High End Luxury Cars

heywood1 · February 2005

I've been lurking here for a while, but never posted on this board before.

I grew up in a household of Mercedes-Benz cars, and my father bought his first M-B (a 1968 280-SE) when most people were still coveting Cadillacs.

But I'm here to tell you that M-B quality has diminished, I'm no longer loyal to the brand, and Lexus products appeal to me.

BTW: My opinion has also been swayed by the fact that VERY few cars are now truly exclusive. If you can sign your name, you can drive whatever you want. In my city, expensive brands/cars are EVERYWHERE. I mean, really, who's impressed? When everyone drives a luxury marque, will anybody notice?

We're still holding on to my late mother's '92 300-E because it has less than 70K on the odo, and it represents the last of an era when Mercedes-Benz products were built to a standard, not to a price.

oac · February 2005

flyfisher:

Chow-time

Audi sold how many A8's last year ? 5900 units. Whoopie ? Many buyers must love it so much that it came at a distant 4th position to LS/S/7 in sales. Must be only the 6K people want that rock solid good handling well put together feel of the German-engineered Audi A8.

As to gizmos ? You gotta be kidding ! If you mean gizmos that actually work as intended, absolutely the Lexus trumps the competition. But for sheer gizmos, no car beats the S-class ! You should know what you are talking about before jumping in here.

hpowders · February 2005

Gizmos? Gizmos? We don't need no stinkin' gizmos!!

denaliinpa · February 2005

i just purchased an 05 SWB A8.

beautiful automobile. nope.... it doesn't sell in the numbers that an LS430 does. I'm sure one of those reasons is price. the A8 is more expensive and also is only available with awd.

another nice quality about the A8 is the ability to purchase the car in a long wheel base version or short. plus....what's more advanced than an automobile made completely of aluminum? right now the demand for the A8 is pretty strong. better discounts are available on the LS by far. take a look at what options are available in an A8, S, or 7. take a good hard look. these are upscale luxury cars. the Ls430 is just not in the same league. nice car but not enough of it. but...i do think Lexus will within 10 years produce a vehicle that is comparable.

as for the S class being king....what i was trying to convey is that the S class dominates in its segment. i was excluding the brands that sell at price points starting above 150k.

denaliinpa · February 2005

hello flyfisher1,

what color and options did you get?

the Japanese make nice automobiles but

they need help.... in my opinion in the

styling department. they either are too

bland or just strange in appearance. they seem to have

their electronics down pat. when it comes

to HP and available options the Germans just plain stomp on them.

gscoupe · February 2005

LS430 not comparable with S, 7 and A8 ? LOL !! Not according to even the enthusiast magazines. Not only is the LS430 tested together with these cars, but it came out first & second & the results are not price adjusted, so the LS430 really did very well against them not because it cost less than the others. Where is the S class? It's placed last in one & I think 4th in another.And these enthusiast magazines usually are heavily biased towards more sporty & more German feel vehicles too. They also acknowledged that the LS is probably the best equipped of them all, & they didn't even take into account the fact that all the gizmos actually works more flawlessly than those in the European brands as all the surveys known worldwide has showned.

Now you don't have to decide what to buy using the rankings in these mags, and as I said before, the most desirable car is in the eyes of the beholder, but saying the LS is not comparable with the 7,S and A8 is plain ridiculous.

heywood1 · February 2005

No question, the A8 is a spectacular automobile. But unless the recent accolades from the automotive press drive up its re-sale numbers--not to mention doing something about the high cost of insuring an aluminum-bodied vehicle--it's hardly a contender for Lexus in the 'best value' category.

But three years from now, a $35,000 '05 A8 will be on my shopping list.

syswei · February 2005

What precisely are the available options on the A8 SWB that get you so excited, that make it an "upscale luxury car" with "the Ls430 is just not in the same league"?

syswei · February 2005

Full-size luxury SEDANS are imho supposed to offer ROOM as part of the luxury equation. And imho that should extend the trunk as well, yet the A8 (whether LWB or SWB) offers only 14.6 cu ft, less than an E, A6, or even ES.

oac · February 2005

First off, congrats on the new A8. A very fine automobile. Beautiful interior, maybe the finest interior of all lux-cars sold here in the US.

...take a look at what options are available in an A8, S, or 7. take a good hard look. these are upscale luxury cars. the Ls430 is just not in the same league...

I have taken a good hard look at these options and fail to see what makes the A8/S/7 *more upscale* than the LS. Only thing I saw were AWD (A8)/4Matic (S). Care to tell us what else makes your German makes more upscale than the LS? Please don't say looks.....

Oh, I get it: a need to justify your new purchase.

ah ah ah ah ah ah

denaliinpa · February 2005

....ahhhh...all wheel drive!

and yes i know that Audi's don't hold their

value as well as Lexus. cars are like mutual funds that only go down in value...even Lexus.

I've often wondered if the addition of the AWD hurts the resale because of the way the vehicle would be used.

Audi's, MB, and BMW all have 12 cylinder engines,

LWB and SWB, 2 of 3 AWD, leather everywhere interiors, true sport versions, active suspensions.

as for the automobile magazines...i get them all. i do respect the opinions of the testers. when doing comparisons they always factor in price/value. Lexus is usually the big winner in this category. what is lost in the discussion though is that the German platforms are available in more configurations with more drive train choices. this naturally increases cost to the manufacturer. another note. whenever you read about the S class in tests 9 times out 10 it is the S430. the smallest engine available. also the S only comes in a Long version which I'm sure removes some of the handling prowess.

syswei · February 2005

A8,S,7 "upscale luxury cars....the Ls430 is just not in the same league". Says who?

Here is how a large sample of owners rated them (on non-reliability issues, since we all know who wins on reliability):

Performance: LS 5, A8 3, 7 5, S 3

Comfort: LS 5, A8 3, 7 5, S 3

Features & Instrument Panel: LS 5, A8 3, 7 4, S 3

Style: LS 3, A8 3, 7 4, S 3

Overall Appeal: LS 5, A8 3, 7 5, S 3

all on a scale of 0 to 5, 5 being best

source http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwards.jsp

Who is "not in the same class"? Maybe its the A8 and S that aren't in the same class as the LS and 7.

Maybe you think the A8 is in a class above the LS, but I'll go with a large professionally measured sample, rather than a sample of one (namely, you).

denaliinpa · February 2005

thanks for the congrats!

no justification needed!

denaliinpa · February 2005

i have to laugh every time anyone who drives a Lexus needs jdpowers statistics to support and propel any debate about the vehicles they purchased! jdpowers jdpowers!!!

the point i [aka "namely,you"] am trying to make is that Lexus does not offer enough options and variables to truly be able to compete with the Germans. if you disagree that's great. no problem here! but next time you need an AWD, 12 cylinder, or LWB Lexus....you ain't getting it!!!!

ljflx · February 2005

I don't get it when you talk about all these engines and platform options. MB's S had two engines in the affordable range for their base cars - a 275HP and a 303 HP when I shopped in 2001. The LS had one engine, the 290HP. The A8 had one engine, a 310 HP and they had just discontinued the SWB edition because they sold less than 500 of these in the two preceeding years in the US per the dealer I shopped at. I haven't seen much change since then except that Audi brought back the slow selling SWB this year. I'm not counting in the S55 and S600 because they are very low selling custom cars for all intent and purpose. Kudos to MB for the limited production cars and options that no one else offers (even in the base cars) but anyone shopping for the more generic cars isn't dealing with as much variety as you describe. With MB - when you buy the more generic S-class as more than 90% of all buyers do (or E or anything else) you are also paying the freight for the variety that they offer even though you chose to pass on those options. If you want to be as full service as that you average in the overhead and other costs that allows that versatility onto each and every car. But if you consider a SWB car with one engine and a LWB car with another as a big amount of choices than I guess you are right. But it's only one more than Lexus and it won't last much longer as Lexus has said they will offer a LWB car in 2007.

As for the V12 - that's coming as well from Lexus or a hybrid variant of it which is much a smarter way to go. But let's see if Audi can even sell 250 of their V12's in a year. MB sells about 1500 and BMW about 700 on average. There aren't many who want it or are willing to pay for it.

brightness04 · February 2005

This is the funniest argument yet. So, BMW having a 6.0L V12 somehow makes your A8SWB more than a short wheel base 4.0L V8??

Does your remote have a button for instant reconfiguration to V12 or length stretching? If not, why should those options be a consideration to evaluating the worth of _your_ A8 at all?

jvcn · February 2005

This is purely anecdotal so make of it what you will:

I met someone this weekend who is a bit of a car nut in So Cal. Very rich guy with several big houses, etc.

He says that for him, MB doesn't provide a good fit either for luxury or sportiness. He still likes BMW but he independently brought up the WSJ article about MB's problems.

He has an LS430 for work travel, a 2004 Maserati Spyder for sporty driving, a big Chevy Suburban, and an old Jag (don't know which one) to restore. He had a Porsche but switched to the Maserati. I know he has other cars, but I didn't see them as they were at another location.

It doesn't take many like him to change the image of MB at the margin. And it's the margin that determines profitability.

brightness04 · February 2005

Question: how many variants of 2005 Rolls-Royce Phantom are out there?

Answer: Exactly one.

Question: how many variants of 2005 Ford Focus are out there?

Answer: more than half a dozen.

Does that mean Rolls is low-brow when compared to Ford?

If you know your core audience, you don't need numerous variants. A platform has to be engineered for a specific engine/drive-train for optimal driving dynamics. Numerous variants only serve to compromise driving dynamics. e.g. the S class platform is obviously engineered for its core 8-cyl market; that's why the AMG cars are using 8-cyl not 12-cyl engines.

deanedell · February 2005

has an interesting rant this week about DCX and MB in particular. Should be interesting reading for those who read this forum.

merc1 · February 2005

"Thanks for the report. It looks kinda scanty... or is it that I don't have my reading glasses on ?"

Nope, you're right after Detroit, the Chicago show just doesn't make as big of an impression. Not very much new there, now New York is a different story.

M

merc1 · February 2005

I've never asked your view on the Chrysler 300:

This is the hot as hell SRT-8 version. Your styling critique please.......

M

merc1 · February 2005

"How 'bout Jaguar, Phaeton, Acura, Ferrari, AM, etc... And your favorite, Maserati Q... Maybe more details on these cars later as they come to you ???

Well for those see the earlier Detroit review I guess, there really wasn't anything new for those brands at Chicago. The Phaeton and cousin A8L remiain my favorites in the segment, especially their repsective W12, 4-seater versions. Awesome. Oh! That Jaguar Lightweight Coupe Concept is awesome, but like I said before (I think somewhere) it kinda looks like a junior Aston-Martin, which is no bad thing in my book. There are much worse looking cars out there to imitate. The Maserati Quattroporte like the A8 has an optional all wooden steering wheel. I mean the entire wheel is wood and it is tacky and could be dangerous when sweaty hands are grasping to make that crucial turn. I'm surprised at Audi which always considered wooden steering wheels to be a tacky American car thing. Thats about all that has "come" to me since....

M

denaliinpa · February 2005

the discussion was about the "Brands" and their ability manufacture what "I" consider high end luxury automobiles. Lexus as a brand only has one vehicle that reaches out of the "Near Luxury" segment....the LS430.... while all of the German manufacturers go much further. one thing that i haven't even mentioned was the VW Phaeton. it even has more engine combinations and also comes in a swb and lwb version. in this segment "I" believe the customer wants more than a one size fits all approach. this is just another difference that separates "Z" Germans from the Japanese.

sv7887 · February 2005

Hi All,

Since when does variety of engines and wheelbases apply to the prestige argument? As someone rightly pointed out, that would mean a Ford Focus is more prestigious than a Rolls Royce.

Lexus has a few models that are considered Luxury cars, LS, SC, GS..I'd call the ES an entry level Lux sedan..I think prestige is formed by high quality, driving experience, customer service, and of course Public Perception. As far as engine options go, Lexus is going that route you prescribed in 2007. You've also refered to price as another criteria..

Did it ever occur to you that most of those models are vastly overpriced? I don't see how Jaguar can charge $80K (VDP?) for a car that isn't very competitive..Same goes for the S430..At $78K I found it somewhat lacking in terms of equipment. The Mercedes dealer I went to freely admitted that they couldn't compete with Lexus on price..He was trying to steer me towards the subjective argument of "feel and prestige.."

You only seem to hear German car enthusiasts putting down Lexus as a second rate marque. No one can deny the Original LS400 changed the whole industry. Sure it doesn't have the 100 yr tradition of the others, but it's success more than justifies it being a player in this market. Btw, does anyone know when each marque was established? I know MB is the oldest but don't know much about the other brands.

As far as Gizmo's go, you can argue the Germans have gone a step further with all this iDrive interface nonsense. Lexus adds electronics without them being too intrusive and they work flawlessly.The sole exception is this drive by wire nonsense..(What was the point of that?) Do I really need a computer to push the gas pedal??

A more general comment..All these electronic toys are great...But what happens when they decide to stop working? The more complicated you make it, the more likely it's going to have issues..I still don't think I should have to use my touchscreen to access basic A/C and radio controls...Doesn't Audi or Infinti have a pop-up NAV screen with separate controls for everything else..I can only imagine when this thing breaks in 8-10 yrs what it's going to cost me to fix it.

SV

footie · February 2005

Right.

That's why the S and 7 are getting their heads handed to them by the LS.

If this argument was true, then all those folks would be ordering off the infinitely variable MB / BMW option lists and the LS would be fading into the past. In fact, just the opposite is true. The LS is fully-featured and buying one isn't complicated or requires a Phd. from Wurttenberg U to figure out.

It is true however, that Mercedes little advertising jingle "Like No Other" is right on target. They can't get two of them to come out the same even when they want to. Different bugs in each one insures customer individualization!

syswei · February 2005

Good for you if you're extremely happy with your A8. The point of the JDP data is that you're in a minority among A8 owners; the average A8 owner only gives his car 3 out of 5 stars on non-reliability issues.

BTW, as brightness04 suggested, does your V8 feel "more luxurious" to you because the car also comes in a W12, even though you don't own one? I guess then if I bought a C230, I could feel "more luxurious" because MB also makes an S600, right?

Also, just what does an LWB version of an A8 get you? More interior room than an LS? Nope, 107 cu ft vs 107. More trunk space? Nope, 20.2 cu ft for the LS vs 14.6.

The Germans are soooo great at engineering...why can't they engineer more space in a LWB SEDAN?

brightness04 · February 2005

The discussion is about high end luxury automobiles; what "you" consider luxury personally does not make it so. Your argument that _you_ consider MB higher end luxury than Lexus therefore _you_ consider MB higher end than Lexus is totology; it has about as much relevence to whether MB is actually higher luxury than Lexus as if someone came in here and claimed that Chrysler is higher end luxury than MB in their own mind simply because they think so. Both the Germans and the Japanese were into mind overcoming material reality some half a century ago, and both got a rude awakening by reality as they lost WWII. Japanese learned to make high quality machinery in the subsequent years, while the Germans apparently continued/resumed their tradition of making crap vehicles that choke at the critical moments. That's some tradition all right.

Ford Focus has even more engine/body variation, and your point being? Since you purchased the SWB V8 A8, obviously you got nothing out of the plethra of variants.

ljflx · February 2005

I'll give you mine. It's a great looking car with a lot of presence. I've always thought that when you look at it from it's side, that it's front end was a copy of the old E-class and it's back-end is all Cadillac CTS. The roofline and grill is what really gives it its independence. Have you ever sat in one though? The ability to see the outside world is the worst of any car I ever sat in. Low roofline, high seat backs, squooshed down feeling makes you pay the price for the exterior looks. This tells me that styling and headlines (MB's patch fix for the last 10 years) was what they wanted and let the drivers figure out how to deal with the limited sight they are given. Safety, at least from a visibility standpoint and that's the most important one, was the last thing on the priority list with this car.

ljflx · February 2005

Where's the big luxury SUV?? You can't buy one where you shop. That's how silly and hollow your line of reasoning is. Maybe we should say they are luxury carmakers for all but not luxury vehicle makers for all. But that's an equally silly point of view.I just bring it up to point out the shallowness of your argument.

But this thing of saying your brand is superior because that's your buying preference has reached the ridiculous point. As for near luxury vs. high-end luxury I'd put the ES, C, A-4 and 3-series all in the near lux segment and the E, 5, A6, and GS and larger sedans all in the luxury segment. We'll see where the new IS fits but it's a fork in the road for Lexus. It's past emphasis was not luxury or near luxury in my opinion and was served up too early by Lexus. All three Lexus SUV's are luxury vehicles to me. I would have left out the RX in the past but it has been greatly improved from what had been near lux. The X5 is there too as a lux suv but it's RX size. The ML is as bad as the IS in trying to figure out where it belongs. I think as brands Acura and Infiniti are near luxury. Life is simple and too short to be arguing the obvious.

merc1 · February 2005

"This tells me that styling and headlines (MB's patch fix for the last 10 years) was what they wanted and let the drivers figure out how to deal with the limited sight they are given.

Now wait a min, just because Chrysler (I assume you're talking about my question to desigman about the 300C) can actually make a good looking car all of sudden styling has been a "patch fix" for Mercedes' problems. That is the part that seems ridiculous to me my friend. Is this the theory because Lexus can't style a good looking car to go with all their quality and surveys for all those who actually look for more than a glowing JDP or CR report in their vehicle? I've ridden in the car and I could see out if it fine, and guess what most cars are getting taller and harder to see out of nowadays. Why do you think Lexus and others have started offering rear mounted cameras in their cars.

BTW, 10 years ago the C, E, S, and other Mercedes were of traditional Mercedes upright design, not the swoopier models out today. The sleeker theme you see today started with the 2000 S-Class.

M

brightness04 · February 2005

MB's latest avant garde design cues started with the 1996 S class (introduced in 1995) with the two pairs of size-differentiated bug eyes. So that was about 10 years ago. Before then, for decades, MB used to stand for square grills with square lenses. It was the Italian maker Fiat that was into exterior design flair. MB just sold boring cars on their intrinsic "solidness." We know what eventually happened to Fiat in the competitive North America market.

oac · February 2005

in this segment "I" believe the customer wants more than a one size fits all approach. this is just another difference that separates "Z" Germans from the Japanese.

Lets' see here. MB is 118+-yr-old, BMW is 80+-yr-old, and Lexus is what ? 15-yr-old ??? See any point in that history ? Lexus is a *young* company, and will only grow at the expense of the others (has done that so far). Even the one-size-fits-all LS is doing extremely well compared to the multiple-size-fits=everyone S and BMW versions. Take US sales of all S-class (430/500/600/55), then add all 7-series (745/760) and you just about match the LS430 sales. Hmmmmm ! What can one infer from this fact ? Does the market not speak for these cars in terms of their sales ?

Finally, by MY2008 or thereafter, there will be other variants of the LS - LS460/500/GT, including LWB and SWB trims. And oh, imagine a hybrid Lexus lux-car with ~600hp V12-like output, but delivers a refreshing V6-like gas economy ??? What would MB and Audi and BMW throw at Lexus to compete with this car ?

syswei · February 2005

In the U.S. market, as others have pointed out, the LS outsells the S by a healthy margin and the A8 by a ridiculous margin.

Now, if having all those S and A8 variations is so desirable, and if the S and A8 are sooooo much more luxurious than the LS (to the point that they are in a different and higher class entirely, according to you), how could that sales performance possibly happen????

ljflx · February 2005

Someone will say its because of price, but of course no one looks at the fact that lease prices are very close to one another in all cases except maybe an S500 where there is a 250-300 difference to a $62K LS. In the case of the LS ultra it's lease cost is higher than an A8 even though the latter stickers $5K more. Lexus plays the game with real interest rates and probably residuals that are too low. The others will never sacrifice list price so they resort to very low interest rates, increasing dealer advertising subsidiaries and overstating residuals. That only works until the auditors blow the whistle though. If your a thief you go further and cook the books the way Worldcom and Enron did. If your honest the profit bleed shows up the way it does for VW and MB.

michael_mattox · February 2005

Does your Audi have...AWD...does it have a V12 ..I have a LS430 ULTRA in which the transmission and Steering can be set up for sports mode at the push of a button. I get that and a superior suspension that gives a nicer ride then your Audi...I get Better Service....I get a Lighter Car..a car with cleaner emissions, that gets better milage has ample leg room in the back and front and a much smaller turning radius then your audi and still has a 20 cu.ft. trunk...I have Radar Cruse control, an easy to use Nav. system and the best Audio system put in by a manufacturer, I have through the seat Heating and Cooling, and a computer controlled air suspension system....I am sure you car has the obvious stuff as does mine like Auto wipers, folding outside mirrors that are heated and automatically dim a trailing cars head lights, a seat cusion that adjusts out to give me additional thigh support if I want it...and adjustable lumbar supports suports at two different levels...It has several levels of air filtration to keep out everything you don't want in....Especially pollin and gas odors etc and self closing doors...It also has a whole bunch or rear seat stuff that I wouldn't go into and other amenities that most cars have.

WHAT AMENITIES DOES YOUR AUDI HAVE? Especially anything that I haven't Mentioned...I am truly curious.

Kirstie_H · February 2005

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

merc1 · February 2005

Sorry, but there was no S-Class introduced in 1995 or 1996. The last S-Class came out in 1992. Now if you mean the E-Class of 1996, then yes they changed the front end, but the rest of the car was upright and traditional stody MB design. Take a look at one and you'll see what I mean. The slim, swoopier styling didn't come full circle until the 2000 S-Class and the 2001 C-Class and back again with the 2003 E-Class. The E of 1996 only changed front end light treatment. The start of inset grilles began with the facelift of the previous W124 E-Class in 1994 and the new S-Class of 1992. Small incremental changes at best, the real thing came for 2000 with the totally new S.

M

merc1 · February 2005

I'm reading this about the A8L and LS430 and it's hilarious for the most part but seriously why do you think eveyrone leases? There has been an extreme contradition on this thread from the start. One minute one of the LS430's biggest virtues is that it cost less than the S-Class, 7-Series, or A8, yet in the same post it will be said that they all cost about the same. Which is it? Every one doesn't lease and for cash folks the difference in price does make some type of difference. The average LS doesn't even sell (62-64K) for what a A8, 745i or S430 stickers for, yet this doesn't make a difference? Come on now.

M

syswei · February 2005

Come now, does anyone really believe that whatever price difference there is between the A8 and LS, that that price difference accounts for the LS selling 5.4 TIMES as many units (U.S., cy2004)?

If price elasticity were that high, all Audi would have to do is lower its prices to LS levels, and volumes would explode...Audi would mint money based on the incremental profits of each car.

Put another way, if Audi lowered its prices to LS levels, does anyone think that it would sell the same number of units as the LS? Come on!

ljflx · February 2005

It's a 50-50 lease/buy relationship. Where I live it's more like 80-20 in favor of lease but I've read it's 50-50 many times as a whole in the US. As for the A8 - there are people that wouldn't take the car if you put a 40% discount on one. You can count me as one. I'm not sure I'd take it if you gave it to me because it would cost me 44% in taxes. I have no desire whatsoever for an A8, trust me on that one. Just watch A8 sales plummet in the next two years. The car has no staying power. Within 3 or 4 years it's not easy to resell an S-class or an A8 because demand is so low for used ones. Even MB diehards don't trust the electronics and long-term ownership of the cars particularly after 3 years. The E and S threads are loaded with comments like that.

lovemyclk · February 2005

Great observation! Lean is not about inspections after the product is assembled and is why inspections on Lexus lines are practically non-events.

Arrogance never improved a production process... even the venerable Porsche has teamed to a degree with Toyota to improve production processes.

footie · February 2005

This isn't just a 'JDP' problem for MB, Merc.

It's folks at the country club and the fund raising soiree's that are going 'my new MB has been in the shop so much it seems like they ought to be making payments on it, not us'.

They aren't reading JDPower either, but they are getting real tired of sending the Service Supervisor's kid to Yale.

denaliinpa · February 2005

ok....where to begin!

just to bring everyone up to date...the discussion and point i am trying to convey is that Lexus still has a long way to go to be a top notch Luxury automaker. the whole point about variations in the offerings by the German brands is this...they offer more to the upscale luxury car buyer. the LS is the best that Lexus has for now so any pontifications about the future are absolutely meaningless at this point in time.

when it comes to the vehicle i drive that is another topic all together. the A8 i just purchased has these options...adaptive cruise control, parktronic, 18" wheels, XM radio, power closing front and rear side doors, heated front and rear seats, heated steering wheel, electric rear sunscreen,manual rear side window sun shades, power one touch trunk close and open, advanced key(key less start). those were all the optional items. here are some of the notable standard items......10 airbags, onstar, nav, power everything, 12 speaker 5 channel surround, sub woofer, center fill speaker, audio pilot noise compensation(neat stuff automatically counters and cancels unwanted noise).......and of course All Wheel Drive!

interior cubic volume.....114.9

A8L interior cubic Volume.....121.5

yeah....i guess they engineered it in!

also the A8 has adjustable suspension but it goes one step further. you are actually able to put the car in lift mode. this raises the car in case you need to go over a speed bump without damaging the car. the car will automatically lower itself at speed and also firm up the suspension or you can set it ahead of time. the MMI navigation screen can be tucked away with the information then reported in the center of the drivers interior dash. the heated seats have 5 different temperature setting. the warranty on corrosion is a 12 year unlimited mileage warranty. the list goes on and on. everything an LS430 has and more. plus...it actually is enjoyable to look at! comfortable or sporty in an instant...even without the push of a button.

and guys...Audi even goes higher...all leather interior, double pane security glass, 12 cylinders, longer wheel base....etc.

these differences separate what Lexus is today to what the Germans are today. tomorrow maybe another story. overall the Germans sell more of their luxury cars worldwide than Lexus many times over. also as the LS430 has just surpassed the sales of the S class in the past 2 years. i will post the past 2 years sales numbers and you will see that it is not selling in the numbers posted above.

on a side not....my wife's going to divorce me if i keep spending all of my time on the computer!

brightness04 · February 2005

I was indeed thinking of the E class of 1996; edmunds timed out the post before I could edit it. The bug eyes fascade were the obvious stylistic departure from the old; what took place in 2000 was positively minor incremental compared to the 1996 change from traditional MB rectangular lenses to the two pairs of ovoids.

syswei · February 2005

"interior cubic volume.....114.9

A8L interior cubic Volume.....121.5

yeah....i guess they engineered it in!"

Audi must have some uniquely contrived definition of interior volume to make themselves look good, because when passenger volume is measured in a STANDARDIZED way by the government EPA, they come up with 100 for the A8, 107 for the LS, 107 for the A8L, 108 for the Phaeton. The Audi website clearly uses inflated numbers, whereas VW's site does not. If I were a class-action lawyer I think I'd have good grounds to squeeze Audi for some dough. Maybe Audi would say, "we didn't specify 'passenger volume', we only said 'interior volume' which of course includes the trunk" or something equally idiotic.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

When it comes to features of an A8 vs LS, you need to consider the different trim levels of the LS. I don't see anything that unique to the A8, with the exception of AWD. But you can't get the A8 in RWD, can you? Which some people actually prefer. One thing you can be sure of is that when Lexus puts AWD on the LS, it'll be an OPTION.

http://www.lexus.com/models/ls/price_options.html

It's also not true that the A8 has "everything an LS430 has and more"...for instance, a backup camera, or a Mark Levinson sound system that has seen rave reviews in true audiophile publications such as The Absolute Sound, or a little refrigerator for the rear passengers. Maybe a little over the top, by YOU are the one who started talking about luxury appointments.

denaliinpa · February 2005

i honestly don't know how interior space is

"contrived". i have an 05 A8 brochure and that's where i found the numbers. the SWB A8

and the LS should be the same by my eye. the A8L has a wheelbase that is 5 inches longer than both. the back seat is enormous. i just don't see how they could be the same. the Phaeton also comes in a long and short version.

when it comes to the "OPTION" of awd ...MB offers that as we speak on the S,E,and C class. Audi tends to do more of it's vehicles in the awd(QUATTRO)fashion. it is kind of like their niche. A8's only come with AWD.

i've got a question. now that Acura has the new RL with 300HP and SHAWD(super handling all wheel drive) would it be accurate to say that the RL is now the equal or even greater than the LS430?

denaliinpa · February 2005

yes the back up camera is not something available on the Audi. the sounds systems are subjective. check out what is available on the 12 cylinder at Audi.com. the LS430 can't even come close.

ljflx · February 2005

I guess that Lexus has a long way to go for YOU in the standards and variation options that define a lux brand based on what you have said. But let's be clear that using your standards Audi just joined the club because when I was shopping in 2001 and the few years after that they had only one wheel base to choose from and one engine. So they offered far too narrow a selection criteria to be considered a luxury car maker. Now they used to offer a SWB and a LWB before that so I guess they bounce in and out of this lux club like a yoyo. On the other hand both the SWB and LWB cars only came with the 310HP V8 so maybe that is not a full qualification anyway. Again I'm just using your definitions because to me this is utter nonsense.

For most of us and the rest of the world as viewed in every publication you will ever read Lexus arrived about 10-12 years ago as a lux nameplate in their infant years. Now for me the Germans have a long way to go on quality and reliability because a true lux car should be something you can bank on. After all true luxury is one that not only gives you luxury amenities but combines that with the feeling that something is built as solidly as possible and you know it will always work. That is the way just about every Lexus owner feels and that is why their scores always beat Germany's best - usually by embarrassingly wide margins. Before the early 1990's that was MB's claim to fame and the feeling their owners had.

denaliinpa · February 2005

luxury SUV's???MB created the segment. it didn't exist before the ML. the RX 300 was created....get this guys off of the Corolla platform!!! the ML is now dated but a new one is to be released in a couple of months. BMW has the X5...the best handling SUV period. only Audi lags behind in this segment. supposedly an SUV is coming shortly. the MB and BMW have tons of options and each has 2-3 separate engine choices. very soon a new G wagon is coming from MB. what does Lexus offer? the LX 470, GX, RX....all re badged and underpowered Toyota's. they are in and of themselves not a bad vehicles....but is this a "Luxury Brand"....rebadged Toyota's????

denaliinpa · February 2005

Audi had the S8.

a high performance A8 with 360hp

and other performance options.

High End Luxury Cars

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