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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    Is it really a good idea to park in front of a fire hydrant? There's a reason why you get a ticket if you park in front of one.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    No. But the one in front of Peter Luger's is the exception to the rule. You'd also have to see the neighborhood this restaurant is in to appreciate why you want your car parked so close to the front door. The cars of the diners are worth more than all the land within a mile radius of the restaurant.
  • georget3georget3 Member Posts: 53
    Leonard: You're so pleased with the LS430 ride and quietness that you promote it whenever you have a chance. I wonder if you or anybody has actual test data of dba level for 2001 LS430, BMW740, MB S500/430 & others. (at engine idle, 30MPH, 60MPH & 90MPH perhaps.) When I tested driving LS430, I actually was expecting a much quieter ride than I got. Very noticeable noise came from both the engine as well as the fan outlets. I may be wrong, but I did not feel LS430 was noticeably quieter than S500 with normal suspension. I think dba readings comparison by independent authorities would be more scientific evidence of your claim.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...you pitch the LS430 a bit too hard, it sounds nearly defensive. I did say it is a *perfect* car, with a bland design. Since I am not the only one saying that, but all journalists also do, we can take it for a fact. You like it, good for you.

    As to Lexuses getting preferential treatment over Rolls in valets, please, that's a bit too much. Put it down to parking spot dynamics, not to general car superiority or something.

    You're happy with your car, great. But I'll never "graduate" to a car that stimulates my senses about as much as watching paint dry on a closet. I am more than happy with what I have, only I am not on a mission to make you accept it is some superior choice.
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    Lexus owners 'think' rather than feel and they think they have the best car.
    So what.
    Mercedes-Benz has the #1 tradition. Do they let you forget it?
    Audi has the most discretion. How do you think they feel while they are not worrying about what you think?
    BMW has the best driving cars. The rest of us might as well be driving Hyundais.
    Jaguar has the most heritage. It means a lot to Jaguar owners.
    Something doesn't become a fact instead of an opinion because a car journalist says it.
  • blehrlichblehrlich Member Posts: 92
    I agree with you completely. Even though I own an MB S500,I don't think there is any more prestige in owning this car than there is owning a LS430. I love my car, but the Lexus is awesome as well. My decision was more of a "feel" issue...I felt the most comfort/fun for ME was in the MB. I also just love the way it looks (and although I love the Lexus interior, I really do not like the exterior). I simply got tire of past experiences with BMW and Audi vehicles which had a myriad of unsolvable electrical issues. I guess I got lucky with a MB which (knock, knock) has been trouble-free. I've never owned a Jag because at my size (6'3", 230 lbs.), I can't seem to fit comfortably...but the smell of the leather in a Jag cannot be duplicated.
    Sorry for the ranting.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    Interesting how, in many earlier posts, when many journalists were pointed out as picking the Lexus over the MB, this was decried by the MB fans as nothing more than opinion. Our now departed arcoates, for one, roundly chastised us all for listening to the journalists. But when the journalists agree on the ONE styling "weakness" in the Lexus, it is quickly pointed to as "fact".
    Pablo, I submit it is the Benz fans who become defensive. Read the S-Class board (which I'm sure you do) and the myriad reports of problems and noises and dealer service nightmares, etc. When that is pointed out, they usually become defensive of their choice. They shouldn't be and neither should we Lexus owners. We're probably beating this into the ground, but we all made our choices for our personal reasons and tend to share them across brands. I'm happy for blehrlich, for instance, that he got a trouble-free S Class. My personal point is, that he is lucky. Many more did not (read the posts - these are S Class owners saying these things). In the case of the Lexus, I get virtually all the features of the MB and none of the problems. My interior is far nicer and my exterior isn't a problem for me. The handling isn't far behind the Benz, but isn't that important. And I, for one, am not on a mission to force your acceptance of a Lexus. You have diff. priorities and I honor that. ljflx is obviously passionate about his choice - a car which you state has no passion. I am also passionate about my choice. Every time I drive it, I thoroughly enjoy it. Maybe for different reasons than you, but it inspires my passion. I note your honest admission that the Lexus is a fine automobile, except for the exterior styling which also inhibits the BMW. I am sure the Bimmer fans would disagree. Passion, as beauty, is where each of us finds it. And I hope I don't sound "defensive" when I say I didn't find it necessary to spend an extra $20k for it. Because I would have.
  • jarmstrong2jarmstrong2 Member Posts: 38
    Gentlemen I have owned 3 Lexus, MC 420SEL and now a Jag VDP. When I was younger I needed a realible car that I did not have to fix all the time. Lexus sent me a card in the mail and it said that if I would drive a Lexus for the weekend they would service my Lincoln TC. What a deal! But what a sale. I put 3 tanks of gas in a weekend. It was a automatic sale. But couldn't afford a new one so purchased used. Went thru one more then purchased a 420 SEL. I loved the car because of the tradition but wanted a more confortable ride. Bought another Lexus LS400. Now I will cut all the hot air. After a while my brother really wanted the Lexus, so my wife and I test drove a Jag. The traditonal, confortable ride, handling, and power was unbelievable. I read all the reviews on realiability, which is now not a problem. Now I own a 99 JAG VDP. I got it a great price and absolutly love it. I realy love the new MB S500 but don't want to buy a condo just a car. I am so glad I bought a Jag. If you have never owned or driven a Jag , you really don't know what you are missing. ( A high school by pulled beside me in his camaro, reving his engine and eyeballing my wife. As I blew past him with a flash, my wife asked me if I would ever grow up.
    NEVER)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You must have had the windows open. This car is incredibly quiet. Lexus cars have always been known for that and all the mags say so. I never said the S-500 wasn't quiet. As for me being defensive well I actually leased a second LS430 when my job requirements recently changed. If I was unsure of myself would I have ever done that? I wanted a MB E-320 or 430 but those cars had ridiculous lease payments at 20k miles per year. The LS 430 is a far better car than either and the payments were just slightly more at that mileage level. Look I can easily afford an S-600 if I so desired but I'm sure glad I have LS430's and I know that I bought the better car for MY needs and driving style. Your quite welcome to think I'm defensive though if it so pleases you. I read the posts on this board quite differently than you and see the MB buyers as defensive. I think the BMW buyers seem more sure of themselves.

    As to the post about the Rolls - give me a break. Of course it was attributable to parking dynamics. The point wasn't that a Lexus is more prestigious than a Rolls or any other luxury car -only that it is viewed as a prestigious car by the outside world.
  • blehrlichblehrlich Member Posts: 92
    I just like the MB better. The LS is much quieter than the S500, but that really did not make a difference to ME. I even have the 18" AMG wheels on my MB which probably creates more road noise.
    I would be thrilled if my wife chose a LS430 when her Landcruiser lease is up (soon) so that I could drive both.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...I hardly ever see them truly rank upper luxury vehicles. They point out the measurable and relative fact, and then readily admit that all cars have huge advantages. And when they rank cars, typically you'll find a test for every result (except seing Jags finish first, but I am sure I'd only have to find myself a Brit mag). The statistical relevance of rankings in tets is thus unconclusive. What *is* mentioned every time journalists write about the LS430 is bland styling. Each and every time. *That* has statistical relevance. What it does not have is any impact on the other, and multiple, car's qualities. It's not like the old S-class or the 7-series does anything for my eyes, either. They all simply follow the "stately presence" block appearance. That's all.

    I don't believe at all in the premise of any car being better than another. It's a better choice for something/somebody, period. I do dislike silly pontification and overly tedious "this is how wonderful my car is" tales.

    And I certainly won't be trying to convince myself my Jag ranks up there with a Ferrari or Rolls in ultimate uniqueness, luxurious excess or prestige. I'll leave that to one delusionary LS owner, it seems. Who in a further display of balanced objectivity told me I had to "graduate to a Lexus".

    These are *all* fantastic cars. I know several S-class owners, and am not aware of any abysmal reliability record. But I also won't dispute the fact that Lexuses have achieved legendary dependability, and that is a powerful asset.

    In each and every one of my messages, I have pointed out I am highly aware the Lexus is a phenomenal car, first and foremost, and simply pointed out the style critique that is an entirely personal and ultimately meaningless impression.
  • blehrlichblehrlich Member Posts: 92
    Very well said.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The post about "graduating" was made on post 694 by the poster him or herself. My post back had absolutely nothing to do with you. I suggest you go back and read the posts to clarify things for yourself. If you want to think I'm delusionary - so be it. Never did I bring any comparative in these cars to a Rolls and I never even mentioned a Ferrari in any post I've ever made. Personally I think much of what you post is intelligent and well thought out. So please don't drag it down with such barbs.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Thanks for the clarification, and upon checking it, I fully admit I have been over-sensitive and want to offer an apology for misreading and misrepresenting what you wrote.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Accepted. Let's be friends.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    Your comment that "What is mentioned every time journalists write about the LS430 is bland styling. Each and every time. That has statistical relevance" is right on the money -- of course, since styling, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder it is a statistic totally devoid of relevance to anyone who either likes the styling or simply doesn't care.

    You go on to say that "What it does not have is any impact on the other, and multiple, car's qualities." True again -- qualities such as class-leading build quality and reliability, which most definitely ARE quantifiable.

    Fact is, Mercedes has always been very conservative until recently, with the exception of the SL series, and I see nothing wrong with that. BMW has always had an Italian flair to my eye, which is something I really love about them, and still do. And while I truly wish Lexus would dsign a more exciting LS430, it is a car I would be unlikely to buy in the first place -- I'd go for the GS400 (performance) or SC430 (style) instead -- neither of which can be construed as bland.
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    I am making a very rare appearance, but only to clarify something that flint350 said recently. His lines were:

    "Our now departed arcoates, for one, roundly chastised us all for listening to the journalists".

    Let me make it very clear that never did I chastise anyone for listening to journalists. I rely heavily upon them to educate me on new cars, because I can't possibly drive all of the myself. More than once I quoted a car magazine, so it would be more accurate to say that I chastised someone for NOT listening to them. And the fact is, that all of the ones I read do not favour the LS over anything else in this class. But I'm not back here to argue again. In the future, please don't put words into my mouth. Thanks~ A.R.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...I did mention all along, too, that since design appeals to personal taste, it certainly is up to the individual. It's like with suits - most buyers of expensive suits will buy fabrics that do *not* stand out, and the qualities are very low key. It's all personal style.

    As to "quality" being quantifiable, or even reliability, that is up to debate. You know what they say about lies, damn lies and statistics. They are infomrational, but they are not the ultimate tool. And I have yet to truly hear the Mercedes S-class has reliability problems. Mercedes' reputation for durability doesn't come from nowhere. My mother still drives her '81 240D, and having taken care of it it looks and works pristinely with well over 150k miles on it. It's *never* broken down. Lexus has a while to go until it establishes such a long-lived track record. Yes, this is surrounded, too, by perception and thus a gray area.

    People also simply decide on trade-offs they are going to make. Jaguar sure doesn't have the long lived reputation for reliability, but to me at this point they are more than reliable enough. I can get lucky or have bad luck with *any* car brand. I *do* know a Lexus GS400 owner that has had persistent gremlins in his car. There is always one out there.

    Nothing is quite as "factual" and "established" as we often would like to think.

    Buying a car simply is not a scientific process. Particularly not when you spend this much money - it is an irrational process to start with. We all decide on one of these cars because we buy into some more intangible, intuition and passion based value proposition.

    They are all amazing displays of craftmanship and engineering.
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    Your post seems to indicate that car design is subjective. Your very well thought out post about Audi and Jaguar styling makes clear that
    you understand that car design is a matter of objective elements. Your objective criteria get replaced with "It's all personal style" when you talk about Lexus.

    I think you should reconsider the car magazine Lexus double-speak about Lexus styling. Lexus is the most unoriginal design in the world. If it is not original, it came from somewhere else.

    Can it be criticized for not being commited to design legacy when the legacy it would be committed to is its own? What legacy is that?
    The 1990 Lexus was derived from Mercedes. The new one?

    The car is so perfect it is boring. The opposite of perfect is flawed. Is perfection boring? Is flawed exciting?

    I know car magazines mean "something" but "I'm bored with perfection." is very cynical.

    I know it's 11 years old but do you think Lexus has to establish itself for reliablity and durability?

    Car decisions might be personal, subjective, and irrational, but when you look at Lexus what you see is a "blank slate". You have yet to hear of recurring reliablity problems in the S Class?
    Mercedes has an established reputation for durability but Lexus doesn't have a track record?
    Is reputation qualitative and track record quantifiable? I enjoy your posts but you seem to keep changing the terms of your argument when it comes to Lexus.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...and the choice is equally subjective when it comes to all other brands, not just Lexus.

    Lexus is just as valid a choice and contender for automobile excellence as anyone else. I do not dispute that.

    And that is as far as the objectivity goes.

    Everything that follows is far more murky. The concept of style is a matter of personal preference. Sure car designers set themselves goals, and I mentioned a few messages back those objectives seem to be becoming more and more similar. I did not really single out Lexus. I mentioned Audi and BMW do little for *my* eye, too. And that the next generation Jag seems to look bland.

    And my personal perception is that, yes, Mercedes has taken risks in their latest designs, and given where the car industry stands, I have to applaud that. Am I a huge fan of the S-class and thus biased? Why would I have bought a Jaguar XJR then? I jyst call it as I see it, personally, and try to stay objective.

    I am *not* a Lexus basher at all. I have said about 20 times I think it a phenomenal car, but the fact I don't *like* the lines of the design is taken as an attack against the brand, when in fact I state all along it is utterly irrelevant.

    And yes, I do not think relaibility *problems* with the S-class are an established fact. Mind you, personally I think the reliability reputation of German cars is not quite justified anymore - they certainly do not stand head and shoulders aboive everybody else anymore. And my personal BMW experience was not devoid of gremlins. Great car, but it did act up a few times. More than the Citroen 2CV I owned as a student. But that is all such circumstancial evidence...

    What *is* important is service. I hear Lexus offers great service, and that is key to the luxury segment. I do think Mercedes and BMW have bogged their service departments' excellence down with too many models. My wife has a Mercedes (and she is totally happy), but I know the Jaguar service department is a more pleasant experience. Might easily change when they come out with the X type.

    And most definitely Lexus does not have one thing - tradition. It might be important to some, immaterial to others. But hey, all companies got started somewhere, and personally I have no doubt that 20 years down the line Lexus will have a legendary tradition of excellence.

    Oh, and I should mention I think the SC430 styling is gutsy, so kudos to Lexus for that. Looks somewhat odd now, which might very well mean it'll turn into a classic.
  • ejerodejerod Member Posts: 86
    Guys, Guys, Guys... Like I said, I drive the MB S500, but I'll be honest, it took me a full 6 months to make up my mind between it , the LS430, and the BMW740il. Every single one of these cars are phenomenally engineered. Intead of us letting testosterone get the best of us we should all be counting our blessings that we can afford to drive any of these fine automobiles. Yes I chose the Benz for it's heritage, engineering and styling, but it won my money be one or two votes. Let's breathe, take a minute and realize that to even drive these cars one has to be in the top 1-3% of income earners in the US. That in and of itself is the true blessing. We could all be in Hyundais or worse yet homeless.I'm sure that most of us live in fine homes that these car compliment when we enter our driveways. I didn't buy the Lexus, but if they had a more agressive looking body style I would have.. Happy motoring.
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    Choice is subjective.
    Lexus is a valid choice (contender, whatever).
    That is where the objectivity ends.
    It didn't even start. I don't see how it can end.

    -Lexus copied the Mercedes (twice).
    -Whether the S Class has recurring problems or not is not a matter of opinion.
    -Lexus has established a reputation for reliability and durability.
    -Styling is not subjective. Whether you like it or not is subjective.

    Mercedes never has a problem and Lexus has to prove itself? It sounds like a double standard to me.

    BTW, the Pontiac Aztec is gutsy, odd, risk- taking, and not bland. I hope the SC430 has something else going for it.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I wholeheartedly agree with you. But the competitive fires in all of us is what has made us all successful (I assume) enough to afford these cars in the first place. Thus we are people who are prone to debate their merits. As long as we keep it clean and don't hit below the belt and insult each other, it is healthy. Sometimes it gets a little too emotional but if we are pros we can reign it in - witness Pablo and I in earlier posts today. And maybe, though this is a long-shot, the manufacturers are following some of the debate and draw upon the content to improve their cars. Good luck to you with your S-500. You couldn't have gone wrong or been unhappy with either of the other cars you were evaluating so though it took you 6 months you were always in a no lose situation. Now I wish you can help us out with this 2 feet plus of snow they are expecting up here in the NY/NJ area starting Sunday. I finally got my cars clean and can see my lawn and now more snow.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    I thought I recalled a comment by you about the car mags. That's what prompted my remark above. In going back, this is what I found in your earlier post, so I stand by what I said:
    "You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's."
    Not trying to re-ignite an argument, I was just making a point in a healthy debate.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I don't see a double standard, since I have mixed in critical coments about all brands. You are being too defensive. And I didn't say a word about Lexus copying Mercedes, so do not mix in comments from someone else.
    And I can't recall saying the Aztec and the SC430 share anything. You are making your own argument up.
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    I'm starting to see your logic. You offer both praise and criticism of all brands therefore you do not have a double standard. You didn't say a word about Lexus copying Mercedes. You did not offer comment about Lexus copying Mercedes but you did comment on it when I brought it up. You did not say that the Aztec and the SC430 share anything. I said they do so that is correct. I am making my own arguments up. Yes. This is the best I can do so I hope you will not be offended :)
  • arcoatesarcoates Member Posts: 221
    I knew that was the one you were referring to. And if you look at it carefully, I was not critisizing anyone for listening to auto journalists, I was just saying that in my opinion, most of the american car magazines have lost their credibility. Can anyone here say that Motor Trend's Car of the Year or Car and Drivers 10Best is really groundbreaking anymore? They pick what the public wants to here, so in that particular issue, they will sell more copies. But that's another conversation.

    But, I rely heavily upon such publications as Edmunds.com, CAR, Automobile, and Road and Track for my info. And what I read, Lexus has definetly stepped up, but is not the best out there.~ A.R.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I didn't make a single comment on Lexus copying from Mercedes, either. I am sure all brands look at what the other does, and look at ways of integrating good ideas without making it too obvious.
    And as you can imagine, even though I am not a big fan of the Aztek design, I do think it a great thing that car manufacturers go for more distinct designs.
    And no one doubts the SC430 is a phenomenal car. Very desirable convertible, if I was in the market for a top convertible right now, the Lex would be up there among the 2-3 finalists.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    arcoates: AutoWorld Weekly did a comparison test in their Feb27 issue between the BMW 740iL, Mercedes S430, Jaguar XJ8L and the LS430 in which the BMW came out on top, followed only a half point behind by the Lexus, which they described as having "best in class" fit and finish and ergonomics and a strong engine (it was the quickest of the four). The Mercedes came in third (criticized for its weak engine, transmission, interior ergonomics and interior materials), and the Jaguar a distant fourth (although they loved the style and cache of both the brand and the car).

    pablo: You've never impressed me as being unreasonable, so I don't know what you've said to provoke some of the people here; that said, your comment that "Mercedes' reputation for durability doesn't come from nowhere...Lexus has a while to go until it establishes such a long-lived track record" is partly true -- Mercedes had a reputation for years as the most durable car on the planet, until Lexus raised the bar with their very first LS400. It's been over ten years now, which I think is more than adequate time to establish the validity of people's perceptions about Lexus quality.
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    You never said that Lexus copied from Mercedes.
    Ok. This is the right answer.

    This is what you meant in 728. where you also said "don't mix in comments from someone else".

    I did not mix in comments from someone else when I talked about your comments.

    'And, visually, I see no similarit- between the Lex430 and the MercS class.' 700

    These are your comments.

    Did I say you said that Mercedes copied Lexus?

    Here's what I meant when I said"You did not offer comment about Lexus copying Mercedes but you did comment on it when I brought it up. " 729 :

    You did not bring up [the subject] of Lexus copying Mercedes but you did comment [on the subject] when I brought it up (see above) and you implied that it was not the case.

    Mercedes was daring. Lexus was bland.
    If Lexus copied Mercedes, both would have to be daring or bland, since we were talking about the
    styling- the objective facts of the styling (the ones that you did not see), daring styling, bland styling- not the same thing.

    When I bring it up, you change your tune.
    'I'm sure they do, so what.'

    Some human kindness might be in order. My post was reconciliatory. My post was friendly. Maybe you can spend 10 seconds thinking about what
    other people might reasonalby mean instead of insisting on what YOU REALLY mean all the time and calling people "defensive" when they get frustrated.

    I apologize to the board for boring you to death :(
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...there's no test, and truly no animosity on my side. You seem under the impression I dilsike or attack Lexus unfairly, when in fact I know it is a brand I have a lot of respect for. Mr denniswade has a very valid point when he says Lexus has established a high bar for reliability. I have not disputed that anywhere. That said, I also know Mercedes does not all of a sudden have a reputation for quirky and oft-breaking cars - that is an overzealous statement.

    And I am not sure where you go with the Lexus copying Mercedes argument. I seem to sense you mean that since I mentioned the new Mercedes S class is daring, to *you* Lexus copied from Mercedes and thus must be considered a refreshing design, too. On this matter, all personal opinions are qually valid. But to me the new Lex LS430 looks a lot like the old LS400, and not at all like a new Merc S-class. That is just my opinion, and not something I want to try to establish as universal law.
  • ejerodejerod Member Posts: 86
    Yeah, you're right about competitive fires. I can hardly go to a function without someone asking " and what is it that you do ? " That's one thing I do enjoy about the heritage of Mercedes, as they said in the Edmunds Review "big Mercedes Benz Sedans scream success!" I know I know, I own a Lexus product too, the 99 GS 300 my wife drives and I love that car too!!! But I drove by the MB dealership the other day and lo and behold a CLK55 on the showroom floor!!! Now to talk to wife into test driving that baby to see maybe if she's tired of the GS. If not, then the Lexus SC430 is due out this month, that should be interesting to. The best thing about being blessed with the talent and education to be successful is the toys one can buy.. as a friend of mine always responds.. "Life is good!!!!"
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ... my portfolio, for one, has been hammered to the point where I have put my plans to buy a (used) Rolls Corniche on hold for now. This stuff is scary. Things continue this way, and I will have to work again for a salary, as opposed to working for fun... :-) Now that is a novel concept... :-) <- Kinda bitter smile there, though...

    And a close friend of mind works in a Jag dealership (you know you've bought to many cars and paid too much for them when your sales guy becomes one of your close friends...!), and he tells me things *suck* in the luxury car sales sector. Our CEO wanted to buy some spceial 7-series Beemer, and was initially told he'd have to wait a year, now he gets calls with a discounted offer every week... :-)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    My portfolio was hammered to and in fact I don't know anyone's who hasn't been. Hang in there though - some companies are really undervalued including Daimler. Greenspan kept rates too high too long but that's a subject for another board. When I make purchase decisions I do it on spendable money (take home pay) and not based on the portfolio which is subject to such volatility.
  • escargoescargo Member Posts: 8
    It's great to be able to argue over such esoteric things as which luxury sedan is best. I agree that they are all outstanding cars, but I had to go with the Mercedes S 430. Although none of them are perfect and my Mercedes has some things I would like changed, its a great car in the classic tradition of Mercedes.

    Although everyone seems to think the BMW is the ultimate performance machine, I just did not like its understated exterior appearance and its "feel every bump in the road" suspension. I'm more of a luxury and style guy than sheer performance freek.

    As for the Lexus, I agree that they have helped "raise the bar" in luxury car performance, but something about seeing "Toyota" stamped all over component parts under the hood just turned me off. In addition, I am a tall guy and did not seem to have the same head and leg room in the Lexus.

    As for the Audi and the Jag, they were not even serious considerations because of reputations for mechanical problems. I admit these reputations may be no longer warranted, but everyone has heard the stories about Jags being in the shop all the time and I have friends who have owned Audis in the past who had frequent problems.

    Maybe it's just my low class upbringing, but I can't seem to recall seeing a Saudi prince or a European Monarch riding in a Lexus, but I have seen quite a few in a Mercedes. Need I say more?
  • wbwynnwbwynn Member Posts: 246
    The LS430 has more front headroom, legroom, and overall height than your S430. Check out the specs on Carpoint yourself.
  • escargoescargo Member Posts: 8
    Thanks for the tip, wbwynn. When I was shopping, I didn't get a chance to see the new LS 430, just the LS 400. If the LS 430 truly has more leg and headroom than the LS 400 I'll have to take another look at it next time, although I'm not sure that alone would change my mind. As for the specs, I'm not sure how they come up with those measurements. I've sometimes discovered that I fit better into a car that supposedly has the same or less room than one which I fit less comfortably into. In particular, Japanese manufacturers seem more inclined to write off tall guys like me.
  • shehzadshehzad Member Posts: 52
    Just about the Saudi Princes-first of all, there's so many princes that it's really not and exaggeration to say they're a dime a dozen. I live very close the Prince Bandar, the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S., who is also a prince, and I've seen him driving an LS400--in addition to some other phenomenal cars that I'll never ever be able to afford. Moreover, if you ever go to Saudi Arabia yourself, lexus's are just as popular over there as Mercedes. I'm not such a bigwig that I know if any of the lexuses I've seen in saudi are driven by princes, but if we accept my premise that there are a lot of saudi princes, and lexuses are like camrys over there, I think it's a fair assumption that some princes drive them. I'm not really much of a lexus guy myself, but just wanted to set the record straight.
  • ejerodejerod Member Posts: 86
    Well I'm blessed, I haven't lost a dime in the markets. Haven't been in the markets for nearly 3 years. ( Thank God). I'm happy as a pig in slop right about now. Everyone I know is crying the blues about the market and looking for Greenspan and Bush to do something. I on the other hand am looking forward to shopping for bargains that other's can't afford because of their losses. I wouldn't want to be a broker or CFP right now...lol
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    The Emperor of Japan is certainly not a European but he is an emperor and he is driven in a Toyota Crown...lol
  • xjs5xjs5 Member Posts: 33
    which brings up an interesting point- the A8, 7 Series, and S Class (XJ8?) are flagships and the LS430 is not.
  • escargoescargo Member Posts: 8
    I understand that the 7 series Beamer will be redesigned for 2002. Does anybody know what the new model is going to look like? I guess if you're not already on the order waiting list it may be hard to get one for a while after they come out.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What do you mean? Are you saying the flagship car or vehicle is the LX470 truck? Or is the flagship the Japanese version of the LS430 which I assume is the Toyota Crown. Regardless I believe Toyota markets the LS430 in America at least, as its flagship car but I could be wrong.

    Ejerod - I'm still a lot better off in the market than out of it over a three year period but I'd love to have the past year back.

    escargo - LS 430 is more roomy for front passengers but the S-Class should be more roomy in back given the extra 7 inches of car length. LS430, believe it or not, has more trunk room if that would have mattered to you.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...measurements do not tell the entire story. Perceived interior rrom has a lot to do with the way the ergonomics simply fit your very own body. It depends to some degree on the seat adjustment, but then again, some is just layout. Personally, it seems to me the Merc feels the roomiest of the lot, but the XJ takes the cake when it comes to sheer library like coziness. All that is missing is a little fireplace, really. Maybe it's an option in the Vandenplas... :-)
    A lot of it also has to do with the color choice of the interior. Perception often is not entirely captured in numbers.
  • escargoescargo Member Posts: 8
    When I have the seat in my S class all the way back it's almost too far away from the controls for my wide butt, long legs and long arms to reach. I can still sit in the backseat on the driver's side and stretch out with the driver's seat all the way back. That's what I call roominess. I'm willing to give up the trunk space for passenger room. But you guys are making me think twice about the LS 430 next time.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    ...measurements do not tell the entire story. Perceived interior rrom has a lot to do with the way the ergonomics simply fit your very own body. It depends to some degree on the seat adjustment, but then again, some is just layout. Personally, it seems to me the Merc feels the roomiest of the lot, but the XJ takes the cake when it comes to sheer library like coziness. All that is missing is a little fireplace, really. Maybe it's an option in the Vandenplas... :-)
    A lot of it also has to do with the color choice of the interior. Perception often is not entirely captured in numbers.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Any particular reason you chose the S-430 over S-500? I was evaluating both vs. LS430 and had decided if I went MB I was going with the S-500. But I was leasing and just decided that a $140 per month payment differential per month in S-500 over S-430 was not large enough to keep me away from S-500. Though they lease reasonably close in price, an outright purchase is of course quite different. Just curious about your approach.
  • denniswadedenniswade Member Posts: 362
    Re your comment that "something about seeing "Toyota" stamped all over component parts under the hood just turned me off." And why is that, exactly? Anything objective, or just a vague feeling that the Japanese are innately inferior to the Germans? Hell, in the rest of the world, Mercedes are taxis, and a goodly number of them are clattery old diesels. Hardly the stuff of fantasy.

    As to your comment that "Maybe it's just my low class upbringing, but I can't seem to recall seeing a Saudi prince or a European Monarch riding in a Lexus, but I have seen quite a few in a Mercedes. Need I say more?"

    No, you don't -- you said it all yourself.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    The big question that seemingly validaes prestige... they drive:

    The Aston Martin on Sat
    The Ferrari Barchetta on Sun
    The Bentley Arnage on Mon
    The Rolls Silver Spur on Tue
    etc etc

    Just two or three measly luxury cars won't do. :-)
  • smoothrunningsmoothrunning Member Posts: 8
    and one british journalist called it the quietest vehicle in the world

    Crown is the upmarket version of Toyota in Japan I believe

    I would think that Lexus will be getting a V12 in the coming years..
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