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Comments
the ML "created" the segment that now
exists. whether or not you like the vehicle
is a separate issue. as for the S8. it was a
nice vehicle. late to the party but nice. would't you want the ability to purchase an LS 430 with more HP? who knows...maybe someday you will be able to!
The most expensive Lexus is actually the LX470, which offers seating for 7 in a sea of leather, 10"+ ground clearance, meaning going over not only the speed bump, but also the bumper of the A8 going over the speed bump if not the A8 itself. 6500lb towing capacity, more than the weight of any of the LWB Germans. None of the three German luxury marquees offers anything like it. Audi and MB don't even have any real luxury SUV. Talk about lack of choice for this market segment. Wink, wink ;-)
The A8 historically barely cracked the 2K sales level on average. It was almost an aberration itself. Most lux buyers simply don't give Audi or its A8 much thought. That's just the way it is, even though it is a beautiful looking car. I loved the previous design style too and that's why I looked at it in 2001. The new design probably found some disgruntled BMW buyers with the 7-series design hence the leap to 6K units. I'll bet sales slacken off quickly. For Audi and VW's sake I honestly hope I'm wrong.
Corolla platform led to RAV4, which started the car-based SUV phenom. The first RX was based on the ES/Camry platform. The market has spoken, the RX proved to be the most successful luxury vehicle ever; whereas the ML single-handed destroyed any illusion that MB means luxury. X5 can not keep up with FX. The current ML and G can not begin to compare to RX, GX or LX in terms of luxury; what future brings is irrelevent to this discussion, so some posts claimed earlier. Even if we do allow future into this potporii, the future ML is nothing more than MB attempting to copy Lexus' success offering a car-based SUV with some degree of real luxury.
not considered along with MB and BMW in many people minds. my previous cars were an 02 S55 and an 03 M5. i like you shopped the local Audi dealership but still went the other direction. the new version A8 is a step up and really caught my eye. initially the LWB was just too much car for me. the swb is just about perfect for my current needs. time will tell if it can carry the brand in the US to the level of the other German brands.
i for one second do not count Lexus out. Toyota is sitting on gobs of money. competition is in every consumers best interest.
Even if it were true, that would still beat spending more money on a MB or Audi that is a lesser vehicle. In reality, LX470 is more different from LandCruiser than A8 is from some VW products.
the LX470 is a Land Cruiser. VW does not
have a rebadged version of the A8. it does
however use the 4.2 litre engine in the Phaeton
...along with the W12.
are Acura and Infiniti equal to Lexus?
if yes how and if not...why not?
Less than Audi being rebadged VW. At least the RWD system in LS is not found in any Toyota sold in the US (in Japan, all Lexus models are sold as Toyotas untill this year), whereas the AWD system in A8 is found in numerous lesser Audis and VW's.
Considering that the most expensive convertibles from Audi share platforms with Golf (TT) and Passat (A4), and a reskinned Golf econobox (A3) is coming to the US soon to compete with the lowest Acura (RSX), there is precious little luxury marquee value left in Audi. MB has been coming down the same route with the C and A class crap cars, which now account for more than half of all MB's sold in Europe. Makes you wonder if the Germans are considering retaining only RR, Maybach and Bentley as "high end luxury marques." Perhaps the main-stream German brands, like VW, BMW and MB, will soon compete at Toyota brand level, which is actually moving up-market and leaving Scion to deal with the likes of Smart and Mini.
1. Roughly half of all Acura cars sold are RSX's, which while bigger and better built than A3, A-class and upcoming 1-series, is substantially less luxurious than any volume Lexus. At the other end, RL had been languishing for over half a decade. The new RL however may indeed move the Acura brand perception up a bit.
2. Infiniti flagship Q has been in a identity funk for generations, and its sales are inconsequential compared to the I's and G's. The G35 however is moving the bottom up.
the Phaeton is made of steel...the A8 aluminum. in my book that makes them pretty different. the W12 makes 450HP...to the 4.2's 335HP!
Nope, no one said that price is the sole factor, only that is but one factor in sales, especially with the S-Class and 7-Series. The A8 especially the swb model is much closer to the LS430 in price than either the S or 7-Series. Of course there are many other factors as to why the A8 doesn't sell compared to the LS430 or even S-Class and 7-Series. Audi's rep isn't in the same league as Mercedes, BMW or Lexus at this level of the market in most buyers minds and then there is Audi's bad reliability rep, which was never good in the first place, and I think a lot of people really get scared when they hear that the A8 is made of aluminum, and lastly I've heard this myself countless times at Audi dealer, autoshows and such...."for that money I may as well get the Benz".
M
None of this past your 50/50 example has anything to do with price and sales, which was my point. If there is 50/50 buy/lease rate in the U.S. then that 50 percent that buyers may or may not be deterred by the price difference, thats my point. Especially considering the LS430 doesn't sticker or sell at the S-Class and 7-Series' base price.
M
M
M
Denali- you should heed your own advice and stay away from the PC for a 24-48h period, before the spouse gets other ideas about you
I'm sure Len can correct you on this, but methinks you miss the point. Except for the S500, the A8, 745, LS430, S430 all lease roughly within same range (give-or-take a couple hundred bucks), with either low interest rates (MB/BMW) or higher residuals (LS). Meaning: even a higher stickered A8 leases for less than the lower priced LS430. So who cares about what the cars stickered at ? What are they selling/leasing for ?
Now, a car that should be in this discourse is the Phaeton. Nice car. Beautifully appointed. I sat in one at the SD auto show last month. What a car ! Its a shame its badged as a VW, otherwise it should do extremely better than the A8. But sadly, I hear its on its way out. What a loss to the buying public who never really got to find out how good this car could be....
M
I'd say it depends on the model, and on that basis I'd say Audi/VW does a better job just by a hair. There is distinct difference in style between a VW and an Audi whereas in the case of Toyotas like the Solara (in its styling) and the Avalon (interior) they are no different from similarly priced Lexuses imo. The Solara in particular apes the styling of the supposed to be exclusive Lexus SC430, a no no for a cars of different brands. This new Avalon which has a 2006 GS buyer pausing on the Luxury Performance Sedans board, is another example. Look at its interior. In all fairness the new 2006 Passat with its 280hp VR6 engine would give a many Audi A4 buyers pause too I'd imagine. So to me overall Toyota and VW are more or less in the same boat here.
However, to suggest that BMW and Mercedes are doing the same thing as VW and Toyota simply isn't true, they're MBs and BMWs no matter where they are sold or whatever configuration they are in. Now if the A-Class, 1-Series or A3 don't meet your (mine either) definition of a luxury car so be it, but to suggest that BMW and Mercedes are no longer luxury car brands because of these products is absurd. The 1-Series and A-Class aren't coming here anyway, at least for now.
Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus are all luxury brands to me. How they rank after that is open to debate.
M
Designman I need your opinion on this one too, which I think is a stunner. The new 2006 Passat, the car VW desperately needs here right now. Strangely enough though, the Buick and VW's butts do favor.
M
International panel of journalists reaches its verdict
Feb 16, 2005
source: Audi AG
A panel of judges made up of 48 renowned motoring journalists has reached its verdict: the inaugural title of "World Car of the Year" has been awarded to the Audi A6. In taking this honour, the sporty business saloon left its 35 rivals from all categories trailing in its dust. The award ceremony is to be held on the evening of 16th February as part of the Canadian International Auto Show in Toronto.
The panel members represented all of the major car markets and many of the leading motoring publications from around the world. They rated the 36 candidates based both on objective criteria, such as product characteristics, and on their emotional charisma: the "wow" factor is clearly just as important an evaluation criteria as safety & environment or value for money.
The "World Car of the Year" award is just the latest in a whole string of accolades which the latest Audi A6 has already captured in its debut year in the motoring arena: other titles include the "Auto Trophy" from Auto Zeitung, "Auto1" from Auto Bild, the "Golden Steering Wheel" presented by the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag, "The Best Cars / Luxury Category" as voted by auto motor und sport readers as well as the "Yellow Angel" presented by the German motoring association ADAC, to name but just a few of the prestigious awards won in Germany alone. Such credits have justifiably earned the Audi A6 its mantle as one of the most successful instant hits of all time, with both the press and public alike.
Unlike the Mercedes SLR McLaren which tops out at 205 mph because of friction etc. the CLK DTM AMG is electronically limited to 199 mph as to not step on the SLR's toes. There were only 100 of these made for about 260K which is also much less than the SLR, all have been spoken for and none are certified for sale in the U.S. Most magazines have called this the best Mercedes-Benz currently made, by far.
M
It seems like you're the one who needs a "Reality Check"
"I will refrain from comparing an LS to A8L,7-Series, or S-Class as true auto enthusiasts know the difference easily. Also, Lexus lacks any true motor sport heritage, a very important aspect to a true marquee"
Hmm reeks of snobbery to me. So Car and Driver and the rest of the automotive press are all wrong?? Sorry I've driven ALL of those cars you mentioned and the only one that had a big difference was the 7 Series. Btw, the LS Ultra does have that Fridge and whatever toys your precious A8 has. I'll take my superior quality. residual, and 20K savings and laugh all the way to the bank. So far NO ONE has made an OBJECTIVE argument against Lexus..All I see here is pure arrogance with these "opinions."
"how reliable their Lexus is. The Germans are quite reliable as well. Lexus people would like everyone to believe that the German UberKlasse (Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz) are breaking down all the time or something. That is simply Lexus BS!"
Okay, so you are going to deny 10+ yrs of JD Power Statistics??? So I'm assuming you've done your own econometric regression analysis to come up with that conclusion...JAGUAR is the most reliable Euro marque at this moment...
"I have driven your precious little LS and if anyone thinks that it compares to an A8L, then I have some nice swamp land to sell you."
Wrong again, the LS beat the A8 in the last Car and Driver Comparison and was second in the Road and Track one..IF the A8 is SOOO great, why are the residuals so poor in the US? Explain to me why all of these Marques can't match Toyota's revenue? The true measure of success is the profit..I could care less about your unsubstantiated opinions. Get some facts.
"Try an Audi S4 or Audi RS6 or a BMW M3 or BMW M5 sometime if you want to know what REAL driving is about. We know our marquees were built for driving and handling. We push them like no senior citizen pushs his Lexus to the Senior Citizen Center."
So you're comparing a modified sports car to a bunch of Luxury sedans? BTW the Lexus IS has done relatively well in the performance category..It just has a lousy interior. I'm sure there are twin turbo GS400's in Japan that beg to differ as well..Is your point about driving and handling your excuse for subpar quality? Right and HOW many people push their 7 Series, S Classes on the highway?? The speed limit in the US is 55 MPH...Even in London, it's 70..Are you actually going to claim the majority of BMW, MB, and Audi owners actually race their cars on the track? You've got to be kidding me.
"In Europe a Lexus is viewed as the "Schweinmobile" or the "pig car" because of its design. Europeans who buy Lexus usually cannot afford an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz. It is third choice to Europeans, if a choice at all with those sales numbers. Lexus has strived for a long time to establish itself in Europe "
More generalizations...Last time I checked Germay wasn't Europe..In London where I have a second home, I see a fair amount of LS430's. I have yet to see an A8 there..However there are tons of S Classes around (S320 CDI's...Now why don't they bring that to the US? I'd buy it!) Lexus in Europe has largely been an afterthought..
I think the lack of success of Lexus can be attributed to the strong brand loyalty BMW and MB have in European countries. Contrary to what you say, Lexus cars in Europe are far more expensive than they are in the US...Also, the culture is different than the US in that they desire something else from the car..I find that my European collegues are far more tolerant of defects that I am..It's almost customary to spend their Saturdays with the car.
Merc,
That Passat is a real nice looking car..Now who stole the design, Buick or VW? I'm guessing Buick, which is kind of sad..They used to have some nice designs back in the day..
Another Question..Why is it we don't see the S320 CDI in the US? In my frequent travels to London I see them everywhere..It's definitely a car I'd consider buying. The Diesel must give great mileage and last an eternity. I really wish MB and the rest of the marques would offer "Stripped Down" cars without all the gimmicks..It's pure opinion on my part, but I think some buyers out there feel that all these gadgets distract from the real driving experience.
That's only 15% of the total vehicle cost, much less than the price premium of some German inferior vehicles ;-)
the Phaeton is made of steel...the A8 aluminum. in my book that makes them pretty different. the W12 makes 450HP...to the 4.2's 335HP!
W12 is offered both on the Phaeton and A8. The lightest aluminum A8 still weighs more than LS, so all aluminum construction in that car gives you is much higher body shop bills, less ductile metal for the cumple zone, and more dangerous in case of fire (remember HMS Sheffield??). The W12 power-ed porcinemobiles weigh close to 5000lbs! rendering the extra HP mute and pointless.
More than two thirds of that 80k and 560k were A4's and A3's, neither of which are luxury cars!. That's why Audi has real difficulty maintaining its claim to be a true high end luxury marquee.
That may explain a 10% sales difference (i.e. 20% buyers have price as their decisive factor). The reality is that LS outsells individual German brands by a factor of 2 or more. You can't be seriously arguing that buyers in this market segment only care about price.
Well I wouldn't say either one of the stole the design since both of these are 2006 cars that were on the drawing board at the same time.
You might just see a next generation S-Class diesel here for 2007 or 2008, after U.S. diesel fuel is cleaned up, low sulfur. I doubt if it will the 6-cylinder model you're talking about the S320 CDI, but the V8 next-gen S400CDI definitely has a chance here in 2007.
M
You'll have to show some proof of the A8 being less safe than a LS430, otherwise its just another "opinion".
M
The point is aluminum skin vs. steel skin, not the vehicles themselves.
So the relevence to the US would be??
In Europe, MB selling 100 of those among a sea of A-class is not much different from Ford selling a few 550hp GT's among a sea of Focus sales.
Lexus was not offered in most parts of the world until this year. The bulk of Audi sales worldwide are A4's and A3's, which compete with Toyota models like Corolla (even the Camry equivalent sold in the rest of the world are more luxurious than A4's and A3's). For example, in Audi's largest market outside Europe, China, A4 costs less than a V6 Accord, much less than any Camry variant.
Try an Audi S4 or Audi RS6 or a BMW M3 or BMW M5 sometime if you want to know what REAL driving is about.
I had no idea. I thought we were discussing High End Luxury automobiles. I did not know that means cars that don't even idle smoothly. What's the luxury in that?!
The LS 430 biggest virtues are Ride, Quiet and Dependability. Price is a bonus...Most here can afford to pay $30,000 more to get exactly what they want...but they choose the LS Base Lexus is $55 a really nice one (Custom Lux) is about 64 Sticker and an ultra stickers for about 71..
"a true lux auto maker is determined by their presence on the world stage"...Interesting...Audi and VW would then not be True Lux Manufactures since their Presence in the Biggest market in the world is next to Nil with their top cars.
Passion of owners...There is a difference between Kids that like the cheaper virsions of Audi and VW and even lower end Mercedes and the more mature owners that own a Lux car because they want comfort. The enthusiasts (as I believe you would define them) generally are the Younger folks ...Us older guys are enthusiasts in a different way...Comfort, Ride, Quiet, Sound system, Dependability are the things that turn us on...Not just going around corners on mountain roads...(Which Lexus does quite well)...
The Mature enthusiasts have voted with their pocketbook and bought LS430 in greater numbers then The S class or the 7 or the 8 or any other true Luxury car sold in this country.
Europeans haven't been offered the Service and Availability of the LS430...That is coming SOON, then we will see what they buy. But this is AMERICA so What the europeans do or don't do as far as buying cars is not all that important to us.
You are mixing Apples and Bananas...A4 and 6 BMW 3 and 5 Are not the cars being discussed on this board...I am sure there is a board for those cars....Real driving is very different for different folks...Age and Maturity and finincial status and Family all are factors that go into what a person buys. So is fun the ability to drive fast around corners, and ride and speed and acceleration and all around comfort and safety and size of the machine...
A pollen filter is real important if you have allergies..Leather is importand if you have kids because it cleans up easily.
Inate qualities are subjective...Mine are quite, dependibility, smooth comfortable ride, quality, no hassle service when I need it, safety, Your defination may be going around corners faster then I can...Everyone is different.
Based on your diatribe it sounds like the Lux Car board is not for you...
Two things wrong with this cut-and-paste:
1) This is not the forum for the A6
2) All of the awards are German-based.
Can you find something appropriate for discussion here ?
In November 2004, 32,200 MB cars were sold in Germany, with over half of them, 16,600 units being A-class! In other words, the overwhelming majority of MB's sold (remember C class and taxicab stripper E's account for the overwhelming majority of the remaining less-than-half) are not luxury cars at all.
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7145-1-432134-1-0-0-0- - - - -0-0-9-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html
Audi 2004 worldwide sales consisted of: 180k A3, 310k A4, 189k A6, and a miniscule 22k A8. In other words, nearly three out of four Audis sold worldwide are not luxury cars at all. http://www.audiworld.com/news/05/011705b/content.shtml
In contrast, Lexus doesn't even offer any volume product much smaller than E-class and A6. Even the ES330 comes fully loaded, unlike the E-class stripper taxicabs sold in Europe.
Referring to an earlier post by "reality2" (is that alternate-reality? ;-), "schweinmobiles" is just their term for our "High End Luxury cars." What we call "fat cats" they call pigs. The German lower end models have avoided the name only because there's truely nothing luxurious or special about the majority of them. Those plebian cars account for the overwhelming majority of sales for MB and Audi.