High End Luxury Cars

Kirstie_H · February 2005

A magazine is interested in talking with current and former Audi owners with strong opinions about the brand. If you traded in an Audi to buy another brand's SUV, please indicate that in your response. Please reply to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Thursday, March 3, 2005 with your daytime contact info and a few words about your decision.

ljflx · February 2005

The key word in his comment to me was the word "one" in reference to "one global competitor". That made it clear to me that he doesn't take Audi seriously since they are a global player and a German company as well. It's actually a very respectful comment to Lexus or Toyota - however you look at it. You can't compete globally with something that doesn't exist yet so in reality he could have been insulting if he wanted to. But he smartly chose not to be that way.

xkss · February 2005

I find it amazing that people are so amazed at what is a Toyota Celsior with a different badge. It is well-built but beyond boring.

I wish BMW never made an suv and concentrated on wagons instead.

ljflx · February 2005

In reality the LS car came first and the Celsior was its offspring. You'd prefer a station wagon over an SUV? I'm sure BMW competitors wish they'd make a mistake as big as that one.

ljflx · February 2005

Your point about how to count cars doesn't piss me off at all nor do I think it would bother many. It's simply a ridiculous way of looking at things. You have this strange theory that a car can only count if it has some weird purity that you believe in. The fact that an ES330 is only 25% Camry as sv7887 pointed out so often is something you just don't get. But let's look at the real world. How many Camry's do you think the ES330 canibalizes every yearn or vice versa? You may not even need two hands to count them. You may not even need a finger. You know why, none of its buyers consider it the way you do and its a car that hits its mark perfectly. Now ask how many competitor sales the ES330 is canibalizing because it's cannibalizing 75k of some lux brands cars every year. The fact that A GX470 has a totally different feel, look and lux presence and fabulous ride that makes you think it's a lux car rather than an SUV vs. a 4-runners pure truck feel is lost on you. The fact that the LX470 was raised to a height that made it the ultimate lux SUV and cannibalized Range Rover sales and more than doubled what TLC's normal annual sales in the US had been is also lost on you. The fact that the RX is an original vehicle is somehow lost on you. What is funniest and strangest of all is you also discount a vehicle like the TLC because it had a Toyota badge even though historically it is a legendary, expensive SUV viewed as the best or one of the best SUV's ever made and one that is far removed from Toyota's normal prices to begin with. In your view a business can't take advantage of its' existing assets. That's a nice way of saying let me make as little money as I can. So you can make the argument you do but I think other than some diehard German car fans you won't find many people who think as you do. That's why it won't bother anyone. Success has a way of easily disproving that these type of thoughts are nothing but someone's fancy.

designman · February 2005

I wish BMW never made an suv and concentrated on wagons instead.

I couldnt agree more. The problem is that SUVs and Mini are responsible for their recent success. Cayenne now accounts for more than half of Porsches sales. If the world wants pigs, you sell pigs and count your money.

You'd prefer a station wagon over an SUV?

Absolutely. A sport wagon with a convertible rear hardtop. Covers many bases.

ljflx · February 2005

You'd prefer a station wagon over an SUV?

But the market wants SUV's.

designman · February 2005

Sometimes I wish gas prices would double. That would put an end to this SUV nonsense.

ljflx · February 2005

Not with hybrids on the horizon. It's here to stay.

oac · February 2005

That is the most deperate spin I have ever read. You mean to tell me that when Lexus does this 125K sports car and a 100K hybrid version of the next LS it won't be a luxury car because they won't sell in large numbers?

Spin ? Me, concort spin ? Hehehehe

:):)

Why drag up long lost posts..... Among all the posts here, I have lost touch where we were, what we were discussing, and why ???? BUT, I have found something: That DENALIINPA is absolutely infatuated with this forum as his opium. As a long-term poster here, my suggestion for him is to take a break and slow down.... Not everything needs a response....

designman · February 2005

"Not with hybrids on the horizon. It's here to stay."

Could be. But I'm not so sure about it. I have a feeling hybrid prices are not going to come down to price levels of conventional cars, even with volume production. Theres too much going on with them mechanically and electronically. Did computers ever come down to the price levels of typewriters? The comparison is extreme, but similar nonetheless.

oac · February 2005

Sometimes I wish gas prices would double. That would put an end to this SUV nonsense.

No matter what, SUV is here to stay in my house. Its not that I want one, but the significant other MUST have one. I blame GM and Ford for creating this monster.

designman · February 2005

"I blame GM and Ford for creating this monster."

Not me, I blame the significant others. I recently counted 19 SUVs in succession at a stoplight in my town... all driven by significant others.

(I think we are going to be blessed with a visit by Pat pretty soon ;-)

pat · February 2005

Ya, I'm here ... :-)

GM and Ford don't really belong here - some of you need to check the topic and get with the program, yes?

Someone said "Not everything needs a response" ... I could NOT agree more. Maybe we could try to ignore the posts that are way off base for whatever reason and keep our own posts topical?

And if anyone has a serious problem with something out of line that has been posted, how about just dropping me an email and letting me handle it instead of posting a response. Dealing with that sort of thing is my job ... not anyone else's ...

ljflx · February 2005

That was downright impressive. I like your choice of the word blessed to. Hope Pat appreciated it.

I almost forgot your marketing question. I can tell you that Lexus is going to make a real big deal about the new models and worldwide branding in 2007. This will be equal to or greater than the pre 1990 pre-launch and continuation after launch marketing and brand awareness push. Some of this I know firsthand because the marketing information business is how I make a living. Though they say they want to go after BMW that is only to raise awareness in the younger crowd for the new IS and GS. It's MB that remains in their crosshairs. BMW - no need to change anything - always a great local market advertiser with a lot of sponshorship events and dealer tie-ins. MB - no clue - they are going into cost-cutting mode.

michael_mattox · February 2005

Merc

It would be nice if you would provide a post number ...I don't recall anyone saying the A8 was less safe then the LS...Saying this over and over again does not make it so...But I am Old and have a Sometimes faulty Memory..so I ASK YOU to PLEASE back up your claim.

If You cannot Provide the POST NUMBER...PLEASE STOP MAKING THAT STATEMENT WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE TO BE TRUE ...THANKS.

ljflx · February 2005

All of these cars are leaders in safety and as a result are among the safest cars on the road. But if any of them gets rammed by a large SUV it won't matter what they are made of. The real issue to me is why did Audi move to aluminum in the first place. Was it purely for weight and fuel economy or were they trying to create a point of differentiation. Whatever it was - it didn't do anything for them and probably scared buyers away.

pat · February 2005

Click here to get to what oac wants you to see.

Sorry about the link problem ...

oac · February 2005

Thanks, Pat. I tried many times and finally decided to post the entire text with the link provided.

ljflx · February 2005

Too bad he didn't ask him about his stolen car.

When you see profit maximaztion instead of cost cutting you know the guy is still in shock/denial and can't handle the reality he's facing. Last time I heard that type of talk was when Al the butcher/hatchet man was hired for another turn around and failed to the point that he falsified revenue in the pre-Enron fiasco days. It also reminds me of pre-owned vs. used labelling. I do agree with him that sending a few top lieutenants to help Chrysler didn't have any effect on MB. In a manufacturing business that big the system is what is crucial not two managers. But that's also why I think MB's problems are so big. There is something wrong with the system and a guy was fired for saying so. Meanwhile a cost cutter is brought in for the fix. Draw your own conclusions on that one.

The other thing is he mentions is this:

"with the aim of repositioning Mercedes as the No.1."

So he admits MB has lost its throne? That is very interesting because it may have been an accidental slip of what the real mindset in the company is given everything else he said was a lot of BS trying to cover such a thought up.

denaliinpa · February 2005

do you have any understanding of building and protecting a brand? how many times do you think you have heard that "Lexus are only high priced Toyota's"? do you know why people say this? they say it because it is true. Lexus showrooms are filled with re badged Toyota's. what kind of luxury brand is this? and no matter how you like to spin the GX and LX suv's...they are 99% Toyotas that you as a consumer are being duped into paying premiums for. why anyone...anyone at all would purchase a Lexus SUV over the exact same vehicle that sells in the Toyota showroom across the street for substantially less money is beyond rational thinking. so the Toyota Land Cruiser is legendary...ok i agree....so you know what I'm going to do...go spend an extra 11K to own one with the Lexus badge on the grill as opposed to the Toyota. great. hats of to Lexus....they now how fool people.

ljflx · February 2005

The only place I've ever heard it is by those who say it on this board and none of them are professionals who would know better. And yes I know a thing or two about business and brand building.

Now please don't tell me that I don't know what I'm doing as a consumer or that I am a fool when I save a bundle on choosing an LS430 over an S500 and end up with the car that is at a minimum its equal and in every owner tabulated survey beats it to death. Case closed on that one.

By the way have you ever priced a fully loaded TLC?? It usually is all of a few thousand less than an LX470 and for the latter you get an air suspension and a few other things not available or included on a TLC. Those who used to say they were 10-12K apart were comparing a TLC with many missing options to an LX470 that had everything included in its price. Good luck finding a TLC that was as stripped as those mentioned. That was a custom order. Every TLC brought here is loaded. When I bought the loaded TLC was $59.5K and the loaded LX470 was $61.7k. There was no $10K difference. The $2.2K bought me an air suspension, an up and down suspension adjustment, a better stereo and a cmore luxurious interior plus two free scheduled services. Cheapest TLC on the lot was $57K and change and missing things I wanted. My difference in lease price was $11 per month. Wow!

denaliinpa · February 2005

i interpreted the "no.1" remark to automotive survey positioning.

ljflx · February 2005

He didn't finish the sentence so only he knows. For whatever its worth - I think he caught himself just in time to leave out the last word or two. We've all been there - where we said or started to say something we shouldn't. But who knows - because it's a translated article sometimes things are lost in the translation.

denaliinpa · February 2005

i stand by my original post.
the pricing between the vehicles is
very different. a TLC with options
is approx. 60500. the LX..67+.

denaliinpa · February 2005

would it be accurate to say that the VW Phaeton and the Touraeg(sp) have carried VW upmarket?
when it comes to available equipment and luxury isn't the Phaeton the equal of all the other offerings in this class?

merc1 · February 2005

"Don't understand why you are interested in selling prices but not in profits or a company's financial strength.

Well the claim was made that Lexus sells more luxury cars in the U.S. over 50K so I said it was Mercedes. The profits, business curve, all that jazz we've been over and is irrelevant to what I was asking. Last I checked Mercedes was still selling cars that compete with Lexus and ones that don't, at a premium over Lexus, BMW and Audi. You've been saying that people are going to stop paying this and stop paying that, but it hasn't happened yet. The two sales leaders in this particular class are the least expensive and the most expensive so.....kinda goes against the doom and gloom prediction from you that is now 4 years old.

FYI a S500 never, ever sold at 110K.

BMW has had over 40 years to displace Mercedes as #1 whatever that means in the grand scheme of things, prestige, sales etc. The comment was made about sales which BMW managed to pass Mercedes during certain months last year. BMW won't pass Mercedes until they build something under their own brand that can match up with the exotics of the world, and they certainly need something other than a 7-Series to match Mercedes' CL, SL, SLR models. I know its lost point on this board but those are the cars that get the headlines and build the brand image, especially when rich folk all over the world drive them. BMW isn't even close to toppling Mercedes on that front. Their last exclusive model, the Z8 was slaughtered by the SL.

M

merc1 · February 2005

You're right, saying a S600, AMG or SL or CL aren't luxury cars wasn't worth a response. Total spin. I couldn't believe you said that and then posted such a elegant, level-headed review of the GS300 and M35 in another forum. That really did have me wondering who was using your user id...lol!

M

oac · February 2005

I couldn't believe you said that and then posted such a elegant, level review of the GS300 and M35 in another forum. That really did have me wondering who was using your user id...

That was my evil twin, take your pick

denaliinpa · February 2005

will people pay 100k for a Lexus sedan or sports car in the US or Europe? i think it's a hard sell...if not close to impossible. maybe 10 from years.

merc1 · February 2005

I think those products did push VW upmarket in the eyes of VW fans, but the rest of the market really didn't notice much, especially the Phaeton. The Touareg is a fine SUV and it has been successful, but the VW brand was already seen as upmarket from say Ford, Chevy or Dodge.

The Passat in particular was always seen as upmarket from a Camry, Accord or Altima, and priced accordingly, and if you look at the new one you'll see what I mean. Unfortunately VW needs to offer the upmarket ambience with a regular market price otherwise they aren't going to sell many of anything anymore.

M

oac · February 2005

Excerpts and comments:

"What happened to the Germans' favorite car, the Mercedes?

These days, the cars of all premium carmakers contain a lot of electronics, not only at Mercedes. And electronics cannot simply be bought and integrated into a car. We need to ensure smooth cooperation with our suppliers."

The word again: electronics.... So MB has problem integrating electronics into their cars. And this is the #1 marque brand in the world ?

"So you're blaming the others?

No. We're responsible for Mercedes. Our customers have a right to top quality, and they will get it."

Revealing statement here. Notice that Jurgen didn't say "they are getting it", rather "they will get it" Hmmmmmm... Good luck to current MB owners, since it will appear that only future owners will benefit from their quality upgrade.

Overall: the Q&A is very revealing. The general tone and pointedness of the questions reveal the seriousness and the REALITY of the problems at MB. Unfortunately, the top execs are still in some denial, with loads of excuses and massaging of facts to gloss over the problems. I sure hope and wish MB the very best in turning things around. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

merc1 · February 2005

"So he admits MB has lost its throne? That is very interesting because it may have been an accidental slip of what the real mindset in the company is given everything else he said was a lot of BS trying to cover such a thought up.

What he was talking about is in quality and sales over BMW, which outsold Mercedes for a few months in 2004. He isn't talking about your positioning theory. Now he had to catch himself because he made a mistake? Lexus' chairman shoots his mouth off about the GS and even the faithful aren't wowed by the car. Did he slip too? Hype at its best. One wrong word and a car company is done.

Oac,

Why post the review if its such a joke?

M

oac · February 2005

Merc1:

By denials I refer to statements such as these:

- "The quality of all cars that leave our plants today is better than ever"

Really ? Then why is the question still being asked ?

- "Without the weak dollar and the costs at Smart in 2004 the result of the Mercedes Car Group would have been markedly better in 2004"

And no other global auto manufacturer was affected by the weak dollar, right ?

- "No, a profit maximization program. Because we're not only looking at costs, but also at revenues. Eckhard Cordes has the right people and knows which levers to pull. You'll see tangible progress at Mercedes-Benz cars in the next twelve months"

Talking of spin, eh ???

- "And electronics cannot simply be bought and integrated into a car."

It's not our fault....

I could find more of this kinda *denials* and *excuses* if you insist....

merc1 · February 2005

So the currency situation has no affect on anything?

This:

"And electronics cannot simply be bought and integrated into a car."

is a denial or an excuse? Sounds like to that is what they were doing and they realize it doesn't work.

Take a hard look at costs doesn't sound like a spin or excuse to me either, sounds like they're at the very least trying to do something about it.

The only part I find suspect is about the quality of the cars leaving the plant being the best ever, that remains to be seen just yet.

Just admit that you find the whole interview to be a joke or excuse, no need to pick it apart line by line that is tired.

Spin: Saying a SL or S600 isn't a luxury car to make a illogical point about sales.

M

oac · February 2005

C'mon Merc1, you gotta learn to let go.... The SL or S600 are true luxury cars.

And I didn't post that Schrempp interview for fun or to make a joke about it. But really to (a) change the topic which was going no-where, and (b) hear from the CEO of Mercedes-Benz on the state of affairs at MB. Whatever else comments we all make are our own opinions, right ? Like you, I am entitled to mine. You don't have to agree with it.

merc1 · February 2005

Its hard to take your opinion seriously (sometimes) when you make statements like that about cars costing over 100K not being luxury cars..makes we wonder if you really believed that. Secondly if were to post an interview from a Lexus exec talking about how they keep promising to add excitement and some style to brand I'd be accused of bashing in a min if I pointed to the new GS and said something like thats the best they can do. You couldn't have thought posting an interview about MB and then taking it apart by calling it excuses and denial would change the direction that this thread has been going over the last week or so...come on now who you kidding? Thats all this thing has been about, and you can't say I started it, there are newbies here....lol!

M

oac · February 2005

My opinions of the GS is well known, so allow me to do the Lexus bashing for you. Lexus missed the mark on this car, imo. I have moaned and complained for weeks about the 3L motor on the '06 GS, rather than the 3.5L released in Japan. Coupled with no SPORT package, the GS300 may be a liability (imo) until MY2007 when it gets the upgraded 3.5L motor. My opinions on MB are also well known - no secret there. If Lexus exec goofed, pls feel free to post and we'll debate it as well. Did you not post about Lexus' recall in China recently ? Was that bashing or fact ? I think it is fact, not bashing.

merc1 · February 2005

I think people will pay 100K for a Lexus sedan in limited numbers, but 125K for that sports car concept I think they can forget about it, unless they change the styling quite a bit. The proportions are right, but the details are terrible. The Acura NSX comes to mind as how the market will react to a super expensive Japanese sports car, then again I think Lexus has more sense than to let the car go unchanged for 15 years!

M

merc1 · February 2005

"If Lexus exec goofed, pls feel free to post and we'll debate it as well. Did you not post about Lexus' recall in China recently ? Was that bashing or simply facts ? I think it is fact, not bashing.

Ok I'll keep that in mind, though it isn't that serious to me. Interviews with car execs really don't do anything for me unless they say something really off the charts. I don't think anyone wants to read anymore about Lexus and Mercedes or Audi at this point. So I'll pass on the search engine for Lexus exec interviews.

M

ljflx · February 2005

You always exaggerate what I say about MB. Everything I said has come true so far and I said these things 2-4 years ago. Reliability and quality would slip and it would be embarassing to them, sales will fall off and profits would drop to the point that they may go in the red. Well officially the first two occurred and are continuing and the latter is a miss by all of $20mln at the operating income line. Unofficially - you can bet your life they are in the red at the net income line and that the operating income is a propped up number. Trust me - this is my area of expertise at a very high level and I could write a college textbook chapter on teaching an auditor what to look for.

Now the currency problem - it effected every importer of every good to the US. MB had 70% profit coverage for the dollar in 2004. That is reflected in their figures. The other 30% is not but overall this is by and large an immaterial amount. That's why it's spin on his part. The results would have been unacceptable no matter what is a non-spin statement.

Gloom and doom - never said they would go bankrupt or any other crazy statement like that. Said they would slip precipitously and it would show up financially and it has. Said the quality would continue to decline and it has. I also said they'd eventually correct things but never return to their glory days of pre-1990. Their days of grand master supreme by a wide margin are over. Their days of being a top auto maker and among the finest in the world have a long run still in front of them.

CEO spin - It's part of the job qualifications and all of them do it very well.

merc1 · February 2005

Well the quality and reliability part really isn't anythin new and sales haven't dropped either. They were off a few percent last year compared to 2003 worldwide. The exageration is just about every post about MB on this board. Like I said before they're still selling cars are a premium and will continue to do so. Their pre-1990 days are gone and so are BMWs and anyone else in the luxury car market. Nothing that wasn't easily predicted has happened.

M

denaliinpa · February 2005

michael,

the post numbers are 7767 and 7801.
the inference was made that the aluminum
skin of the Audi A8 had inherent flaws
that made it more dangerous and less sturdy
in case of an accident.

pat · February 2005

oac, drop me an email when you have a chance, please - pat AT edmunds DOT com. Thanks.

denaliinpa · February 2005

here is a link to an article
ranking the top CPO'd brands.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4020743&src=ms- n

michael_mattox · February 2005

Merc:

It would seem to me the quality of a car and it's appointments, state of the art features, comfort, Safty and dependability, make for a Luxury car..NOT PRICE..

Yes the S Class is far more expensive then an LS Ultra, but is it Better....

ljflx · February 2005

I must have missed all those predictions and imagined all the MB fans, you included, that said it would never happen.

michael_mattox · February 2005

Merc:

I have carefully read the two posts and the link provided...He does not state that The Audi is less safe then Lexus...In fact he doesn't mention Lexus in either post...The question is advantages or dis advantages of aluminum frames and the Link seems to disprove any advantages for aluminum...

http://ussautomotive.com/auto/steelvsal/mechproperties.htm

Here once again is the link...I will ask you once again to please stop this misrepresentation of the posters words and meaning....They are clear to me...and he has clairified his intent in later messages just to be perfectly certain he was not misunderstood.

kyfdx · February 2005

I "carefully" read his posts as well.. and I inferred that he was denigrating the safety of the Audi, by implying that aluminum body panels would be less safe than steel..

It is disingenuous to assume his intention was anything else, regardless of further posts..

And, if that isn't the case.. then what was the point?

pat · February 2005

I think it's kinda silly for several people to be arguing over what another person may or may not have meant.

Why don't we drop this particular exchange?

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