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2005 Maserati Quattroporte
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/maserati/quattroporte/100505998/p- hotogallery.html?pg_type=Sedan&imgsrc=%2Fpictures%2FVEHICLE%2F200- - 5%2FMaserati%2F100505998%2F20023048-T.jpg
Would this be a candidate for a true luxury sedan? Why or why not?
I think you brought up the achilles heel of this discussion. Why do we need a luxury car? Can't people just buy a Camry, Accord, etc. and just drive around with that? Is a V8/V12 etc. really necessary? Aren't people just victims of 'peer pressure', slick marketing, and tricky sales people?
This is not to offend anyone, rather to take this with some humor...
I think there are a few types of buyers out there:
1) The real car nuts..They love everything related to their Marque.. Their cars strike an emotional chord in them. They love the look and feel of their car as well as the heritage of the brand.
2) Those who base their purchases on what JDP, CR, and other objective surveys say.."Feel" and looks are not as important to these buyers. You could say they simply want a nice car that will last. I'd probably fit into this group.
3) The "Me Too's" who simply want the snob appeal that comes with owning their cars. It's probably likely that they know nothing about the marque or car at all. I think this is what happened to the 3 Series. (which is sad because it's one of best cars out there) I can't tell you how many people I've seen do just that.
What do you all think?
SV
Again, let's stick to the cars. Thanks.
only the Audi has taken it to the advanced technical level of a completely all aluminum vehicle. whether you like Audi or not what they accomplished is very advanced.
Or simply part of a technical trial and error process like BMW's i-Drive. In any case, Aluminum-intensive construction (not all-aluminum, btw) only accounts for 3% of total Audis sold in 2004. That hardly defines the marquee as you stated.
The frame of the LS is very solid..Mine is an 01 and is just as solid as it was when I bought it..Many here with LS 400s will say the same about their cars that are as much as 10 or 12 years old.
All the more reason to stay away from aluminum spaceframe: product non-uniformity. Do I really want my family exposed to extra risk because some [non-permissible content removed] had a bad day and did not weld a particular point up to spec? It's not like they can crash test every individual car before selling ;-)
For the same engine and same vehicle weight, AWD should be slightly quicker, especially for cars that have enough power to spin rear wheels.
as for which automobile is safer i am sure they are both equally safe in accidents regardless of the steel vs aluminum nonsense that has been filling this thread.
How can you be sure?? Based on what?? There are all sorts of accidents, most of which do not involve composite barriers and most are not at 40mph. They may both score similarly in crash tests; there is much more to safety than crash tests. One thing we do know for sure is that, in a fender bender, aluminum bodies are much much more expensive to repair. Another set of facts that we do know for sure is that: aluminum has lower melting and flaming points, so in case of severe accidents with fire . . .; no simiulated standard crash tests ever involve fire. Tensile strength difference is another fact we do know for sure.
Like that can't happen with any car. Of course Lexus would N E V E R make a mistake, since they are perfect, right? If you want to give me the robot excuse, there is still a possibility for errors.
You can never say never, not even Lexus is perfect, but they are closer to perfect then the Germans,it is therefore much LESS likely that Lexus would make a mistake then the German Manfactures would.
And besides, I have not ever heard that an A8 fell apart in an accident due to a production error, have you? That would be a good case for a law suit...
I think it should be included in this 'club'
Simply a beautiful, greatly engineered car. With the engine out of the Ferrari Modena, F1 gearbox, the rear entertainment system seems pretty cool too!
I agree with rl81. It's unlikely Audi would produce a car with a glaring defect that would result in fatalities. German cars are known for their solid build. There is no doubt that they are safe in accidents. That's not to say a LS isn't just as safe. I took a 30 MPH impact on the left front quarter panel..The car barely moved and all I heard was a faint "Thump" It did have over $6500 in damages though..(Alot of this was Lexus labor in repairing the mechanical damage)
I think just the sheer size and weight of these cars means that we'd all fare well in an accident regardless of the make we're driving..Being High End Lux marques, all of these cars are going to have the latest and greatest safety features.
Which brings up an interesting point..Has anyone been in accident with their high end car? How well did it hold up?
SV
I've watched the arguing over which car is better, and it's clear the factions will never converge.
But I've always wondered: Why do none of the European luxury cars go to a real audiophile company to design a stereo like the Mark Levinson in the LS?
In the view of this audiophile, only the ML system for the LS430 (other ML/Lexus combos are clearly worse) counts as audiophile of any stock system in any car I've sat in or heard of.
To imagine that Bose or Alpine would care about sound like ML is as unimaginable as thinking that
Bose could design a home CD player that would match a Mark Levinson.
Perhaps some of this is taste. Car guys tend to like boomy, in-your-face sound. But I would think that SOME of the luxury buyers that the S class or equivalent caters to would appreciate the option of a genuinely high end system that has clean highs, real imaging, and accurate, unexaggerated bass. Even the ML system seems to have a mild suckout that requires a midrange boost.
There are so many fine, European stereo companies at the high end that it should be easy to get one to design an appropriate system. Perhaps Linn or Naim could be approached?
People with Goldmund turntables, Naim CD players, and JM Labs Utopias or Quad electrostatics, should have something better to listen to than stereo designed by mass market players?
Maybe I'm getting old, but it's really hard for me to distinguish between the stock Pioneer and ML...In my '02 LS the ML wasn't anything special. The '05 ML seems to be better. What music is appropriate to showcase the quality of a stereo? Someone handed me a soundtrack to Once Upon a Time in America and it sounded fantastic on the ML.
Any Suggestions?
SV
Did anyone SAY that the A8 fell apart..ANYONE on this board?
I will say again...The lexus LS is not perfect but it is more perfect then the A8 (at least mechanically) Not to mention it is faster, quicker off the line and probably has more luxury and safety features...and a fully loaded LS costs less...
That said A-8 is a very attractive machine with an outstanding interior, and the 4 Wheel Drive is a definate plus in Snow country.
when it comes to which vehicle is safer in this class of cars it is ridiculous to keep pointing at the Audi as being less safe simply because of its aluminum construction. unless you know something specific to automobile safety as it relates to steel or aluminum construction you are merely stating opinion. tensile strength may seem like an argument but when an automobile is engineered from the ground up the most important aspect is the design of the safety cage...the man made aspect of the equation. also you keep stating accidents with fire. any accident that is that severe would place occupants of either a steel or aluminum vehicle in peril.
i visited Lexus web site. i was surprised to see that the LS430 did not have rear seat side airbags. also it does not have a suspension that lowers at speed....ie 70mph.
here is some information from Audi USA's website. it seems reasonable but i am no
expert.
20+ years of quattro®
Why quattro all-wheel drive? Simple. Audi's legendary system optimizes traction and lateral grip while minimizing the effects of drive forces on chassis balance. A little physics shows why. There are two forces at work on each tire. Longitudinal force is caused by acceleration or deceleration. Lateral force affects the car during cornering or in crosswinds. The decisive factor is the total force, the sum of both forces at work on each individual tire, because this determines the vehicle 's remaining safety reserves. The total maximum force must always be greater than available traction, the maximum force the wheels can transfer onto the road surface. If it is less, the tires lose contact with the road, and the car goes into a skid.
When all four wheels are driven, each wheel needs to transfer only 25 percent of the power to the road, instead of 50 percent as in the case of front-or rear-wheel drive. Each wheel can therefore handle greater lateral force before reaching its traction limit. In turn, this makes the car safer and more fun to drive.
The quattro system found on every new Audi is our fourth generation. Audi not only pioneered all-wheel drive for passenger cars, we keep making it better. And while others are just now discovering the benefits of four driven wheels, competitive systems haven't yet stood the test of time. In the world of all-wheel drive systems, there's quattro. And not quite.
The thing that knocked me out the first time I heard an ML in a 2002 LS430 was that on a well-recorded acoustic jazz CD [Mapleshade recordings are good for this] you got a real sense of imaging and a soundstage when driving down the road. The sound of the horns was accurate and you could hear the bass player plucking the strings. Most car cds have no dynamic range. They can only handle loud and LOUD because the car environment is so noisy. With a Lexus in cruise mode on the freeway, it's possible to get some of the benefits of a well-recorded disc.
On the Nakamichi system in my LS400, I've almost given up listening to classical because the soft sounds are drowned out and there's no ambience or imaging. Everything sounds flat although pleasant enough.
The music should not sound like it's all around you. If there's a singer, he/she should come from a fixed location in space, and the accompanists should seem to be floating in their proper places.
Above all, acoustic instruments should not blend in with electronic instruments.
Once you get the system right for "simple" music, then any music -- whether orchestral or pop or rock just "locks" into place.
If you've never heard a high end home stereo, I recommend you do so. That will give you a benchmark for what a good car stereo should aim for.
Cause let me tell you, high-end home systems in Europe can be very, very fine.
I believe all LS all have a stability control systems...MY 01 does..
It has VSC..with Brake Assist and Traction Control.
The air suspension system can be switched from Soft to Sport... at highway speed the suspension lowers the car automatically for better airodynamics and control...If I drive Aggresively the System automatically Stiffens. THE CAR CAN ALSO BE RAISE (I THINK UP TO 3 INCHES FOR better clearence in Snow or on bumpy roads)
P.S my 92 Cadillac Allante had an air suspension system that automatically lowered the car at 70..
ONCE AGAIN...I HAVE MADE NO JUDGEMENTS AS TO WHICH CAR IS SAFER.
i couldn't find that information on the Lexus website. i'll go back and check again. the curtain airbag is different than
a side air bag. is the air suspension an option or standard?
4 different settings.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_09/b3922126_mz017- .htm
AM interesting data point is that, without SUVs, Lexus would rank 5th in sales in the USA. They claimed SUV sales were slowing down, in general, which was news to me.
I guess because the 300C is much more agressive in its detailing along with the personel carrier look that says mafia or something like that. The GS just looks like some kind of humpback whale to me, or a disfigured version of the previous car.
I agree about VW too, though they could have done better on the Jetta, imo.
M
Well in Europe they Chrylser part won't work and the A-Class isn't coming here anyway. They've had the A-Class since 1997, before the merger.
I don't think they'll bring a S320CDI here because it will be a V6 model and MB and all the rest of the Euro crowd has given up on a 6-cylinder versions of their top-line cars because they wouldn't be too competitive at the prices they'd have to charge for them. The S400CDI is a V6 with 260hp in the current S-Class, but for new S-Class the engine is to be revamped to develop 314hp according to most MB spy sites.
You can forget a stripped MB, BMW or Lexus in the U.S. Americans definition of a "luxury" car won't allow it.
M
This couldn't be more wrong. Chevy, Ford and Dodge don't make nearly as many variants of their cars from no hp to 500hp. Secondly where can I get a Corvette, Viper or GT with no hp in a "pedestrian" version. These cars are specialty models for their repsective makers and don't share squat with Cobalts, Neons and Mustangs that they sell beside. An E-Class is just that wheter it is a E240 or a E55 AMG.
Pure nonesense to even suggest the relationship is the same.
"Your assessment is probably incorrect. Lexus sells around 3300 LS430 and LX470 alone each month; add almost all of the 2800 or so GX470 which are usually priced over $50k when popular options are added; the a small per centage of fully loaded RX330's, which has a huge base number to work with, like 9-10k units, even if only 10% of them are fully loaded, that's another 1k units. Add another 700-1k units for SC430. We have what, 7-8k Lexus units sold in the US being over $50k, estimated very conservatively, before even counting any GS model at all. MB only sells 12-13k cars in the US a month. There is simply no way more than half of them are over $50k. MB has a lot of models, but precious little unit sales among its high end models. That also explains why MB quality has gone down the toilet: what little engineering budget there is has to be spread thin.
Again, prove me otherwise. On a yearly basis who sells more cars over 50K was the poster's question. I said Lexus, now if you think otherwise find Lexus' year end press release and add up all the cars they sell for over 50K. The RX330 isn't a 50K unless you just want to give Lexus some extra money, meaning it has to struggle to get there in MSRP, if possible and it certainly doesn't sell on average for that price.
"MB only sells 12-13k cars in the US a month."
You are kidding me right? 13K cars a month would be 156K units a year, not the 221K that they sold last year of the 218 in 2003 or the 210K in 2002. Wrong and grossly incorrect sales theories, look up the numbers. In Jan 2005 they sold the amount you're talking about due coming down off Dec 2004 in which they sold over 26K units for the month.
Present the sales numbers for the SL, CL, S, G, V8 E-Class/CLK models and compare them to the Lexus LS, GS430, LX470, SC430 and tell me who sells more at 50K or above. You won't be able to spin the results in Lexus' favor. The RX330 isn't a 50K vehicle.
M
"What MB has are niche cars (S600/SL/CLS/AMGs) not necessarily luxury cars, since these sell in so low numbers. The mainstream luxury car seller, at least in the US, is Lexus. The numbers bear it out, and numbers don't lie, or do they ?
That is the most deperate spin I have ever read. You mean to tell me that when Lexus does this 125K sports car and a 100K hybrid version of the next LS it won't be a luxury car because they won't sell in large numbers? Now volume makes a luxury car, yet they're supposed to be exclusive items? Now we have a "mainstream" luxury seller because Lexus doesn't compete in the higher price brackets where Mercedes and BMW rule? This absolutely makes no sense at all.
Why not break out which brand sells more beige, black or silver cars to determine which is the truly luxury seller? I mean this would be just about as logical as breaking out who is the "mainstream" seller. Who sells more cars with hi-performance tires or who sells more cars with 18 inch wheels or 19 inchers.
M
For all the fact finders present I still see nothing about the safety of the A8 or the LS430 one way or another, and certainly nothing about the A8 being "less safe" than the LS430.
Yet there have been countless theories about metals and how they bend, react to heat and everything else, but nothing that proves the original claim. As usual there are those asking for anyone taking the side of the A8 prove the original poster wrong, yet the folks defending the A8 didn't make such a ridiculous claim about or any claims about the LS430's safety, yet A8 supporters are supposed to do all the "proving" when origanal claim was made by a LS430 supporter? The claim was made against the A8 so there is where the burden proof lies.
Going once, going twice.......proof of the A8 being less safe than LS430 because it has aluminum sheetmetal and a aluminun structure.
That there is no such data is the reason why no crash test scores or anything else pertaining to or backing this claim has been shown.
M
M
i did quite a bit of searching about this non- sense of which automobile is safer. the previous A8 was the only luxury sedan to receive 5 stars for the driver and passenger. the current version has yet to be tested.
much was made about the ignition temperature of the aluminum skin. one poster on another site made the point that there are plenty of items to burn well before the aluminum would on an A8. sounds reasonable to me.
also when it comes to safety....all of the active and passive safety systems on the A8 make it at the very least equal to any other automobile in this class.
in your post about sales numbers..... Lexus's numbers sink even lower if you remove the re badged Land Cruiser. like i mentioned many many posts ago...the LS, GS, IS, and SC are the
only true Lexus specific designs. these are the numbers that should be counted. and i know this pisses a lot of people off. my point is not to knock the quality of the cars they design and sell but to merely compare it to the strength and breadth of the MB's lineup. at this point in time there is no comparison between the two brands in what they offer the high end buying customer.
i tried to pull up an article on businessweek but
you have to be a member to do so. maybe you could copy/paste it.
The only way for anyone to know which is safer is to see how the VW Phaeton does versus the A8 in crash testing, of which neither has been tested yet. You know since they are the same car and all to everyone.
M
I doubt that Aluminum would make a difference (in a negative way) in the crash results. Keep in mind Aluminum is used on aircraft regularly. Only recently have they moved to lighter composities.
On the radio front: I read the Edmunds Top 10 ranking of the sound systems. All except MB (surprising) were on it. I swear that the Mark Levinson on my new LS is better than my '02..The old car's system seemed muffled. The Pioneer in my LS400 was better at reproducing instrumental music..But now you can tell the difference.
Anyone listen to the Alpine unit in the Jaguar?
SV
NO NO NO NO NO NO!!
That would violate every copyright law in the book!!!
The problem with the link is that something has lately screwed up the way they get posted. To make that link work, you have to copy it all the way through the ".htm" that follows the highlighted part, paste it into the address bar, remove the "-" and the space that is between the "-" and the ".htm". Yeah, PITA.
I have reported this issue, but so far I have no feedback on what is the deal.
Meanwhile let me see if I can make it work. Try clicking here.
-dealerships:
What were your experiences with the dealers when you bought your cars? Does anyone have experience with European delievery? What I am trying to get at is if the buying "experience" truly was one that you would expect from a luxury marque...
-price+performance:
That seems to be the Japanese carmaker strategy. Enter the market with lower prices and when they have a good stand, they go on par with the other ones. That was the argument that I made in here before. Now, why would they want to increase their performance if they were already better than their competition? Ohh, maybe Lexus is not that fast after all.
-style:
If I remember right, I talked about that before. That will be their biggest challenge, and I don't believe that they can do it really. Toyota tried to make Scion stylish and most people I know agree that they failed miserably. The Tc is the most bland and the least ugly. Most people here will probably say that the Bangle BMW design is ugly. I think that what BMW does, works for them. It is sort of...consistent. But tell me: if you don't have the Lexus badge on, can you really tell what it is? Does it stand out from the crowd? I know that wasn't their purpose until now...
Finally, it seems from this article that MB and BMW are what Lexus is being measured against...
Sucker line, plain and simple. It’s an ancient sales tactic that doesn’t work today. I seriously doubt whether it ever did. If any salesperson ever used that on me I’d remind him of what HE can afford and let him know in no uncertain terms what an AH he is.
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I don't think he was trying to comment on all the competitors... Just saying he had bigger fish to fry than Lexus..
Also, I doubt that BMW AG considers Lexus separately from Toyota, when looking at them as competition.. I'm sure BMW NA sees it differently... (my editorial commentary).
regards,
kyfdx
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