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Comments
1. MB starts at 29,970, Lexus at 30,280. MB's product line BRACKETS Lexus' in price. If Lexus ran 30-70k and MB 50-140k you would have a valid point on price. But MB starts slightly lower.
2. "10k-30k more for BASE MB models compared to loaded Lexus models"
a. The prices given on the Lexus website are for base, not loaded, vehicles.
b. The 10-30k premium you suggest is only true for some comparisons. But even there, if you look at lease rates the gap is narrower, or even non-existent.
c. Your vehicle-by-vehicle matchups don’t make sense:
S vs LS. LS is often cross-shopped with the E, not solely with the S. You can find examples on these very boards.
SL500 vs SC430. What about the CLK and SLK?
3. “The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product.” You forgot to add the qualifier “all else being equal”. Because if there is suitably higher content to go along with a higher price, the higher priced product need not sell in lower units.
For instance, I don’t have numbers but it wouldn’t be surprising if diamond engagement rings outsold sapphire ones, despite being higher priced. Why? Because of the prestige and tradition that go with diamond. Higher content.
Prestige is valuable, and, other things equal, if one product has more prestige it can command a higher price. PRESTIGE IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER “FEATURE” OF A PRODUCT, such as larger engine, better styling, etc insomuch as people are willing to pay extra for it.
Suppose there is a housing developer who is building new homes on a large tract of land. Suppose that he offers only two models, “m4” which has 4000 sq ft on 1 acre, and “m5” which has 5000 sf on 1.25 acres. You are saying “The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product.” meaning that it is impossible to sell in the same quantities if one is priced higher. I submit that if m5 is priced only slightly higher than m4, say 5%, then it will not only sell more units (directly opposite what you suggest), but it will probably sell MULTIPLE TIMES as many units as m4. Similarly if the developer tries to price too much for the extra content, say 45%, then m4 will outsell m5 by multiple times. If follows that there is a some price premium between 5% and 45% where the two will sell in EQUAL numbers, DESPITE m5 being priced higher. I don’t know if that premium will be 20% or some other number, but the important point is that if a product has higher content, be it size or prestige, it can outsell even a lower-priced product.
We can see this principle in operation in the real world, even WITHIN THE MB PRODUCT LINE. Did you know that in some years the S500 outsells the S430? How could that be, if “The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product”??? Answer: sufficiently higher content, including prestige. So you can’t use price as an excuse for MB’s US sales performance, because there is an offsetting factor at work: prestige.
You should check your facts. C&D tested the LS with all-season tires and the S with summer tires. Somehow I think that might have had some impact on the relative "skid-pad, road-holding, braking distance, and other driving dynamics"...don't you?
Put another way, if summer tires don't have performance advantages over all-seasons, why does anyone make them or buy them?
As I tried to make clear earlier, I don't dispute MB's 120 years of SAFETY innovations, and I don't think others here have either, so why keep pounding away on the safety issue?
Where we differ on innovation is the relative merits of post-1990 TOTAL innovation (not just safety) by the respective companies. As I posted earlier, Toyota has 2.5 TIMES the number of issued patents.
But Mr. tiag_m5/jovialanus somehow left out part of the C&D comparo: the LS's "Acceleration is brisk: second best to 60 mph; third in the quarter, at 95 mph, as it showed taillights to three of the four Germans. Yet its fuel economy on our trip tied the Jag's at 21 mpg, topped the Audi's, BMW's, and Benz's by 2 mpg"
"Lexus lags behind the automotive market in safety, hasn’t innovated a single safety feature, and refuses to provide basic safety features on its models?"
What a tall statement to make ? So what does these things you state so emphatically translate to ? Poorer product ? Less safe product ? What ?
Aren't you the one who talks about Lexus stealing all those Mercedes Innovations...
I simply agreed with you...
The prof that lexus makes them better is the Lexus Dependability compared to Mercedes..Lexus has most of the same innovations..just put them in a couple of years after Mercedes...Yet ours work flawlessly...and You wish yours did.
My 01 Ultra has Curtin side airbags in the back and side airbags in the front.
Since this is the High end Luxury Board I will stick to responding to The LS.
I am not sure what emergency telematrics is..I have to ask is that the thing where if you get into a crash or your air bag inflates a 911 call goes out automatically with the location of your car...I have that...Plus an Emergency button that I can Push...It all works through the GPS system
So both Lexus and Mercedes don't offer Battery disconnect on fuel shot off...I don't know if my Lexus does or not and I am not going to wade through Hundreds of pages of Manual to try and find out.
The Price Barrier is a Testement to Lexus construction Techniques...The fact Mercedes is Overpriced is a Bad thing...for them RIGHT?
WHAT IS THIS INNOVATION..That results in 56% lower fatalities?.. Whatever it is I am sure My Lexus has it....Is it Airbags, Seatbelts, Crumple zones, VSC, ABS, ?...What pray tell are you talking about?
So you are saying Mercedes Uses their Upscale Buyers like Ginney pigs to test their Innovations and then put those innovations in all their cars later when they are sure they work? AND they upscale buyer gets to pay for the privledge of being a Ginney pig.
It has already been acknowledged that Mercedes and sometimes BMW will often engineer innovations that LEXUS will not have for a couple of years.
BMWs also don't have the same build quality. The current M3 has had TWO "service actions" for its engine because of rod bearings.
Porsche has had an RMS leak (rear main seal) in some Porsche 996s and 997s and Boxsters. They know they have a problem but won't fix it. The 911 Turbo and GT3 have a different engine and don't suffer this problem.
Is a 7 speed transmision an innovation? I guess, but who cares? Give me a car with stuff that works over "innovations" that don't.
Nope. That was your claim.
"The prof that lexus makes them better is the Lexus Dependability compared to Mercedes..Lexus has most of the same innovations..just put them in a couple of years after Mercedes...Yet ours work flawlessly...and You wish yours did.
Again, one single example of this being true would be nice. One example. Is it airbags, ABS, ESP, Brake Assist? What are these things that Lexus made so much better. I've asked this question for over a year now and yet no answer still. Again an example of airbags, abs or any other MB innovation not working would be nice also. All you'll do is turn around and repeat the above, but that doesn't make is so. Where is the proof to any of these claims you've made? Another poster, tiag_m5 is asking you for the same thing.
You do understand that there is a difference between a rear side airbag in the seat or door, as opposed to side curtain airbag that stretches from front to rear? It seems you're trying to say they are the same thing. They aren't, and the LS430 doesn't have side airbags in the rear seat or doors like all the other cars in this class do.
M
Look, I never said MB was more reliable than Lexus. In fact, I said quite the opposite. That said, MB reliability is blown way out of proportion. Most problems are minor in nature (i.e. burnt out light, broken switch) and not anything disastrous like a cracked engine block. Guess how many major problems I have had with my 2000 S430 that I bought in May '99? NONE. The battery quit on me last year, but that's it. In the end, I would prefer the piece of mind in safety of a MB than the reliable nature of the LS430.
I'll take a very safe car and no.1 reliability rating over your sick statistics any day of the week.
Your loss I suppose. Maybe when you roll your LS430 and its shoddy engineering allows the roof to collapse and crush your skull you'll think differently. Or maybe when your rear passenger receives rib fractures because Lexus doesn't offer rear side airbags you'll think differently. Or maybe when you roll an SC430 and you have your head sheared off on the asphalt because Lexus is too cheap to include a rollover protection system, available in cars that cost half as much, you'll think differently but then again maybe you wont because you’ll be dead. BTW, what is "sick" about my statistics? Do they make you sick because you know they are true? Interesting.
Your price issue is absurd. Lexus allows you to opt for the things MB forces down your throat. Opt for them all and you're in the low 70's. Try to keep price affordable and you are high 50's. No LS is built at the MSRP without any options so throwing up a mid 50's price is pure BS. But I thought choice was good not bad. I guess when it comes to options and pricing its bad but when it comes to derivatives of cars its great.
I'm not quite sure what your point is here. I acknowledge that Lexus offers many features standard that you must pay for with MB. This only further proves my point. A fully optioned LS430 costs $66,339. A base S430 costs $77,970. Let me rephrase what I said originally: Mercedes vehicles COST MORE than comparable Lexus vehicles. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Because Lexus vehicles COST LESS than Mercedes vehicles, it is only natural that Lexus should sell a greater volume of cars.
By the way with MB's horrendous integration of electronics I hope all the safety iems work when someone needs them.
Don't worry; they do.
Furthermore air suspension problems aren't new in the least and they aren't a Mercedes first innovation.
As far as how the supsension "works" it does just that, the S-Class has a wonderful ride with better handling than a LS430 too boot.
M
If an S, a 7, and an LS cost exactly the same, and they were all determined to be equally reliable (based on JD Powers surveys, etc.), which car would you buy?
Personally, as someone who has owned MBs, BMWs and now an LS, I have to admit I would go for the S.
Yeah, I did that and made sure to include the same profile information in order to disguise my identity
No really, I just wanted a name that wasn't so... vulgar, since I new this would be a long battle
Oh and that GM airbag thing is a bit of a misnomer. Yes they experimented with front airbags first, but unfortunately they never implemented them into wide scale production cars. Mercedes introduced the driver airbag on the 1981 S class.
I suggest you check out the SLK and CLS, they are built better than other current Mercedes. No car is built like those older Mercedes were, especially in sheetmetal thickness. Maybe a Maybach, but I haven't shut a door on one.
M
Mercedes' SL, CL, and S-Class sell at prices which there no Lexus model to even compare, pricewise. That doesn't limit their sales at all?
The SC430 compared the SLK? Not likely. One is a luxury car with no roof, the other is a much tigher, and now sports car. The CLK and SC line up perfectly though except for the AMG models.
That Mercedes lines starts at a few thousand dollars less than Lexus' doesn't account for the dozen or more cars they have that cost more than any Lexus. If their lineups matched up evenly from top to bottom then a sales contest would be truly level, but they aren't.
The LS430 is basically trying to hit two sections of the market at once. The LS430's base price is in indeed in E-Class territory, but it can be optioned to almost base S-Class territory, again a brillant strategy on their part, but they don't see for S-Class prices either way so how can you really compare sales of the S to the LS and say the LS is better because it sells more. It costs less, simply put. Everyone does not lease either.
"Where we differ on innovation is the relative merits of post-1990 TOTAL innovation (not just safety) by the respective companies. As I posted earlier, Toyota has 2.5 TIMES the number of issued patents."
Patents can be issued for the slightest improvement to an existing technology, this count unless you've gone through each one still doesn't mean Toyota has innovated more than Mercedes since 1990. All the true break throughs were already done years and years ago.
All Toyota did was add to them.
M
What does this have to do with safety engineering or equipment? You ride down the road thinking about Toyota's profits? Or does it cross your mind how safe and well built you car is...that safety part courtesy of Mercedes, Volvo and others. Nobody cares about Toyotas profits when they go buy one, much less riding down the street in one.
"You offer opinions, I offer facts. I've taken a nasty 35 MPH side impact in my LS400 and the car barely moved. I heard a faint thump..That's about it.."
Courtesy of all those who showed Toyota the way. Likewise Toyota will do the same with Hybrids. Heck Ford and Nissan either have or will have Hybrids because of Toyota. Its the same thing.
M
If there were any examples of this even remotely being true wouldn't the FT, WSJ or some other news agency have reported it by now? Mercedes' problems with electronics were or are with Nav systems and other convience features, not any safety innovation. Again if you have proof of any safety equipment not working I'd like to read about it. Otherwise this is just hype at best. You think Mercedes airbags, abs, pre-safe, brake assist and other safety features don't work, yet they've been on the roads for years and years? Come on now.
"Lexus allows you to opt for the things MB forces down your throat."
Very curious to know what these things are? What could Mercedes possibly force on someone in a luxury car that they either don't want or that Lexus makes optional?
M
That was your question. I believe my example is fully responsive to your question. The fact that MB has been having problems with its implementation of air suspensions for years, and Lexus added it later to its Ultras and has not had any problems reported with its version, directly makes the point that MB sets the standard that Lexus subsequently matches with greater reliability.
"As far as how the suspension "works" it does just that"
Tell that to the S owners who come back to their cars and find them on a strange tilt; more properly, you should say "when it works, it works great"- but that's true of most things on the S.
But I think that MB needs to be given more credit than some LS supporters want to give it for setting the bar that other manufacturers like Lexus have to shoot for. It's true in areas besides safety innovations, e.g. styling.
Yes but the question is how many of these patents were for worthwhile technologies. I would consider MB's patent for ESC of greater value than a Toyota patent for a new keyless entry remote. The sheer number of patents means nothing unless you know what the patents correspond to. Also, how do you know that 1500 of those Toyota patents aren't related to one complicated part, like the hybrid drive system?
In fact, larger size should help not hurt MB's S injury rates...as can be seen in the data, where the average "very large" car does better than the average "large" one.
Actually larger vehicles have more kinetic energy in collisions, so in a single vehicle crash, lighter (and well engineered) vehicles will fair better. Larger vehicles only have an advantage in multiple car accidents. This is generally the case for all cars, although a well engineered large car will certainly fair better in a single vehicle crash than a poorly engineered small car. The point is the larger size of the S isn't always an advantage although I guess it would be generally. It doesn’t matter anyway because this data is an inaccurate indicator of vehicle safety when the numbers are so close.
Your statement might be true if the average age of an S driver were 22 and the average for Lexus were 40, but I think you know better than that. You can't come up with hard numbers and neither can I. My guess is that average for both cars would be in the area of 45-58. IF it is higher for Lexus, do you realize that this would imply a greater number of people over, say 65, who may drive slower but also have slower reaction times and hence might be more accident-prone?
Neither of us can provide any hard numbers. But using intuition alone it is easy to understand why an S (or any other MB for that matter) would appeal to a younger, more reckless crowd, in addition to the older crowd that the LS430 caters to. But again, neither of us can show evidence of this... The bottom line is this: the IIHS injury data doesn't account for age, gender or personality demographics. Location demographics and a certain degree of randomness also play into this. The difference between the two cars in this particular measurement is so insignificant, that you really can't say either way given all the unknowns. However, I would argue that MB is safer because it incorporates more safety features into its cars and has a solid heritage as a safety leader.
But Mr. tiag_m5/jovialanus somehow left out part of the C&D comparo: the LS's "Acceleration is brisk: second best to 60 mph; third in the quarter, at 95 mph, as it showed taillights to three of the four Germans. Yet its fuel economy on our trip tied the Jag's at 21 mpg, topped the Audi's, BMW's, and Benz's by 2 mpg”
Wow, so it got second place in acceleration. That doesn’t outweigh the fact that it had the longest in class stopping distance, which in itself is a safety flaw. Also, you’re kidding yourself if you think different tires would have significantly affected the LS430’s performance. You might see a slight improvement, but nothing significant. It’s also interesting that C&D included a pre-refresh MB S class without the new 7 speed transmission and chose the smallest engine available, the S430, when a more fair comparison would have been the S500.
I don't think it does for the simple fact the amount of LS430s with air suspension is much less than the S-Classes of the world. Second air suspension is not a new technology and it certainly wasn't done by Mercedes first. My question to that poster was what specific MB innovations did Toyota/Lexus perfect later. Air suspension doesn't cut it. Lincoln and others have done it too with mixed results. How many LS430s are sold with air suspension? I'd be willing to bet not many.
The original claim was very specific about MB's orignal innovation being improved by Lexus, which I still haven't seen any proof of yet. Air suspension was done by others years ago and all Mercedes did was make it the standard for this class of car, of which everyone except BMW has now adopted either a air suspension option or made it standard. The 2000 S-Class, unreliability and all did that for this class of car. I bet the next LS moves upmarket to a space right under the 2007 S-Class, with an air suspension standard this time around.
"But I think that MB needs to be given more credit than some LS supporters want to give it for setting the bar that other manufacturers like Lexus have to shoot for. It's true in areas besides safety innovations, e.g. styling.
This is very true it seems that all the work of MB and others should be brushed aside because Toyota/Lexus has finally found something it can claim as a first...hybrids. While every car on the road including Lexuses have used and benefited from MB/Volvo and others many innovations over the years.
M
But the thing is, everything I said was true and verifiable. It is a well known fact that Lexus is generally slow to incorporate safety features into its cars. It is also well known that Lexus hasn't been the least bit innovative when it comes to safety. It would also be accurate to say that Lexus offers fewer safety features on its cars. Christ, you can't even find a Lexus with rear side airbags and the SC430 convertible doesn't even have roll-over protection.
I'm not saying that Lexus vehicles are inherently un-safe. I would much rather be in an accident riding in a Lexus than say a Pontiac. All I'm saying is that MB/Volvo/BMW offer more than Lexus does in this regard. The question comes down to this: would you rather buy a Lexus and have average safety and good reliability? Or would you rather buy a MB and have the best safety? I would gladly pay more for the latter. I guess it depends on your priorities...
Ahhh..... Let's ask a rhetorical question, Merc1, if price limits sale of the SL, CL and S-class, would any of these cars outsell its Lexus counterpart?
2004 sales:
SL/CL/CLK/SLK: 12,885/2,683/10,120/7,360
SC430: 9,708
Which, by my rough calculations, means that the MB coupes/verts selling in the $46K - $120K, outsold the $65K SC, by a wide margin... The much-higher priced SL-class alone outsold the much-lower priced Lexus SC430 by 3K units.... But price is NOT a factor, or is it?
The SL just beats the SC430 to a pulp by all accounts outside of a CR survey so it would probably outsell the SC430 at any price.
My point is that price is but one factor and the sales race isn't so cut and dry like you and others constantly say it is. There are many factors that go into sales, but to say price isn't one of them simply isn't true.
Sales of sporty cars is one thing, but sedans are pretty constant. The SL and CL don't have any price competition from Lexus. The SLK and CLK do in price, and the sales are about even by your numbers.
My main point is about the S-Class and the LS430, which aren't even close in price, unless you lease...which not everyone does.
The SL and CL have the market to themselves when it come to Japanese luxury cars. Their competitors are from Jaguar, BMW, Aston-Martin and the like, not Lexus.
M
So let me get this straight. You think that because the IS costs $310 more than a C230 that Lexus cars are less expensive overall than MB cars? What about the fact that a base E350 costs nearly $12,000 more than a base GS300? What about the fact that a base ML350 costs $2645 more than a base RX330? I don’t know why you even bother to bring the option issue to the table because it just proves my point. Not only are base model MB’s more expensive as a group than base model Lexus, but adding on options to both MB and Lexus only widens the gap! Look how high the gap is already between several loaded Lexus and base MB models:
Loaded LS430: $66,339
BASE S430: $77,970
Total Difference: $11,631
Loaded GS300: $46,034
BASE E350: $50,770
Total Difference: $4,736
Loaded GS430: $54,724
BASE E500: $58,520
Total Difference: $3,796
S vs LS. LS is often cross-shopped with the E, not solely with the S. You can find examples on these very boards.
The base E500 costs $2295 more than the base LS430. The loaded E500 costs $10,495 more than a loaded LS430. How do you explain that?
SL500 vs SC430. What about the CLK and SLK?
The base CLK500 costs $62,920 and the base SC430 costs $63,575. A loaded CLK500 costs $79,139 and a loaded SC430 costs $65,748. The $600 price difference between the base models is insignificant, but the $15,564 price difference between loaded models is significant.
“The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product.” You forgot to add the qualifier “all else being equal”. Because if there is suitably higher content to go along with a higher price, the higher priced product need not sell in lower units.
Just because MB model X has more “content” than Lexus model Y doesn’t mean that people will opt to pay more for the MB. Some people may not be able to afford the 16,000 price difference between a loaded CLK500 and SC430. Even though they might rather have the MB, the Lexus is a cheaper alternative.
Prestige is valuable, and, other things equal, if one product has more prestige it can command a higher price. PRESTIGE IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER “FEATURE” OF A PRODUCT, such as larger engine, better styling, etc insomuch as people are willing to pay extra for it.
True prestige is valuable. This is partially why MB can sell cars at a higher price than Lexus. MB makes its profits by selling fewer cars for more money. Lexus makes its profits by selling more cars for less money. Which economic strategy is better is irrelevant because we’re only talking about why Lexus sells more cars than MB.
Suppose there is a housing developer who is building new homes on a large tract of land. Suppose that he offers only two models, “m4” which has 4000 sq ft on 1 acre, and “m5” which has 5000 sf on 1.25 acres. You are saying “The greater the price, the less willing consumers are to buy any particular product.” meaning that it is impossible to sell in the same quantities if one is priced higher. I submit that if m5 is priced only slightly higher than m4, say 5%, then it will not only sell more units (directly opposite what you suggest), but it will probably sell MULTIPLE TIMES as many units as m4. Similarly if the developer tries to price too much for the extra content, say 45%, then m4 will outsell m5 by multiple times. If follows that there is a some price premium between 5% and 45% where the two will sell in EQUAL numbers, DESPITE m5 being priced higher. I don’t know if that premium will be 20% or some other number, but the important point is that if a product has higher content, be it size or prestige, it can outsell even a lower-priced product.
I understand your analogy but I don’t believe that it accurately applies to Lexus and MB cars. MB cars don’t just cost “5%” more than Lexus cars. MB frequently costs 10k more than a Lexus and in some instances, MB costs several tens of thousands more than Lexus. The price difference isn’t so small as to invalidate the basic economic principle of the demand curve.
So you can’t use price as an excuse for MB’s US sales performance, because there is an offsetting factor at work: prestige.
Prestige is a positive factor in MB sales; however, price is an extremely negative factor for MB sales in relation to Lexus. I have already shown that Lexus vehicles, on average, cost more no matter how you calculate it. Lexus costs more base vs. base and Lexus costs more loaded vs. loaded.
Also, I don’t have any numbers in front of me at the moment. But I’m fairly certain that the only reason why Lexus outsells MB in the U.S. is because of the RX300/330.
I would imagine a new Bentley Arnage is built better than those older Mercedes. It uses lots of metal just like them.
xkss,
Bentleys are built very heavily but that doesn't always mean solidity. Mercedes were the most sold cars on the road and seem to remember in a few older issues of C&D in which Bentleys had hood shakes and other structural problems. I've seen similar complaints about things moving under the skin of the A8/Phaeton twins too, at least by C&D's reckoning. Weight doesn't always mean solidity. The Honda S2000 is proof of that, lightweight and solid.
M
You are mistaken. No Lexus vehicle offers rear side airbags. Side airbags are different than curtain side airbags in that curtains protect the head and side airbags protect the torso. The LS430 has side curtain airbags for both rows, but it doesn't have rear side airbags. Only the front seats of the LS430 have side airbags to protect the torso, whereas MB and BMW offer these bags for both the front and back seats across their entire model line. Additionally, MB offers standard seat belt ETDs and force limiters for rear seating positions across the entire model line. Lexus only offers these devices on the ES and LS.
I am not sure what emergency telematrics is..I have to ask is that the thing where if you get into a crash or your air bag inflates a 911 call goes out automatically with the location of your car...I have that...Plus an Emergency button that I can Push...It all works through the GPS system
I guess I was partially mistaken. After doing more research I see that "Lexus Link" is available only on the LS 430, SC 430, LX 470 and GX 470. (MB and BMW offer this service on every model).
The Price Barrier is a Testement to Lexus construction Techniques...The fact Mercedes is Overpriced is a Bad thing...for them RIGHT?
I'm not sure why the fact that Lexus vehicles are cheaper is "a testament to lexus construction techniques"; more like a testament to pricing strategy and fewer available options. The fact that MB costs more than Lexus is indeed a bad thing for them because they sell fewer cars.
WHAT IS THIS INNOVATION..That results in 56% lower fatalities?.. Whatever it is I am sure My Lexus has it....Is it Airbags, Seatbelts, Crumple zones, VSC, ABS, ?...What pray tell are you talking about?
I mentioned that ESC (Electronic Stability Control) was a feature that MB pioneerd in 1995, that has resulted in 56% lower single vehicle fatalities and a 41% decrease in all single vehicle crashes. Both MB and BMW had this system in 1995. It took Lexus until 1999 to incorporate this system on the LS430, and even today you still can't get it on the IS300.
Exactly. Syswei is trying to pass off a ridiculous notion that the extra "prestige" of MB alone should mean that MB sells more cars than Lexus. Unfortunately, Prestige is but a small part of the Mercedes allure. People may aspire to own a MB for the prestige, others for safety, but many can't because they cost significantly more than the imitation... err I mean Lexus alternative.
It doesn't matter how you cut it, no amount of prestige is going to change the fact that MB models are out of many peoples' price range.
Oh yes, I need to correct an obvious typo before anyone tries to use it against me. When I said "Lexus costs more base vs. base and Lexus costs more loaded vs. loaded" a few posts back, I meant to post "Lexus costs LESS base. vs. base and Lexus costs LESS loaded vs. loaded."
What can I say? I’m tired.
M
Shoddy engineering? Funny, I've never heard Lexus being accused of that..We all know Japanese electronics are second to none..I only bring up profits to show that Lexus is successful where it counts.
You keep missing the point: Prestige is nice, but it doesn't pay the bills..Profits do!! Hardly ramblings...You still haven't addressed the fact: How is it that Lexus sells for LESS and still makes more profit on the LS430 vs MB on the S430..
Merc is correct to say that MOST consumers of these cars probably don't consider profits..But I doubt they also care who was first to market the airbag or whatever.
" What about the fact that Lexus is perhaps the least safety conscious high end brand as shown by their inability to innovate? What about those facts?"
What facts? Least safety conscious? If so, they would do poorly in ALL safety tests. I looked at those links for the crash results..You pretty much confirmed what I thought..The LS got the highest rating and in fact was recommended for frontal collisions!!!! The RX and GS were marked down to Average in one category..This is hardly a basis to judge a car "unsafe" or "Shoddy engineering.." I noted your link on the rear crash performance. You may have a point there, but here's what they say:
"For each seat/head restraint, rear-end crash protection is an assessment of occupant protection against neck injury in rear impacts at low to moderate speeds. Although such injuries usually aren't serious, they occur frequently"
So basically 90% of the time the LS will hold up as well as the competitors. (In the frontal types of crashes) In the 10% where it may not perform as well the injuries usually aren't serious to begin with...This sounds like a marginal advantage at best...
Why don't you list the countless times Toyota has had bad crash results, and I'll counter with 15 years of JDP superiority and stories of your beloved German marques breaking down. I think we're even there. Why is it that a 1996 LS400 is more reliable than a 2002 7 Series..Now exactly how SAFE is a MB when the Airmatic Suspension quits on you? You're of course going to say this occurs hardly 10% of the time..But so is the case where the MB will outperform the LS..
Now how is it unfair that the S430 is compared to the LS? Using your logic, the S430 should be a fair comparison because it is priced higher. Yet the LS430 still beat it anyway. Someone already pointed out they didn't test the Euro Sport model. I read that comparo recently and said it was like comparing a person on slippery ballerina shoes to normal ones..Even THEY admit it wasn't fair..So what are you going to argue now???
You seem to say best value doesn't mean "best" overall..According to the recent Road and Track, Car and Driver, JDP, CR, and Resale Values, High price doesn't mean BEST either....You still don't explain why Lexus makes more Profit off the LS430 than MB makes off a S Class DESPITE being 15K less!!! You subscribe to the foolish notion that Pricier means better...Did you know a $15 Timex is more reliable and accurate than a 15K Rolex???
Sounds like the high price of the S is due to inefficiency more than price premium..Here's where profits are important: Less profit, less R&D..As far as I've seen it, Toyota has taken on R&D projects where it can profit immensely from. You're completely ignoring the whole business side to this.
Actually Boeing and Airbus differ big time on design. Fly by Wire vs Mechanical Controls is a HUGE issue in the aviation world. (Air Force 1 does not have Fly by Wire, despite it being available at the time) British Airways has insisted the 747 Advanced NOT have Fly by wire. The 747 has triple redunancy on all critical systems whereas the A340 has two. The 747 does have more innovative safety features than the A340, yet this has not stopped airlines from buying the Airbus..You should stop and think whether any corporation is going to open themselves up to lawsuits from a product that is "unsafe" or "poorly engineered"
Given that Lexus commands a high customer loyalty I doubt they'd risk their business by building cars that are unsafe. If they can spend $4 Billion on the original LS400 do you think they'd skimp on $500 electronics?? They've chose to spend their R&D on Award Winning Customer Service, NAV's, Hybrids, superior reliability, and cutting edge electronics whilst building a car that is STILL recommended by the NHTSA and various other agencies for safety..
Do you have any reports of roofs collapsing on an LS car?? How do you explain all those early 1990 LS400's still riding around in such great shape?? Move on already - you'd give your blood for MB if you had to. Posts as long as yours aren't even readable and they'so so pro your favorite brand and putting down the brand you can't handle (roofs collapsing? - that was hillarious) that they can't even begin to be taken seriously. You remind me be one of those that puts a 1 score on an LS430 as a fake owner on MSN autos.
The battle would still rage on. It would be like asking people to agree on the "right" color for a car. Post the Model A period there is no single answer, and it's unproductive to ask people to put aside two of the major discriminating factors between the S and LS and make a hypothetical decision. They don't cost the same or have equal reliability.
As tought in logic class, any If...then... statement is invalid and meaningless as soon as the if part becomes untrue.
"Why don't you list the countless times Toyota has had bad crash results, and I'll counter with 15 years of JDP superiority and stories of your beloved German marques breaking down."
The poster before was talking about safety engineering, and even after the results were posted that showed Lexus did score below Mercedes you still counter with JDP surveys and profits, which don't address the issues presented. Nobody claimed that Mercedes was as reliable or more reliable than a Lexus. I said about 60 posts or so ago that anything technical will be countered with surveys and profit statements, all irrelevent to the points being made by the opposition.
The fact that Mercedes, Volvo and Saab have teams dedicated to recovering and studying their products after they've been wrecked in real-world crashes gives them an advantage that isn't necessarily measureable in standardized crash testing.
Profits were never the issue, nor was reliability, safety was. Now you could link reliability to safety in certain ways sure, but profits have absolutely nothing to do with safety. Saab hasn't ever made any money for GM and Volvo makes very little money and yet they both build some of the safest cars on the road.
M
C&D included a pre-refresh MB S class without the new 7 speed transmission and chose the smallest engine available, the S430, when a more fair comparison would have been the S500.
In what way is it fair to compare a 5.0 liter engined car against a 4.3 liter engined car, when both are available in 4.3 liter versions? Is this an Aryan concept of fairness or something? Maybe it was unfair to test a 4.3 against another 4.3 because the MB lost, when everyone knows that MB is really better and really "should" win?
If down the road a 2006 RX330 loses a comparo to a 2006 ML350, can I just say, "that was unfair, they should have tested the RX400h against the ML350"?
As for the 7-speed tranny, even with it the S430 is notably slower than a 6-spd LS430, 6.9 seconds vs 5.9 sec, 0-60.
I think it is enought to understand that if a car has dependability problems those problems are an indication of quality...Actually lack thereof.
If quality is lacking then problems can occure anywhere..ABS, ESP, Brake Assist or anywhere else.
I think it makes sense to buy quality and not have to worry about where the problem will occure.
But you no doubt would rather roll the dice...we are all different people with different needs and wants.
Real Prestige is having the extra $30 grand and choosing the BEST Car even if it is less expensive..
But we are all different people...You may think that paying more equates to more Prestige.
So we have some area's of agreement...Lexus LS does have Stability Cokntrol (which can be turned on and off, by the way, I am not sure how the mercedes one works) and Telematrics....
I don't think this board is for the make up of the IS it is for high end Luxury Cars..So I will leave that alone.
Mercedes has airbags that come out of the rear seats ...Goodie...Mine only protect your head..but even with your seat belt on you could bump you torso against the door..Hmmmm
Since Lexus is extremely Profitable and Mercedes is hanging on by finger nails and toe nails...and since my LS has generally the same options as the higher end Mercedes.. Maybe Mercedes should take some options out of their car ...to be more competitive...
I can think of All wheel drive (will be in LS in 07)that Mercedes has and the LS doesn't... specifically what other Options would Mercedes have that I am missing out on.
When Lexus goes Hybred in the 07 LS ...Will their having that major feature make Mercedes a second rate car?
Actually I think Lexus costs less Loaded vrs Base.speaking only LS vrs S
The poster before attempts to malign the Lexus name without any proof. The only thing those links indicated was that the Lexus performs MARGINALLY worse in rear end crashes, which the tester admits usually aren't serious.
Now does Marginal=shoddy and unsafe? I don't think so...You'd think the Press would jump all over Lexus if that were true..Having been in an accident with my LS400 I know none of what these ridiculous allegations are true..
The Government results don't show what he's saying. You're talking about a marginal difference here. What I am saying is that if you all want to harp on about innovation, I can harp on about reliability. With the exception of those few sentences, I responded quite directly.
None of you acknowledge that being first in innovation isn't enough to generate profits. Prestige does not equal profits as clearly shown in the MB case. You fail to see the point that no one cares WHO built the thing first.. This is the point you all miss repeatedly.
Despite being 15K cheaper, Lexus makes MORE money on the LS than Mercedes does on the S...What part of that don't you understand? You all seem to think Pricier=Better..Anytime someone attempts to slam Lexus I point at the profits they make. You can't argue with that kind of success..It's like putting down Tom Brady..Oh but wait, he's got Three Super Bowl rings.
My Airbus vs Boeing argument was to illustrate that even though marginal differences in safety features exist, the airlines have not hesitated to fly them, despite the potential liability lawsuits if it was "unsafe.."
The previous poster would have you believe we're comparing a Tank (MB) vs a go-cart (Lexus) When you use words like "Unsafe, and Shoddy engineering" that is what you are implying..In reality it seems to be a marginal difference at best. If it were a real issue, it would show up in all crash tests. It's funny, even the German loving car magazines have NEVER raised this point..The only category where the LS is slammed is dynamics and styling..
Have you read the posts of former BMW owners in the LS forum? They don't think the difference (dynamics) between the 7 series and LS are night and day..You can quote all these pointless performance statistics, but are they indicative of real world use? Of course not! How many people race their high end cars on Tracks? This sort of data is meant for BS sessions and nothing more. Lexus owners love JDP, CR, and resale value stats because they bear the real world aspects of owning the car.
SV
Aha... I couldn't have said it any better than you just did. If the SL is a much better car than the SC, does the higher price of the SL deter its sales ? Nope. See, we do agree....
So let us extrapolate. If the S430/500 are better cars than the LS430, regardless of their higher prices, would they not sell better COMBINED than a single engined Lexus LS430 ? But we all know the reverse is the case, right ? So, it must tell you something about the incredible car the LS430 is. That it can single-handedly BEAT all S-class cars COMBINED in units sold. The LS, whether you'd like to admit it or not, is the most popular, most DESIRED mainstream full-size luxury car money can buy. Its higher sales bears this point out. If the MBs were $20K, $30K better (as currently priced), they should clobber the LS in sales.
So, the sales numbers tell me that S-class cars are overpriced, and their cache brand can no longer support the price premium placed on them.
The real irony of all this is that the high MSRP of S-class (430/500) is due primarily to an inefficient and high-cost MB production system. OTOH, Lexus can price their car right, generate more sales, and make the most profit/unit because they have the world's best production system. It is that simple.
Invalid perhaps, but not meaningless. The point of the question is to narrow down the issues of contention. The fact is, given the hypothetical, and based on past comments, I would think SV, OAC, LJFLX and maybe some others would likely choose the S over a LS if reliability and value were not issues. So the corollary to this is that we probably all agree with MERC1, TIAG_M5, etc. on the S's plusses of driving dynamics, styling, prestige, safety, etc.
So it really comes down to how much weight is given to the LS's reliability and value. For the Lexus aficionados (including me), those factors are so basic to the decision that they outweigh the (slight) positives of the S on the other issues.
Sometimes in the heat of discussion, we lose sight of the obvious. But note that it is rare to see someone argue here that the LS is safer than the S, or has better driving dynamics, or has more prestige. Nor do you see many people saying the S is really more reliable than the LS, or that its electronics are better, or that you get more bang for your buck in the S. That disagreement may be true in comparing the traits of other cars, but not these two. We just disagree about how to weigh the importance of the different factors, not which car possesses which dominant trait.
That's why this battle can never be won, nor can anyone be swayed to one side or the other. We in fact probably all agree on the objective factors, we just disagree on their relative importance.
a lot of great posts!
about 2 years ago there were crash test
photos of the S class on a thread over
at MBworld. i found the thread but the
photos could not be viewed. I've asked
the moderator to repost them so i can post
a link for everyone to view. let me say
this....when you see how MB tested the
S class you will be AMAZED! they use a
wedged shape battering ram. they then slam
it into the side of the car. hopefully
the photos will be reposted soon. i can
say this....if i had to be strapped
into either an LS430 or S Class like a crash test
dummy.....i would without question
be belted into the S.
what i feel has been lost in much of the
discussion considering safety is this....why
doesn't Lexus invest more time and money
in this area? if they want to be the worlds
number one luxury automaker .....wouldn't "safety first"
be the cornerstone of their philosophy? this is
but another reason that Lexus is not on the same level as the German automakers.
Spoken like an attorney....Not that you are one, eh ?
Much more succinct, and as useful, as the recent discussions here. I'll check back in a few months to see if any adults have joined the discussion. (hits UNSUBSCRIBE button)