High End Luxury Cars

vwguild2 · January 2005

Rear or Mid_Engine?

oac · January 2005

I haven't seen the LF-A except in pics. Rear looks OK but the front is just not doing it for me. Its what will lie under the hood and the right pricing that may do the trick. BUT, if I were Lexus, I'd simply revive one of those old Supra exterior, a brush here, a brush there and voila ! Call it anything you like, it should be better looking than what they are trotting out there now.

Talking of styling, Chris B must be having a fit (excessive laughter). Seemed the bug is afflicting everyone. The new S (from pics) may not hit its mark, the 7 is, well... the Audi is nice looking with a great interior, but no one cares. Jaguar is so infused with Ford and crippled with *issues* that its just not a factor in the high end lux market (sad). The sector has gotten so bad that we could consider a VW as a high-end lux car ? Looks like the bland (vanilla) Lexus LS remains kinda the rock solid car in this sector. The new S couldn't come any sooner before the new LS. Let's see how the market reacts to these new offerings from MB and Lexus. We consumers should be the big winners. I am licking my chops for MY'07 releases....

sv7887 · January 2005

Hi All,

First off, Merc1 welcome back to the board..We certainly missed you! It's good to have someone on the other side to keep these debates so lively.

Oac,

I heard you on the Lexus designs...I still think the original designs that Lexus rolled out were the best ones..The SC was a great design that Lexus fumbled in it's 2nd generation..Now the SC looks like some retired person's car..The original ES even had a nice flair to it..The new one is just weird looking.Same goes for the LS..They had the sleek profile and distinct look on the first car. The new '05 isn't bad, but you still can see the strong similarity to the older S Class..I hope they don't do the same thing in '07. Didn't Lexus use Italian designers for their initial designs? (I know this was true for the GS)

As for Jaguar, their quality has steadily improved. From that perspective they're doing well. The newest XJ was the result of a design committee and it shows. The older car, while impractical, was much better looking. Ford has done a poor job of marketing Jaguar..Building cheap downmarket cars like the X-Type isn't the way to go..If that isn't enough, they've send some Detriot Exec to run the place...I really think they don't know how to manage a premier marque like Jaguar..Their Luxury nameplates save Volvo have lost a horrendous amount money. They continue to build cars that simply lack the amenities that the competition has..Their $75K XJ doesn't have a Navigation system as standard! They've got their work cut out for them!

SV

merc1 · January 2005

Nope, I'm back and doing well...thanks for the welcome.

Well I've always called them as I seem them and for a Lexus designed vehicle the LF-A is big step in the right direction. However it is the details that need work. The Euros are so good at nailing the details. The front end of this car has to go, its way too low and droopy and those side creases/lines need to either be better defined or smoothed out all together, imo. Like the cooling fans in the rear. Overall I think the design could work if it is tweaked a good deal. Now the person who I turn to for design critique (designman) seems to think it is beyond all hope.

M

merc1 · January 2005

Well thanks again.

One question though, if the RL is out of his price range at 50K isn't the E320/350 also, because it starts at the same 49K as the RL? Isn't the new A6 4.2 around 50K too? The TL of course doesn't play in the E/A6/M35 league, but it is a whole lot cheaper. I haven't looked at the pricing for the M35 so I'm not sure about it.

M

merc1 · January 2005

Thanks. Well somebody has to keep things level because going by the postings while I was away there was virtually no one to represent the Eurocar view...lol.

M

paldi · January 2005

Hello, I'm sorta new here. Been posting in Phaeton and here for a month or two. I'm interested in technical options. I like the heating and air conditioning system in the Phaeton, the soft close doors, the auto open and close trunk, radar cruise control, other things... like the covered air vents and power sunroof cover, solar roof with fans to keep the car cooler... But there needs to be more.

What do you guys see as the best current and near future technical options and upgrades for European cars - particularly the Phaeton but Benz and BMW also - since they all feed from the same pool?

I'm thinking hidden parking sensors fitted behind radar or infared transparent moldings, rear vision cameras, driver adjustable ride height in a wide range of settings, wifi connections between house and car audio systems and sat navigation systems that update your palm pilot or pocket pc recording commuting and business miles for a monthly and annual summary. (The nav system knows the route you take to work!) What ideas are floating around?

paldi · January 2005

With Porsche, the motor could be anywhere except on the roof.

footie · January 2005

Welcome back, Merc1. Glad to see your posts again.

However, I must differ with you, as it seems always.

Your comment that "the LF-A is big step in the right direction. However it is the details that need work. The Euros are so good at nailing the details".

Whatever Lexus does in the 'details', they work. They operate as designed, as intended. You might disagree with the design or the intent, but unlike, the Euros, at Lexus they work.

They work when they leave the Lexus factory, they work when you get them, they work 5 years later. With the Euros, these days, no one knows if the 'details' work at the factory or when you get them. If you've driven a 'Euro' for any length of time, you know that the only reason they work 5 years later is that they've finally been debugged and replaced under warranty or they've been replaced a few times during visits to the company repair shop!

It's THE big difference between between building a vehicle that meets both the company's expectations and its customers and building a vehicle that is purported to be something and isn't.

The Euros don't nail the details anymore.

They might think they designed some 'nailing details', but hey, if you can't deliver, you ain't nailed nothing.

Footie

merc1 · January 2005

I was speaking about styling details. The marketing, reliability, purpose and everything else dealing with the Lexus concept or any other car isn't what I was talking about. Styling was my point. Nothing else.

Euro cars like the 3-Series, 5-Series, E-Class, SL, and others surely do nail the details (outside of reliability if you can't accept anything else) and they surely aren't leading their segments by sheer luck. If they aren't nailing the details by your scorecard I got it and I'm not going argue that anymore, but you'd better let Lexus know about this failure too because they continue to chase just that group of cars relentlessly (with the IS,GS and SC) only to come up short.

One could just as easily state (factually) that even with all the reliability accolades the GS and IS in particular didn't deliver and missed the market by a country mile. Something wasn't right about them. Was it is in their "details"? Either way they didn't fly.

Hey we wouldn't be ourselves if we didn't totally, emphatically.... disagree..lol.

M

footie · January 2005

Points taken. Incorrectly conceived or targeted "details" can be executed flawlessly and be forever wrong.

I would say that I agree with your last sentence but that would make it one of those "this statement is false" contradictions!

lol

Footie

designman · January 2005

The derriere on this LF-C concept is one of the nastiest looking things I've ever set eyes on. I thought nothing could beat Bangle. Live and learn. WOW is this butt ugly!

http://www.edmunds.com/future/2006/lexus/is/100401889/photos.html- ?tid=edmunds.f.review.leftsidenav..2.Lexus*

princeabubu · January 2005

I totally agree. While it is a departure from the regular norm of their designs, it isn't a good one... The rear is all cut up in weird ways, and the front is to normal for the rest of the car. It's interesting, but it's not a good thing... IMO.

pablo_l · January 2005

Well, it's one of those designs that you know will make it to production in very watered down form (if at all). The shoulders are way too high, making for a very claustrophobic cabin, for one thing. Even those who think it looks great would be put off by having the side-windows start at ear level...

designman · January 2005

Perhaps Lexus concept vehicles are intended as research projects more than anything else. They assemble a potpourri of contrasting motifs and shapes, then weigh response. I guess its in the interpretation of response that things go awry because everything comes out misshapen anyway, only in a more conservative and vapid manner.

oac · January 2005

vapid: adjective:

Lacking liveliness and spirit; unanimated; spiritless; dull; as, a "vapid speech"

Flavorless; lacking taste or zest; flat; as, "vapid beer."

I had to check in my dictionary since I never heard of this word before. I did learn something new from designman. Thanks, but ouch !

BUT, my dear designman, do you not think that this is too strong a word for a Lexus ? I mean, don't you see some "spirit/zest/liveliness" in a 6-speed 5.9s 0-60 LS430 with the sport suspension (Euro-tuned) ?

Now how would you describe the collections here ?

http://www.uglycars.co.uk/feedback1.asp?offset=475

designman · January 2005

You have to keep my rants in perpective. There are no manufacturers who I don't kill on styling. The current gropes at fashion and fatuous change don't sit well here. They are running out of things to do and are just choosing to do anything while meeting deadlines. I'm even somewhat disappointed at Porsche for giving us the new smiley-faced 911 with squared off "vapid" interior details.

But that's just the styling end of things. Turn to technology and Toyota leads the way. Hybrid has to happen and Toyota is making it happen. These are very exciting times in this regard and, as some of us have alluded to in the past, it will be more significant than most realize. I've said this before, hybrid technology in cars is the most significant innovation in autos since the car itself. And this is hardly a "vapid" endeavor. How nice it would be if they could just make these vehicles a little more consistently pleasing to look at. I can't be defending the exterior looks of the the GS, ES, IS, Solara, Matrix, Avalon, Camry, Corolla, Rav 4 etc. The blind squirrel found a nut in the SportCross though. One of my favorite styles around. Figures. It'll soon be gone while never having seen AWD.

;-)

blckislandguy · January 2005

When I first read this I thought that paldi was a troll for a management consultancy looking for ideas to pedal to the manufacturers. The ideas seem a little far out when the mfgs can't seem to get the electrical systems they now have to work correctly.

In any case, my list would be a lot lower tech. How about some practical, relatively simple products that should come standard on high end vehicles? Given the outside temps, my list is going to be winter focused. Rubber liners for the rear area on SUVs and cross overs should come standard, rather than having to call McNeil to buy 'em before you can use the load space. Windshield washer fluid should be heated (incidentally, JC Whitney sells an aftermarket kit for $25 that installs easily) and it should contain de-icer mix. Factory installed remote starters should be availble to avoid problems with the aftermarket ones.

So there's my winter wish list. With the remote you warm the car up while you are still showering in the gymn at 7PM. Then you come out and throw your grungy gymn bag on the liner in the rear, get inside, hit the windshield with some heated de-icer and drive home in comfort!

designman · January 2005

I think the Mercedes air scarf is a scream. Does anyone with a Mercedes put the top down under 70 degrees? Merc, do you have a beat on this?

oac · January 2005

You have to keep my rants in perpective.

Definitely.

I can't be defending the exterior looks of the the GS, ES, IS, Solara, Matrix, Avalon, Camry, Corolla, Rav 4 etc.

Me neither. All of these cars/trucks are not too aestethically pleasing to me as well, especially the new Solara. Oh wait. I own an '03 Matrix, so I do like it. It is a fun little trickster, that sport-wagon-mini-thingy!

The blind squirrel found a nut in the SportCross though. One of my favorite styles around. Figures. It'll soon be gone while never having seen AWD.

Personally, I didn't quite like the sportcross, but like the IS sedan.

merc1 · January 2005

Well I did get to drive the SLK late in Sept on a good chilly day at the "Love Mercedes" event and all I can say is that the Airscarf does work as advertised, and the think the SLK owners are probably a little less stuffy than the SL owners so they might actually let the top down when it cooler than 70 degrees....lol.

M

paldi · January 2005

The carpeting next to the gas pedal gets dirty and scuffed up pretty quickly and floor mats should extend to that area. Hmmm, how about a storage compartment for your umbrella?

merc1 · January 2005

Well it is official. The facelifted 7-Series will be shown at the Geneva Motorshow in March. The 325hp 745i becomes the 360hp 750i/Li with a new 4.8L V8. The 760i/Li stays put with 438hp. I'm hard pressed to see that much difference in the styling. Two articles:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8045&sid=17- - - - - 3&n=156

the more in-depth one with the pictures:

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050127.007/page/1/l- - - - - ang/eng/bmw/1.html

The back side just has a few changes to the lamps and a chrome bar, the trunklid itself is the same ugly piece it has always been.

Note: I wonder if the U.S. market will finally get the entry level V8, the 740i/Li. It has been upgraded too, 306hp. The exact same hp rating as the European Mercedes S500. Mercedes and BMW being marketers of each others cars is the saying in Europe, so now you get an idea what the hp ratings for the new S-Class engine range will be.

M

merc1 · January 2005

Lexus LS430 - 32,272

Mercedes S-Class - 20,460

BMW 7-Series - 16,155

Jaguar XJ - 10,552

Audi A8 - 5,942

VW Phaeton - 1,939

Maserati Quattroporte - 425

[Sources: Germancarfans.com, autosite.com, Autoweek.com]

Very intesting. The LS ran away with the segment, yet the oldest car is still in 2nd place. Big improvement for the A8, but Phaeton is just not considered. The Maserati is too exotic to ever be more than an a extreme niche player.

M

designman · January 2005

DEFINITELY an improvement. This morph is a study in how extreme details can wreck the look of a car. The only change for the worse is the emphasized crease on the hood a la E90 too much contrast with the overall round contours, and the lone link to surface flaming. And I wish they would lose that chrome-banded wolverine look on the skull. I see the Infiniti M has hitchhiked onto that nonsense.

There are many subtle revisions and it is clear to me that they made an effort to address the styling problems BMW enthusiasts are moaning about. I am encouraged because they are showing signs of coming back to us.

Can't wait for the next completely new platforms and a 5 facelift.

cove148 · January 2005

What period of time does these sales figures cover?

merc1 · January 2005

Those are calendar year 2004 sales figures.

M

kyfdx · January 2005

I agree.. subtle changes can make a big difference.. I never got the 745i tail light treatment, until I came up on it from the rear at night.. The lights line up nicely then, but are completely off when viewing it in the daytime.. The facelift (buttlift?) brings the rear look closer to the 5-series... Which is still not great.... but, much better..

kyfdx · January 2005

The horsepower wars continue.. 360 hp on the base 7-series..

michael_mattox · January 2005

Merc:

Welcome back...

I gotta hand it to you...."The oldest car is in second place...

NOW THAT IS TURNING A LEMON INTO LEMONAID.

oac · January 2005

Yes, but that 360hp only does a 5.8s 0-60. What's that ? The '05 LS430 does that already with a motor that is 70hp less. Must be the new 7 is bloated with more weight, eh ?

kyfdx · January 2005

I don't know.. Edmunds shows 5.9 for the Lexus.. and BMW claims the same for the current 745i..

But, more weight is right.. about 475 lbs. more.. I wouldn't exactly say bloated, though.. The Lexus is very light for a full-sized car.. You have to like that..

Bloated? That would be the Mercedes..

regards,

kyfdx

oac · January 2005

Can't wait for the next completely new platforms and a 5 facelift.

Won't that be too soon ? Considering the new design is only 1 MY in the market ?

I agree with you, the new 7 looks much better. Interestingly, my wife (not a car-fan by any long stretch) told me she likes the 7-series the best of all f/s luxury cars. Better than the Lex or MB. She thinks it looks much more solid than its competition. Go figure. I have learnt not to publiclly disagree with her, so there you have it. What she says I agree with. Now I am coming out in the open to proclaim my admiration for the 7-series cos' my wife said so. There....

wbreaux1 · January 2005

Looked at the cars today at the auto show; I love going to be able to compare all the cars at once. Couldn't believe there was no 7 series there. Otherwise I loved the XJ8L and the A8. I'd take the A8 (I think it's the best looking car both inside and out, especially inside), but with the price diff the XJ8L comes out ahead to me. One thing I couldn't get over was the $20k premium for an S500 over an XJ8L. No idea why that exists, other than MB name. And I'm a current MB owner so not knocking MB, just don't see how they charge such a premium over similar cars. Of course this analysis is by looking and sitting, no driving. . .

vwguild2 · January 2005

Are not typically not priority #1 for most buyers in this segment...no one is looking for a slug, but many years have gone by since boasting about such things in the cafeteria lunch line to impress was the thing to do...

And, of course, I am very pleased to see the PHAETON get so close to the goal numbers for it's rookie season...

merc1 · January 2005

Actually the only cars in this class that are "bloated" are the VW Phaeton V8, Audi A8L and the 745i/Li, all of which weigh more than a S430 or S500.

M

bobcatman · January 2005

On the 7 series. What change? Ugly still is ugly. Marginal best description. The worst offending most criticized detail is left the same. A Bavarian Lexus GS inspired hunchback scaled up and more offending. I-drive is on what Microsoft 3.0 now? BMW should pay attention what Lexi did to LS refresh much sleaker, bolder front end styling from previous. Impressive sales figure late in the game.

Saw my first new A8, rear end treatment looks pretty generic, nondescript for its price tag. This car so much wants to join the big "A" list crowd but Audi's 2nd tier status and spotty previous product image and quality wont be happening any time soon. Better get it if you like it as is, the A8 too gets the Mack truck Semi grill. Amazing, Acura sold over 70K TL's last year alone and Audi sold a little over 80K for the entire division here. Pretty sad sales figures given the A4 does 60% of the revenue. But then the A4 never really outshined any competitor anyways.

princeabubu · January 2005

Well, I personally really like the BMW design, and the one thing I didn't like, BMW changed. That would be the front end. I thought the headlights were the worst part of the car. I never had a problem with the rear, and I think it looks better now than it ever has. It seems like the car is a bit less masculine now with those eagle eyes gone. I really like it. However, this is what the original car should have looked like...

blckislandguy · January 2005

FWIW, thats why I bought the black interior. The "Havana beige" on a Porsche looks really nice in the photos but for a daily driver?.

oac · January 2005

I am re-visiting the link provided by Merc1 re the 2006 7-series

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050127.007/page/1/l- ang/eng/bmw/1.html

and providing a couple excerpts that are just too funny to ignore:

BMWs iDrive control concept, the ergonomically sensible combination of single-button control and display monitor introduced in 2001 and much copied since then, has now been further refined....

Huh ? The idrive is now "much copied" ? By who ???

All BMW 7 Series now feature BMWs two-stage Adaptive Brakelights: Whenever the driver applies the brakes harder than usual, motorists following behind are warned by the larger brake light area.

I am supposed to keep my eyes glued to the rear of the Bimmer just to see that *larger brake light area* when brakes are applied too hard. Huh ? What a feature ???

The optional CD changer is now MP3 CD-capable

An optional CD changer on a $80K+ car ? Geez... You can get a CD changer standard on $30K cars, but not on a BMW 7-series ?

What would they think of next ???

designman · January 2005

Once again, BMW buyers put up with a lot. A guy in one of the 7-series threads admits that he hates the look, but he can't buy anything else because of the ride. RIDE, think RIDE.

I really like what they did with the derriereadded a lot of horizontal detail to camouflage the trunk lid, kind of like Frank Lloyd Wright architecture. And your wife is right about it looking solidlike a metamorphic mountain of stainless steelimpervious to nuclear blasts.

princeabubu · January 2005

The info from GermanCarFans is straight from BMW NA, so it's no surprise that they are hyping all this stuff that really isn't that big of a deal...

merc1 · January 2005

Yeah you have to read press releases with a big (*) in mind. I think BMW might be referring to the knob/controller in the new RL and I think they probably know the next S-Class' interior layout, considering they are both German companies. GM and Ford have moles in each others companies as do Toyota and Nissan, hell any company worth their salt spies on whoever they think is competition.

M

designman · January 2005

I read somewhere that many of the staff designers know each other having gone to the same schools. They allegedly share ideas when they hobnob. Not sure I believe this but it could happen as there are so many curious similarities among brands. In my business it doesn't happenwe'd be shot if we did that sort of thing. Everyone is protective of their work. Then again, the MO in auto manufacturing is probably quite different. Industry cultures vary considerably.

footie · January 2005

Per Autoweek, Mercedes low sales in the U.S. allowed Cadillac to push them into 4th place in the Luxury market in the U.S. Lexus and BMW were 1st and 2nd.

Mercedes also announced continuation of the employee discount plan for Chrysler workers. Now those workers and up to six family members (hope remains supreme) can get a discount of 12.5% off sticker. I can just imagine that all of those UAW folks are gonna step right up and save the company by taking home a new S600 for $109K and change.

paldi · January 2005

I am considering offering myself up for adoption to any Mercedez Benz employee.

oac · January 2005

like a metamorphic mountain of stainless steelimpervious to nuclear blasts

That, imo, is an excellent marketing caption for the 7-series. BMW execs, hello ?? Are you reading this ???

And designman, Lexus owners put up with a lot as well. Like exterior design that is conservative (some call it bland and vanilla), electronics that work as intended, and the RIDE that is, well, CUSHY and PLUSH ! See, we do suffer the same indignities of our chosen brand as well.

designman · January 2005

Well, I'm starting to see that you are not the typical LS buyer. You've got a bit of the BMW disease. I remember how enthused you were about your friend's 330.

oac · January 2005

I LOVE the 330. I've driven it quite a few times (have 2 friends with identical 2001 330ci). I've always said that the only alternative for me not buying a 330ci would be an IS350 coupe/vert, assuming the latter is comparable in ride, handling, and performance, and with higher reliability and better pricing. Who wouldn't take the Lex under such conditions ?

merc1 · January 2005

Well, my opinion of the 7-Series doesn't change with this facelift. More power wasn't needed. A totaly redesign of the rear end was, imo. Idrive is still present in modified form. Can't wait until 2009.

M

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