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I grew up in a household of Mercedes-Benz cars, and my father bought his first M-B (a 1968 280-SE) when most people were still coveting Cadillacs.
But I'm here to tell you that M-B quality has diminished, I'm no longer loyal to the brand, and Lexus products appeal to me.
BTW: My opinion has also been swayed by the fact that VERY few cars are now truly exclusive. If you can sign your name, you can drive whatever you want. In my city, expensive brands/cars are EVERYWHERE. I mean, really, who's impressed? When everyone drives a luxury marque, will anybody notice?
We're still holding on to my late mother's '92 300-E because it has less than 70K on the odo, and it represents the last of an era when Mercedes-Benz products were built to a standard, not to a price.
Chow-time
Audi sold how many A8's last year ? 5900 units. Whoopie ? Many buyers must love it so much that it came at a distant 4th position to LS/S/7 in sales. Must be only the 6K people want that rock solid good handling well put together feel of the German-engineered Audi A8.
As to gizmos ? You gotta be kidding ! If you mean gizmos that actually work as intended, absolutely the Lexus trumps the competition. But for sheer gizmos, no car beats the S-class ! You should know what you are talking about before jumping in here.
beautiful automobile. nope.... it doesn't sell in the numbers that an LS430 does. I'm sure one of those reasons is price. the A8 is more expensive and also is only available with awd.
another nice quality about the A8 is the ability to purchase the car in a long wheel base version or short. plus....what's more advanced than an automobile made completely of aluminum? right now the demand for the A8 is pretty strong. better discounts are available on the LS by far. take a look at what options are available in an A8, S, or 7. take a good hard look. these are upscale luxury cars. the Ls430 is just not in the same league. nice car but not enough of it. but...i do think Lexus will within 10 years produce a vehicle that is comparable.
as for the S class being king....what i was trying to convey is that the S class dominates in its segment. i was excluding the brands that sell at price points starting above 150k.
what color and options did you get?
the Japanese make nice automobiles but
they need help.... in my opinion in the
styling department. they either are too
bland or just strange in appearance. they seem to have
their electronics down pat. when it comes
to HP and available options the Germans just plain stomp on them.
Now you don't have to decide what to buy using the rankings in these mags, and as I said before, the most desirable car is in the eyes of the beholder, but saying the LS is not comparable with the 7,S and A8 is plain ridiculous.
But three years from now, a $35,000 '05 A8 will be on my shopping list.
...take a look at what options are available in an A8, S, or 7. take a good hard look. these are upscale luxury cars. the Ls430 is just not in the same league...
I have taken a good hard look at these options and fail to see what makes the A8/S/7 *more upscale* than the LS. Only thing I saw were AWD (A8)/4Matic (S). Care to tell us what else makes your German makes more upscale than the LS? Please don't say looks.....
Oh, I get it: a need to justify your new purchase.
ah ah ah ah ah ah
and yes i know that Audi's don't hold their
value as well as Lexus. cars are like mutual funds that only go down in value...even Lexus.
I've often wondered if the addition of the AWD hurts the resale because of the way the vehicle would be used.
Audi's, MB, and BMW all have 12 cylinder engines,
LWB and SWB, 2 of 3 AWD, leather everywhere interiors, true sport versions, active suspensions.
as for the automobile magazines...i get them all. i do respect the opinions of the testers. when doing comparisons they always factor in price/value. Lexus is usually the big winner in this category. what is lost in the discussion though is that the German platforms are available in more configurations with more drive train choices. this naturally increases cost to the manufacturer. another note. whenever you read about the S class in tests 9 times out 10 it is the S430. the smallest engine available. also the S only comes in a Long version which I'm sure removes some of the handling prowess.
Here is how a large sample of owners rated them (on non-reliability issues, since we all know who wins on reliability):
Performance: LS 5, A8 3, 7 5, S 3
Comfort: LS 5, A8 3, 7 5, S 3
Features & Instrument Panel: LS 5, A8 3, 7 4, S 3
Style: LS 3, A8 3, 7 4, S 3
Overall Appeal: LS 5, A8 3, 7 5, S 3
all on a scale of 0 to 5, 5 being best
source http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwards.jsp
Who is "not in the same class"? Maybe its the A8 and S that aren't in the same class as the LS and 7.
Maybe you think the A8 is in a class above the LS, but I'll go with a large professionally measured sample, rather than a sample of one (namely, you).
no justification needed!
the point i [aka "namely,you"] am trying to make is that Lexus does not offer enough options and variables to truly be able to compete with the Germans. if you disagree that's great. no problem here! but next time you need an AWD, 12 cylinder, or LWB Lexus....you ain't getting it!!!!
As for the V12 - that's coming as well from Lexus or a hybrid variant of it which is much a smarter way to go. But let's see if Audi can even sell 250 of their V12's in a year. MB sells about 1500 and BMW about 700 on average. There aren't many who want it or are willing to pay for it.
Does your remote have a button for instant reconfiguration to V12 or length stretching? If not, why should those options be a consideration to evaluating the worth of _your_ A8 at all?
I met someone this weekend who is a bit of a car nut in So Cal. Very rich guy with several big houses, etc.
He says that for him, MB doesn't provide a good fit either for luxury or sportiness. He still likes BMW but he independently brought up the WSJ article about MB's problems.
He has an LS430 for work travel, a 2004 Maserati Spyder for sporty driving, a big Chevy Suburban, and an old Jag (don't know which one) to restore. He had a Porsche but switched to the Maserati. I know he has other cars, but I didn't see them as they were at another location.
It doesn't take many like him to change the image of MB at the margin. And it's the margin that determines profitability.
Answer: Exactly one.
Question: how many variants of 2005 Ford Focus are out there?
Answer: more than half a dozen.
Does that mean Rolls is low-brow when compared to Ford?
If you know your core audience, you don't need numerous variants. A platform has to be engineered for a specific engine/drive-train for optimal driving dynamics. Numerous variants only serve to compromise driving dynamics. e.g. the S class platform is obviously engineered for its core 8-cyl market; that's why the AMG cars are using 8-cyl not 12-cyl engines.
Nope, you're right after Detroit, the Chicago show just doesn't make as big of an impression. Not very much new there, now New York is a different story.
M
This is the hot as hell SRT-8 version. Your styling critique please.......
M
Well for those see the earlier Detroit review I guess, there really wasn't anything new for those brands at Chicago. The Phaeton and cousin A8L remiain my favorites in the segment, especially their repsective W12, 4-seater versions. Awesome. Oh! That Jaguar Lightweight Coupe Concept is awesome, but like I said before (I think somewhere) it kinda looks like a junior Aston-Martin, which is no bad thing in my book. There are much worse looking cars out there to imitate. The Maserati Quattroporte like the A8 has an optional all wooden steering wheel. I mean the entire wheel is wood and it is tacky and could be dangerous when sweaty hands are grasping to make that crucial turn. I'm surprised at Audi which always considered wooden steering wheels to be a tacky American car thing. Thats about all that has "come" to me since....
M
Since when does variety of engines and wheelbases apply to the prestige argument? As someone rightly pointed out, that would mean a Ford Focus is more prestigious than a Rolls Royce.
Lexus has a few models that are considered Luxury cars, LS, SC, GS..I'd call the ES an entry level Lux sedan..I think prestige is formed by high quality, driving experience, customer service, and of course Public Perception. As far as engine options go, Lexus is going that route you prescribed in 2007. You've also refered to price as another criteria..
Did it ever occur to you that most of those models are vastly overpriced? I don't see how Jaguar can charge $80K (VDP?) for a car that isn't very competitive..Same goes for the S430..At $78K I found it somewhat lacking in terms of equipment. The Mercedes dealer I went to freely admitted that they couldn't compete with Lexus on price..He was trying to steer me towards the subjective argument of "feel and prestige.."
You only seem to hear German car enthusiasts putting down Lexus as a second rate marque. No one can deny the Original LS400 changed the whole industry. Sure it doesn't have the 100 yr tradition of the others, but it's success more than justifies it being a player in this market. Btw, does anyone know when each marque was established? I know MB is the oldest but don't know much about the other brands.
As far as Gizmo's go, you can argue the Germans have gone a step further with all this iDrive interface nonsense. Lexus adds electronics without them being too intrusive and they work flawlessly.The sole exception is this drive by wire nonsense..(What was the point of that?) Do I really need a computer to push the gas pedal??
A more general comment..All these electronic toys are great...But what happens when they decide to stop working? The more complicated you make it, the more likely it's going to have issues..I still don't think I should have to use my touchscreen to access basic A/C and radio controls...Doesn't Audi or Infinti have a pop-up NAV screen with separate controls for everything else..I can only imagine when this thing breaks in 8-10 yrs what it's going to cost me to fix it.
SV
That's why the S and 7 are getting their heads handed to them by the LS.
If this argument was true, then all those folks would be ordering off the infinitely variable MB / BMW option lists and the LS would be fading into the past. In fact, just the opposite is true. The LS is fully-featured and buying one isn't complicated or requires a Phd. from Wurttenberg U to figure out.
It is true however, that Mercedes little advertising jingle "Like No Other" is right on target. They can't get two of them to come out the same even when they want to. Different bugs in each one insures customer individualization!
BTW, as brightness04 suggested, does your V8 feel "more luxurious" to you because the car also comes in a W12, even though you don't own one? I guess then if I bought a C230, I could feel "more luxurious" because MB also makes an S600, right?
Also, just what does an LWB version of an A8 get you? More interior room than an LS? Nope, 107 cu ft vs 107. More trunk space? Nope, 20.2 cu ft for the LS vs 14.6.
The Germans are soooo great at engineering...why can't they engineer more space in a LWB SEDAN?
Ford Focus has even more engine/body variation, and your point being? Since you purchased the SWB V8 A8, obviously you got nothing out of the plethra of variants.
But this thing of saying your brand is superior because that's your buying preference has reached the ridiculous point. As for near luxury vs. high-end luxury I'd put the ES, C, A-4 and 3-series all in the near lux segment and the E, 5, A6, and GS and larger sedans all in the luxury segment. We'll see where the new IS fits but it's a fork in the road for Lexus. It's past emphasis was not luxury or near luxury in my opinion and was served up too early by Lexus. All three Lexus SUV's are luxury vehicles to me. I would have left out the RX in the past but it has been greatly improved from what had been near lux. The X5 is there too as a lux suv but it's RX size. The ML is as bad as the IS in trying to figure out where it belongs. I think as brands Acura and Infiniti are near luxury. Life is simple and too short to be arguing the obvious.
Now wait a min, just because Chrysler (I assume you're talking about my question to desigman about the 300C) can actually make a good looking car all of sudden styling has been a "patch fix" for Mercedes' problems. That is the part that seems ridiculous to me my friend. Is this the theory because Lexus can't style a good looking car to go with all their quality and surveys for all those who actually look for more than a glowing JDP or CR report in their vehicle? I've ridden in the car and I could see out if it fine, and guess what most cars are getting taller and harder to see out of nowadays. Why do you think Lexus and others have started offering rear mounted cameras in their cars.
BTW, 10 years ago the C, E, S, and other Mercedes were of traditional Mercedes upright design, not the swoopier models out today. The sleeker theme you see today started with the 2000 S-Class.
M
Lets' see here. MB is 118+-yr-old, BMW is 80+-yr-old, and Lexus is what ? 15-yr-old ??? See any point in that history ? Lexus is a *young* company, and will only grow at the expense of the others (has done that so far). Even the one-size-fits-all LS is doing extremely well compared to the multiple-size-fits=everyone S and BMW versions. Take US sales of all S-class (430/500/600/55), then add all 7-series (745/760) and you just about match the LS430 sales. Hmmmmm ! What can one infer from this fact ? Does the market not speak for these cars in terms of their sales ?
Finally, by MY2008 or thereafter, there will be other variants of the LS - LS460/500/GT, including LWB and SWB trims. And oh, imagine a hybrid Lexus lux-car with ~600hp V12-like output, but delivers a refreshing V6-like gas economy ??? What would MB and Audi and BMW throw at Lexus to compete with this car ?
Now, if having all those S and A8 variations is so desirable, and if the S and A8 are sooooo much more luxurious than the LS (to the point that they are in a different and higher class entirely, according to you), how could that sales performance possibly happen????
WHAT AMENITIES DOES YOUR AUDI HAVE? Especially anything that I haven't Mentioned...I am truly curious.
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M
M
If price elasticity were that high, all Audi would have to do is lower its prices to LS levels, and volumes would explode...Audi would mint money based on the incremental profits of each car.
Put another way, if Audi lowered its prices to LS levels, does anyone think that it would sell the same number of units as the LS? Come on!
Arrogance never improved a production process... even the venerable Porsche has teamed to a degree with Toyota to improve production processes.
It's folks at the country club and the fund raising soiree's that are going 'my new MB has been in the shop so much it seems like they ought to be making payments on it, not us'.
They aren't reading JDPower either, but they are getting real tired of sending the Service Supervisor's kid to Yale.
just to bring everyone up to date...the discussion and point i am trying to convey is that Lexus still has a long way to go to be a top notch Luxury automaker. the whole point about variations in the offerings by the German brands is this...they offer more to the upscale luxury car buyer. the LS is the best that Lexus has for now so any pontifications about the future are absolutely meaningless at this point in time.
when it comes to the vehicle i drive that is another topic all together. the A8 i just purchased has these options...adaptive cruise control, parktronic, 18" wheels, XM radio, power closing front and rear side doors, heated front and rear seats, heated steering wheel, electric rear sunscreen,manual rear side window sun shades, power one touch trunk close and open, advanced key(key less start). those were all the optional items. here are some of the notable standard items......10 airbags, onstar, nav, power everything, 12 speaker 5 channel surround, sub woofer, center fill speaker, audio pilot noise compensation(neat stuff automatically counters and cancels unwanted noise).......and of course All Wheel Drive!
interior cubic volume.....114.9
A8L interior cubic Volume.....121.5
yeah....i guess they engineered it in!
also the A8 has adjustable suspension but it goes one step further. you are actually able to put the car in lift mode. this raises the car in case you need to go over a speed bump without damaging the car. the car will automatically lower itself at speed and also firm up the suspension or you can set it ahead of time. the MMI navigation screen can be tucked away with the information then reported in the center of the drivers interior dash. the heated seats have 5 different temperature setting. the warranty on corrosion is a 12 year unlimited mileage warranty. the list goes on and on. everything an LS430 has and more. plus...it actually is enjoyable to look at! comfortable or sporty in an instant...even without the push of a button.
and guys...Audi even goes higher...all leather interior, double pane security glass, 12 cylinders, longer wheel base....etc.
these differences separate what Lexus is today to what the Germans are today. tomorrow maybe another story. overall the Germans sell more of their luxury cars worldwide than Lexus many times over. also as the LS430 has just surpassed the sales of the S class in the past 2 years. i will post the past 2 years sales numbers and you will see that it is not selling in the numbers posted above.
on a side not....my wife's going to divorce me if i keep spending all of my time on the computer!
A8L interior cubic Volume.....121.5
yeah....i guess they engineered it in!"
Audi must have some uniquely contrived definition of interior volume to make themselves look good, because when passenger volume is measured in a STANDARDIZED way by the government EPA, they come up with 100 for the A8, 107 for the LS, 107 for the A8L, 108 for the Phaeton. The Audi website clearly uses inflated numbers, whereas VW's site does not. If I were a class-action lawyer I think I'd have good grounds to squeeze Audi for some dough. Maybe Audi would say, "we didn't specify 'passenger volume', we only said 'interior volume' which of course includes the trunk" or something equally idiotic.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
When it comes to features of an A8 vs LS, you need to consider the different trim levels of the LS. I don't see anything that unique to the A8, with the exception of AWD. But you can't get the A8 in RWD, can you? Which some people actually prefer. One thing you can be sure of is that when Lexus puts AWD on the LS, it'll be an OPTION.
http://www.lexus.com/models/ls/price_options.html
It's also not true that the A8 has "everything an LS430 has and more"...for instance, a backup camera, or a Mark Levinson sound system that has seen rave reviews in true audiophile publications such as The Absolute Sound, or a little refrigerator for the rear passengers. Maybe a little over the top, by YOU are the one who started talking about luxury appointments.
"contrived". i have an 05 A8 brochure and that's where i found the numbers. the SWB A8
and the LS should be the same by my eye. the A8L has a wheelbase that is 5 inches longer than both. the back seat is enormous. i just don't see how they could be the same. the Phaeton also comes in a long and short version.
when it comes to the "OPTION" of awd ...MB offers that as we speak on the S,E,and C class. Audi tends to do more of it's vehicles in the awd(QUATTRO)fashion. it is kind of like their niche. A8's only come with AWD.
i've got a question. now that Acura has the new RL with 300HP and SHAWD(super handling all wheel drive) would it be accurate to say that the RL is now the equal or even greater than the LS430?
For most of us and the rest of the world as viewed in every publication you will ever read Lexus arrived about 10-12 years ago as a lux nameplate in their infant years. Now for me the Germans have a long way to go on quality and reliability because a true lux car should be something you can bank on. After all true luxury is one that not only gives you luxury amenities but combines that with the feeling that something is built as solidly as possible and you know it will always work. That is the way just about every Lexus owner feels and that is why their scores always beat Germany's best - usually by embarrassingly wide margins. Before the early 1990's that was MB's claim to fame and the feeling their owners had.
a high performance A8 with 360hp
and other performance options.