone know of the company? My wife is in serious love with this car and so am I. I have had 420SEL Benz, 3 Lexus
    LS 400. But I LOVE the Jag. I hope I did the right thing as in long term reliability.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    for love. In fact, some previous owners complained when the reliability started to improve because it diluted the car's exclusivity -- it used to be that you had to own at least two cars, so you could drive the other while the Jag was in the shop! However, Jaguar quality is right near the top in the latest JD Powers surveys, so you may very well have the best of both worlds -- good luck with that sweet ride...!
  • shehzadshehzad Member Posts: 52
    I usually keep my cars until about 200-250K, and both I am my wife have offices far enough away that we end up putting around 25K on the cars every year. That said, I've never bought an extended warranty. I usually take the risk because 1.most of my miles are highway miles, which isn't as rough on the car as city, 2.in my experience most warranties either won't cover a car past 100k, or if they do, the cost is pretty prohibitive, or deductables are pretty large. I've been driving this distance for about 20 years, and in that time, EVERY car that both my wife and I have used as our primary vehicle (mercedes S & eclasses, BMW 5 & 7's,Audi v8, Rangerover, and even my one japanese car, a 1990 lexus ls400) has needed a transmission rebuild at some point between about 75K-130K. The rebuilds usually ended up costing about 2000-4000 dollars, depending on the car. Beyond that, I've been very fortunate in that I've never had any really prohibitive engine problem with any car I've driven. I should add that I've alway followed the manufacturers service specifications to a T, and been very fastidious about this. Moreover, I have a mechanic that I've been going to here in Northern Virginia for quite a few years, and the minute my warranty goes out, I know that my mechanic is trustworthy-and he gives me a 12k/12month warranty on any work he performs (as opposed to just 30 days at the dealer). Hence, I have quite the peace of mind that when something does go wrong that it will be fixed properly. Of all the cars I've owned, none has been as alluring to me as my XJ8, and although I always wanted one, I made a point of never owning a Jag as a daily driving machine b/c of their reliability issues. After my purchase though, thank god, and knock on wood, my XJ8 has been one of the better cars (better than the BMW's and Audi, about even w/ the mercedes, and worse than the Lexus)in terms of reliability, and after almost 60K it needs no work. I have no doubt that I will have to get the transmission worked on at some point, but beyond that the car is just as reliable in my mind as the day I bought it. These really are great cars.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    Don't get all worried that I am coming back, because that is not the case at all. I have permanently removed myself from this discussion for personal reasons.

    This message is to tell jarmstrong2 that if he wants to correspond with purely jaguar owners, he would be wise to visit the XJ SERIES board. We all have first-hand knowledge of the vehicles, and not speculation, so it is the best place to go for more info. Hope to see you there.~ A.R.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    Why in the world would you think that we're worried? We welcome your insightful comments and droll sense of humor. Seriously.

    - D.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Thanks. Car selection (like everything else you buy) comes down to paying for the car that has what you want and not overpaying for what you don't need. I'm sure if I wanted handling I'd opt for the S-500. It's not that I don't want a good handling car - I certainly do - but the LS430 gives me pretty good handling with the best ride of any of these cars. That doesn't mean the S-500 doesn't ride well - in fact if the LS wasn't around its probably #1 in ride quality. But they do have to improve that interior.

    I hope you gave that taxi driver a good tip. Beware the taxi driver you don't tip well and stumble upon a second time. Then you're in for a ride that you'll never forget.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Article on the front page of the NY Times business section on Saturday told of major problems in its Freightliner truck divison and in its Debis financial services unit. Many trucks coming off lease and being returned to Freightliner at market values that are below lease estimates. Chrysler also continues to be a big problem. This article said for the first time that MB will now share parts (and presumably technology) with Chrysler. I can't believe that it took them this long to do something which was an obvious cost synergy and which should have been a major strategic rationale for the deal.

    I did not read into the story that they are going to share platforms. I agree with you that a move like that will damage MB's stature and uniqueness. But I don't think sharing parts and technology crosses that boundary - at least that's my opinion. I certainly hope they don't share platforms as I plan to evaluate MB vs. Lexus again in 2004. A move like that would probably keep me away. It bothered me enough that my local MB dealership was rather small and tied in with Honda.

    Anyway there will be a major announcement about all this on Monday by both the executive and supervisory boards of Daimler.
  • is4b2rdis4b2rd Member Posts: 66
    I don't think the MB side of the house would ever allow platform sharing, at least for cars sold in the US. I would be willing to bet that the announcement would be for a separation of the two companies.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The we're straight then right?

    denniswade,

    What gets me with you is that you read something then interpret it for something that it isn't. You've done that several other times in different topics. I don't want to say your a fountain of mis-information, but your reputation preceeds you with me. It would be sicking to any enthusiast for Toyota to get their hands on any European car brand. On another subject what does the 2002 Camry look like?

    ljflx,

    The whole merger is a nightmare. If Mercedes and Daimler don't get rid of Chrysler, Mercedes will be ruined. I didn't say DCX didn' have problems, I'm saying that I don't think the Germans will let Mercedes be pulled down the tubes with Chrysler, they'll un-merge first.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Never in my life have I seen a company acquire as large a company as Chrysler (or one much smaller for that matter) only to divest of it within a year or two because it didn't know how to integrate it. I doubt that they will divest. I think they will share parts and technology but not platforms. Such a move would be prudent and not damage MB.

    I doubt Toyota would be interested in a German car company be it MB or BMW. You can't buy MB as a stand-alone anyway and why would they want the problems and debt the rest of Daimler brings. They are doing very well on their own. Besides do you know how difficult it is to take over a German company? - nearly impossible. But if it were possible I doubt that a bunch of guys in a Boardroom would care about your or my feelings.

    Last thing - they will protect MB as much as possible. But cash drains on other parts of the business will have an effect regardless. MB is too small to be spun out and auto companies bring low multiples.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    The fact that Freightliner is having problems is part of the whole big truck market. Fuel prices have killed that market, they will all weather that storm.

    merc1, straight? I have no beef. Just havin' fun!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I really thought the whole thing was doomed from day one. I can't ever see it working out. I see nothing but trouble. A lot of long-time Mercedes fans just aren't going to accept a 50K and up Mercedes that shares too much with a Chrysler. A S-Class with Chrysler parts....I wouldn't want it I don't *think*. Technology I'm all for sharing, but basing the next E-Class on the same chassis as say the LH cars, no way.

    M
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    unless you can offer specifics about where I've misinterpreted information (or someone's opinion, for that matter), your criticism is meaningless. I think eveyone here (as well as in other topics in which you've participated) is well aware of your loyalty to the Mercedes marque, and I have never had any problem with that -- I feel the same way about Alfa Romeo. However, I do try to be objective and pleasant about my differences with you and others in this conference, and I hope you will show me the same respect I show you.

    As to whether it would be desirable for Toyota to buy any European brand, Toyota is as respected there as it is here, and if they were to buy out D/C I would imagine that they would try to keep the design team as independant as possible in order to preserve the quality and spirit they bought the company for in the first place - unlike Mercedes' treatment of Chrysler, which was ham-handed and short-sighted at best. Ford has done exceedingly well with their acquisitions because they respected the traditions of the brands they acquired -- Mercedes has not (but thankfully, with Zetsche, appears to be changing course).
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    of what kind happen when one compny acquires another, Ford tried to acquire Alfa Romeo about 20 years ago, but Fiat lobbied the Italian government not to let that happen. Once Fiat had acquired Alfa, they quickly dissipated Alfa's predominance in their chosen segments and watered down the quality of their products to Fiat levels. Eventually this led to their abandonment of the US market due to Americans' dissatisfaction with their weird styling (remember the Milano?) and unreliability. I was hoping at the time that Ford WOULD acquire Alfa, because I knew it would mean more and better products and a much improved dealer network for Alfa Romeo in the US (I bought my first Alfa in Chicago, when the mext closest dealer was 250 miles away, in Detroit). Unfortunately, that never happened, and it is only GM's acquisition of a big chunk of Fiat that gives us hope that Alfa will return to the US in a couple more years.

    Interestingly, the person who was responsible for the concept of the most successful car Alfa ever made -- the Giulietta Spider -- was Max Hoffman, the American distributor for a number of European marques in the fifties and sixties.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I did stop short of saying that you were a fountain of misinformation, but you alway try to paint a gloomy picture or some kind of picture that simply isn't there. Objective is always means that someone is in trouble to you. As far as Toyota's respect it isn't in question, what they would do with a European brand is. They couldn't begin to understand what would be at stake. Now the DCX merger is a mess, I'll agree on that, but as long as Mercedes isn't compromised I'm not really worried.

    M
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    I don't think the situation is hopeless -- far from it. As a matter of fact, I've posted a memo elsewhere about the article I read over the weekend about how well Zetsche is doing in winning the respect and confidence of his American managers. The last thing I want is for Chrysler to be discarded or polluted by its German masters. Here's hoping they get it right -- because gloomy-sounding or not, their survival DOES depend on it.

    You last comment, on the other hand, betrays your own bias ("As far as Toyota's respect it isn't in question, what they would do with a European brand is. They couldn't begin to understand what would be at stake. Now the DCX merger is a mess, I'll agree on that, but as long as Mercedes isn't compromised I'm not really worried.")

    First, what in the world makes you think you know what Toyota would do with a European brand, and what exactly in their history leads you to believe they wouldn't respect its tradition? Toyota engineers bailed out Porsche several years ago, they have visits and clinics for automakers from all over the world and they have produced cars cheek-by-jowl with GM for years. They are also the most respected car company in the world, (according to Fortune magazine. The Corolla is one of the world's most popular cars in ANY country (it's one of the standard three cars you will find at European rental outlets), and they have a strong racing presence in Europe as well. Remember, it was Mercedes' attempt to keep up with the Toyotas that caused the loss of three of their cars at Le Mans.

    As for your comment that you don't care what happens to Chrysler as long as Mercedes is okay, that's not only thoughtless -- there are a lot of people whose livelihoods are at stake here -- but short-sighted as well. Chrysler has produced some truly wonderful cars over the years, and to lose their heritage would be as tragic to me as if we lost Mercedes. I guess that's the biggest difference between you and me -- I'm not a one-brand guy, I love 'em all. But that doesn't mean ANY of them are perfect -- Toyota very much included.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think you're reading too much (again) into what I said. I don't care what happens to Chrysler as far as their cars go...the company on the other hand I hope does well. My point is that Mercedes shouldn't be pulled down by what Chrylser can/can't do. Nobody said anything about people loosing their jobs or anything like that. I simply stated that what happens to Chrysler is not my imediate concern. You read different posts from what I wrote. Amazing. Now about Toyota being the most respected car company in the world, you know I doubt that. Mercedes would be that. The Mercedes name is priceless. Mercedes' brand recognition is higher also, much higher. The VW Beetle is just as if not more popular than the Corolla, since you're counting back from the start. You can rent an Accord here in the U.S. so whats the significance of the Corolla being one of the many cars you can rent in Europe??? Big deal.
    Now what would lead me to believe Toyota wouldn't know what to do with or wouldn't respect a European brand? Try their total lack of "tradition" to begin with. Try their blatant copying of anything European that is succesful. It's so silly the length they'll go through to "be like" someone else. . All the Japanese do is copy. They ought to be tired of it by now. As far as that LeMans comment goes, what are you talking about? I know you don't think that because of a win by someone else Mercedes lost their cars because of they were trying to catch someone? Please tell me that isn't what you're saying. If that's the case everyone in racing has lost a car trying to "catch" someone else. Porsche needed help, you're right, but it was in the area of saving costs more than design, of which the Japanese know very little. GM needs Toyota's help more than anybody else. GM is dying very slowly. For the record I'm not a "one brand guy" either, I like them all too, but I have my favorites. I know you knew that.

    Fortune magazine is not an authority on who the most respected car company is. They can tell you that how much money the company has made and their business savy, but that doen't always translate into respect. Respect comes from other factors than just what a money/business magazine says about a car company. I agree that Toyota would be in the top 5, but not not number 1.

    M
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    This is getting real boring....please!!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Hey it's been a long time since I've seen you in here. How have you have been? Nope didn't get a car yet. I'm thinking I'll wait because the two cars I'm stuck on (330Ci Cabriolet & A6 4.2) are both due for a facelift for 2002. Though I am waiting to see what this W8 Passat will be like too. Now from this list I would get either an S55 or 750iL, but most likely the S55 AMG. Now about the A6, I think the 2.7t model is the best compromise of the 3. It can run with the V8 and is light on it's feet like the 2.8 model, but handles better. I just like the body of the V8 model more. Yes (sadly) the C320 is off my list unless some color/equipment issues are straightened out.

    M
  • charlesquinn1charlesquinn1 Member Posts: 1
    I've never owned luxury (can't afford it), but I've dreamed of owning a 740iL with the Sport Package. That is, until I recently sat in a Lexus 430...Whoa! I love the look and feel of an MB, but find the interior, from the driver's position, to be sterile at best. My beloved 740 was an equal disappointment (did I miss cup holders in the rear seats)? I've never heard of some of the features of the new Lexus--power rear seats and rear radio and climate controls??? On a 4-door sedan??? I agree with a previous respondent...I love driving hard, but reserve that for the race track. Otherwise, give me straight-line acceleration; a sumptuous, logical, and warm interior; and rock-solid reliability. Make mine a black LS430, and hold the $20,000 prestige premium.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That's the way just about every LS buyer feels - and the car handles better than most euro lovers on this board will have you believe.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    The LS is as squsihy as a rotten tomato. My 750iL will run rings around it. The 750 also does have heated power rear seats and rear cupholders FYI.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    The rings associated with a 750il are usually of the BURNT kind...get real. LS430 buyers would eliminate that competition early in the first round...then eliminate the S500 on price/interior.

    What's with this drag-racing mentality...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Why do you have to put down the LS430? You accuse others of justifying their purchases yet you are the insecure one. I don't go running around putting down the S-500. I know a great car when I see one - apparently you don't. Handling isn't the sole reason why people buy cars. And the S-500 is better than the LS in that department - I'll give you that - but its not that much better; not the basic S anyway. And in most other places the S-500 falls short - but not by all that much either - except in two places; value and interior plushness where it falls far short.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I realize you've got a BMW 750 not an S-500. I didn't look at the 740 or 750 as I preferred the S-class looks over the BMW. I also know you like to have some fun here so don't over-react to my post the way I did to yours. But in all honesty you do weight performance far too heavily in your evaluation of these cars.
  • hello26hello26 Member Posts: 62
    It's not very gracious for a BMW 7 Series owner to call the LS suspension "rotten tomato"!

    I found the LS400 suspension to be competent in a studied way (the whole car is like that). If the new LS if 1/2 as durable as the LS400, it will be a great car.

    merc1, forgive my flashing messages I post and delete at the speed of sound. I've been trying to figure out the new software as I haven't posted in a while.

    I wanted to say that Dante should have had a special circle of hell for people who can not afford cars they like (me), take years to decide, and want the next thing (always). My own view (and it is contary to convential wisdom I know) is that cars are getting worse and not better. It isn't just Mercedes that is making cars more cheaply- not at all. Volkswagen is no different than Daimler.
    The new A4 has 7 % more plastic. In fact, you can see some of it in interior pictures. They can not afford to build the current A6 and the next one will be decontented. The A6 doesn't need a facelift!

    Nothing is perfect for me or anyone else. While you've been insisting on one CD player and the right color combination, Mercedes has been hard at work making a car that looks like a cross between a CLK, a Ford Pinto, and AMC Gremlin !
  • 4426444264 Member Posts: 67
    How do you define a *better* car?

    To me, cars are getting better everyday. Cars are safer, more fuel efficient, more comfortable and they perform far better than ever before.

    The amount of plastic or the cost of production has little to do with how I personally evaluate a car. We do not live in the dark ages where one judges a car by the quality of the woodwork or leather alone.

    I feel that many of us has gotten so picky and spoiled that we are missing the big picture of the progression of automobiles.

    Advance passive and active safety, fuel efficiency, aerodynamcis, acceleration, braking and cornering performances, comfort level, ride, noise, convenience features, damages to the environment etc. are FAR more relevant and meaningful in my opinion.
  • hello26hello26 Member Posts: 62
    We don't need to miss the big picture! The big picture is that there are huge holes in the Earth's atmosphere! The BEST car, thefore is the Toyota Prius. It is SULEV according too California law. Zero emissions vehicles are something of a (don't know what the right word is) because batteries equals power plants equals pollution. If you want to have an ideology of modern versus dark ages, the progression of mankind, etc. I'd suggest you've hit on it with your concern for the environment. If we want to pay more than lip service to those concerns, 5000 Prius' in the US and a five month waiting period from TOYOTA is not acceptable.

    However, you've thrown a lot into the mix! Cars are more safe (this does not do us much good in the US when 1/2 the passengers vehicles are SUVs and trucks, which again, is bad from an environmental point of view).

    Wait a minute. Plastic is bad from an environmental point of view- do you know what you have to put in the air to produce it?

    You would not want to say that cars were better and better period, because if you did you would
    be saying what advertising is saying- of course the car companies want you to think that everything that is new is better.

    What else have you put in the mix? Ride and noise. On this I must diagree. Ford Escort, Ford Taurus, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Subaru Legacy, Toyota Corolla are examples of cars that VIBRATE and are LOUD and CRUDE compared to what they were pre-2000. You CAN MAKE a car cheap to the point that is has no quality. Why would you do that? To save yourself money and to increase your profit.

    Now who said anything about judging a car based on wood and leather alone? The cars on this list and German luxury cars (and Japanese and American) are
    not about "saving the environment", are they?
    They are about going AS FAST AS YOU CAN TOXIC EXHAUST PIPE EMISSION BE (can't say it, can't abbreviate it ;).

    I have seen cars from the early 70's to now. Guess what- they are very different, and they change all the time. Fans of Mercedes-Benz know what I am talking about. If you are considering
    the cars on this list, or similar cars, you get to judge the car by absolute standards- does it vibrate, how does it handle, how fast does it go,
    anything you want, anything at all. By these standards, plastic in cars, in engines, in bodies, in interiors, is not necessarily a good thing!

    Cars are better, over-all. It would be a miserable world if every car belched out what American cars did in the early 70's. Cars are more safe (head airbags are a miracle if you know what a head injury can do to a human being).
    I'm sorry, I only meant in a sense (in the sense relevant to luxury cars), I think the cars of NOW have value in a way that the cars of the near future will not.
  • hello26hello26 Member Posts: 62
    nt
  • blehrlichblehrlich Member Posts: 92
    The LS430 is an ULEV, as is the MB S500. Curiously, the MB S430 is only an LEV.
  • 4426444264 Member Posts: 67
    <<You would not want to say that cars were better and better period, because if you did you would be saying what advertising is saying- of course the car companies want you to think that everything that is new is better.>>

    This is interesting logic but I truly prefer newer cars as an overall package, safer, faster and more comfortable.

    You are lucky if you have different views as the used luxury cars are usually cheaper than the new ones..
  • ejerodejerod Member Posts: 86
    I drove the LS430 3 times. I looked at the BMW 740il and rode in my brother in law's 2000 740 il. I bought the 2001 S500 with most of the options and I'm happier than a pig in slop. No one ever says to the Bently owner "you spent what ? You could have had 4 LS430's or 3 S600's for that!!!" And Bently only comes with a 3 year warranty. To make a long story short. I love my S500 and have absolutely no regrets. All the other cars are fine, but the integrated systems of the MB are superior to everything else currently on the market.... and again. I love my car.. so there.. lol
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The bottom line is just about everyone feels that way with the cars they selected because you really can't go wrong at this level - it just comes down to what you want.

    By the way I've done at least 30 acquisitions in my career and put over $100mln. in some peoples pockets and none of them drive a Bentley. One guy does have a few MB's, a few Lexi and one BMW. He also has about 3 homes, one of which has been in Architectual Digest. Needless to say I'd never question how he spends his money.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...the "you spend what??" question as an argument pro or con with luxury vehicles. I think if you're looking at a luxury car, you're sybaritically indulging and wasting money as it is, and questioning someone else's decision to buy a more or less expesnive car is silly. When I bought my Jag XJR, the $ consideration of "value over the XJ8" was not even remotely present in my head. $10,000 more or less - I don't give a damn once I have decided I am burning over $60k on a car anyway. And if someone goes and spends over $100k, fine.

    It utterly amazes me when people say whether a Lex is a "better buy" than some German lux-mobile. Once you start that, hey, a Toyota Camry is an even better buy, you know.

    The concept of luxury is get what friggin' simply sybaritically appeals to you, and more or less damn the cost. Heck, you can blow over $100k on a wristwatch if you want to. Easy. Try explaining *that* to people who are stunned by luxury car prices...

    The world is full of thoroughly enjoyable stuff that would seem crazily overpriced to the middle-class minded person. Think a $200k Bentley is expensive? Well, how about spending $8,000 on one Brioni suit? $150k on an IWC Grande Complication wristwatch (and there's more expensive ones out there, some might regard that a "reasonable buy")? $600 on Lorenzo Banfi shoes? $6,000 on a Namiki or Montegrappa ink pen? Heck, there's a million ways to spend a lot of money, and they're far less visible than cars. As Adam Smith, the father of market economy, established, the price of something has nothing to do with its true cost - merely with its perceived value.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    How about $10mln on a house? The question is do you buy to please yourself or to impress others. I'm in the first group and don't care what others think.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...that is impossible to tell without knowing the person. Money spent on "impressing others" is always wasted, because it's simply neber enough. Money spent on pleasing oneself is always perfectly spent, as far as I am concerned. Whether it is a $10m home or something else, who am I to tell without knowing the person? It's presumptuous to judge others on appearances. And if they're trying to impress, they invariably are pathetic noveau rich folk condemned to fail.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    I think you should buy what most appeals to you within your budget (self-imposed or otherwise). If price or other quantifiable creteria were the only consideration, no one in their right mind would ever buy a Rolls, would they?

    Fact is, when magazines do comparison tests they try to find competing models as close to the same purchase price as possible -- a fair process, I think -- and when compared against the V8 versions of the S and 7, the LS430 fares extremely well. The fact that it's less expensive is either a bonus or, in the case of less well-heeled customers, is what makes it affordable in the first place. There are persistent rumors of a V12 version of the Lexus, and if they actually bring one to market I'm sure everyone will have to revisit their assessments.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    I agree with the previous posts about buying what pleases you and respect the different decisions. But, as denniswade says, when comparing vehicles in the LS's luxury segment of the market, a $15,000 differential in price is a meaningful point of contention...notwithstanding anyone's right or ability to throw money away.

    All of the "so-called" independent reviews of this segement come to the same basic conclusion...the LS430 is a bonfide, serious alternative to the Europeans. As a previous owner of both BMW and MB, I just bought my first Lexus...because it was the better vehicle in most areas...not all. The performance handling crown may still belong to Europe, but my decision to buy an LS had this issue ranked lower in terms of importance. (secretly, if I really want performance and a quickening pulse, I'd cram myself into a Porsche and be on my merry way!!)

    Bottomline, the serenity of the interior, build quality, plenty of performance for my taste, reliability, price edge, etc. just seem to make an overwhelming case for the LS430.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    It seems to me this "money no object" theme is getting way off the point. The car mag comparo analogy used by denniswade is much more accurate IMO. The idea is to compare apples to apples and keeping it all in perspective. It's an overall comparison of similar price/features/style/value, etc. That's why Bentley and Rolls and Lamborghini are not in the title of the group. While MB fans tout their heritage and handling, BMW fans talk of their aggressive driving and handling and Lexus fans talk of their luxury and reliability. Obviously, these different features are what attracted each person to begin with. There is, of course, some blending of all these things in each car. What got this off course is the defensive reaction to "value" comments made by the Lexus owners (which I admit, I am one). As an LS430 owner, I not only love my car, I can also appreciate its value compared to the others properly mentioned in this group. I agree with ljflx, all are fine cars. I heavily researched all of them and chose the Lexus for reasons of my own. While I didn't buy it just because it is a better value, I am not ashamed that it is. I do not understand the occasional defensive attitude, esp. from the MB folks, when value is mentioned. It doesn't lessen the quality of my car. It is, in my opinion, an added benefit. I gave up very little to get that added value. I only yield to MB and BMW in aggressive handling, but as someone said, how often do you really drive that aggressively. And if you do, then choose something else. On the other hand, my Lexus is far and away superior in terms of luxury, fit and finish, general quality and at least equal in features. Of course, the style police are waiting to pounce and I can only add that while I agree the MB is styled somewhat better, I do not find the Lexus styling all that bad. To me, it is a total package decision and there are just too many pluses for the Lexus and too many negatives for the others. I would have spent the extra money for something extra. Value was not my first priority, but I am not unhappy that it was included "free of charge".
  • is4b2rdis4b2rd Member Posts: 66
    They would admit that the reason they choose the MB and BMW, besides the obvious glorious ride and handling is the status. I am not ashamed to admit that I chose Mercedes because of perceived status. Of course my new CL is not very noticeable to most people, which pisses me off.
    :-)

    But if I could get over the "prestige factor", I'd definitely purchase an LS430 over the MB S-CLass or BMW 7-series. Frankly, the interior of the new S-Class leaves MUCH MUCH MUCH to be desired. The interior has been so decontented, that it would be more appropiate in a 20k-30k vehicle, not a 70k plus.

    People should realize that Lexus is only about 11 years old, and I think they have learned over those 11 years, and that is why you see higher quality leather in the new LS, compared with the old. Also, I think they did well for themselves in the style department by keeping a same basic look from the beginning. They are starting their OWN styling legacy.

    And, when I graduate from prestige withdrawal, I will be at a Lexus dealer with check in hand. :-)
  • is4b2rdis4b2rd Member Posts: 66
    When the new Jaguar XJ-series comes out next year, their styling will TROUNCE all over BMW and Mercedes. I hope they do well with the interior and assembly so that they can take a big chunk of the luxo car market. :-)

    I've heard that the new Jag will have an aluminum body and suspension bits. It will be a site to see. Now, THAT I'd buy over the LS. Not for prestige but because their cars are so darn gorgeous.
  • bwhbwh Member Posts: 76
    The reasoning behind choosing BMW over Mercedes and Lexus was not the status symbol. By now doesn't the general public recognize the big Lexus, or any Lexus for that matter, as a premium, and expensive automobile? One big reason was the styling, I just love the aggressive look of my BMW. IMO the current 7 series is one of the best looking cars on the road today. I also liked the interior of the BMW best. It is very driver oriented. I agree on the S class interior wholeheartedly, not much to look at in this price range. While some accuse me of emphasizing the handling aspect of the BMW, I think you are missing the point. The BMW "feels" much better to me just loafing down the freeway. It is tied to the road better than the others. I don't mind hearing the bumps in the road. The steering feedback is superior in the BMW as well. I think it plain drives better ALL of the time, not just when pressed. Given the opportunity to run it hard, it is very fun to drive. I found the others to be very competant but less engaging, isolated if you will. I have a Porsche for going fast, maybe this has led to my bias towards BMW.
  • pathdocpathdoc Member Posts: 126
    Does anyone think the aluminum body will discourage sales of the new XJ8? I believe the Audi A8 also uses aluminum. What are the implications for the availabilty of repair facilities for body work on aluminum vehicles? I believe this used to be a problem with some of the older British sports cars (? A/C Bristol).
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    My major gripe with BMW and Mercedes is their overly tidy, somewhat teutonic and cold interiors. Great leather and wood, but a bit too plasticky here and there. But that is all a matter of personal taste. Despite the fact I am half-German, I think Jag interiors beat the hell out of Teutonic designs when it comes to warmth and coziness. But some people don't like the library atmosphere, of course... :-)

    And, hey, I am the first to love Jags, I do own an XJR, and I had the XJS coupe before. But you can see, year by year, how yet another square inches are sacrificed to plastic out of the Ford parts bin. I, for one, do not like the Jag S-class interior all that much.

    And the new Jag XJ, from what I have seen, does not look all that mind-boggling. Just a big S-class, a bit more stately. I do think Jaguar will become less remarkable with the new shapes, but hey, it's the way things go. I have never been a big fam of the XK-coupe, for one, it was far less distinctive than the XJ-S, and looks somewhat like a Camaro from too many angles.

    And then, of course, Jag will further murk the waters with their X-type. Currently, Jaguar service is one of their major differentiators. Once you crowd the service department with entry-level luxury cars, we'll see how it holds up.

    Granted, I would have never bought Jags if Ford wouldn't have straightened them out and delivered on quality. But now, let's see what the future holds.

    The current XJR, to me, is somewhat of a bargain. Loads of power, an exquisite Baby-Bentley interior, and unique classic styling in the 60s... I very much doubt the new platform will deliver on all those counts.

    As to Lexus - great car and all, but the styling is so bland, sorry, not for me. It does *0* to raise anyone's pulse, it is a perfect, yet utterly passion-less car. I do expect more for a luxury car, more committment to risk and legacy. For instance, the SC430 right now is an odd looking car, but at least they had the guts to try something different. The LS430 is a bit like, uh, let's take a Camry and make it look somewhat more stately...
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    The new LS is a copy of the new S Class genereration released to the market the previous year. This has been argued, proven with photographs, and beaten to death. I don't look at the A8 and see a Volkwagen Jetta conspiracy.
    The ES is a Camry but I wouldn't say that about the LS.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I didn't mean the Camry comparison to be taken literally, it was to emphasize the fact that Lexus takes no risks whatsoever in the design.

    And, visually, I see no similarities between the Lex LS430 and the Merc S class. The new Merc S-class went for a more refreshing image. The happy face lights and a lighter overall presence do represent a certain design risk. I *do* know people who prefered the more conservative and massive presence of the old Merc S class. So I have to give kudos to Mercedes for taking some risk with the new design, and going for discontinuity. Lexus does no such thing - there are no adventures in design whatsoever. No one will ever say "I don't like it at all!", but no one will ever say "It's a gorgeous car!" either, when refering to the design itself.

    Don't get me wrong - the Lexus is a phenomenal car: superbly engineered and balanced and all. But it is truly not a car that is *passionate*. Neither is the BMW 7-series, by the way, which I find equally unexciting design wise.

    The Audi A8 has class Audi design elements in there, it is recongizable. Not that Audi ever does for big risks in their design, either. It's clean lines, but also somewhat unexciting.

    I guess that it's simply the fact that *all* cars are starting to look more and more similar, since, like politicians, they morph themselves into something that appeals to the lowest common denominator. That leads to a certain blandness.

    The Jaguar here has the "classic" edge pure and simply because it *is* the oldest design. Updated and all, but still. If the spy shots I have seen of the new model are anything to go by, I will not truly consider the new car, just like I didn't consider the XKR all too seriously after the XJS. The newer models are far more anonymous.

    You would think the success of the New Beetle or the kudos the New Mini get would make car designers see that people do reward originality and classic, recognizable design cues. If I were Jag, I would make the new XJ look like the old one, with updated lines and an utterly new base. Keep it different. I would not go for the S-class design, only bigger, which seems to be the road ahead.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Speed up that graduation to Lexus because when you get there you'll be very happy. Besides, the valet guys who park my LS430 certainly treat me and the car with a lot of prestige. They park it right up front in the big spaces where it doesn't get scratches. In fact when I went to Peter Lugers (best steakhouse on Earth in case you don't know the name)in Brooklyn the doorman let me park it at the fire hydrant right in front of the restaurant entrance. The Rolls and Bentleys were around the corner. By the way the fire hydrant in front of Peter Lugers is probably the only fire hydrant in all of NYC that you can park your car in front of and not worry about getting a ticket.
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    Your post implies that LS430 styling is derivative from Camry styling (...let's take a Camry and make it look somehwhat more stately..."). The qualification (..is a bit like,") must be what you mean by your clarification. It seems that blandness is undefined and could not be made stately or pedestrian, although I understand that you meant 'also bland, but stately.'
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The difference between you and I is I hate the road noise you hear in a BMW. I can't see paying that kind of money for a car and hear the same road noise you hear in cars $40k cheaper. And to bring out a little element in flint350's post how often do you have a chance to drive the car hard - maybe 1% of the time. Give me the great ride, plush interior, quiet cabin and great radio which you enjoy 100% of the time anyday. But I don't fault you for one second on your preference. That's what makes us all different. By the way I had a Porsche 944 and a Vet in my single days. Loved the 944 but I am a changed man. The LS430 does handle better than you give it credit for, though.

    flint350, denniswade and my pal wbwynn - great posts!
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